Pondering a big bore pistol for hiking

[bedlamite]

Apparently a .357 may or maybe be adequate.

With a 4" 357 and some Cor-Bon you're good anywhere this side of Grizzly/Moose country

[Balog]

There's also the difference between "handgun hunting" range and "sefld defense" range.

[Gewehr98]

I drew and hip-shot twice while extending

They teach that at Appleseed, Pardner?  

Ditto on the .44 Special.  Magnums are cool, but not always necessary.

[Matthew Carberry]

As Tam pointed out recently in a blog response, the .357 Mag, .41 Mag, .44 Spl, and .44 Mag will all shoot through a bison with the proper loads, the question to be answered is what do you shoot well and want to carry?

To that list for auto's I'd add the 10mm and hot .45 (+P/Super) for anything short of grizzlies, and .45 WinMag and .460 Rowland for the big bears.

Note we're talking about defensive loads, not hunting or people loads, when we start talking about bear defense in particular.

You can -hunt- a relaxed anything with a nice broadside shot and time to aim with most expanding rounds in a whole bunch of calibers, but you wouldn't want to try to stop a charge with the same bullet in the same caliber. Going with something "off-the-shelf" is probably not the best choice.

Based on the experience and knowledge of people I trust up here anyway, for stuff only going a couple hundred pounds or so and thin-skinned I think you can easily over-think the problem.

[RevDisk]

With a 4" 357 and some Cor-Bon you're good anywhere this side of Grizzly/Moose country

This is actually what I was originally thinking. Wasn't sure if I was right. Well, not that specific brand of Cor-Bon.

[AZRedhawk44]

They teach that at Appleseed, Pardner?  

Ditto on the .44 Special.  Magnums are cool, but not always necessary.

Strange enough, Appleseed seems to be talking about getting into handgun stuff.  I'm not keen on the idea.  Enough muzzle discipline problems already with rifles.  I'll teach friends in very small 1:1 settings, but I don't want anything to do with a 1:5 ratio class and handguns.

I have to admit that set of hits on that snake was a combination of plain old stoopid luck, some training (this was at the peak of all my Tuesday Night Steel match attendance), and God taking pity on my dog.

[charby]

They teach that at Appleseed, Pardner?  

Ditto on the .44 Special.  Magnums are cool, but not always necessary.

.44 special and .40 S&W are pretty comparable in terms of energy.

[Jamisjockey]

There isn't much in this world a .357 mag won't take down. As an upside, you practice with .38's and if you're in snake country you can index a snakeshot into the first shot. 
I bought a Ruger GP100 slick just for this purpose.  Backcountry duty, center console duty etc.  It's a GP100 3" with bobbed hammer and fixed sights.

[charby]

There isn't much in this world a .357 mag won't take down. As an upside, you practice with .38's and if you're in snake country you can index a snakeshot into the first shot. 
I bought a Ruger GP100 slick just for this purpose.  Backcountry duty, center console duty etc.  It's a GP100 3" with bobbed hammer and fixed sights.

Maybe the old school pre lawyer hand load recipes for the .357 magnum. I shot a wounded flopping doe whitetail deer in the head with a .357 magnum to kill it and my 180g XTP 1100fps hand loads didn't exit, it did blow all the brain matter and the top of the skull in a nice little circle around the deer's head.

I'm not sure I'd want to take on a pissed off momma black bear with cubs with a .357 magnum.

[zxcvbob]

If you'd run it up to 1300 fps, it would penetrate even less.    A JSP or a heavy cast lead bullet would be a better choice.

[charby]

If you'd run it up to 1300 fps, it would penetrate even less.    A JSP or a heavy cast lead bullet would be a better choice.

I know but I ran out of case capacity with H110 to get more powder for speed. :)

Actually XTP bullets have pretty good penetration, not as good as a hard cast, but not bad. The bullet was stopped by the thick process on the back on the skull. I should have taken pictures. My 10mm mag with XTP bullets punched through the skull like butter, took out vertebrate. 200g at ~1350. I haven't gotten the chance to shoot a deer with my 454 yet, but I just acquired permission to hunt a really hot spot for deer for Iowa gun season, so I should be able to find out what it does. In a year or two I'll be able to report what the 454 does to a black bear when I finally draw a tag.

[AZRedhawk44]

Dang it, now I've got an itch to play with H110 and something in a 180gr hollowpoint.

Who has the deepest, nastiest flying ashtray out there in 180gr?  I want to blow the ever living frak out of some milk jugs, and breathe fire into the air.  Jacketed and can handle 1800-2000fps.

[bedlamite]

Have you got a 357 Redhawk? I wouldn't try that with anything less.

[mtnbkr]

When I had a 4" GP100, I was slinging 180gr XTPs at 1300fps.

I'm noticing something odd in threads like this.

When a person asks for a gun recommendation for protection against humans, that person is counseled to get something larger.  A 5-shot 38special is no good.  Get a high capacity 9mm, a 40, or a 45.  Meth addled bikers ya know.  But, when the discussion turns to wilderness carry, the recommendations take the opposite path.  Now you need a smaller, lower powered gun.  Don't get that 44, get the 358 or even 38.  Then someone will chime in about their 32H&RMag or 22lr.  Comparisons will be made to the relative likelihood of being attacked by animals, etc.  It seems more "logic" is applied to wilderness carry than "in town" carry.

Why?

Even a meth addled biker knows what a gun will do or will react when being shot.  Some measure of a gun's effectiveness is the human mind's reaction to "zomg!  I've been shot!".  Wild animals?  Not so much.  Their reaction is more like "Owie!  Something hurts.  I'm gonna fsck up that hairless ape over there!"

Then there is the recommendation for boutique or uncommon loads for the "smaller" caliber vs common, just-as-effective, off-the-shelf options for the bigger caliber.

You can spend $30 for 20-rnds of this hard to find (except via mail order or well stocked gun shops) ammo for the smaller gun, or $30 for 50-rnd boxes of WWB 44mag at Walmart.

Personally, I carry a 5-shot 38special "in town" because I know I'm unlikely to need it, but I have to keep it concealed.  When I'm in the woods, I tote a 44mag because if I need it, I can't rely on the sight of it to cause my attacker pause, nor will the attacker have a response to being shot unless the shot is incapacitating.  I need to stop the threat right.effing.now.  Concealment isn't a requirement.

I dunno, just something I noticed.  


Chris

[seeker_two]

Chris: I tend to notice the same thing. Usually, I ask what the person already has & lean more toward optimizing their ammo selection. You can use a 9mm for bear defense, but you should use heavy FMJ to do it.....just as with every other caliber you could carry. In most cases, there's no need to run out & buy another gun....unless you just really want another gun.

Another thing I advise is that any load that will work on bear/cougar/chupacabra/etc. will tend to work on humans just fine....no need to switch loads.

[charby]

When I had a 4" GP100, I was slinging 180gr XTPs at 1300fps.

I'm noticing something odd in threads like this.

When a person asks for a gun recommendation for protection against humans, that person is counseled to get something larger.  A 5-shot 38special is no good.  Get a high capacity 9mm, a 40, or a 45.  Meth addled bikers ya know.  But, when the discussion turns to wilderness carry, the recommendations take the opposite path.  Now you need a smaller, lower powered gun.  Don't get that 44, get the 358 or even 38.  Then someone will chime in about their 32H&RMag or 22lr.  Comparisons will be made to the relative likelihood of being attacked by animals, etc.  It seems more "logic" is applied to wilderness carry than "in town" carry.

Why?

Even a meth addled biker knows what a gun will do or will react when being shot.  Some measure of a gun's effectiveness is the human mind's reaction to "zomg!  I've been shot!".  Wild animals?  Not so much.  Their reaction is more like "Owie!  Something hurts.  I'm gonna fsck up that hairless ape over there!"

Then there is the recommendation for boutique or uncommon loads for the "smaller" caliber vs common, just-as-effective, off-the-shelf options for the bigger caliber.

You can spend $30 for 20-rnds of this hard to find (except via mail order or well stocked gun shops) ammo for the smaller gun, or $30 for 50-rnd boxes of WWB 44mag at Walmart.

Personally, I carry a 5-shot 38special "in town" because I know I'm unlikely to need it, but I have to keep it concealed.  When I'm in the woods, I tote a 44mag because if I need it, I can't rely on the sight of it to cause my attacker pause, nor will the attacker have a response to being shot unless the shot is incapacitating.  I need to stop the threat right.effing.now.  Concealment isn't a requirement.

I dunno, just something I noticed.  


Chris

What powder were you using, #9? I sold my GP-100 (to my uncle who pestered me for years for it) when I got my SRH. I was going to try different handgun magnum powders to get the speed up but the revolver is gone.

[charby]

Dang it, now I've got an itch to play with H110 and something in a 180gr hollowpoint.

Who has the deepest, nastiest flying ashtray out there in 180gr?  I want to blow the ever living frak out of some milk jugs, and breathe fire into the air.  Jacketed and can handle 1800-2000fps.

Be careful. You might be hard to find a 180g deep hollow point just because 180g of metal fills up the space on a .357 magnum hollow point. Plus I don't think any of them designed for .357 magnum will stay together at those speeds.

[RevDisk]

Looks like options are "probably good enough with .357 and premium ammo" or "definitely good to go for PA wild life with .44 mag and off the shelf common ammo". Most of the other options seem to be less common types of caliber, which may be just as good or better but slightly more uncommon.

Would everyone agree?

[MillCreek]

^^^^ I like it.

[zxcvbob]

I vote for a SAA-sized revolver in .45 Colt, or any .44 Mag stoked with 240+ grain .44 Specials.  Or a 1911 in .45 Super or .460 Rowland.  The .45's are the better choice, but it sounds like he might have the .44M already.

[charby]

Looks like options are "probably good enough with .357 and premium ammo" or "definitely good to go for PA wild life with .44 mag and off the shelf common ammo". Most of the other options seem to be less common types of caliber, which may be just as good or better but slightly more uncommon.

Would everyone agree?

Yes, but go for the .44 mag :)

[RevDisk]

Yes, but go for the .44 mag :)

Yea, likely will. Not thrilled with the prospect, but oh well. Now I have to sort through the various models. I'd ideally want something as streamlined as possible, and preferably compact but heavy. I want it to take up the least amount of space in my bag as possible, but weigh enough that the recoil is actually manageable. I'll look into shoulder holsters and the whatnot, probably make my own if necessary.

[Ben]

I'm noticing something odd in threads like this.

Chris

Really good observation. If we're hunting animals, we want them killed humanely. If we're protecting ourselves from animals though, it should be under the same theory as protecting ourselves from humans. We want to STOP them RIGHT NOW. Whether they die or not minutes later is irrelevant.

Rev probably has the most choices in a .44 if he chooses to go large caliber. While I love my Vaquero, sometimes I wish I went .44 vs .45 in it, so it matches my Marlin .44 rifle. Or wish I got the rifle in .45. I have a Winchester Trapper in .45 but don't like the rifle itself nearly as much as the Marlin. And I don't like my Super Blackhawk nearly as much as the Vaquero. Oh well.

[RevDisk]

Really good observation. If we're hunting animals, we want them killed humanely. If we're protecting ourselves from animals though, it should be under the same theory as protecting ourselves from humans. We want to STOP them RIGHT NOW. Whether they die or not minutes later is irrelevant.

Rev probably has the most choices in a .44 if he chooses to go large caliber. While I love my Vaquero, sometimes I wish I went .44 vs .45 in it, so it matches my Marlin .44 rifle. Or wish I got the rifle in .45. I have a Winchester Trapper in .45 but don't like the rifle itself nearly as much as the Marlin. And I don't like my Super Blackhawk nearly as much as the Vaquero. Oh well.

Aye, I would like to match it with a good lever gun while I'm at it.

[mtnbkr]

What powder were you using, #9? I sold my GP-100 (to my uncle who pestered me for years for it) when I got my SRH. I was going to try different handgun magnum powders to get the speed up but the revolver is gone.

H110.  No, I will not share the load as it was HOT.  I probably fired 500+ with no obvious negative effects, but it was not a book load or even close. 

Chris