Author Topic: Interesting scenario... What gun/caliber would you pick? (Read 8572 times)

Firethorn · « **on:** March 10, 2008, 09:30:25 AM »

I'm currently reading a story where the forces of hell are invading the world. The demons appear as both formed armies (think bronze age) and individuals conducting what are essentially raids/slaughters are concerns. They emerge from portals we currently have no means of tracking.

The armies of hell are stated to be 9,999 legions of 6,666 demons each.

Now, I don't want to prejudice stuff, but we're making suggestions to the author as to military production. The attacks are rapidly ramping up, and the military is looking to expand and adapt for the new threat.

On of the points I think you guys can help on is selecting the caliber and gun type for mass production to replace and or update current weapons to deal with the new threat. Currently the author is leaning towards retrofitting M16s with large high power uppers, but still hasn't come out with what weapon will be issued for homeland defense. It needs to be manufacturable in large numbers, easy to use, maintain, etc...

One of the plot points is that most people have ended up in hell even if they were good, so at some point we're looking at invading hell(we can already open a small, short duration portal for extremely limited times). What would you go with there? Terrain is, at least in the location we've reached is nasty mud.

The problem? While demons are certainly killable with mundane weaponry, they make Cape Buffalo look weak.

Current levels of toughness:

A full magazine of 5.56 at close range is frequently insufficient to stop one quickly enough to prevent friendly casualties.

One raiding a mall was hit by:
6 rounds of .32 ACP COM (go granny!)
9 rounds of .45 ACP COM

At this point the Demon was STILL attacking, though bleeding.

Then two hunters show up:
8 rounds of 30-06 from a sporterized M1 - while slowed, was still advancing. The demon was finally finished off by 3 rounds from a .416 Wby - though the first one resulted in a soft stop.

Back on the military side:
.50 BMG has shown itself to be effective in both sniper and machine guns.
Claymores, antitank mines, artillery, RPGs, missiles, rockets, and bombs have been shown to be effective.

280plus · « **Reply #1 on:** March 10, 2008, 09:40:11 AM »

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-38.htm

grin

Manedwolf · « **Reply #2 on:** March 10, 2008, 09:48:20 AM »

grislyatoms · « **Reply #3 on:** March 10, 2008, 09:48:46 AM »

Barret 82A1. Lots of mags. Fistful as bait. grin

K Frame · « **Reply #4 on:** March 10, 2008, 09:56:19 AM »

No gun.

My ex wife.

She could make Satan weep with fear.

AZRedhawk44 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 10, 2008, 09:57:38 AM »

I'd suggest retrofitting the M16 with the .458 SOCOM upper. You get 10rd capacity, semiautomatic fire, and a cartridge that can do the heavy, bone-crushing work you want done in a relatively cost effective package.

If that doesn't excite you, look at AR-10's with some sort of .338-08 or .356-08 hybrid overbore case based on the .308 brass. That would make an okay infantryman's rifle for doing battle with hordes of demons roughly as stoppable as an elephant or cape buffalo. Make the issued sidearm a Thompson Contender in the same caliber. Back up your units with .338 Lapua and .50BMG snipers/designated marksmen and the usual cannon, mortars, bombs and explosive toys.

Firethorn · « **Reply #6 on:** March 10, 2008, 10:10:38 AM »

Quote from: AZRedhawk44 on March 10, 2008, 08:57:38 AM

If that doesn't excite you, look at AR-10's with some sort of .338-08 or .356-08 hybrid overbore case based on the .308 brass. That would make an okay infantryman's rifle for doing battle with hordes of demons roughly as stoppable as an elephant or cape buffalo. Make the issued sidearm a Thompson Contender in the same caliber. Back up your units with .338 Lapua and .50BMG snipers/designated marksmen and the usual cannon, mortars, bombs and explosive toys.

Would you look at going away from the AR line?

Author is currently looking at .500 beowulf for existing military units and a number of members are agitating for a modified M1/M14 type weapon in .458 Win for homeland defense/invasion of hell.

Part of the argument is that shops that can't make AR parts can be more readily adapted to making the M14 parts, along with turning furniture factories towards producing the stocks.

Manedwolf · « **Reply #7 on:** March 10, 2008, 10:12:33 AM »

Quote from: Firethorn on March 10, 2008, 09:10:38 AM

Author is currently looking at .500 beowulf for existing military units and a number of members are agitating for a modified M1/M14 type weapon in .458 Win for homeland defense/invasion of hell.

"Sergeant, tell all the men to go to hell!"

Werewolf · « **Reply #8 on:** March 10, 2008, 10:17:15 AM »

Street Sweeper loaded with 3" Magnum Slugs ought'a do the trick.

Of Course you'd need special shock absorbing armor for the shooter's shoulder or you'd run out of shooters pretty quick.

On the other hand an army of 66 million demons would be pretty tough. Personally I'd just sic the God Squadders of all the various religions far and wide on 'em and let 'em preach the demons to death. Failing that the demons would undoubtedly retreat back to hell on their on accord just to get away from the drivel. If that just pisses them off and they render the preachin' fools into goo - well - we still win.

Or you could just gather up a million or so virgins (assuming you could find a million virgins) pack 'em all into as small an area as possible and let the demons know they were there. When the demons show up just nuke 'em with one of those 500 MegaTon H-Bombs the Russians made.

MechAg94 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 10, 2008, 10:21:13 AM »

Pump action shot guns with slugs for general issue. Add red dot sights if you have to.

458 SOCOM if you want something in AR.

Crew served weapons as much as possible.

Manedwolf · « **Reply #10 on:** March 10, 2008, 10:22:22 AM »

Quote from: Werewolf on March 10, 2008, 09:17:15 AM

Or you could just gather up a million or so virgins (assuming you could find a million virgins) pack 'em all into as small an area as possible and let the demons know they were there. When the demons show up just nuke 'em with one of those 500 MegaTon H-Bombs the Russians made.

No, then you'd get thetans running around contaminating people. Xenu tried that! cheesy

Paddy · « **Reply #11 on:** March 10, 2008, 10:25:44 AM »

I'm thinking something with a high rate of fire and fragmenting projectiles. A full auto shotgun in the 10-8 guage range with 4" shells loaded with 000 Buck.

Would that do it?

Manedwolf · « **Reply #12 on:** March 10, 2008, 10:27:23 AM »

10 gauge became functionally obsolete the moment 12 gauge 3" magnum and 3.5" super magnum came out. The super mag develops more pressure than the 10 gauge does.

I have a super mag 870. It's tolerable with the Knoxx copstock, otherwise it hurts.

cordex · « **Reply #13 on:** March 10, 2008, 10:32:01 AM »

My first thought is that I'd want to limit infantry engagements with hellspawn as much as possible. Seems that armored units, artillery and aircraft ought to handle the majority of contact wherever possible. I'm curious how a slug-loaded 12 gauge would perform against these mythical demons.

My second thought is that if I'm fighting against 66.6 million demons and I can open a gate to hell (where most of them presumably still are) for short time, I'm going to be shipping through as many of the most powerful nukes as I can get together. I don't care if most of the good, dead folks have ended up in hell already - they're already dead, and maybe if we send them back to the beginning of the line they'll have a shot at ending up in the right place. Nukes away!

Plus, if you were to invade hell given the assumptions we're making (nasty mud terrain, sporadic/unreliable communication and resupply, the aforementioned 66.6 million demon soldiers who live there) it would seem to be doomed from the start. Logistically, how are you going to keep those soldiers resupplied once they leave the mouth of the portal? Where are they going to get food, water, ammunition, fuel, batteries, spare parts, and all the other logistical necessities required to keep a group of men fighting? Bad ju-ju. Again with the nukes.

JDTHEWOLF · « **Reply #14 on:** March 10, 2008, 10:40:54 AM »

RFI .308...762x51 NATO...one shot=one kill rolleyes

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #15 on:** March 10, 2008, 10:41:02 AM »

What really matters is that weapons, reloads, first aid kits, and other supplies magically appear and reappear in handy spots.

Manedwolf · « **Reply #16 on:** March 10, 2008, 10:48:28 AM »

Quote from: fistful on March 10, 2008, 09:41:02 AM

What really matters is that weapons, reloads, first aid kits, and other supplies magically appear and reappear in handy spots.

Floating about a foot off the ground, rotating.

HankB · « **Reply #17 on:** March 10, 2008, 10:59:06 AM »

Quote

8 rounds of 30-06 from a sporterized M1 - while slowed, was still advancing. The demon was finally finished off by 3 rounds from a .416 Wby - though the first one resulted in a soft stop.

If 8 rounds from the '06 weren't enough to stop El Diablo Junior, but the .416 Wby did the trick, it sounds like it was entirely a matter of shot placement.

Sounds like someone was inspired by reading about the Posleen conflict . . .

Jamisjockey · « **Reply #18 on:** March 10, 2008, 11:01:50 AM »

Quote from: Mike Irwin on March 10, 2008, 08:56:19 AM

No gun.

My ex wife.

She could make Satan weep with fear.

I can't belive any of the rest of you even tried to keep this one going after that.....
Thread winner for sure!
laugh

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #19 on:** March 10, 2008, 11:14:33 AM »

Quote from: jamisjockey on March 10, 2008, 10:01:50 AM

Quote from: Mike Irwin on March 10, 2008, 08:56:19 AM

No gun.

My ex wife.

She could make Satan weep with fear.

I can't belive any of the rest of you even tried to keep this one going after that.....
Thread winner for sure!
laugh

Winner of the oldest, most over-played joke contest maybe.

AJ Dual · « **Reply #20 on:** March 10, 2008, 12:12:32 PM »

Quote from: HankB on March 10, 2008, 09:59:06 AM

Sounds like someone was inspired by reading about the Posleen conflict . . .

That was my first thought at reading this as well.

So other than Biblicaly nasty supernaturalness, the demons fight with old school bronze-age tech, mass attacks ordered by a master who cares nothing for his troops, and tactics designed to counter flaming sword wielding angels, and you need a "Volksweapon"?

Think the AA12, simplified as much as possible without sacrificing reliability for mass production, made open-bolt to avoid cook-off/melting so it can use all-plastic shotgun hulls like the now defunct ACTIV brand, using cheap pig-iron slugs to free up as much lead, copper, and brass for more important strategic use as possible. Frag-12 HE 12ga slugs are available as production allows.

If it's got crappy ergonomics and is too heavy? Too bad. It's millions of friggin demons, and everything we hold dear at stake. Deal. Noisy end towards the enemy. No go with God.

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=892

Manedwolf · « **Reply #21 on:** March 10, 2008, 12:16:56 PM »

Quote from: AJ Dual on March 10, 2008, 11:12:32 AM

Quote from: HankB on March 10, 2008, 09:59:06 AM

Sounds like someone was inspired by reading about the Posleen conflict . . .

That was my first thought at reading this as well.

So other than Biblicaly nasty supernaturalness, the demons fight with old school bronze-age tech, mass attacks ordered by a master who cares nothing for his troops, and tactics designed to counter flaming sword wielding angels, and you need a "Volksweapon"?

Think the AA12, simplified as much as possible without sacrificing reliability for mass production, made open-bolt to avoid cook-off/melting so it can use all-plastic shotgun hulls like the now defunct ACTIV brand, using cheap pig-iron slugs to free up as much lead, copper, and brass for more important strategic use as possible. Frag-12 HE 12ga slugs are available as production allows.

If it's got crappy ergonomics and is too heavy? Too bad. It's millions of friggin demons, and everything we hold dear at stake. Deal. Noisy end towards the enemy. No go with God.

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=892

AA-12? Hell with that. SAIGA-12!

It's a freaking Kalashnikov that fires 12-gauge, semi or full auto. It's sheet metal. It will work after being in the mud. It's CHEAP.

Boomhauer · « **Reply #22 on:** March 10, 2008, 01:07:54 PM »

A 4-Bore?

I've been reading Unintended Consequences today...

Quote

AA-12? Hell with that. SAIGA-12!

Tromix Saiga...

I'm thinking one of the Gatling guns, M2HBs, M240s, stuff like that...

Firethorn · « **Reply #23 on:** March 10, 2008, 04:27:12 PM »

Quote from: cordex on March 10, 2008, 09:32:01 AM

My first thought is that I'd want to limit infantry engagements with hellspawn as much as possible. Seems that armored units, artillery and aircraft ought to handle the majority of contact wherever possible. I'm curious how a slug-loaded 12 gauge would perform against these mythical demons.

They're working on that, however, what are you going to do if/when they manage to open a major portal somewhere like NYC, or even the increasing likelyhood of individual attacks in places like malls.

Quote

My second thought is that if I'm fighting against 66.6 million demons and I can open a gate to hell (where most of them presumably still are) for short time, I'm going to be shipping through as many of the most powerful nukes as I can get together. I don't care if most of the good, dead folks have ended up in hell already - they're already dead, and maybe if we send them back to the beginning of the line they'll have a shot at ending up in the right place. Nukes away!

The portal has only been successfully opened once so far, and into the closest equivalent of indignant friendly forces available(some escaped dead souls).

Quote

Plus, if you were to invade hell given the assumptions we're making (nasty mud terrain, sporadic/unreliable communication and resupply, the aforementioned 66.6 million demon soldiers who live there) it would seem to be doomed from the start. Logistically, how are you going to keep those soldiers resupplied once they leave the mouth of the portal? Where are they going to get food, water, ammunition, fuel, batteries, spare parts, and all the other logistical necessities required to keep a group of men fighting? Bad ju-ju. Again with the nukes.

Hell's teaming with friendlies held in the equivalent of the biggest, nastiest POW camp ever. With even the forces being diverted right now, we'll likely be able to start freeing souls because the guards are the equivalent of reserves - who are now being called up, leaving gaps in coverage.

Update - it was stated that the 30.06 would have killed it, it was just on it's 'last gasp'.

The demons are generally quite fast on foot, wouldn't we want the extra range rifles give over shotguns? Would 000 buck even penetrate enough at anything longer than 'point blank' ?

But I'll pass on the proposal.

Tuco · « **Reply #24 on:** March 10, 2008, 05:22:38 PM »

Quote from: Manedwolf on March 10, 2008, 09:27:23 AM

10 gauge became functionally obsolete the moment 12 gauge 3" magnum and 3.5" super magnum came out. The super mag develops more pressure than the 10 gauge does.

Nonsense!

Applying that same (il) logic, the 3"- 410 is ballistically superior to the 28 gauge.
High pressures in shotgun loads deform shot, punish the shooter and degrade patterns.

The 3.5" 12 gauge became functionally obsolete the moment Bismuth and Tungsten shot came out.

NOW, I admit were talking about the un-dead here, so things might be different at the target.

As an experienced shotgunner, I'd rather shoot a 10 gauge over any "Magnum" gauge at anything alive or dead, but to each his own. rolleyes

News:

Author Topic: Interesting scenario... What gun/caliber would you pick? (Read 8572 times)

Paddy