Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: RevDisk on September 27, 2013, 01:02:03 PM
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I do a fair amount of hiking, often by myself Often in broken, mountainous terrain. For high activity (lotta climbing), I carry a Sig P250 as it's small, lightweight and easy to conceal. I also carry a Sig 226 for when I do a lot of walking. Both in 9mm.
I'm pretty sure it would only really annoy some larger animals here in the Northeast. Mostly, bears. While bears are not extremely much of a concern, I'm essentially screwed if I do run into one. Wild pigs are another mild concern. Feral dogs and coyotes aren't uncommon either.
Thoughts? Rhino in .357 Mag, or should I go larger? I'm fairly comfortable with the 454 or .45-70. Not an insane fan of .44 Mag, usually by the 50th shot, my hands hurt enough that I'm calling it a day. Like most hiking equipment, requirements contradict each other. Needs to be light, strong, reliable and useful for as many purposes as possible. Also, I carry concealed. Usually on hip, but I'm thinking of going to shoulder holsters. There are times when I carry in a small backpack. The theoretical weapon should be comfortable with getting wet, or in contact with mud. I've debated a Draco, for environmental concerns alone.
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I know not everyone likes SA, but my "in the field" handgun is a Ruger Vaquero in .45LC. Very versatile cartridge.
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I know not everyone likes SA, but my "in the field" handgun is a Ruger Vaquero in .45LC. Very versatile cartridge.
This is exactly what I would suggest. You can get em in 357 as well
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For many decades here in the wet part of the PNW, I have carried a short-barrel .357 revolver and have felt it adequate for any two-legged or four-legged threats I may reasonably encounter. I also carry concealed and corrosion-resistance, light weight and packability all enter into my calculus. So I usually end up carrying one of my Ruger stainless .357's. The 3" SP-101 usually gets the nod these days.
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My thought was the .45LC Redhawk. Same thought train as Ben, dependent on your preferred action and form factor.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howdah_pistol
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500 S&W Mag with a 4" barrel. ;)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howdah_pistol
I have actually considered buying one before. It was on sale as Cabelas. I actually really do regret not buying it.
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10mm auto loaded with hardcasts in whatever model floats your boat would be a good choice.
Currently I carry a M&P45c loaded with BB 255gr hardcast out hiking. Not ideal if I bump into an angry grizzly, but serviceable. I'd buy a M&P 10mm in a heartbeat in the unlikely event S&W ever makes one.
I also have a stubby little 2.25" DAO SP-101 that I'm thinking of carrying instead.
Edit: had the barrel length wrong on the SP-101
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I know not everyone likes SA, but my "in the field" handgun is a Ruger Vaquero in .45LC. Very versatile cartridge.
I was about to suggest that. My "Barbeque Gun" is an Old Model Vaquero in .45LC.
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SP-101 in .357 is looking very economical. About $500, with rounds being mostly affordable commercially.
Ruger Vaquero is interesting. Looks like it's offered in .357 and .45 Colt. Probably be a hell of a lot cheaper than .45-70
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41magsnub's suggestion of a .45acp automatic is a reasonable one. I often mimic it, though I carry 230gr LRN hardcast rather than his 255gr hardcast. Same philosophy though.
I've done hikes with an IWB revolver (SP101 3"). It can be done, but I definitely don't like it with a pack large enough to require a hip belt. Aside from slowing the draw considerably, it's uncomfortable. I greatly prefer OWB. I find myself best served with a dropped/offset holster that allows a pack belt to fit between the gun and my hip, but still keeps the pistol on my pistol belt rather than strapped to the pack. Cowboy buscadero rigs can also accomplish this positioning. Automatics ride more comfortably for me, IWB, due to reduced thickness and more spread on the pressure points.
Your environmental concerns should be pushing you more towards a striker fired service automatic of some sort. My default pistol for these things for the last few years has been a Colt LW Commander, but it's probably going to change to an XD45 in the next few months... probably around tax refund time. G20 or G29, G21 or G30, XD45, MP45, something like that. No room for muck to get between the hammer and firing pin, no way for mud and sand to worm its way into the chamber in the event of a streamside tumble, no hammer to get bent if the cocked-n-locked gun falls out of its holster and bounces on a boulder.
I've mentioned WildAlaska's XD45 that he does in .460Rowland if you want more juice than .45acp can deliver. However, I think a well placed hardcast .45acp pushing into the +p territory will handle the same workload that cowpunchers used .45 colt sixguns for, 125 years ago.
Just be aware that going with a Glock will require an aftermarket barrel if you're going to run hardcast pills.
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For non-hunting duties, I really like my S&W 629 4". Compact enough to be out of the way, but powerful enough to deal with any threats on the Eastern half of the US. It can even handle hunting duties if necessary. I consider the 357mag marginal except when using hot loads and heavy hardcast bullets. Unfortunately, those aren't common unless you handload. Most 357mag ammo is oriented toward self defense against humans. I'd only go with the 357mag if you already had one, and then only in a model large enough to handle stout loads. However, even paper punching 44mag ammo is suitable for defense against most anything but large bears. My 629 rides nicely in a good Threepersons-style holster (and Beltman belt).
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg405%2Fallencb%2F6d407e9c-64d4-498d-9bcd-a7bd4d39cad5_zpsb20856b8.jpg&hash=989a854f7726bdd62ac83513037166860eb8ac36)
You're in my region of the US, so you're likely to run into the same "threats" as myself. Besides everyone's favorite boogeyman, the bear, you can also encounter coyote, bobcat, feral dogs (my greatest fear), feral humans, and anecdotally, a cougar (not a drunk 50-something at a Philly bar).
I'm not sure why you mention 45-70 for a handgun. The only handguns in 45-70 are rather large and the recoil can't be any better than a moderate 44mag. ???
A 45colt would be a good compromise. Most factory ammo is pretty sedate, making recoil a non-issue, but in a Ruger, you can run hot stuff that meets or exceeds factory 44mag. A S&W 696 would be another good compromise (5 rounds of 44special in an L-Frame). Good luck finding one though. I had one, but sold it because I liked the 629 better and because I needed the cash.
Chris
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10mm is a nice option. I enjoyed shooting the Glock 29 I rented for my first GHL test in this state. Shoots easier than any revolver with similar power. Kinda thick, but otherwise good for concealment.
A Glock 30 with more powerful recoil & FP springs to suit .45Super would also work. Heck, any concealable pistol (save the tiniest) in .45ACP given the spring treatment to handle .45Super would be decent out east. Nice thing about a GM or Cdr 1911 is that you can get a flap-closure chest/tanker holster to pack it out of the way of your pack straps. Wear a camp shirt over it and go all Superman if you have to draw. Or retrofit said camp shirt with hidden velcro closures. Yes, I did that to one shirt.
When I need absolute concealability that can penetrate a 4-legged critter, I pack my Taurus .357mag snubby. Used to stoke it with .357mag hunting rounds, now with Buffalo Bore .38spl & .38spl+P. BB hard cast wadcutters penetrate like crazy and cut a .357" hole. They have a LSWC .38spl stoked up to 1200fps that would be even more penatrative.
I have a 629 like mtnbkr and it is sweet, indeed. I have a Galco Miami Classic shoulder holster and a custom OWB holster for it. Don't need nuclear loads most parts to go through a critter. Again, Buffalo Bore has some sweet loads and many others have produced a variety of loads.
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Lightweight needs consideration. My typical walk around gun is my Glock 17, I make up for bore size with capacity. Not light when I toss a few 30rd mags in the bag but I have a reason. All the national forest around me is cool with handguns, no long guns unless you're legally hunting. So, carry a lot of bit handgun.
My lightweight hiking gun has always been a 325 S&W. Lightweight, .45ACP and moonclips mean minimal logistics for a few reloads.
Dunno, I'm not the least bit concerned about bears, but the feral dogs and humans have my attention. Too many secret pot patches, meth labs, or just plain weird people loose in the wild.
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How big are your hands? I can't hold an N frame smith very well. A G 20 is better. An L frame smith fits me fine... a 686+ gives 7 rounds of 357, Federal makes a 357 180gn hardcast load.
The big bore single actions seem to have a better grip for small hands than their double action cousins.
Have you seen the Freedom arms 5 shot SA? .44spc.
no matter how much power, it won't matter if you can't shoot it well or don't bring it with you.
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Too many secret pot patches, meth labs, or just plain weird people loose in the wild.
Unintended Consequences, page 263.
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For God's sake, stay away from that Rhino.
The lockwork has a bazillion parts, and is very complex.
That has to be just nasty for reliability, and a nightmare for trigger pull improvement.
Increased friction is not your friend.
I agree with a 4" .44 mag, either S&W or Redhawk.
I never feel under-gunned with my 5" .44 Redhawk.
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Another vote for a 29/629/Ruger SRH.
Ruger Alaskan if you want something more compact. They are making them in the .480 again- if you reload >:D
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Another vote for a 29/629/Ruger SRH.
Ruger Alaskan if you want something more compact. They are making them in the .480 again- if you reload >:D
Yep!
If I was looking for a willy wilderness carry gun, I'd probably get a .44mag or a hot .45colt.
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How big are your hands? I can't hold an N frame smith very well. A G 20 is better. An L frame smith fits me fine... a 686+ gives 7 rounds of 357, Federal makes a 357 180gn hardcast load.
The big bore single actions seem to have a better grip for small hands than their double action cousins.
Have you seen the Freedom arms 5 shot SA? .44spc.
no matter how much power, it won't matter if you can't shoot it well or don't bring it with you.
A RB N-frame can have grips smaller than a SB K-frame.
I have smallish hands (between Medium and Large in men's glove sizes). I don't have problems with N-frames. My Redhawk, on the other hand, was a different story. It took ages to find a good grip that didn't put your hand too low (Hogue, I'm talking to you!). I ended up with a Nill grip found inexpensively (for Nill) on Ebay.
The Federal 180gr Castcore load is a good one, but kind of hard to find at times. Almost as expensive for 20 of those as 50 "Winchester White Box 44mags cost, and still not as potent, though the recoil isn't bad at all out of a GP100.
Chris
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I was about to suggest that. My "Barbeque Gun" is an Old Model Vaquero in .45LC.
Huh. I didn't know there was a "new" model Vaquero until I just took a peek at the Ruger and Gunbroker websites. My old model Vaquero was apparently a good investment, judging by current prices. :)
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I'd get a new model Vaquero (the SAA-sized one) in .45 Colt, and stoke it with hot handloads but keep 'em under 20000 psi. I have a Blackhawk-Bisley in .45 Colt and I sometimes load it up around 25k or 26k psi, but it's more fun to shoot if I back it down just a little from there -- like 230 to 250 grain lead bullets with 7.5 grains of Red Dot. The New Vaq is lighter, so more felt recoil.
Plain ol' lead 255's with full charges of blackpowder will shoot thru a buffalo. Not sure how much more you need than that, and the hotter you load it the slower your follow-up will be.
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Sounds like .44 mag and a 4 inch barrel is what people are recommending. Crap. I hate shooting .44 mag, and I'm not sure how comfy I'd be until I put at least 1k rounds through a platform. A shame the SP-101 doesn't come in that caliber, because I like the design. I want small (ish) and concealable. Weight isn't a huge deal, because more weight will help with recoil. And I hate .44 mag recoil. Very sharp. Maybe I'm a wuss, but more than a handful of rounds is unpleasant.
Any advantage of .45 Colt?
I don't reload yet, but will "real soon now". I prefer relatively easy to find commercially rounds. Also, if the round is even semi common in lever guns, so much the better.
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If you are set on .44 magnum, you could go with a Ruger Redhawk which is more or less a scaled up SP-101.
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Any advantage of .45 Colt?
Yeah, it makes a bigger hole (.452 vs .429 is a bigger difference than it sounds like) Also the guns are a little lighter and better balanced. And you get the "romance" of the big old cartridge.
But other cartridges have advantages too. You probably *dont* want a .45 Colt if you get a double-action revolver (the rims are too small and the ejector star can slip past.)
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Remember that you can shoot .44special in the .44 mag.
I can shoot my 5" .44 Redhawk all day with 230 grain JHPs with no problem.
Try renting and shooting one at a local range with different bury weights.
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I meant bullet weights!
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Smith 329PD. Insanely light for such a big-bore thumper. Great carry piece for hiking in Large Dangerous Critter territories.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_765591_-1_757767_757751_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
Brad
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Just thinking about shooting that makes me flinch
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Just thinking about shooting that makes me flinch
Might be tolerable with hot specials. Then again, I'm not fond of .357 out of a steel J-frame either...
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My every day house/woods carry is a .357 Blackhawk. I just haven't seen the need for anything bigger and the ammo is cheaper and fits several guns now. I have a .45 "old" Vaquero for going up into the western mountains which we rarely do. It's a pussycat with standard loads but I have some "bear loads" for mountain carry.
I just don't get the recoil thing with .44 mag ??? I've shot a few .44 Blackhawks and there's a lot of twist and rise, but - so....? Only thing that ever hurt was some insane .45 loads out of a friend's Bisley Vaquero: the back of the trigger guard kept smacking my 2nd finger =(
I prefer single action over double action, but it's just a matter of preference. A good holster is probably more important. I prefer a "low ride" (but not dropped) for open carry: the tip of the hammer about even with the top of the belt.
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Just thinking about shooting that makes me flinch
I think it has enough grip to avoid the pain issues. It'll just have a lot of muzzle rise.
I wouldn't carry that defensively until I could do DA controlled pairs though.
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I sold my inherited .41 mag N frame with the super short barrel because of muzzle flip. All I was accomplishing with that was teaching myself to flinch. If it had a longer barrel it would have been better.
For a long time I carried my 4" .357 Security Six in the woods and would do it again in a heartbeat if I didn't have other options.
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Heads up on a good 9mm woods load:
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=225 (https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=225)
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For a long time I carried my 4" .357 Security Six in the woods and would do it again in a heartbeat if I didn't have other options.
^^^^ What I used to carry. =)
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For a long time I carried my 4" .357 Security Six in the woods and would do it again in a heartbeat if I didn't have other options.
That's my usual Sunday-go-to-meetin' gun, with .38 Specials. For a walk in the woods I would use .357's.
But I thought we were talking about an excuse to buy a new 40-something. :D
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I do a fair amount of hiking, often by myself Often in broken, mountainous terrain. For high activity (lotta climbing), I carry a Sig P250 as it's small, lightweight and easy to conceal. I also carry a Sig 226 for when I do a lot of walking. Both in 9mm.
I'm pretty sure it would only really annoy some larger animals here in the Northeast. Mostly, bears. While bears are not extremely much of a concern, I'm essentially screwed if I do run into one. Wild pigs are another mild concern. Feral dogs and coyotes aren't uncommon either.
Thoughts? Rhino in .357 Mag, or should I go larger? I'm fairly comfortable with the 454 or .45-70. Not an insane fan of .44 Mag, usually by the 50th shot, my hands hurt enough that I'm calling it a day.
So? For your uses, you won't be shooting 50 shots in one session.
Like most hiking equipment, requirements contradict each other. Needs to be light, strong, reliable and useful for as many purposes as possible. Also, I carry concealed. Usually on hip, but I'm thinking of going to shoulder holsters. There are times when I carry in a small backpack. The theoretical weapon should be comfortable with getting wet, or in contact with mud.
So, "automatic" instead of revolver? .45 (or 10mm?).
I think I would still be looking at a big bore SA revolver. You're not going to be shooting high volume.
I've debated a Draco, for environmental concerns alone.
Kind of a clunky handgun, if you ask me.
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I'd say .357 mag is going to be plenty and there's no reason to go bigger unless you just plain want to. .44 mag is nice but there's not a single thing in your neck of the woods that I can think of that it'll handle that .357 wont make just as dead, particularly at stumbled across/defensive range. If you were talking handgun hunting where you want some more range, that might be a different story. But we're talking "OH $^&#!!!!!" change your drawers after you live through this range.
Other option, as mentioned, is 10mm if you prefer the auto loader (which I personally do). Packs plenty of power and has all the usual semi-auto vs revolver advantages. The Glock option will shoot lead fine, just not for a lot of rounds before it needs a good cleaning. Or there's always aftermarket barrels with standard rifling.
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For a long time I carried my 4" .357 Security Six in the woods and would do it again in a heartbeat if I didn't have other options.
It's what I carry. Load it with some hot .357s and you're good to go in non-griz areas IMHO.
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I still think the .44 is gonna be overkill for what you want to do.
You don't seem like the handgun hunting type, Rev. Nor much of a revolver aficionado. And it seems you don't want that kind of recoil energy, either.
The number I've always seen floated, is 40-200-1000. .40 caliber or larger, 200 grain projectile or heavier, at 1000fps or faster. That's what it takes for reasonable woods defense from anything other than North American super-predators like griz and polar bears, or giant prey like moose or pigzilla. You have neither of those in Pennsylvania, just regular black bears.
.357 magnum is borderline acceptable in 158 and 180gr offerings due to incredibly high sectional density and velocity well in excess of 1000fps. But most of this starts with 10mm, and concludes with .41mag/.44sp/.44mag/.45acp/.45colt/.45super/.460rowland/.454/.480/.475 and so on.
You can fit in these three numbers very easily with a plain-jane .45acp service pistol. But if you want to play with a novel new bearkiller platform, go for it.
I've got hundreds and hundreds of miles on my boots though, starting with a .44 on my hip and bringing that down to a .357 for awhile, then a .400corbon and ultimately to a .45acp with half the platform weight. I've only had to draw for defense once, for a snake I killed before my dog got to it, and I'm glad I had a trigger that was similar enough to my usual daily defense gun that the shots were true (rather than suddenly changing to a DA trigger pull for a defensive situation when I typically carry and train with an SA trigger most of the time).
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Sounds like .44 mag and a 4 inch barrel is what people are recommending. Crap. I hate shooting .44 mag, and I'm not sure how comfy I'd be until I put at least 1k rounds through a platform. A shame the SP-101 doesn't come in that caliber, because I like the design. I want small (ish) and concealable. Weight isn't a huge deal, because more weight will help with recoil. And I hate .44 mag recoil. Very sharp. Maybe I'm a wuss, but more than a handful of rounds is unpleasant.
Any advantage of .45 Colt?
I don't reload yet, but will "real soon now". I prefer relatively easy to find commercially rounds. Also, if the round is even semi common in lever guns, so much the better.
You mentioned you were comfortable with a 454, 44mag has les energy. Did you shoot a .44 mag in an ultralight revolver? I own a 454 Casull in a Ruger SRH and a 44 mag in a Ruger Redhawk is a pussy cat compared to that fire breathing SOB.
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Sounds like .44 mag and a 4 inch barrel is what people are recommending. Crap. I hate shooting .44 mag, and I'm not sure how comfy I'd be until I put at least 1k rounds through a platform. A shame the SP-101 doesn't come in that caliber, because I like the design. I want small (ish) and concealable. Weight isn't a huge deal, because more weight will help with recoil. And I hate .44 mag recoil. Very sharp. Maybe I'm a wuss, but more than a handful of rounds is unpleasant.
Any advantage of .45 Colt?
I don't reload yet, but will "real soon now". I prefer relatively easy to find commercially rounds. Also, if the round is even semi common in lever guns, so much the better.
You can reduce a lot of the sting by handloading 240gr LSWC at ~1000fps. I like Trail Boss for that. Such a load will penetrate anything you will see in your neck of the woods. That was also my carry ammo for my 4" SW629. Looking at Buffalo Bore, they now produce a similar .44spl load with a 255gr pill and a full-wadcutter with a 200gr pill. Might have to switch from my handloads for social carry.
Here are some hefty .44spl loads:
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=99
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=88
Also, be sure to try different grips. Took me 3 tries: Target, Houge squishy, then skinny factories with Tyler T-grip (the winner for me).
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SP-101 in .357 is looking very economical. About $500, with rounds being mostly affordable commercially.
Ruger Vaquero is interesting. Looks like it's offered in .357 and .45 Colt. Probably be a hell of a lot cheaper than .45-70
You probably won't be running into any grizzleys in the northeast, only black bears. .357 Magnum is enough for black bears, and certainly for coyotes, feral dogs, and pretty much anything else you're likely to meet up with. Ditto for .45 Colt and .44 magnum. If it takes 50 rounds of .44 magnum before your hand and wrist give up ... no problem. Any critter that needs 50 rounds of .44 magnum to put down will have eaten you long before you can reload that puny six shooter 8 times.
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Although it is still a botique round, .327M can give ballistics close enough to the .357M with only about 3/4 of the weight.
No annecdotal info that I'm aware of on bears, but it seems to be reported good enough on the rest of the game list mentioned.
Just be sure to buy it by the caseload - sometimes it just is not that well stocked.
stay safe.
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The theoretical weapon should be comfortable with getting wet, or in contact with mud. I've debated a Draco, for environmental concerns alone.
Al right, y'all. Revolvers aren't as good as autopistols* for resisting mud. Will a good flap holster provide enough protection for what he wants?
*yet another synonym to argue over.
Feral dogs and coyotes aren't uncommon either.
How many dogs to deal with at once? A possible argument against a revolver.
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of all the wild beasts here in the catckills, the coyotes are the ones that raise my neck hair. when out cutting wood we will occasionally see them on the fringes, as if waiting for the right moment.
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Speaking of pondering...I'm pondering selling my S&W 625 that has been converted to .460 Rowland. It has the advantage of a wide power range and super fast reloads. I also have two barrels for it (3 and 5 inch) and a good cross draw holster.
I love the gun...but got too many things going on these days to even get it out of the safe. And need to raise some cash. It wouldn't be one of your cheaper options though. Drop me a note if interested.
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Al right, y'all. Revolvers aren't as good as autopistols* for resisting mud. Will a good flap holster provide enough protection for what he wants?
*yet another synonym to argue over.
How many dogs to deal with at once? A possible argument against a revolver.
Butbutbut its impossible for a semiauto pistol to be a woods gun! Everybody knows the revolver is the only way to go for a woods gun...you are just spouting crazy talk by not suggesting a revolver...
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Butbutbut its impossible for a semiauto pistol to be a woods gun! Everybody knows the revolver is the only way to go for a woods gun...you are just spouting crazy talk by not suggesting a revolver...
Field strip my glock 17. Ok, done.
Dropped my S&W 325 in sand and saltwater. 2 hours later in the bathroom sink I had it apart enough for me, cleaned and put back together.
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of all the wild beasts here in the catckills, the coyotes are the ones that raise my neck hair. when out cutting wood we will occasionally see them on the fringes, as if waiting for the right moment.
My experiences with coyotes if you saw one when not hunting them they were usually running the other way from you like their ass was on fire. Coydogs and feral dogs come towards you but quick sudden movements from you usually sends them in the opposite direction with the same response that coyotes make.
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Field strip my glock 17. Ok, done.
Dropped my S&W 325 in sand and saltwater. 2 hours later in the bathroom sink I had it apart enough for me, cleaned and put back together.
Exactly.
BTW, is this a "what gun do I buy next" thread?
Speaking of pondering...I'm pondering selling my S&W 625 that has been converted to .460 Rowland. It has the advantage of a wide power range and super fast reloads. I also have two barrels for it (3 and 5 inch) and a good cross draw holster.
"I'll give you fifty bucks for it." ;/ (My standard lowball offer. Someday I'll get lucky.)
Two barrels? How do you manage a barrel swap? I assume this is not something like the Dan Wesson system.
My abortive trade deal a few weeks back with the goofy guy off armslist left me with some desire for a bigger bore revolver. So, we'll trundle off to the Pec gunshow in an hour or so, and I'll take my Firestar+cash and see if anyone has anything they can be snookered out of.
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Speaking of pondering...I'm pondering selling my S&W 625 that has been converted to .460 Rowland. It has the advantage of a wide power range and super fast reloads. I also have two barrels for it (3 and 5 inch) and a good cross draw holster.
I love the gun...but got too many things going on these days to even get it out of the safe. And need to raise some cash. It wouldn't be one of your cheaper options though. Drop me a note if interested.
You are a bad, bad man to tempt me so. I shoot N-frames better than any other revolvers.
I assume .460R with moon clips? So it is good-to-go for .45GAP, .45ACP, .45Super, ,45Winmag, and .460R all with moon clips? And with .45autorim without?
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Yep.
To be honest, I don't know if I can part with this gun...just pondering for now. Something's gotta go though. They're all my favorites...I'm sure you've been there.
I bought it with the 3" installed and an extra 5". Had Clark Custom do the cylinder conversion.
Here's the only bad. Someone recommended a local smith to swap the barrels for me. I wanted the 5" for deer hunting (which I never did). I also asked him to switch the sights -I wanted the orange sights on the longer barrel. He turned out to be a bad smith (I'll be nice). When I picked up the gun, he handed me the gun and said, "here's your toy"...as he laid his own pistol on the counter in front of him. The gun had slipped from his vise and there were (are) two scratch marks on the 5" barrel. I decided not to get in a gun fight over it, so I paid him for part of the work (which he did well) and left. I was able to buff them out to a degree...but they're still visible. It pisses me off to this day. I was going to send it in to S&W, but never got around to it. Other than that, it looks and runs like new. Only put about 20-30 rounds of .460 through it...if that.
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My experiences with coyotes if you saw one when not hunting them they were usually running the other way from you like their ass was on fire. Coydogs and feral dogs come towards you but quick sudden movements from you usually sends them in the opposite direction with the same response that coyotes make.
Yeah, except for the ones that killed that young lady up in Canada a few years ago =(
Nothing wrong with a semi-automatic pistol for woods carry unless you need something in the .44 magnum range. Honestly, though I think a .357 is plenty for eastern woods/mountains, if you already have a bunch of pistols and are going to get a revolver, why not go with a dot four-something caliber?
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I don't know Rev, I still picture you with that 500. It just fits. I know, probably too much iron to haul around. The lightweight .44 is a nice choice. Rumor has it the recoil is something like, "a fresh mountain breeze" or similar type words. Gothatassesmentfromwildalaskaawhileback
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If you want to stick with revolvers, go with a J-frame .357 like the SP-101 or a S&W 60. A Charter Arms in .44SPL or .40S&W would also be a good choice.
If you don't mind autoloaders, any .40S&W or .45ACP will do.
Main thing will be bullet selection. I'd go with a solid bullet (FMJ or HC) over a hollowpoint. Penetration is key with large animals. And it doesn't do too bad on two-legged critters, either.
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The coyotes are watching you...
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I don't know Rev, I still picture you with that 500. It just fits. I know, probably too much iron to haul around. The lightweight .44 is a nice choice. Rumor has it the recoil is something like, "a fresh mountain breeze" or similar type words. Gothatassesmentfromwildalaskaawhileback
I remember there was a group buy for John Ross .500s on Castboolits a few years back. I remember Mr. Ross discussing a Wadcutter bullet he designed for the revolver with a lighter easy to manage load -'alley cleaner' or something like that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ross/Performance_Center_5%22_.500_S%26W_Magnum
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Late to the party but for the Northeast caliber is less important than bullet selection. You guys just don't have anything thick skinned and heavy boned enough to worry about a "real" big bore. I've always heard a properly set up .45 ACP or .357 is enough for all but grizzly defense in the lower 48.
Just use a heavy for caliber hardcast bullet out of the platform you are most comfortable with and you can probably call it good.
Buffalo Bore has an option in everything from .38 Spc / 9mm on up.
We have a couple dozen resident brown bears ands hundreds each black bears and moose inside the city limits in Anchorage and I still stick with my LW Cmdr for daily carry unless I'm going on one of the streamside trails or hiking up in the hills during the salmon run (.460 Rowland on a SA 1911 in a Bianchi X15 to be discrete, the chest rig is for real hiking/camping).
Other than that, I carry a mag of BB 45+P hardcast to put in for unplanned "woodsy" dog walks and the like and call it good.
edit to add - you can get the .460 additional upper on the 1911, XD, M&P, and Glock .45s. It's a nice, easy shooting option for folks who don't want to invest in a whole new platform.
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"Discrete" in Alaska ???
Things have changed since I was there.
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Another option might be an autoloader chambered in .357 Sig.
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Glock 20 is the ideal woods gun unless you're in serious grizzly territory, if you ask me. The Glock 20 is entirely controllable, more pleasant to shoot than a .44 magnum by far, and I think it's the perfect balance of repeatable rapid shot placement and high kinetic energy performance. 15 rounds of serious, deep penetrating stopping power in a reliable package that goes bang every time. Performs the functions of a modern defensive duty pistol and a woods protection gun equally well.
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"Discrete" in Alaska ???
Things have changed since I was there.
These are the bike trails in Anchorage and the path to Flattop I'm talking about not "the woods."
The compensator makes the gun a bit long for my muscle-memory drawstroke from my belt rigs. The shoulder rig is less obvious than the chest rig and no slower. There is no downside to -not- scaring the soccer moms if there is no cost to the carrier in speed, accuracy, or comfort.
In my opinion it falls in line with not being a dick about carry.
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IMO, one of the benefits of a 44mag over 357 is the commonly available ammo is more suitable for woodland use. Most of what you find is 357mag "on the shelf" is designed for self-defense against humans, where the 44mag's commonly available stuff may not be up to the full potential of the cartridge, but will easily handle anything in the Mid-Atlantic region. To me, it's like buying a truck. You *can* get a truck rated to tow 5k lbs and use it to tow 4500lbs, but you're safer buying one that can tow 10k pounds. While you'll never use the full capacity, you're well within its performance limits.
As for revolver vs semi, I like running my first shot as snakeshot during warm months. That's a bit trickier with a semi, assuming the snakeshot is even available for that chambering.
If I were to get a semi, it would probably be a 10mm though.
Chris
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Another option might be an autoloader chambered in .357 Sig.
Disagree.
I tried this with .400 corbon, a similar bottleneck automatic cartridge.
There isn't enough case mouth and case length to hold onto high sectional density bullets.
I'd rather have a .38 super than a .357sig. And a .357 magnum over either of them. And a 10mm over that.
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What is the deal with snake shot? if a snake is close enough to pose a threat, and you even see it,would not stepping out of the way be quicker? And if it is not, why shoot it?
Just curious.
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Stepping away isn't always an option. Happened to a buddy of mine.
You can use it for other stuff as well, such as vermin where you don't want to sling lead, etc.
Chris
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What is the deal with snake shot? if a snake is close enough to pose a threat, and you even see it,would not stepping out of the way be quicker? And if it is not, why shoot it?
Just curious.
I don't believe in "snake shot." I believe in aiming.
The only defensive shot I've ever fired in the woods was against a snake. My dog was off leash and about 25 yards ahead of me, and we both heard a rattlesnake's rattle. He takes off towards it like a mongoose, and the snake is between me and him. I drew and hip-shot twice while extending, then shot twice more once I had a good aim.
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That's two in the neck about six inches down from the head, and then the two in the head (yes, that's two... not one) were when I took closer aim.
My dog would have been bit had I not done that. Being 5 miles from the truck at this point, plus another 10 miles off road, and another 20 miles of paved travel from the nearest vet, he probably would have died.
I practice defensive snake shooting though, by throwing a can or empty cartridge box and drawing/shooting on the bounce.
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In the past, Bass Pro Shops sold Remington 180 grain 357 loads. Of course, it is Remington so you can probably find someting better. I like the Glock 20 idea. Seems like a lighter and higher capacity option for most circumstances.
I would also recommend a good walking stick which might help you keep an attacking animal at by while you draw. They are also useful for knocking spider webs out of the way. It can be a good weapon that doesn't look like a weapon.
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Exactly.
BTW, is this a "what gun do I buy next" thread?
No, not exactly. I have little practical experience with large bore handguns and wildlife. I'm not a pistol hunter, and near all of my weapons are selected for their optimal usage against humans. This is wildly outside my expertise. I can apply what I know about using force against humans and apply that to nature, but I suspect it may be inaccurate.
Apparently a .357 may or maybe be adequate. A .44 mag with specialized loading seems to be aimed at reducing reload. There was the odd cheer for the 10mm, which catches my interest. I got a lot of information, now I have to sort it out into more useable form as there was no real consensus. Which makes me feel better for asking, as it is apparently not straightforward at all if each and every person has a widely variable answer.
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No, not exactly. I have little practical experience with large bore handguns and wildlife. I'm not a pistol hunter, and near all of my weapons are selected for their optimal usage against humans. This is wildly outside my expertise. I can apply what I know about using force against humans and apply that to nature, but I suspect it may be inaccurate.
Apparently a .357 may or maybe be adequate. A .44 mag with specialized loading seems to be aimed at reducing reload. There was the odd cheer for the 10mm, which catches my interest. I got a lot of information, now I have to sort it out into more useable form as there was no real consensus. Which makes me feel better for asking, as it is apparently not straightforward at all if each and every person has a widely variable answer.
Speaking of handgun hunting, I hunt with a handgun and many of my friends also do. From their experiences they have deemed .41 mag or 10mm as the smallest caliber for deer hunting. Many of them started out with a .357 magnum and found it be not adequate to cleanly kill a 135lb or bigger whitetail deer. I have seen deer shot with a .357 and with a .44 mag and the .44 mag will definitely put the hurt on them vs the .357. Just look at the muzzle energy from a .357 vs .44 mags out of a 4-5" revolver.
I haven't actually shot a deer first with a handgun but I finished a few off with 10mm mag (obscure awesome round that I used to own).
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Don't forget about .44 Special -- you don't *have* to shoot magnums.
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Don't forget about .44 Special -- you don't *have* to shoot magnums.
+1.
Diameter, bullet construction, crushing power. And "just enough" velocity.
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Apparently a .357 may or maybe be adequate.
With a 4" 357 and some Cor-Bon (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/485587/cor-bon-hunter-ammunition-357-magnum-200-grain-hard-cast-lead-flat-nose-box-of-20) you're good anywhere this side of Grizzly/Moose country
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There's also the difference between "handgun hunting" range and "sefld defense" range.
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I drew and hip-shot twice while extending
They teach that at Appleseed, Pardner?
Ditto on the .44 Special. Magnums are cool, but not always necessary.
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As Tam pointed out recently in a blog response, the .357 Mag, .41 Mag, .44 Spl, and .44 Mag will all shoot through a bison with the proper loads, the question to be answered is what do you shoot well and want to carry?
To that list for auto's I'd add the 10mm and hot .45 (+P/Super) for anything short of grizzlies, and .45 WinMag and .460 Rowland for the big bears.
Note we're talking about defensive loads, not hunting or people loads, when we start talking about bear defense in particular.
You can -hunt- a relaxed anything with a nice broadside shot and time to aim with most expanding rounds in a whole bunch of calibers, but you wouldn't want to try to stop a charge with the same bullet in the same caliber. Going with something "off-the-shelf" is probably not the best choice.
Based on the experience and knowledge of people I trust up here anyway, for stuff only going a couple hundred pounds or so and thin-skinned I think you can easily over-think the problem.
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With a 4" 357 and some Cor-Bon (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/485587/cor-bon-hunter-ammunition-357-magnum-200-grain-hard-cast-lead-flat-nose-box-of-20) you're good anywhere this side of Grizzly/Moose country
This is actually what I was originally thinking. Wasn't sure if I was right. Well, not that specific brand of Cor-Bon.
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They teach that at Appleseed, Pardner?
Ditto on the .44 Special. Magnums are cool, but not always necessary.
Strange enough, Appleseed seems to be talking about getting into handgun stuff. I'm not keen on the idea. Enough muzzle discipline problems already with rifles. I'll teach friends in very small 1:1 settings, but I don't want anything to do with a 1:5 ratio class and handguns.
I have to admit that set of hits on that snake was a combination of plain old stoopid luck, some training (this was at the peak of all my Tuesday Night Steel match attendance), and God taking pity on my dog.
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They teach that at Appleseed, Pardner?
Ditto on the .44 Special. Magnums are cool, but not always necessary.
.44 special and .40 S&W are pretty comparable in terms of energy.
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There isn't much in this world a .357 mag won't take down. As an upside, you practice with .38's and if you're in snake country you can index a snakeshot into the first shot.
I bought a Ruger GP100 slick just for this purpose. Backcountry duty, center console duty etc. It's a GP100 3" with bobbed hammer and fixed sights.
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There isn't much in this world a .357 mag won't take down. As an upside, you practice with .38's and if you're in snake country you can index a snakeshot into the first shot.
I bought a Ruger GP100 slick just for this purpose. Backcountry duty, center console duty etc. It's a GP100 3" with bobbed hammer and fixed sights.
Maybe the old school pre lawyer hand load recipes for the .357 magnum. I shot a wounded flopping doe whitetail deer in the head with a .357 magnum to kill it and my 180g XTP 1100fps hand loads didn't exit, it did blow all the brain matter and the top of the skull in a nice little circle around the deer's head.
I'm not sure I'd want to take on a pissed off momma black bear with cubs with a .357 magnum.
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If you'd run it up to 1300 fps, it would penetrate even less. ;) A JSP or a heavy cast lead bullet would be a better choice.
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If you'd run it up to 1300 fps, it would penetrate even less. ;) A JSP or a heavy cast lead bullet would be a better choice.
I know but I ran out of case capacity with H110 to get more powder for speed. :)
Actually XTP bullets have pretty good penetration, not as good as a hard cast, but not bad. The bullet was stopped by the thick process on the back on the skull. I should have taken pictures. My 10mm mag with XTP bullets punched through the skull like butter, took out vertebrate. 200g at ~1350. I haven't gotten the chance to shoot a deer with my 454 yet, but I just acquired permission to hunt a really hot spot for deer for Iowa gun season, so I should be able to find out what it does. In a year or two I'll be able to report what the 454 does to a black bear when I finally draw a tag.
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Dang it, now I've got an itch to play with H110 and something in a 180gr hollowpoint.
Who has the deepest, nastiest flying ashtray out there in 180gr? I want to blow the ever living frak out of some milk jugs, and breathe fire into the air. Jacketed and can handle 1800-2000fps.
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Have you got a 357 Redhawk? I wouldn't try that with anything less.
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When I had a 4" GP100, I was slinging 180gr XTPs at 1300fps.
I'm noticing something odd in threads like this.
When a person asks for a gun recommendation for protection against humans, that person is counseled to get something larger. A 5-shot 38special is no good. Get a high capacity 9mm, a 40, or a 45. Meth addled bikers ya know. But, when the discussion turns to wilderness carry, the recommendations take the opposite path. Now you need a smaller, lower powered gun. Don't get that 44, get the 358 or even 38. Then someone will chime in about their 32H&RMag or 22lr. Comparisons will be made to the relative likelihood of being attacked by animals, etc. It seems more "logic" is applied to wilderness carry than "in town" carry.
Why?
Even a meth addled biker knows what a gun will do or will react when being shot. Some measure of a gun's effectiveness is the human mind's reaction to "zomg! I've been shot!". Wild animals? Not so much. Their reaction is more like "Owie! Something hurts. I'm gonna fsck up that hairless ape over there!"
Then there is the recommendation for boutique or uncommon loads for the "smaller" caliber vs common, just-as-effective, off-the-shelf options for the bigger caliber.
You can spend $30 for 20-rnds of this hard to find (except via mail order or well stocked gun shops) ammo for the smaller gun, or $30 for 50-rnd boxes of WWB 44mag at Walmart.
Personally, I carry a 5-shot 38special "in town" because I know I'm unlikely to need it, but I have to keep it concealed. When I'm in the woods, I tote a 44mag because if I need it, I can't rely on the sight of it to cause my attacker pause, nor will the attacker have a response to being shot unless the shot is incapacitating. I need to stop the threat right.effing.now. Concealment isn't a requirement.
I dunno, just something I noticed.
Chris
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Chris: I tend to notice the same thing. Usually, I ask what the person already has & lean more toward optimizing their ammo selection. You can use a 9mm for bear defense, but you should use heavy FMJ to do it.....just as with every other caliber you could carry. In most cases, there's no need to run out & buy another gun....unless you just really want another gun.
Another thing I advise is that any load that will work on bear/cougar/chupacabra/etc. will tend to work on humans just fine....no need to switch loads.
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When I had a 4" GP100, I was slinging 180gr XTPs at 1300fps.
I'm noticing something odd in threads like this.
When a person asks for a gun recommendation for protection against humans, that person is counseled to get something larger. A 5-shot 38special is no good. Get a high capacity 9mm, a 40, or a 45. Meth addled bikers ya know. But, when the discussion turns to wilderness carry, the recommendations take the opposite path. Now you need a smaller, lower powered gun. Don't get that 44, get the 358 or even 38. Then someone will chime in about their 32H&RMag or 22lr. Comparisons will be made to the relative likelihood of being attacked by animals, etc. It seems more "logic" is applied to wilderness carry than "in town" carry.
Why?
Even a meth addled biker knows what a gun will do or will react when being shot. Some measure of a gun's effectiveness is the human mind's reaction to "zomg! I've been shot!". Wild animals? Not so much. Their reaction is more like "Owie! Something hurts. I'm gonna fsck up that hairless ape over there!"
Then there is the recommendation for boutique or uncommon loads for the "smaller" caliber vs common, just-as-effective, off-the-shelf options for the bigger caliber.
You can spend $30 for 20-rnds of this hard to find (except via mail order or well stocked gun shops) ammo for the smaller gun, or $30 for 50-rnd boxes of WWB 44mag at Walmart.
Personally, I carry a 5-shot 38special "in town" because I know I'm unlikely to need it, but I have to keep it concealed. When I'm in the woods, I tote a 44mag because if I need it, I can't rely on the sight of it to cause my attacker pause, nor will the attacker have a response to being shot unless the shot is incapacitating. I need to stop the threat right.effing.now. Concealment isn't a requirement.
I dunno, just something I noticed.
Chris
What powder were you using, #9? I sold my GP-100 (to my uncle who pestered me for years for it) when I got my SRH. I was going to try different handgun magnum powders to get the speed up but the revolver is gone.
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Dang it, now I've got an itch to play with H110 and something in a 180gr hollowpoint.
Who has the deepest, nastiest flying ashtray out there in 180gr? I want to blow the ever living frak out of some milk jugs, and breathe fire into the air. Jacketed and can handle 1800-2000fps.
Be careful. You might be hard to find a 180g deep hollow point just because 180g of metal fills up the space on a .357 magnum hollow point. Plus I don't think any of them designed for .357 magnum will stay together at those speeds.
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Looks like options are "probably good enough with .357 and premium ammo" or "definitely good to go for PA wild life with .44 mag and off the shelf common ammo". Most of the other options seem to be less common types of caliber, which may be just as good or better but slightly more uncommon.
Would everyone agree?
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^^^^ I like it.
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I vote for a SAA-sized revolver in .45 Colt, or any .44 Mag stoked with 240+ grain .44 Specials. Or a 1911 in .45 Super or .460 Rowland. The .45's are the better choice, but it sounds like he might have the .44M already.
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Looks like options are "probably good enough with .357 and premium ammo" or "definitely good to go for PA wild life with .44 mag and off the shelf common ammo". Most of the other options seem to be less common types of caliber, which may be just as good or better but slightly more uncommon.
Would everyone agree?
Yes, but go for the .44 mag :)
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Yes, but go for the .44 mag :)
Yea, likely will. Not thrilled with the prospect, but oh well. Now I have to sort through the various models. I'd ideally want something as streamlined as possible, and preferably compact but heavy. I want it to take up the least amount of space in my bag as possible, but weigh enough that the recoil is actually manageable. I'll look into shoulder holsters and the whatnot, probably make my own if necessary.
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I'm noticing something odd in threads like this.
Chris
Really good observation. If we're hunting animals, we want them killed humanely. If we're protecting ourselves from animals though, it should be under the same theory as protecting ourselves from humans. We want to STOP them RIGHT NOW. Whether they die or not minutes later is irrelevant.
Rev probably has the most choices in a .44 if he chooses to go large caliber. While I love my Vaquero, sometimes I wish I went .44 vs .45 in it, so it matches my Marlin .44 rifle. Or wish I got the rifle in .45. I have a Winchester Trapper in .45 but don't like the rifle itself nearly as much as the Marlin. And I don't like my Super Blackhawk nearly as much as the Vaquero. Oh well.
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Really good observation. If we're hunting animals, we want them killed humanely. If we're protecting ourselves from animals though, it should be under the same theory as protecting ourselves from humans. We want to STOP them RIGHT NOW. Whether they die or not minutes later is irrelevant.
Rev probably has the most choices in a .44 if he chooses to go large caliber. While I love my Vaquero, sometimes I wish I went .44 vs .45 in it, so it matches my Marlin .44 rifle. Or wish I got the rifle in .45. I have a Winchester Trapper in .45 but don't like the rifle itself nearly as much as the Marlin. And I don't like my Super Blackhawk nearly as much as the Vaquero. Oh well.
Aye, I would like to match it with a good lever gun while I'm at it.
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What powder were you using, #9? I sold my GP-100 (to my uncle who pestered me for years for it) when I got my SRH. I was going to try different handgun magnum powders to get the speed up but the revolver is gone.
H110. No, I will not share the load as it was HOT. I probably fired 500+ with no obvious negative effects, but it was not a book load or even close.
Chris
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Yea, likely will. Not thrilled with the prospect, but oh well. Now I have to sort through the various models. I'd ideally want something as streamlined as possible, and preferably compact but heavy. I want it to take up the least amount of space in my bag as possible, but weigh enough that the recoil is actually manageable. I'll look into shoulder holsters and the whatnot, probably make my own if necessary.
Why do you not like the 44mag? With sane loads, it's not as obnoxious as the 357mag with hot loads.
IMO, the 629 I posted at the beginning is about as close to ideal for your stated purpose. A 3" barrel, while kind of rare, may help in the toting dept, but my 4" rides nicely in a Threepersons style holster and would be concealable under a longish shirt or jacket. The RB grips can get pretty small if you go down to Magnas with a Tyler T-grip, but you have the flexibility to go to SB conversion grips for range use.
Recoil-wise, a good fitting grip (very important!) with 240s@1000fps will be comfortable to shoot. Out of the 629, I find 240s@800fps to be like 38special out of a k-frame and 250s@1200 to be more like your typical mid-range 357mag. Above that, recoil starts to get brisk (in the 629, still not bad in a Redhawk), but you wouldn't use those loads for anything but "real work".
This is a video of me shooting my 5.5" Redhawk at a pin shoot years ago. The Redhawk is a bit heavier than the 629. The load is a 240gr LSWC at 1000fps using Trail Boss powder, so it's just a warm 44special load. Maybe that'll give you an idea of recoil at the low to mid end of the scale...
As slow as I was, I turned in the fastest time at that point in the day (ended up being in the top 3rd of the field). The holster is a Threepersons style, so you can see how it rides.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yin6MjxNDFw
Chris
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H110. No, I will not share the load as it was HOT. I probably fired 500+ with no obvious negative effects, but it was not a book load or even close.
Chris
I'll never share my 10mm mag or 45 colt experiments either.
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Looks like options are "probably good enough with .357 and premium ammo" or "definitely good to go for PA wild life with .44 mag and off the shelf common ammo". Most of the other options seem to be less common types of caliber, which may be just as good or better but slightly more uncommon.
Yes, but go for the .44 mag :)
In this case, go big bore. You already have plenty of pistols for town, so there's no need to get a double duty revolver.
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Be careful. You might be hard to find a 180g deep hollow point just because 180g of metal fills up the space on a .357 magnum hollow point. Plus I don't think any of them designed for .357 magnum will stay together at those speeds.
.44, not .357. No deathwish here. Looking for a really light-for-caliber .44 bullet with a big, deep ashtray. Something I can push it so fast that it is pushing jacket separation, and when it hits so much as an apple, the bullet shatters from the velocity, rotational forces and sudden resistance.
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What you need is a 44mag version of Speer's 38 "short barrel" load. :D
Chris
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I was thinking that the Speer GDHP would probably be a good candidate, actually. Not sure if that, or the XTP, would give me more internal case capacity at the crimp line.
This is all about "H110 all the way to the top, then crimp that boolit on good and let 'er rip!"
I suspect the GDHP would be more satisfying since it is usually limited in loading and design/application to .44 special rather than magnum. XTP's are pretty much designed to be magnum-compatible, meaning I'd get less separation or fragmentation.
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I found the XTP, at least for 357, puts more bullet below the crimp than many others. It was a challenge for me to develop a powerful 357mag 180gr load because of that.
Chris
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If you cast, you could always get a mould made for that purpose. There are a couple companies that do custom moulds for a good price. One has an online tool for designing your own.
Chris
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What you need is a 44mag version of Speer's 38 "short barrel" load. :D
Chris
Not my 4" Redhawk... the 5.5" one. I'll have enough barrel to make use of most of that H110, though I'll still probably have a decent fireball as well:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi124.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fp17%2Fazredhawk44%2FIMG_0934.jpg&hash=97e9763d45d721da0543829560b8db94e29f854c) (http://s124.photobucket.com/user/azredhawk44/media/IMG_0934.jpg.html)
Slightly different than this older pic of it... it now sports a green fiber optic front sight and one of the Hogue Bantam rubber grips similar to what comes on the 4" Redhawks. Great grip. I think it perfects what can be done with the Redhawk grip. Much higher natural grip position than the wood monogrip, without subjecting the shooter to the nasty knucklebashing that you get with the stock wood grips. Nice and slim, too.
Frankly, I find AA#7 to be the perfect burn rate for the 5.5" Redhawk and a reasonable 200-250gr bullet. Recoil, lack of fireball, power delivered to target and so on. H110/Win296/LilGun/etc seem to respond well to 8" barrels, from what I've seen with friends with longer barreled .44, .45/.454 and .480 platforms. Where does 2400 fall on the burn rate spectrum? faster than H110?
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Maybe the old school pre lawyer hand load recipes for the .357 magnum. I shot a wounded flopping doe whitetail deer in the head with a .357 magnum to kill it and my 180g XTP 1100fps hand loads didn't exit, it did blow all the brain matter and the top of the skull in a nice little circle around the deer's head.
Years ago I shot a muley doe in the head at contact distance with my security six firing a Speer JSP. I was in a coulee waiting for them and they just kept coming closer and closer. When this doe was right next to me I couldn't resist.
It was very messy. And loud.. I caught a bunch of splatter in the face and I am never doing that again... Did I mention how loud it was?
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Where does 2400 fall on the burn rate spectrum? faster than H110?
Faster than H110. Not much is slower in a handgun than good ol' H110 (it's a fast rifle powder as well).
Chris
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Did I mention how loud it was?
What?
my wife loves when I do that
Chris
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I was thinking that the Speer GDHP would probably be a good candidate, actually. Not sure if that, or the XTP, would give me more internal case capacity at the crimp line.
This is all about "H110 all the way to the top, then crimp that boolit on good and let 'er rip!"
I suspect the GDHP would be more satisfying since it is usually limited in loading and design/application to .44 special rather than magnum. XTP's are pretty much designed to be magnum-compatible, meaning I'd get less separation or fragmentation.
or the DCHP but they start at 240g. I'm not sure either one of them will hold together above 1500fps.
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Not my 4" Redhawk... the 5.5" one. I'll have enough barrel to make use of most of that H110, though I'll still probably have a decent fireball as well:
I've actually gotten away from H110 and gone to AA#9. Similar results with a lot less muzzle flash.
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I've actually gotten away from H110 and gone to AA#9. Similar results with a lot less muzzle flash.
AA9 is on my "to try" list, after liking AA7 so much.
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AA9 is on my "to try" list, after liking AA7 so much.
its even finer grained then H110 so it can be messy when reloading.
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AZR:
Some of the nastiest .44mag loads I have shot were 180gr. They seem like the equivalent of hot 125gr in .357mag. All sorts of subjective muzzle blast.
Rev:
mtnbkr speaks truth WRT 1000fps + 240gr LSWC out of N-frame or such revolvers. Mild recoil, but effective penetration in a hard cast bullet. I like them out of my SW629 4" and my wife's Rossi M92 lever gun. They have been my 629 carry load, as I found nothing like them until I looked at Buffalo Bore's .44mag offerings recently.
mtnbkr spoke of 3" bbl, but 2.5" bbl is more common and is very "snub-nose-like" in handling. Though for shoulder and IWB holster carry, the 4" bbl is just fine and loses nothing to the shorter bbls as far as concealment. OWB or cross-draw is where the shorter bbl helps concealment. 4" bbl in .44mag is popular for good reason.
Nice thing about .44mag is that if you Go West, you can kick it up a couple notches and have a reasonable hiking revolver, with nothing more powerful handgun-wise than the few guys toting .454Casull revos.
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Rev, one thing to consider when getting into .44mag:
You can have VERY different recoil impulse feelings from what "should" be very similar stereotypical 240gr JSP loadings. Winchester, Remington, Magtech and Hornady may each offer a 1200fps 240gr JSP of some sort for sale over the counter... and each of them may use a different burn rate of powder or different cartridge length and crimp depth resulting in different feelings when firing.
Then to make matters worse, they will change their powder whenever they want.
You can have two boxes of Winchester WWB 240gr JSP ammo from Walmart and see that the primer is different, and feel that the powder is different when shooting.
I find shooting anything at full retail power (or even hotter... full handload power) is a very subjective experience. My typical plinking 240gr LSWC load is only a skosh hotter than mtnbkr's pinshooting load he mentioned earlier, and it's right at my happy spot for power to recoil.
I do NOT like shooting retail ammo in my .44. I just never know what I'm getting into with each box. I can beat the flinch when I make my own ammo, even with H110 loads and 300gr pills, because I know what to expect. But I get beat by it when I shoot mystery ammo.
If you're not going to get into handloading, then I suggest you meet up with someone here on APS whom you trust and find a way to get him to work up some suitable and consistent .44mag loads. It's just super important in this platform and heavier to shoot consistent feeling ammo.
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Yup, brainfart on my part wrt 2.5" vs 3".
It can't be said enough, recoil mitigation is significantly impacted by grip fit. Too big or too small will hurt. It took me a long time to find proper grips for my Redhawk to facilitate the heavy loads I shoot through it, mainly because of the oversized gripframe on that gun (I have smallish hands for a dude).
If you get the N-frame, you'll have a lot of options, even more-so with a RB frame. Don't accept the factory offerings unless they just happen to work for you.
Chris
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Yup, brainfart on my part wrt 2.5" vs 3".
It can't be said enough, recoil mitigation is significantly impacted by grip fit. Too big or too small will hurt. It took me a long time to find proper grips for my Redhawk to facilitate the heavy loads I shoot through it, mainly because of the oversized gripframe on that gun (I have smallish hands for a dude).
If you get the N-frame, you'll have a lot of options, even more-so with a RB frame. Don't accept the factory offerings unless they just happen to work for you.
Chris
Huge +1 to grip size.
If you do decide to shop the Ruger side of the aisle, keep in mind that the SRH grip frame will probably have more grip choices than the standard Redhawk. The SRH also has a shorter distance from grip backstrap to trigger face.
The shortest big magnum Ruger offers is the "Alaskan" model, which is a SRH, not a Redhawk. 2.5" barrel, I think. That will have lots of aftermarket grip options and I think they even share commonality with GP100 style grips.
That being said, the grips shipping with the 4" .44mag and .45colt Redhawks recently are freaking awesome.
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DO NOT put a set of rosewood grips with awesome checkering on a big-bore magnum revolver. Just don't. And they look so pretty you won't take them off, even tho' they rip up your palms when you shoot.
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DO NOT put a set of rosewood grips with awesome checkering on a big-bore magnum revolver. Just don't. And they look so pretty you won't take them off, even tho' they rip up your palms when you shoot.
I have a set of awesome walnut grips with aggressive stippling on my Redhawk. Works just fine. Rubber grips don't work for me (grabs my skin), nor do they appreciably absorb shock.
Chris
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I have a set of awesome walnut grips with aggressive stippling on my Redhawk. Works just fine. Rubber grips don't work for me (grabs my skin), nor do they appreciably absorb shock.
Chris
Mine is a Ruger Bisley .45LC. The difference might be the Bisleys are supposed to roll with the recoil and the checkering prevents that. So I just don't shoot more than a dozen gristle-bear loads at a time. (they are not fun after that anyway) But if I keep 230 - 255 grain bullets under about 1100 fps instead of 1300+ and I can shoot a hundred or so w/o problems.
I really should put the smooth walnut grips on just to try it (the gun came with fancy checkered grips already installed and the plain grips in the box)
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When I had a Vaquero I bought a fair amount of .44spl gold dot factory loads. Pleasant to shoot. I still want a 329.
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AZR:
Some of the nastiest .44mag loads I have shot were 180gr. They seem like the equivalent of hot 125gr in .357mag. All sorts of subjective muzzle blast.
Thanks, roo_ster. I've played this game in the past, a long time back when I first got the 5.5" Redhawk... just to get a feel for what all loadings were possible. I do remember the fireball was monstrous with 180 and 200gr lead bullets I was shooting back then, and Win296/H110. Then I decided I would subscribe to the Keith theory of handgun loading (hard cast, flat meplat, no expansion and 100% crushing power) and have been hanging out there for awhile. Stabilized for the most part on 240gr LSWC, AA#7 at 16.0gr and a slightly longer than standard COAL of 1.685". I lack a chrony but I'm guessing it's about 1300fps.
Re-reading that passage from Unintended Consequences where Henry blows away the rapists in the woods reminded me that I wanted to try and develop a similar load for my Redhawk, just to see how destructive a light hollowpoint at 2000fps could be. If his S&W can handle it, then my Redhawk can, too. I can load longer OAL's and leave more case capacity to decrease pressure, and the cylinder and frame are stronger. Only thing he had was a barrel that was about 2 7/8" longer than mine. I'm not rushing off to build a hand grenade or anything, but I really want to knock on that 1900-2000fps wall with a handgun.
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I lack a chrony but I'm guessing it's about 1300fps.
Get one. An inexpensive Shooting Chrony will be better than guesswork. Guns have a habit of not shooting like you expect. My GP100 was notoriously slow, even though it had a tight BC gap. My Redhawk is fast, delivering velocities well in excess of what I expect to get with a given powder charge.
Re-reading that passage from Unintended Consequences where Henry blows away the rapists in the woods reminded me that I wanted to try and develop a similar load for my Redhawk, just to see how destructive a light hollowpoint at 2000fps could be. If his S&W can handle it, then my Redhawk can, too.
UC is a work of fiction. Don't gamble your gun. Get a chronograph and work up. Make sure you understand how to read your results and correlate that to the powder charges. Make note when a given increase doesn't result in an equal increase in velocity compared to your previous increases (ie each .1gr delivers another 20fps, but the last .1gr only gives you 5fps. That means you're at max).
Chris
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I'm not sure you could get a safe .44mag load at 2000fps out of a handgun. I can't seem to break 2000fps with my 454 casull in a 7.5" barrel with 240g bullets.
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Have you got a 357 Redhawk? I wouldn't try that with anything less.
Why a Redhawk?
I run 158gr hollowpoints over 1600fps in my .357 Desert Eagle. (Accurate Arms lists separate Desert Eagle load data in their .357 Magnum pages)
Ruger's not the only one building stout .357 Magnums.
IIRC, there's a stout Freedom Arms Model 353 Casull in .357 Magnum, and then there are the Dan Wesson variants.
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I thought the 353 was their stretched 357mag (nearly a supermag, not that it changes the convo).
Ruger's not the only one building stout .357 Magnums
They're the only ones building affordable ones. You can buy multiple GP100s for the cost of a single FA. DWs are getting pricey too. Even a 357mag Redhawk, which is collectable these days, is cheap compared to a FA.
Chris
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+1 on "get a chrony if you handload."
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I do NOT like shooting retail ammo in my .44. I just never know what I'm getting into with each box. I can beat the flinch when I make my own ammo, even with H110 loads and 300gr pills, because I know what to expect. But I get beat by it when I shoot mystery ammo.
If you're not going to get into handloading, then I suggest you meet up with someone here on APS whom you trust and find a way to get him to work up some suitable and consistent .44mag loads. It's just super important in this platform and heavier to shoot consistent feeling ammo.
The overwhelming majority of my big bore revolver experience comes from shooting with P95Carry. Everything up to and including .45-70 and .454. .44 mag that he loaded had a faster burning powder that was very brisk and er, "snappy" ? He used a slower burning powder on the larger calibers. I could fire a BFR or Raging Bull with no problems, other than "That is loud. Like, subjectively louder than putting my head in contact with the barrel of a 155mm artillery piece." .44 mag, yea... no. I could handle it, obviously. It was merely unpleasant, and significantly degraded my accuracy as rounds fired increased.
As you say, I suspected regardless of my choice in caliber on any big bore pistol, I'd have to hand load unless I lucked into an expensive semi-custom projectile solution that fit my needs perfectly. I will get into reloading at some point. At the moment, I'm probably going to look into a hand loader like what G98 has. I mentally figure I'll need to make 10 rounds per configuration, and guesstimating 10-15 configurations until I hit or choose optimal. Then I'd estimate 50-100 rounds per year in that load.
And yep, a chronograph is necessary if I want to work out the calculations.
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Why would you *need* to handload?
Chris
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Why would you *need* to handload?
Chris
Why wouldn't you?
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi328.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl342%2F1k_wayne%2Fguns%2FIMG_20131002_071754.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=71fc5df87f3659e4e90d24a3c4fa8b64adcf0d5a)
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The overwhelming majority of my big bore revolver experience comes from shooting with P95Carry. Everything up to and including .45-70 and .454. .44 mag that he loaded had a faster burning powder that was very brisk and er, "snappy" ? He used a slower burning powder on the larger calibers. I could fire a BFR or Raging Bull with no problems, other than "That is loud. Like, subjectively louder than putting my head in contact with the barrel of a 155mm artillery piece." .44 mag, yea... no. I could handle it, obviously. It was merely unpleasant, and significantly degraded my accuracy as rounds fired increased.
As you say, I suspected regardless of my choice in caliber on any big bore pistol, I'd have to hand load unless I lucked into an expensive semi-custom projectile solution that fit my needs perfectly. I will get into reloading at some point. At the moment, I'm probably going to look into a hand loader like what G98 has. I mentally figure I'll need to make 10 rounds per configuration, and guesstimating 10-15 configurations until I hit or choose optimal. Then I'd estimate 50-100 rounds per year in that load.
And yep, a chronograph is necessary if I want to work out the calculations.
You must have shot a lightweight .44 mag, the Raging Bull isn't must heavier than the large frame .44 mag handguns. If you could handle that in a true 454 Casull load you will have no problem shooting a 4" large frame .44 mag revolver in the hottest round you can find/make.
My current 454 Casull load is 250g XTP at 1850fps. Brimic, Liz and Nick have shot it, its no picnic. Brimic's 480 Ruger is no picnic to shoot either.
Ruger Redhawk or a S&W 429 in a 4" barrel is what I am getting at.
If you are going to shoot a common caliber like 44 mag only 50-100 times a year, its not worth reloading for unless you already reloading for other calibers. You will easily spend what you spend on the .44 mag in the equipment to start reloading.
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Why would you *need* to handload?
Chris
Fair point. Technically, I could just drop in factory loads. It'd just be a very good idea. See AZRedhawk44's post. I've been told similar information. Vastly different experiences based on load.
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Get the gun and get grips that fit your hand (if factory grips don't), then evaluate your need to reload.
I am an avid reloader, but that doesn't make it the appropriate solution. If you're not going to shoot a lot (hundreds of rounds per year) and don't need specialty or boutique loads (such as the heavy bullet 357mag loads, or 300+gr 44mag loads), it isn't worth the startup costs.
BTW, if P95's Taurus 454 is the one with the scope I shot years ago, it's not bad at all to shoot. The scope adds a lot of mass.
Chris
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Fair point. Technically, I could just drop in factory loads. It'd just be a very good idea. See AZRedhawk44's post. I've been told similar information. Vastly different experiences based on load.
Before I reloaded I did notice that the premium ammo was consistent from box to box, premium being like Winchester Supreme, Hornady, etc.
The white box stuff or cheaper stuff did vary a little bit at times.
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I am an avid reloader, but that doesn't make it the appropriate solution. If you're not going to shoot a lot (hundreds of rounds per year) and don't need specialty or boutique loads (such as the heavy bullet 357mag loads, or 300+gr 44mag loads), it isn't worth the startup costs.
I'll admit that.
The real advantage of reloading come is when the store is closed and you need ammo tomorrow morning.
Casting bullets allows you to try things outside of the range of factory loads and makes for very cheap bullets that you can make at any time. That being said, if the cost of the equipment and materials were amortized per round loaded, you would have to fire thousands of rounds to just break even.
I've seen cost breakdowns given mathematically in the early chapters of some reloading manuals- I'm pretty sure they are put there so that a reloader can try to convince their SO that reloading 'saves money' not becuase the reloader or would-be reloader needs convincing to spend on a new hobby. :laugh:
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Reloading takes a lot of time too, unless you spend the money for a progressive.
Also need a good place to set everything up.
I don't see why you can't buy a useful hiking/woods defense .44 magnum cartridge OTS ;/
Out here you can buy .45LC "Ruger only" bear loads - don't know if they stock those back east ... =|
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I'll admit that.
The real advantage of reloading come is when the store is closed and you need ammo tomorrow morning.
Casting bullets allows you to try things outside of the range of factory loads and makes for very cheap bullets that you can make at any time. That being said, if the cost of the equipment and materials were amortized per round loaded, you would have to fire thousands of rounds to just break even.
I've seen cost breakdowns given mathematically in the early chapters of some reloading manuals- I'm pretty sure they are put there so that a reloader can try to convince their SO that reloading 'saves money' not becuase the reloader or would-be reloader needs convincing to spend on a new hobby. :laugh:
Somewhere around reload number 3000 in .38 special I recouped my costs of the reloading equipment. Some of my hand loads still cost over $2 each when you figure in the cost of the brass and bullet.
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It doesn't cost much to set up a cheap serviceable reloader for doing big-bore revolver cartridges. Maybe $100, which can be recouped rapidly. 9mm or .40S&W? Not so much. You can reload those on a single-stage press, but it gets tedious, and the money savings is not really there. (being *able* to reload and shoot when the shelves have been empty for 6 months is a whole 'nuther issue)
With .41 Magnum or .45 Colt, the *cheap* factory ammo will run you $45 a box. Kind of takes the joy out of shooting when every time you take a shot you think "Bang! (cheeseburger)" I don't know about .44 Mag and .44 Special, I don't shoot those, but I imagine they start at $35 a box and go up fast.
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When I had a 4" GP100, I was slinging 180gr XTPs at 1300fps.
I'm noticing something odd in threads like this.
When a person asks for a gun recommendation for protection against humans, that person is counseled to get something larger. A 5-shot 38special is no good. Get a high capacity 9mm, a 40, or a 45. Meth addled bikers ya know. But, when the discussion turns to wilderness carry, the recommendations take the opposite path. Now you need a smaller, lower powered gun. Don't get that 44, get the 358 or even 38. Then someone will chime in about their 32H&RMag or 22lr. Comparisons will be made to the relative likelihood of being attacked by animals, etc. It seems more "logic" is applied to wilderness carry than "in town" carry.
Why?
Even a meth addled biker knows what a gun will do or will react when being shot. Some measure of a gun's effectiveness is the human mind's reaction to "zomg! I've been shot!". Wild animals? Not so much. Their reaction is more like "Owie! Something hurts. I'm gonna fsck up that hairless ape over there!"
Then there is the recommendation for boutique or uncommon loads for the "smaller" caliber vs common, just-as-effective, off-the-shelf options for the bigger caliber.
You can spend $30 for 20-rnds of this hard to find (except via mail order or well stocked gun shops) ammo for the smaller gun, or $30 for 50-rnd boxes of WWB 44mag at Walmart.
Personally, I carry a 5-shot 38special "in town" because I know I'm unlikely to need it, but I have to keep it concealed. When I'm in the woods, I tote a 44mag because if I need it, I can't rely on the sight of it to cause my attacker pause, nor will the attacker have a response to being shot unless the shot is incapacitating. I need to stop the threat right.effing.now. Concealment isn't a requirement.
I dunno, just something I noticed.
Chris
I wanted to get back to the point that mtnbkr made here.
My inner contrarian is going to disagree with it.
A huge reason why I tend to carry a .45acp instead of a .44magnum in the back country is due to the high possibility of needing to get off a rapid snap-shot on the draw (see snake picture from a page or two back). For me at least, the likelihood of needing to shoot a coyote, skunk, javelina or snake that I only glimpse out of the corner of my eye and have less than a second to hit before bad things happen... is much higher than the likelihood of that kodiak from The Edge is gonna come tearing through the salt junipers.
I used to try an awful lot, but I could not master rapid hip-shots with my .44.
I've been stewing on this the last couple days, and I think it's because I have two different ways of gripping the gun based on whether I am shooting with the sights or just by feel on a snap shot.
I can shoot my .44 just fine at anywhere from 25 feet to 100+ yards, single action.
But my marksmanship falls to shyt when shooting DA. I can keep it on a pie plate out to maybe 20-25 yards, but that's it, and it takes some deliberate shooting to do that (not fast). And the results get worse, the more powerful the handload is inside the cartridge. I haven't been able to defeat my flinch in DA with anything more than about a 750 ft/lb load (which is about 3/4 power for retail 44mag loads).
.44 special loads I can shoot DA well enough... I could enter into an ICORE or pin shoot and shoot the course with specials and not be too embarrassed.
So the reason I was so strongly endorsing service pistols in the larger common calibers is because Rev can probably find one with an identical trigger to his regular daily carry gun, rather than trying to master something as difficult as hip-shooting with a .44magnum. .45acp or 10mm with hardcast heavy pills will penetrate VERY well. And give better shot placement for most shooters who are not sixgun aficionados.
However, Rev has also implied that his method of carry may be to stick the pistol inside a backpack, which effectively negates any need for rapid draw and target acquisition anyways.
I just know my dog might be dead today if I was carrying my .44mag that day rather than something I could draw and shoot very accurately by feel alone.
Were I to visit backcountry further north towards the Rockies or Cascades, I'd carry a full power .44mag with 300+gr bullets, and spend several months beforehand doing ICORE, steel or pin shoots with the load and mastering the DA shot with that load... probably 1000 rounds of dedicated DA practice or more.
I just don't see Rev presenting any intention of embracing the training cycle to be proficient with this type of handgun will cost him more than the 100rds a year he's thinking he's going to put through it. And as such, he is better protected with a gun with a trigger he's more familiar with and a recoil impulse (semiautomatic slide) he's more familiar with.
I agree that large threatening animals should be broken in half with the biggest gun you can point at them. I'm just suggesting that making a STOPPING shot on a large threatening animal (not killing, stopping RFN) is more about shot placement and penetration that is adequate to the task, than raw foot-pounds or projectile grain weight alone.
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I started reloading with a Lee Hand Press.
The predecessor of this:
http://leeprecision.com/breech-lock-hand-press.html
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Toss in dies, a scale, a hand-primer, and a few other odds & ends and you are good-to-go for low-rate production. I would perform one batch jobs in the evening, some in front of the teevee. (Powder dispensing and bullet seating, no teevee.) After I carefully weighed charges for my experimental loads and found the right one, I would see if one of the Lee dippers would dispense that exact amount. If not, I would get a cartridge case and cut/file away until that case held the same as my recipe, after scraping off the top with a bit of card stock. Of course, solder a handle on your custom dipper. Frankly, a dipper is the only way I felt safe dispensing Bullseye into a .38spl case. Dip, scrape, pour, seat, right honking then. Telling a single from a double charge of Bullseye in such a large case was tough. With the dipper, I eliminated the chance that the scale was out of whack or the dispenser was screwy.
I think G98 found an even better hand-press tool.
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Lee's smallest bench-mounted press should* be a lot less tedious to use than their hand press, assuming you don't need maximum portability. and it's cheaper than the new improved hand press.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/807734/lee-reloader-single-stage-press.
*not sure cuz I dont have one, but I do have a hand press
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fleeprecision.com%2Fimages%2FT%2Ft-786.jpg&hash=84e7718791346316d4d5f59ecaaa11990d7cfc9a)
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Azred, my point was not about speed shooting or anything like that, but that people seem to consider threats in the wilderness to be less than those "in town", hence the recommendation for smaller guns and calibers. My contention is that animals require more killing power because they lack the conscious fear of being shot (and understanding of the ramifications) that most humans have. They will only react to the biological response (blood lose, CNS destruction), where a human would logically process the event and possibly call off the attack in fear or from a need to preserve self.
As for DA vs SA shooting. Simply forget that your DA guns have SA sears. I did that years ago and almost exclusively shoot DA. I'll sometimes shoot SA at longer ranges, but under 50yds, I shoot DA only.
Chris
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Azred, my point was not about speed shooting or anything like that, but that people seem to consider threats in the wilderness to be less than those "in town", hence the recommendation for smaller guns and calibers. My contention is that animals require more killing power because they lack the conscious fear of being shot (and understanding of the ramifications) that most humans have. They will only react to the biological response (blood lose, CNS destruction), where a human would logically process the event and possibly call off the attack in fear or from a need to preserve self.
As for DA vs SA shooting. Simply forget that your DA guns have SA sears. I did that years ago and almost exclusively shoot DA. I'll sometimes shoot SA at longer ranges, but under 50yds, I shoot DA only.
Chris
Wild animals with teeth, horns, claws and sure size only know three things, food, *expletive deleted*ck and flight.
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I used to try an awful lot, but I could not master rapid hip-shots with my .44.
This still perplexes me.
Why the Quick-Draw McGraw, when a slightly-less-quick but better-aimed shot would offer better odds in killing the snake/bear/zombie?
IOW, is it for style points? Are there judges with score cards hiding behind shrubbery out there, ala' Dancing With The Stars?
We don't do that in self-defense vs. armed 2-legged varmints, so why the shift in discipline? (Well, maybe that colloquial "we" is a stretch, things might be different in AZRH44 World)
I would think, especially with a revolver and 5-6 rounds of whatever, that one would optimize their chance to make solid hits.
I mean, sure, if it's a big Brown or Grizzly bear, save one round for yourself if the first 4 or 5 don't do the trick, but I must otherwise be missing something here, right? ???
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After sourcing just a few reloading components at my usual haunts the last few months, that's not a happy prospect, either.
Cast boolits are still very much in stock here, thanks to a good supply of wheelweights, lead, and gas checks.
Powder is hit-and-miss, although it's slowly getting better. Mail-order hits you with the UPS Haz-Mat fees, so order big there.
Primers are back, I bought a few thousand the other day at Mountain of Geese.
Brass is something you'd best network for.
I was a brass whore at the ranges where I babysat for many years. I grabbed brass for chamberings I didn't even have, knowing I could barter with it.
The more you shoot a given chambering, the sooner your handloading will amortize the investment.
Here's the portable press I use, mostly for BPCR these days, although it's been utilized to make a batch of Czech 7.62x45 as seen in the photo:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmauser98.com%2Fvzammo.jpg&hash=d8288edca76d9f9d0c7ab5bb875f99102d866b0f)
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This still perplexes me.
Why the Quick-Draw McGraw, when a slightly-less-quick but better-aimed shot would offer better odds in killing the snake/bear/zombie?
IOW, is it for style points? Are there judges with score cards hiding behind shrubbery out there, ala' Dancing With The Stars?
We don't do that in self-defense vs. armed 2-legged varmints, so why the shift in discipline? (Well, maybe that colloquial "we" is a stretch, things might be different in AZRH44 World)
I would think, especially with a revolver and 5-6 rounds of whatever, that one would optimize their chance to make solid hits.
I mean, sure, if it's a big Brown or Grizzly bear, save one round for yourself if the first 4 or 5 don't do the trick, but I must otherwise be missing something here, right? ???
lol, no not for style points.
Things very well may be different in the AZRH44 world.
We do do that in certain self defense situations in the 2-legged world. I've taken a couple of pistol self defense classes that introduce the concept, and while I'm certainly no master of it, it can be accurate enough for bad breath and close-in defensive distance.
It's a topic that sparks a lot of discussion when it does come up. Point shooting, flash sight picture, whatever you may call the transition between a "I need it right now and this is the best I can aim" shot and a well aimed shot from eye level... it happens in defensive shootings.
http://www.nationalgunforum.com/general-gun-discussion/1633-shooting-without-sights.html
http://www.virginiacops.org/Articles/Shooting/pointvsight.htm
http://www.usacarry.com/flash-sight-picture-technique/
I don't expect to perform a rapid draw and shoot against a big griz. I anticipate having enough time to bring the weapon up to my eyes and make a well-aimed shot. This is because those animals are big enough that I'm likely to see or hear them coming from farther than that X foot Tueller distance that dictates our defensive response if we cannot pre-empt the situation. Keep in mind, X changes based upon any number of factors... our ability to get out of the way, our ability to defuse the situation other ways, our ability to draw from whatever holster we are wearing, and our ability to put a good hit on target that stops the attacker.
My .44 holsters each have straps that come up and over the backside of the hammer, so I have to use my middle and ring finger to pull that snap. Then I have to shift my hand to the grip and start drawing. I'm already a quarter to a half second behind on the draw compared to one of my typical defensive pistols around town since those have no retention strap to mess with or change hand position from snap to grip. Then I'm hauling out a 45-50 ounce handgun rather than a 25-30 ounce handgun. Twice the inertia to bring to a stop when bringing it up to my face for a sighted shot. Then, when squeezing the DA trigger on that big N-frame or Redhawk, that giant cylinder builds inertia and then the cylinder stop engages with a THUNK and torques the sights sideways at the last fraction of a second before the hammer falls. All these things add up and significantly slow down the difference in time between a single well-aimed shot with a lightweight .45acp and a heavy .44magnum.
I practice the rapid draw and shoot for outdoors situations such as:
1. Snake nearby
2. Something wants to tangle with my dog and I want to hit it before it closes the distance and makes the shot impossible
When I practice it, I tend to practice anywhere from 1-4 shots against a low target about 20 feet away. I have a sandy little desert venue where I can practice this safely. I practice with a draw and the first shot from about stomach level where I aim by indexing my finger along the pistol frame, then I begin punching out and bringing both hands together for a two-handed grip and the second shot comes from the chest level with a better feel for the front sight location but it's still point shooting rather than truly aiming, then by the third shot I've got front and rear sight aligned in front of my eyes.
When I'm well practiced with whatever pistol I'm using, I hit more often than not on the first shot. My practice target is usually a soda can or an empty cartridge box, which is smaller than a coiled snake or coyote by a significant margin.
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So how many tenths of a second do you save, vs. you know, actually aiming?
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So how many tenths of a second do you save, vs. you know, actually aiming?
Close to a full second, with a lightweight .45.
My dog can cover a lot of ground in a second. It can be the difference between getting a shot off at all, or not. Add in the speed a coyote or javelina can bring to the equation running to meet him, and we're talking about a 50-75 foot separation versus a merged ball of flesh, teeth and tusks.
I'm pretty bad at it with a .44. It's been a couple years since I've worked seriously at it with that gun, though. And that's the point I'm trying to make. The .44 takes a lot of work to maintain defensive pistol proficiency.
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I'm no expert on pistols and don't claim to be so I can't meaningfully contribute to a debate on the efficacy of the technique in question. But Rex Applegate as well as others was teaching the alternative aiming method of "point shooting" back in WWII so it's hardly new or solely the balliwick of gun forum cranks. I'd say the prrof is in the pudding. If an individual can safely and reliably put their shots where they intend to at limited range via point shooting more power to them.
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Here is a photo of a Ruger that blew up from hand loads. The reloader is a friend of mine with way more reloading experience then I do, he figures it was a double charge of bullseye in a 45 colt case.
Wrong pic, I'll post the 45 colt grenade when I find it. I think this one is a gp100, I'm not sure who or what happened.
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Here is a photo of a Ruger that blew up from hand loads. The reloader is a friend of mine with way more reloading experience then I do, he figures it was a double charge of bullseye in a 45 colt case.
Now it's just a five-shooter, huh?
=D
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The "hip shooting" technique was taught in a pistol class I took. The emphasis was not on using it for speed shooting, but moreso using it as a "fallback" I guess, if you find yourself in a position where an attacker popped out, or approached before you saw them, to within arms length and there was a chance of having your weapon taken away. We pulled our pistols with our shooting arms firmly tucked into our bodies. I was actually surprised at how well I grouped. Much better than I thought I would.
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Here is a photo of a Ruger that blew up from hand loads. The reloader is a friend of mine with way more reloading experience then I do, he figures it was a double charge of bullseye in a 45 colt case.
Wrong pic, I'll post the 45 colt grenade when I find it. I think this one is a gp100, I'm not sure who or what happened.
I could see that happening to a couple friends of mine. They like heavy bullets, hard crimps, and deep seating depths, and they think the "Ruger Blackhawk/Redhawk ONLY!!!" max powder charge makes a starting place.
Brad
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To each their own.
I've attended more than a few gun classes, including Mas Ayoob's LFI-I and LFI-II. Front Sight - Press.
If that haphazard shooting-from-the-hip, ala' Ed McGivern, and the one second saved is what un-cooks you or your dog's bacon, I'd recommend re-evaluating your risk management strategy out there in snakeland.
Is your dog one second too close to Petey the Snake? Is he one second too far away from you?
I carry a 5-shot 696 as my Back to Nature Gun.
Personally, I want each of those 5 fat .44 Special rounds to go exactly where I want them to, because when that cylinder's empty, I have to take time to produce a speedloader with 5 more rounds, etc.
I'll aim unless I'm not able to do so. That would mean Mr. Bear has either closed the distance, or has me by some part of the anatomy, in which case I'm screwing the muzzle into his eyebulb, etc.
Exhibition shooting is for - exhibition. =|
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G98, are you familiar with the Japanese sword art called Iaido? And its predecessor, Iaijutsu?
It's the art of drawing and cutting with the same motion. It's highly stylized and technical, like most Japanese martial arts. When practicing, one does so with a strict adherence to form and balance and technique. Not speed, though that comes later.
It's samurai hip-shooting, formalized into schools of study.
And the intent of it is to make successful deployment of the sword from the scabbard a reflexive motion... even if the technique called for is not one of the rigidly defined forms of the iaido school but an improvisation created by the student to meet the situation at hand.
A similar parallel can be drawn to High Power service rifle. Highly stylized and ritualized. However, the zen of the sight picture and body melding with the rifle and trigger application can have combat applicability.
There's no formal school to practice wilderness big bore defensive handgun. By my own standards, the best I can responsibly carry for my own situation, adhering to my standards I apply, is a hot hardcast .45acp. A component of my standards is a demand that I be able to shoot accurately from the draw utilizing point-shooting technique.
I'm cautioning against lowering your proficiency standards that you might ordinarily have for urban carry, when seeking a wilderness carry firearm.
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.tvgcdn.net%2FMediaBin%2FContent%2F100830%2FNews%2FTodays_News_Our_Take%2F5_fri%2F100903HappyDays1.jpg&hash=7035145bac5dd3d2b22bff95e0861c55355b9640)
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AZ, I can see your point. Except the 9mm Sigs I carry are good enough for 99% of situations i am likely to encounter. I tend to train for the likely stuff, not the unlikely. If a criminal was wearing body armor, I'd face a bit more difficulty as I was trained for center of mass shooting with pistols. (Oddly enough, top of sternum for rifles.) Edge cases are edge cases.
Just looking to expand my options.
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I doubt Colonel Applegate would agree with the classification of his methods as "haphazard shooting from the hip." ;/ If we're going off of argument from authority, I'll take the advice of the guy tasked with training the OSS over the guy who can name drop a few classes.
Seriously though, if you consistently hit what you're aiming at I don't see the issue with what aiming technique you use.
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Here is a photo of a Ruger that blew up from hand loads. The reloader is a friend of mine with way more reloading experience then I do, he figures it was a double charge of bullseye in a 45 colt case.
Wrong pic, I'll post the 45 colt grenade when I find it. I think this one is a gp100, I'm not sure who or what happened.
THAT was my fear, when working with Bullseye.
To each their own.
I've attended more than a few gun classes, including Mas Ayoob's LFI-I and LFI-II. Front Sight - Press.
If that haphazard shooting-from-the-hip, ala' Ed McGivern, and the one second saved is what un-cooks you or your dog's bacon, I'd recommend re-evaluating your risk management strategy out there in snakeland.
Is your dog one second too close to Petey the Snake? Is he one second too far away from you?
I carry a 5-shot 696 as my Back to Nature Gun.
Personally, I want each of those 5 fat .44 Special rounds to go exactly where I want them to, because when that cylinder's empty, I have to take time to produce a speedloader with 5 more rounds, etc.
I'll aim unless I'm not able to do so. That would mean Mr. Bear has either closed the distance, or has me by some part of the anatomy, in which case I'm screwing the muzzle into his eyebulb, etc.
Exhibition shooting is for - exhibition. =|
There are lots of point-shooting cranks. Read plenty on THR back in the day.Thing is, it does work, despite the several cranks who used to haunt THR. 10 yards COM on a human sihlouette, one session at the range. Farther, with more practice and the right weapon(1). But, the farther the target, (usually) the more time you have, so it makes going to the irons a better option.
Why Use It?
1. Speed. Faster than aimed fire, even a flash sight picture.
2. Opponent very close or closing fast into hand-to-hand range. Keeping your gun by your hip keeps the opponent's hands off it.
3. Low-light, where iron sights are not so useful. No tritium inserts? No big whoop. As long as there is light source enough to ID the target.
4. Shooting on the move.
Why Not Use It?
1. Whenever you have the time for good, aimed fire.
Less Time/Distance --> More Time/Distance
1. Draw and index fire from hip.
2. Draw and bring weapon up to bottom of eyesight and fire when it gets there, without seeking out sights, just the top of the weapon.
3. Flash front sight picture on target COM.
4. Clean sight picture on target COM.
It is not a replacement for, but an addition to good, aimed fire.
(1) Main reason I keep my AMT .45ACP DAO Backup is that I point-shoot it better than any other handgun I own. Good thing, since it came from the factory with no sights. Same thing with my Kel-Tec P32. And no, a groove or two spots of paint do not a sight make.
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THAT was my fear, when working with Bullseye.
But I really like your method you described earlier.
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But I really like your method you described earlier.
Not my original idea, just one I happily imitated.
G98:
Which hand tool was that, again?
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Rooster, Huntington Compac Press
Re: Hip Shooting - I'm not calling an abomination in the way of the One True Sword, I just don't see any logical value in it, especially when you're trying to save one's posterior.
Granted, it appears AZRH44 has acquired the skills necessary to be a bona-fide Gun Ninja, and for that I'm quite envious. He is a highly-trained professional, and per the standard TV disclaimer, I wouldn't recommend other folks try that at home.
Rex Applegate, really? Times and techniques change, usually for the better. Revolvers used to be fired one-handed, it was only proper. Folks used to shoot long-range Creedmoor matches on their backs, with rifles perched on their feet.
Here's what I'm getting at - firearms technology and training has improved tremendously since one held a slow match to the touch hole of a handgonne and hoped for the best.
Barrels are now rifled. Ammo quality is very consistent now. Sights are either adjustable, or can be regulated to bring the Point of Impact into the same general Zip Code as the Point of Aim. The systems are quite reliable.
In a rough and tumble situation where everybody agrees that Shot Placement rules supreme, why wouldn't a person take advantage of the accuracy feature built into the gun as it's pressed into service?
In my IPSC days, when fractions of seconds counted, we still aimed. Same for other competitions and games that simulate combat vs. the clock - we aim. I'd continue aiming unless, as stated earlier, Mr. Bear had closed the distance and I was about to become scat.
I watch Miculek rip off A-Zone hits with his wheelgun, and by gawd he's using the sights. His times would shame us mere mortals, and I'd be really curious to see if he'd revert to point shooting in a life-threatening pinch.
It just doesn't make sense to me. It reminds me of when I used to moonlight in a sporting goods store. I had people come and ask me which hunting/survival knife was balanced best for throwing. :facepalm:
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Chris,
I don't see the discussion in terms of "use -less- gun in the woods" than you would "on the street".
Instead it is "don't treat 2-300 pound thin-skinned predators like eastern black bears and cougars (or wolves and coyotes) like they are objectively harder to reach the vitals of than a 200-300 pound thin-skinned man."
Back East there is simply no -need- for a real big bore to reliably stop -any- of their 4-legged threats.
A proper bullet, heavy for caliber and designed to maintain its weight while penetrating deeply, is sufficient in any "major" handgun caliber (9mm and up, though I wouldn't recommend 9mm in favor of a larger caliber in the same platform if you had any choice).
That those proper bullets might be "specialty" is unimportant as you aren't going to be shooting a bunch of them, just enough to check for reliable functioning in your existing gun and provide some reloads.
That realistic assessment of actual need allows you to carry the very same gun, for which you already have accessories and with which you have already developed the proper muscle memory to draw and hit quickly under pressure due to your "people shooting" training, instead of dropping a bundle on a whole new gun and accessories you will rarely use.
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In a rough and tumble situation where everybody agrees that Shot Placement rules supreme, why wouldn't a person take advantage of the accuracy feature built into the gun as it's pressed into service?
Because you have about 1.25 seconds until two separate bodies become one tangled body.
Because a miss at a target 25 feet away will still mean you didn't shoot your own dog.
Because a miss at a target 25 feet away while your dog is still 50-75 feet away means you didn't shoot your own dog.
Because a miss at a target 25 feet away still puts a very loud shot out there that will distract both creatures.
Because you historically have about a 50% chance of hitting with that first shot because you practiced it a lot.
Because I can. And you could too. It's not that hard. It's only slightly harder than berating someone else who can do it.
In my IPSC days, when fractions of seconds counted, we still aimed. Same for other competitions and games that simulate combat vs. the clock - we aim. I'd continue aiming unless, as stated earlier, Mr. Bear had closed the distance and I was about to become scat.
That's because the competitive assumption in IPSC is:
1. Misses suck. They mean you have to reload sooner. They mean you have to re-engage the target again.
2. Six well-aimed shots with a 90% hit rate sent in 6 seconds trumps 6 point-shot shots with a 40% hit rate sent in 4 seconds.
Neither of those items hold true for me in the middle of nowhere in the Superstitions. Misses have a slight benefit by at least making noise and scaring either my dog or the other creature, and when my shot clock essentially stops at 1.2 seconds, I either get my first drawn point-shot, or nothing.
I got 4 shots off on that snake because my dog pulled up short after shot #1.
Your IPSC shot clock does not stop at 1.2 seconds.
I watch Miculek rip off A-Zone hits with his wheelgun, and by gawd he's using the sights. His times would shame us mere mortals, and I'd be really curious to see if he'd revert to point shooting in a life-threatening pinch.
Miculek has such wonderful natural point of aim reference with his body it wouldn't surprise me if he could pull off the same thing with sights once, then blindfolded a second time. Lots of shooters have similar NPOA reference with handguns. Miculek may be confirming with sights, but he's punching out by rote muscle memory for a target X-distance away straight in front of his stance. I figure he's got it down so pat, that he's doing a minimalist front sight check as he's punching out... which is what I start to do on my second shot. Not that I'm claiming to be Miculek or any facsimile anywhere within that range. More in line with what Roo_ster mentions with a flash front sight check.
Miculek is the embodiment of a modernized Iaido martial artist, transitioned from sword to pistol.
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You still have to aim with snakeshot.
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I glued a hair curler to the top of my pistol and glued a piece of corner molding to the side of it for point shooting help... :rofl:
http://pointshooting.com/1aimaid.htm The owner of this site likes to troll gun forums....
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Chris,
I don't see the discussion in terms of "use -less- gun in the woods" than you would "on the street".
Instead it is "don't treat 2-300 pound thin-skinned predators like eastern black bears and cougars (or wolves and coyotes) like they are objectively harder to reach the vitals of than a 200-300 pound thin-skinned man."
Back East there is simply no -need- for a real big bore to reliably stop -any- of their 4-legged threats.
A proper bullet, heavy for caliber and designed to maintain its weight while penetrating deeply, is sufficient in any "major" handgun caliber (9mm and up, though I wouldn't recommend 9mm in favor of a larger caliber in the same platform if you had any choice).
That those proper bullets might be "specialty" is unimportant as you aren't going to be shooting a bunch of them, just enough to check for reliable functioning in your existing gun and provide some reloads.
That realistic assessment of actual need allows you to carry the very same gun, for which you already have accessories and with which you have already developed the proper muscle memory to draw and hit quickly under pressure due to your "people shooting" training, instead of dropping a bundle on a whole new gun and accessories you will rarely use.
I disagree black bears are way tougher then people give them credit for. They will absorb several not so well placed shots to the body from high powered rifles and still wipe their ass with your scalp.
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Close to a full second, with a lightweight .45.
My dog can cover a lot of ground in a second. It can be the difference between getting a shot off at all, or not. Add in the speed a coyote or javelina can bring to the equation running to meet him, and we're talking about a 50-75 foot separation versus a merged ball of flesh, teeth and tusks.
I'm pretty bad at it with a .44. It's been a couple years since I've worked seriously at it with that gun, though. And that's the point I'm trying to make. The .44 takes a lot of work to maintain defensive pistol proficiency.
Maybe you need to work on dog training instead trick shooting.
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I disagree black bears are way tougher then people give them credit for. They will absorb several not so well placed shots to the body from high powered rifles and still wipe their ass with your scalp.
So will a raccoon, or a poodle.
To stop any animal you have to get bullets into its brain, heart, or break bones. As long as the bullet will accomplish that you are done as far as projectile goes. The next requirement is on the shooter, to make sure those rounds are well-placed.
Assuming they have a bullet that will penetrate the comparatively light bones and thin skin of a black bear and rach the vitals the person drawing the same gun they usually carry, from the same holster they usually carry it in, looking at the same sight picture they can see with their eyes closed will -always- be able to put more effective well-placed rounds into that target faster than than they can out of an unfamiliar "bigger" gun out of an unfamiliar holster that they only carry a few times a year but which still will be ineffective if they miss.
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So will a raccoon, or a poodle.
To stop any animal you have to get bullets into its brain, heart, or break bones. As long as the bullet will accomplish that you are done as far as projectile goes. The next requirement is on the shooter, to make sure those rounds are well-placed.
Assuming they have a bullet that will penetrate the comparatively light bones and thin skin of a black bear and rach the vitals the person drawing the same gun they usually carry, from the same holster they usually carry it in, looking at the same sight picture they can see with their eyes closed will -always- be able to put more effective well-placed rounds into that target faster than than they can out of an unfamiliar "bigger" gun out of an unfamiliar holster that they only carry a few times a year but which still will be ineffective if they miss.
How many people are really that familiar with their normal carry piece. One of the reasons I haven't shot a deer (one the 1st shot) yet with a handgun is that its way easier by muscle memory for me to raise up a long gun then to draw from a holster.
I've shot way more rounds with a handgun via a drawing from a holster then I ever have with a long gun. I used to shoot steel every week, sometimes twice, all via timer, draw and fire from the holster. One would think it would be easier for me to draw the fire from a holster then to shoulder a rifle or shotgun.
Also if someone was going to carry a 44 mag into the woods that would have at least shot it enough to be familiar with it. Well one would hope.
I don't disagree with shot placement at all.
Sometime drink several cups of coffee, do some physical activity that raises your normal heartbeat by double for several minutes, do not slow down and then try to hit a paper plate at 21 feet with your familiar gun.
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How many people are really that familiar with their normal carry piece. One of the reasons I haven't shot a deer (one the 1st shot) yet with a handgun is that its way easier by muscle memory for me to raise up a long gun then to draw from a holster.
Also if someone was going to carry a 44 mag into the woods that would have at least shot it enough to be familiar with it. Well one would hope.
I don't disagree with shot placement at all.
Sometime drink several cups of coffee, do some physical activity that raises your normal heartbeat by double for several minutes, do not slow down and then try to hit a paper plate at 21 feet with your familiar gun.
I do stress drills all the time and you are still making my point for me.
If a person isn't the type to practice with the gun they carry everyday they will be hopeless with a one-off.
When you hunt you are usually at a longer range trying for a humane single shot kill from a good angle, defendive shooting is draw-flash aim- fire until it stops or its on top of you and you won't have a rifle if you've chosen the pistol for defense.Totally different dynamic except for stress being involved.
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I do stress drills all the time and you are still making my point for me.
If a person isn't the type to practice with the gun they carry everyday they will be hopeless with a one-off.
When you hunt you are usually at a longer range trying for a humane single shot kill from a good angle, defendive shooting is draw-flash aim- fire until it stops or its on top of you and you won't have a rifle if you've chosen the pistol for defense.Totally different dynamic except for stress being involved.
Most of the large mammals I have killed have been at 30 yards or less. Easily within handgun range with practice. Only really long distance kills I have had have been out in the western states. Most of the timber I hunt you can can't get a clean shot off farther than that because of the thick brush. I have shot a few whitetail deer at 150-200 yards with my MZL or slug gun, but those have been really rare opportunities for me.
You are saying use the gun you are comfortable withI can't disagree with that in practice. I'm saying use enough gun (and be proficient with it) Eastern US black bears are not as big as Alaskan black bears but they are fat and well fed, fat bears don't bleed out very well, dense fat can cause 9mm hollow points to expand before they reach vitals, 9mm fmj may not penetrate heavy bone, such as the skull.
I've had 250g MZL bullets explode hitting bone in a deer, this really pissed me off two years ago when I lost a really nice B&C buck because the bullet failed to break/penetrate the front shoulder. I found this out the following year when I shot a button buck in the chest and the bullet exploded on the ribs and just knocked the deer down, I ended up killing the deer with my knife because I didn't reload the MZL, very stupid on my part because it could of kicked the *expletive deleted*it out of me and cut me bad with its hooves. I have also switched from those bullets to Barnes solid coppers.
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Also if someone was going to carry a 44 mag into the woods that would have at least shot it enough to be familiar with it. Well one would hope.
I don't disagree with shot placement at all.
Sometime drink several cups of coffee, do some physical activity that raises your normal heartbeat by double for several minutes, do not slow down and then try to hit a paper plate at 21 feet with your familiar gun.
The fall bullseye pistol league has started, and instead of shooting my .22 target pistol or my S&W .38, I'm shooting my Ruger Security Six this season because that's what I carry -- I haven't practiced all summer, and if I'm gonna carry the thing I ought to be able to shoot it. Two weeks in and my scores are terrible, but getting better. Almost all are hitting the paper anyway. The light is dim and I'm using iron sights; that's part of it, but I am shooting target wadcutters right now and still flinching a little ;/ That, and no "muscle memory." Squeezing the trigger slowly as soon as the sights come on target instead of waiting for the sight picture to be perfect (then jerking the trigger or heeling the gun) helps, when I can force myself to do that.
My goal is by the end of the season to be shooting .38 +P service loads, shooting double action, and keep all of them in the circles -- would be nice if they were all in the black, but I'll be happy if all 30 shots are in the 6-ring even tho' that's a poor score.
I wonder if I should cut back on the coffee on Tuesdays?
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Most of the large mammals I have killed have been at 30 yards or less. Easily within handgun range with practice. Only really long distance kills I have had have been out in the western states. Most of the timber I hunt you can can't get a clean shot off farther than that because of the thick brush. I have shot a few whitetail deer at 150-200 yards with my MZL or slug gun, but those have been really rare opportunities for me.
You are saying use the gun you are comfortable withI can't disagree with that in practice. I'm saying use enough gun (and be proficient with it) Eastern US black bears are not as big as Alaskan black bears but they are fat and well fed, fat bears don't bleed out very well, dense fat can cause 9mm hollow points to expand before they reach vitals, 9mm fmj may not penetrate heavy bone, such as the skull.
I've had 250g MZL bullets explode hitting bone in a deer, this really pissed me off two years ago when I lost a really nice B&C buck because the bullet failed to break/penetrate the front shoulder. I found this out the following year when I shot a button buck in the chest and the bullet exploded on the ribs and just knocked the deer down, I ended up killing the deer with my knife because I didn't reload the MZL, very stupid on my part because it could of kicked the *expletive deleted* out of me and cut me bad with its hooves. I have also switched from those bullets to Barnes solid coppers.
I'm glad we agree. :)
Go to Buffalo Bore's website and look at their hard cast lead offerings in each caliber. I'm expressly not talking about defensive hollowpoints (people-style, though those are fine for cats and wolves) nor FMJs which are both just soft lead under the fairly soft jackets.
I'm talking heavy, hard bullets made to punch deep holes through layers of fat, muscle and skull bones. Two boxes of 20 rounds at a buck or so a round, one to test and one to carry in their carry gun in the woods, and the average, "might run into a predator, probably won't" casual hiker/regular CCer is going to be much better off than spending hundreds on a gun they'll carry a few times a year and almost certainly not put a lot of practice in with.
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Yes, Rex Applegate. You may feel WWII was some ancient time long long ago in a galaxy far far away and all, but Applegate and the men he trained used those skills to kill a lot of people and win a lot of fights. 1911's are antiques too, newer isn't always better. Knives are sooooo old, they must just be totally useless in a fight.
That said, answer me this. Vital area on a bad guy is X big. Sighted fire, hitting it takes N seconds. Unsighted takes N-0.5. Both are equally reliable. Why is unsighted worse?
It's all tools in the toolbox. Red dots are great, even if you don't want them for 600 yard shots and ghost ring sights are almost as good.
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And in Applegate's time sights, particuarly pistol sights, were small and crude. Look at original BHP and 1911 GI style sights. Damn near nothing, and usable only with a good deal of light. We acknowledge that what he was teaching at the time worked for what they had but there are better methods these days. Jeff Cooper started the revolution and it continues to this day. The modern shooting method provides aimed fire with excellent speed.
Today we have far better sights. We also have far better fighting methods when it comes to handguns, and much greater variety of excellent handguns suited for such use. No longer do we hold the pistol one handed nor do we shoot in a crouch, leaning forward, with a hand over our heart to "protect it". That was a shooting method from that era, too.
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And in Applegate's time sights, particuarly pistol sights, were small and crude. Look at original BHP and 1911 GI style sights. Damn near nothing, and usable only with a good deal of light. We acknowledge that what he was teaching at the time worked for what they had but there are better methods these days. Jeff Cooper started the revolution and it continues to this day. The modern shooting method provides aimed fire with excellent speed.
Today we have far better sights. We also have far better fighting methods when it comes to handguns, and much greater variety of excellent handguns suited for such use. No longer do we hold the pistol one handed nor do we shoot in a crouch, leaning forward, with a hand over our heart to "protect it". That was a shooting method from that era, too.
Did you mention Jeff Cooper?
It’s an axiom that hitting your target is your main concern, and the best way to hit is to use your sights, but circumstances do arise in which the need for speed is so great, and the range so short, that you must hit by pointing alone, without seeing your gun at all.
Pointer fire is not as hard to learn as sighting, once you realize it’s range limitations. using the 1911 auto-pistol I have found that I can teach the average infantryman to stay on a silhouette at 10 yards – using pointer fire in two shot bursts – more easily that I can get him into that 25 yard bullseye using slow fire and sights.
Of course this sort of shooting is strictly a way of obtaining body hits at essentially indoor ranges ( 30 feet and under) …. But up close pointer fire can be murderously effective, and it’s mastery is often the difference between life and death.
I own several of JC's books and consider them a very useful resource. Yes, The Modern Technique is his baby and I subscribe to it for the most part. But it is not named The Only Technique.
Then there is low-light shooting, where irons are of less or no use unless you have tritium night sights. At such times, knowing where your gun will hit might come in handy. (Unless we can assume all goblin encounters will be as well-lighted as a typical range at noon time.) I would also note that my distance vision has not deteriorated much over time, but the light I need to resolve my irons is greater than it used to be.
Handguns can be effective from 0m as bludgeoning weapons out to 100m with some practice. Assuming all shots will be in the sweet spot for standing two handed aimed fire is as big an assumption that all hand-to-hand encounters will be in accord with the rules set out by the Marquis of Queensbury.
I also practice aimed and point shooting off-hand, practice the manual of arms as if one or the other hand were out of commission, shoot from some goofy-looking positions (flat on back, rolled on side, kneeling, moving, facing away from the target, etc). Yes, I can look awfully undignified at times. Also, kinda humbling to see my effective range contract given sub-optimal conditions. (Yes, I was anal enough a few years back to build a radar plot showing the range I could hit a small target relative to my angle to the target. Maybe that is why I am an "anal"-yst.)
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I'm glad we agree. :)
Go to Buffalo Bore's website and look at their hard cast lead offerings in each caliber. I'm expressly not talking about defensive hollowpoints (people-style, though those are fine for cats and wolves) nor FMJs which are both just soft lead under the fairly soft jackets.
A lot of those are not safe in all modern firearms. Not disagreeing with you on the choice of bullet but I'd be pretty scared to run 9mm+p+ in my XD.
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Paradigm shift time!
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/bigfoot-existence-backed-dna-video-report-article-1.1473883
>357s and .40 short and weaks might be ok for kitty cats and fuzzy wuzzy black bears.
I'm going with .44 magnum or BIGGER! [ar15]
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A lot of those are not safe in all modern firearms. Not disagreeing with you on the choice of bullet but I'd be pretty scared to run 9mm+p+ in my XD.
Given that the XD is offered in .357Sig, I am not sure you have much to worry about. Perhaps the recoil & firing pin springs differ in 9mm vs .40S&W vs .357Sig, but I bet they are all available for purchase.
Huh, looks like the factory recoil spring for 9mm, .40, and .357 is the same in the 5" bbl version: 17lb
http://www.gunsprings.com/Semi-Auto%20Pistols/SPRINGFIELD/XD%205%20INCH/cID1/mID60/dID271
Well, here's why ^^^. A little something about 9mm, .357Sig, and the HS2000/XD:
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/ammo-can/29449-9mm-vs-9mm-p-vs-357-sig.html
The more you look, the more you learn, and I learned something today. Woo-hoo!
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I glued a hair curler to the top of my pistol and glued a piece of corner molding to the side of it for point shooting help... :rofl:
The guy put a lot of time into doing something a laser does much better . . . .
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Given that the XD is offered in .357Sig, I am not sure you have much to worry about. Perhaps the recoil & firing pin springs differ in 9mm vs .40S&W vs .357Sig, but I bet they are all available for purchase.
Huh, looks like the factory recoil spring for 9mm, .40, and .357 is the same in the 5" bbl version: 17lb
http://www.gunsprings.com/Semi-Auto%20Pistols/SPRINGFIELD/XD%205%20INCH/cID1/mID60/dID271
Well, here's why ^^^. A little something about 9mm, .357Sig, and the HS2000/XD:
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/ammo-can/29449-9mm-vs-9mm-p-vs-357-sig.html
The more you look, the more you learn, and I learned something today. Woo-hoo!
I got a 4" XD, I got mine before they offered the 5" in a stainless slide. I got mine within a year of the XD being released. I also think the instruction manual said not to shoot +p+ ammo.
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And in Applegate's time sights, particuarly pistol sights, were small and crude. Look at original BHP and 1911 GI style sights. Damn near nothing, and usable only with a good deal of light. We acknowledge that what he was teaching at the time worked for what they had but there are better methods these days. Jeff Cooper started the revolution and it continues to this day. The modern shooting method provides aimed fire with excellent speed.
Today we have far better sights. We also have far better fighting methods when it comes to handguns, and much greater variety of excellent handguns suited for such use. No longer do we hold the pistol one handed nor do we shoot in a crouch, leaning forward, with a hand over our heart to "protect it". That was a shooting method from that era, too.
So because some other people from that era did stupid things, all knowledge from that era is useless? Interesting.
I'll ask it again. If Method 1 allows you to get reliable hits on target in N seconds, and Method 2 allows you to get hits within the same accuracy bounds but in N - 0.5 seconds, how is Method 2 sub-optimal? Aside from having been started too long ago for your tastes?
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I got a 4" XD, I got mine before they offered the 5" in a stainless slide. I got mine within a year of the XD being released. I also think the instruction manual said not to shoot +p+ ammo.
The instruction manual in most pistols says to not shoot cast lead bullets or reloads either. =|
The Buffalo Bore round has been around a while and has been tested by the manufacturer in the Glock 19 and Browning HP, the former a 4" barrel and neither known for being overbuilt, without any notice of "Ruger only" like some of his .44 Magnum loads.
The XD 4" also comes in .40 S&W and .357 Sig as well and those pressures are not out of line with +p+.
Not directly pertinent but the .460 Rowland conversion for the XD .45 is a drop-in rechambered barrel with compensator and a heavier recoil spring, the gun otherwise remains the same and that is a fairly big pressure change/recoil impulse itself.
In any event, not being comfortable shooting a given type of factory-loaded ammunition is a personal choice, it doesn't impact what others might choose to do given their other calculations of risk. Particularly when the whole idea is that the "woods round" would be carried infrequently and probably shot less.
Anyway, we can probably call our discussion well-fleshed out and amiably concluded at this point if you like. =D
I don't want to sound all strident, in point of fact I spent the last year going over the "what to do for a woods gun" question myself. I trimmed down to .45 in the 1911 platform as my regular carry gun a while ago and would borrow my buddy's 629 for the field. I figured I should stick with what I know, since I barely get enough practice in with the carry guns (the "all the time" on stress training was hyperbole, more like "consistently infrequently" ;) ).
So, I decided to go with always having a mag of .45 +P hardcast handy for "around town" and the .460 for real woods or knowing I'm going by salmon streams and such in town when the bears are out.
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The instruction manual in most pistols says to not shoot cast lead bullets or reloads either. =|
The Buffalo Bore round has been around a while and has been tested by the manufacturer in the Glock 19 and Browning HP, the former a 4" barrel and neither known for being overbuilt, without any notice of "Ruger only" like some of his .44 Magnum loads.
The XD 4" also comes in .40 S&W and .357 Sig as well and those pressures are not out of line with +p+.
Not directly pertinent but the .460 Rowland conversion for the XD .45 is a drop-in rechambered barrel with compensator and a heavier recoil spring, the gun otherwise remains the same and that is a fairly big pressure change/recoil impulse itself.
In any event, not being comfortable shooting a given type of factory-loaded ammunition is a personal choice, it doesn't impact what others might choose to do given their other calculations of risk. Particularly when the whole idea is that the "woods round" would be carried infrequently and probably shot less.
Anyway, we can probably call our discussion well-fleshed out and amiably concluded at this point if you like. =D
I don't want to sound all strident, in point of fact I spent the last year going over the "what to do for a woods gun" question myself. I trimmed down to .45 in the 1911 platform as my regular carry gun a while ago and would borrow my buddy's 629 for the field. I figured I should stick with what I know, since I barely get enough practice in with the carry guns (the "all the time" on stress training was hyperbole, more like "consistently infrequently" ;) ).
So, I decided to go with always having a mag of .45 +P hardcast handy for "around town" and the .460 for real woods or knowing I'm going by salmon streams and such in town when the bears are out.
What do you want to debate about next?
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What do you want to debate about next?
Something less controversial... Vatican 2?
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Something less controversial... Vatican 2?
I was thinking 9mm vs 45 acp. :)
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So because some other people from that era did stupid things, all knowledge from that era is useless? Interesting.
I didn't say that and you damn well know it but I do so love how you like to draw conclusions like that.
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I was thinking 9mm vs 45 acp. :)
No, no, that is too simple. Gun oil vs. gun grease?
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No, no, that is too simple. Gun oil vs. gun grease?
Gun lube vs non-gun-lube.
I know...
CORNBREAD
[popcorn]
Chris
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CORNBREAD
[popcorn]
Chris
*expletive deleted*it just got real
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*expletive deleted* just got real
What is the controversy?
Everyone who knows cornbread knows that Jiffy Cornbread mix covers all cornbread needs.
:angel:
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What is the controversy?
Everyone who knows cornbread knows that Jiffy Cornbread mix covers all cornbread needs.
:angel:
*twitch*
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Gun lube vs non-gun-lube.
I know...
CORNBREAD
[popcorn]
Chris
no WD-40 vs 3 in 1 oil. :)
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I didn't say that and you damn well know it but I do so love how you like to draw conclusions like that.
You were denigrating a method because of its age, and then threw in a remark about an unrelated technique also in use at the time. It was a silly attempt to discredit one thing because of its proximity to another. Don't get all bent out of shape when I point out your logical fallacies.
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I was thinking 9mm vs 45 acp. :)
<wookiesuit>.40! .40!</wookiesuit>
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I honestly did not expect an 8 page thread. So...
Best 4 inch .44 revolver?
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I honestly did not expect an 8 page thread. So...
Best 4 inch .44 revolver?
29-2
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I honestly did not expect an 8 page thread. So...
Best 4 inch .44 revolver?
Either the Ruger or S&W offerings are good guns. Personally I tend more towards the Ruger side of revolvers but they are a bit heavier (47 oz for the 4" Redhawk vs. 41oz for the 4" S&W 629. Personal preference, really.
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I vote for the Ruger since if worst comes to worst, you can simply thump the daylights out of the wildlife with it.
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I'ma have to throw the vote to Ruger as well on this one.
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Ruger can handle using heavier loads longer at the weight cost mentioned.
But since OTS 240 gr .44 mag HP ammo will do all you need, and the 629 can handle realistic limited use of powerhouse loads if you get the urge, I'd go with the 629 for weight, looks, and I like the grip and cylinder release better (if you have any other Smith/Taurus/Charter revos the cylinder release is the same motion, Ruger is a "push-in" button, so "training reason" too).
-But-, I'd go 5" because I think the gun looks better proportioned that way and, hey, 50 fps more or so.
I like the 3" K and L frames for the same aesthetic reason (that, and the full length ejector rod).
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I shoot nframe sw better than ruger redhawk. Might be because the greater selection of grip styles. Super redhawk requires a sling or gun bearer, just like xframe sw.
Same thing sw lframe vs ruger gp100. No diff in strength on those two, though.
44mag or 45colt 300gr nuclear loads are not too common, even nowadays. Not certain if for critter defense a lower vel 300gr load might be better. I recall numerous handloading articles where the author extolls a hard cast lswc or wfn at 1000fps as able to penetrate as far with less drama.
Either way, neither sw nor ruger is a bad choice. I also own rugers.
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44mag or 45colt 300gr nuclear loads are not too common, even nowadays
You always have the option of something heavier and hotter if you venture out west or up north.
My .45 load is 250g LFN over 10g Unique. Should be about 1000 fps.
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I would go with the S&W N-frame in a 4" because it has a reasonable gripframe. The Redhawk's gripframe is a bit too big, making most grips either too large or they place my hand too far below the gun, amplifying recoil. A Nill grip fixed this for me, but those are rare and tend to be expensive when found. I got lucky and found a guy selling them cheap on ebay a few years ago (as in $90).
For a field gun, I would go for a 629 for the stainless, but a regular 29 is nice if it fits the budget. Collectors have driven the price up though.
If your hands are large, then whatever fits your budget and is available.
The only short barrel Super Redhawk is the snubnose or a custom job.
I recall numerous handloading articles where the author extolls a hard cast lswc or wfn at 1000fps as able to penetrate as far with less drama.
Sounds like the article John Linebaugh wrote years ago.
Chris
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...I like the grip and cylinder release better (if you have any other Smith/Taurus/Charter revos the cylinder release is the same motion, Ruger is a "push-in" button, so "training reason" too).
I shoot both Ruger and S&W. The motion is close enough to be a non-issue.
Chris
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I shoot both Ruger and S&W. The motion is close enough to be a non-issue.
Chris
Same here. Its Colt (pull back) or Dan Wessons (latch forward of the cylinder) that are screwy. I slightly prefer the ruger pushbutton over the Smith push forward if only due to the similarity of dropping a semiauto pistol's mag
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Are there any alternatives or competitors to the glock 20? I'm in love with the idea of 12+ rounds of 10mm, but I'm not fond of Glocks, and I would definitely want to shoot lead bullets. Is there an XD10 yet?
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Same here. Its Colt (pull back) or Dan Wessons (latch forward of the cylinder) that are screwy.
Same here. I can't stand Colt's or DW's cylinder releases.
I slightly prefer the ruger pushbutton over the Smith push forward if only due to the similarity of dropping a semiauto pistol's mag
I started out with Ruger, but now have mostly S&W (8 vs 1), so I slightly prefer the S&W latch. I'm comfortable with either one though.
Chris
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Are there any alternatives or competitors to the glock 20? I'm in love with the idea of 12+ rounds of 10mm, but I'm not fond of Glocks, and I would definitely want to shoot lead bullets. Is there an XD10 yet?
What about a traditionally rifled barrel for that 20? It is my understanding the main issue with lead in a Glock is the rifling and need to clean the barrel more often when shooting lead. If you get an aftermarket barrel, that problem should go away (assuming they make an aftermarket 10mm barrel).
Chris
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Are there any alternatives or competitors to the glock 20? I'm in love with the idea of 12+ rounds of 10mm, but I'm not fond of Glocks, and I would definitely want to shoot lead bullets. Is there an XD10 yet?
Pretty much any well-built .45ACP of service auto size (4"bbl+) can handle .45Super with a recoil and firing pin spring change(1). I considered buying a 10mm a while back but decided against it, as if I wanted that level of power, I could spend $8 and convert my SW1911 5" all stainless to .45Super or .45SMC, or .45Sorta-Super.
I always thought a CZ90 would make a splendid platform for a .45Super.
http://www.realguns.com/archives/020.htm
If you hand load, .45Super would be a grand application for all that small primer-pocket .45ACP brass popping up the last few years.
(1) On second thought: I would likely stick to autos that also come in 10mm, all-steel, or polymer service autos that are known as hella stout like the HK MK23-sized .45ACP. 10mm has similar muzzle vel as .45Super in the same wt bullet, but requires higher pressures to get it done.
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Are there any alternatives or competitors to the glock 20? I'm in love with the idea of 12+ rounds of 10mm, but I'm not fond of Glocks, and I would definitely want to shoot lead bullets. Is there an XD10 yet?
God, I wish.
There's EAA with their Witness line, though that's DA/SA with an exposed hammer rather than striker fired. But you wouldn't need to get an aftermarket barrel like you do for Glocks, if you want to shoot lead.
The Redhawk's gripframe is a bit too big, making most grips either too large or they place my hand too far below the gun, amplifying recoil. A Nill grip fixed this for me, but those are rare and tend to be expensive when found. I got lucky and found a guy selling them cheap on ebay a few years ago (as in $90).
Chris
You gotta try out the Hogue Bantam grip for the Redhawk. It's cheap. About $30. And effing fantastic. Wrist gets a LOT higher on the grip, it situates the shooting hand web between thumb and trigger finger really high on the grip frame right behind the hammer.
Big problem I had with my nice Hogue hardwood monogrip was the lowness of it. I had to shift my grip to thumb the hammer for an SA shot, and I didn't like how low I had to hold the grip for a DA shot.
It's also MUCH slimmer than the monogrip.
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Are there any alternatives or competitors to the glock 20? I'm in love with the idea of 12+ rounds of 10mm, but I'm not fond of Glocks, and I would definitely want to shoot lead bullets. Is there an XD10 yet?
XD10? Only speculated about on gunboards, AFAIK.
EAA Witness and some 1911s, AFAIK, are your other choices in 10mm.
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What about a traditionally rifled barrel for that 20? It is my understanding the main issue with lead in a Glock is the rifling and need to clean the barrel more often when shooting lead. If you get an aftermarket barrel, that problem should go away (assuming they make an aftermarket 10mm barrel).
Chris
Lonewolf, a hundred bucks or so. Add a bit if you need them to ream out your chamber a bit. Not a great expense in the long run. I like having mine in my G19, for shooting lead.
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XD10? Only speculated about on gunboards, AFAIK.
EAA Witness and some 1911s, AFAIK, are your choices in 10mm.
S&W 10x6
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I was thinking current production.
There's also the S&W 610. ( think that's the number.)
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Pretty much any well-built .45ACP of service auto size (4"bbl+) can handle .45Super with a recoil and firing pin spring change(1). I considered buying a 10mm a while back but decided against it, as if I wanted that level of power, I could spend $8 and convert my SW1911 5" all stainless to .45Super or .45SMC, or .45Sorta-Super.
Good point, because I loved my XD45, although the internets say the 10mm G20 has slightly moar dakka and 2 more of them.
Why firing pin spring?
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Good point, because I loved my XD45, although the internets say the 10mm G20 has slightly moar dakka and 2 more of them.
Why firing pin spring?
1 If you use a more powerful recoil spring, the slide will come back into battery faster. That might cause an inertial FP with original FP spring to make an appearance premature-like. BAD THINGS can then happen. Like full-auto until the mag is empty. Or a FP with FP safety to hammer into the safety.
2. More violent recoil could catch a FP with original FP spring still hanging out near/in the primer. Could cause nasty things to happen to the primer, slow down the works, and cause a FTE or some other thing nearly as bad as #1.
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I was at the local Cabela's today, where I saw the Ruger Alaskan revolver (new) with a list price of $ 974 (!). I also saw a used New Vaquero in .45 LC for $ 680. I have been keeping my eye out for a New Vaquero in .357, but have not seen one in ages.