Legal difference between murder and abortion?

[Fly320s]

Don't make this about your personal views of abortion, please.

In regard to the Jessie Davis abduction and murder, the suspect is being charged with two counts of murder; one for the woman and one for the unborn child.

How does the court system differentiate between abortion and murder of an unborn child?  I'd really like to know how the courts have ruled on these cases previously.  I'm just curious of the legal aspects and logic of the decisions that have been made.

Remember, this thread is for the legal aspects of the court decisions only.  Please, no personal views of abortion.

Thanks.

[wmenorr67]

In abortion I believe it comes down to the fact that the mother chooses to end the pregnancy.  Plus it also depends upon what trimester the pregnancy is in.  If the unborn child would not survive outside the womb usually the courts have not brought charges based on the killing.  However since the mother was due to give birth within a week or so and the child could survive outside the womb that gives latitude to bring the second murder charge.

[Perd Hapley]

Mothers are said to have the right to choose to end their own pregnancies.  No one else is allowed to make the decision.   

[Barbara]

Has to do with the viability of the fetus.

[Chris]

Just to throw in two cents from your friendly Ohio lawyer, Barbara hit the nail on the head.  In Ohio, if one can prove viability for the unborn child, the act of terminating it against the will of the mother constitutes Murder, or Aggravated Murder, or any of the other homicide offenses, depending upon the circumstances.

And, as I tell people all the time, please don't ask me to explain why the law is the way it is.  For that, you need to go to Columbus and ask the geniuses in the legislature.

[Ex-MA Hole]

I'm no legal expert, but I am under the same impression- it is based on voluntary/ involuntary based on the Mother's decision.

[client32]

Can you explain what is meant by viability?

Does that mean "if the child were born today, would it survive?"  Or, baring unforseen acts (car-crash, murder) the unborn child will likely make it through the pregnancy?

Or is more complex than that?

[Chris]

I general terms it means that, absent some unforseen complication, the child would survive if delivered at the time that the "death" occurred.  the way we dealt with it, we would talk to the OB, make sure that there were no complicating circumstances or concerns (in other words, a healthy uncomplicated pregnancy), and ask what the odds of survival were if delivery occurred at that moment. 

Where it gets complicated is the ever increasing technoligical and medical advancements which make viability a lower and lower "age."  My former boss used to set the limit for his purposes as 32 weeks minimum.  I'm sure that an aggressive prosecutor could (and likely will) go lower.

[client32]

Thanks.

I can see where the advancements make this a more difficult issue.  In my non-medical professional opinion, 32 weeks seems like a safe bet.  We have a couple of sets of friends that had children that early and have so far turned out ok.

[Chris]

the thought with that number was to keep the focus of the trial on the act that led to the "death", and not turn it into a debate as to viability.  In the case where the rule was generated, a Domestic situation got completely out of control when a woman told her live-in that the baby she was carrying was not his.  In the process of beating her, he kicked her in the abdomen/stomach until he killed the child.  She was at 35 weeks.  Bad news for him was that DNA testing showed it was his, she was wrong.

[client32]

Yikes.  I now have another reason I don't want to study law.  Cases like that just bother me for so many different reasons.

I'll just stick to the tugboats.

[Chris]

my Criminal Law professor said that in criminal cases, bad facts make bads laws.  As I do this, that turns out to me the truest statement I was taught in law school.  A horrific case makes legislators do stupid things as a knee jerk reaction to prevent it from happening again, and end up making a mess of things.  Of course, I'm not telling you all anything you don't know.  Look how we hold our breaths after every school shooting, mass shooting, waiting for the next legislative nightmare...

[Art Eatman]

My son was born six weeks early.  Wasn't really big enough to keep, but I didn't throw him back and he turned out okay.

Humor aside, I think of "viability" as generally beginning somewhere early in the seventh month.

Art

[roo_ster]

Art:

Good thing he wasn't a game fish, he woulda made yo a scofflaw.

[Bogie]

It's not a human until I can set it down and have a beer with it without feeling the urge to shoot it.
 
Had "a chat" with Jen's daughter's boyfriend today... Suffice it to say that several topics were covered, including my ongoing liking for Jen's daughter's continued health, and a moderate willingness to... (let's see if I remember it correctly, as it was described in pretty graphic detail...) ...if she is is injured, in any way, shape, or form, whether it's directly his fault or not, to take the miscreant, stuff him in a car trunk, drive him into the West Texas desert (only a day away in the car...), whereupon his eyelids will be surgically amputated without anaesthetic, and he'll be staked out above a scorpion nest, whereupon I plan upon cracking an iced-down cooler of my favorite beverage....
 
Not sure quite what the boy thinks of me now... Lots of wide-eyed nodding was going on...
 
I think that the next step is gonna be showing him The Shotgun Shell With His Name Written Upon It.
 

 

[Chris]

Ah, Bogie, isn't it nice to be the one in power?  My son's godmother has a duaghter that just graduated from high school.  She had an on/off relationship with a boy who wasn't really nice to her.  So, during one of the on periods, at a little get together where he appeared, I simply told him how great Holly is, then I leaned in close, reminded him what I did for a living, and that I knew of at least a dozen places where I could put a body that would not be found for decades.  The fact that I was (legally) open carrying at that moment made the point all too clear.

[Hawkmoon]

In regard to the Jessie Davis abduction and murder, the suspect is being charged with two counts of murder; one for the woman and one for the unborn child.

How does the court system differentiate between abortion and murder of an unborn child?  I'd really like to know how the courts have ruled on these cases previously.  I'm just curious of the legal aspects and logic of the decisions that have been made.

In this case, the legal distinction is that Ohio law calls it murder if the unborn fetus is sufficiently developed to be able to survive outside the womb. Jesse Davis was due in about a week or two, so the fetus was sufficiently developed to meet that definition.

Other states have different definitions under their laws.