Author Topic: The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?  (Read 36171 times)

MillCreek

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The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?
« on: March 01, 2013, 09:15:46 PM »
So lots of video the last few days with the Pope retiring.  I saw several pictures of the Swiss Guard in their ceremonial 15th century uniforms standing post with their halberds. So I can't help but wonder if they keep the stabby and the slashy parts sharp, just in case they have to skewer or hack some miscreant.

I saw a documentary on the Guard once, and they have the very finest of SIG firearms at their disposal, and they seem pretty highly trained.  But the documentary was sadly lacking on info regarding their competency with the 15th century manual of arms.
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Re: The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2013, 09:57:29 PM »
I'll see if I can find the story, but I once read that the halberds aren't just decorative, and they do train with them.  Article also indicated that they have a holster system for the Sigs under that ceremonial garb.
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Re: The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2013, 03:46:15 PM »
There are a number of different ways a handgun could be concealed under that uniform...
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Re: The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2013, 04:17:45 PM »
There are a number of different ways a handgun could be concealed under that uniform...

Or an SBR...

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Re: The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2013, 04:25:31 PM »
Can't speak to the actual edge sharpness, but the nature of the weapon doesn't really require it. Properly employed, even fairly blunt, the impact of a spearing point or axing head would be unpleasant for an armored opponent, much less an unarmored enemy. A more dull edgee is actually more useful against armor in some cases, being more likely to penetrate or crush than turn.

A longsword with no appreciable edge can cut. Adding the momentum of a polearm is that much more dangerous. The idea of being "poleaxed" to describe intense physical disruption is still fairly common usage centuries after the weapons went out of regular use in combat.
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Re: The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2013, 02:57:09 AM »
Can't speak to the actual edge sharpness, but the nature of the weapon doesn't really require it. Properly employed, even fairly blunt, the impact of a spearing point or axing head would be unpleasant for an armored opponent, much less an unarmored enemy. A more dull edgee is actually more useful against armor in some cases, being more likely to penetrate or crush than turn.

A longsword with no appreciable edge can cut. Adding the momentum of a polearm is that much more dangerous. The idea of being "poleaxed" to describe intense physical disruption is still fairly common usage centuries after the weapons went out of regular use in combat.

This.

The Model 1861 cutlass that was standard in US Navy armories until 1949 was issued with a blunt edge. It was a hacking weapon, not a slicing one. Also pokey when needed.

ETA: Correction, the Model 1861 was apparently succeeded by the Model 1917.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 03:05:01 AM by kgbsquirrel »

roo_ster

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Re: The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2013, 08:10:34 AM »
This.

The Model 1861 cutlass that was standard in US Navy armories until 1949 was issued with a blunt edge. It was a hacking weapon, not a slicing one. Also pokey when needed.

ETA: Correction, the Model 1861 was apparently succeeded by the Model 1917.

Designed by Patton, IIRC.  Who also liked to design new uniforms.
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Re: The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2013, 06:42:22 PM »
Designed by Patton, IIRC.  Who also liked to design new uniforms.

Patton designed the 1913 cavalry "saber" that was a straight pokey-thing along the lines of a short lance.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_1913_Cavalry_Saber

It saw duty in busting up the Bonus March of 1932.  http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/bonus-march.htm

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Re: The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2013, 08:08:41 PM »
Someone whacks you with a big enough lump of metal, sharpness doesn't really matter.
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Re: The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2013, 08:54:17 PM »
I'd bet the whole "Reach out and hook a leg, yanking you to the ground"-move with the halberds would be one of their very first go-to techniques for someone making trouble.
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Re: The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2013, 12:00:37 AM »
Patton designed the 1913 cavalry "saber" that was a straight pokey-thing along the lines of a short lance.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_1913_Cavalry_Saber

It saw duty in busting up the Bonus March of 1932.  http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/bonus-march.htm

stay safe.

Neat wiki article.
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Re: The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2013, 12:25:58 AM »
Patton designed the 1913 cavalry "saber" that was a straight pokey-thing along the lines of a short lance.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_1913_Cavalry_Saber

It saw duty in busting up the Bonus March of 1932.  http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/bonus-march.htm

stay safe.

You know... It would have been a HUGE psy-ops win if we'd outfitted some of our more visible combat arms MOS's fighting AWOT in places like Iraq and Afghanistan with nifty swords, and some basic training and a few moves should it prove handy or a last resort in CQC.

I think some of the various factions of ROP would have soiled themselves.  =D
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Re: The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2013, 03:48:08 AM »
Because a sword is scarier than a Bradley.  And easy to use well with minimal recent training.  And isn't bulky and likely to catch on everything.  And Soldiers aren't already carrying a ton of way more useful crap.  And fighting goes hand to hand so often.  And Soldiers have nothing better to do before a deployment than learn how to swing a sword they'll never use.

(Pardon the snark.  Being up until 03:00 doing homework disagrees with me.)

Pharmacology

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Re: The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2013, 04:54:29 AM »
Pole arms generate *immense*  force when utilized properly.


A razor edge isn't really necessary as others have pointed out

MicroBalrog

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Re: The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2013, 05:12:45 AM »
Because a sword is scarier than a Bradley.

Yes, it is.

There are studies to that end.

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And isn't bulky and likely to catch on everything.

You need a better sword.

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 And fighting goes hand to hand so often.  

Yes, actually it does.

Not every day, but soldiers and special operatives learn hand-to-hand skills for a reason.

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And Soldiers have nothing better to do before a deployment than learn how to swing a sword they'll never use.

Just tell the Gurkas that.

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Re: The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2013, 10:01:43 AM »
i wonder how big of a taser powersupply you could mount in a pole arm
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Re: The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2013, 02:03:18 PM »
Yes, it is.

Interesting cultural tid-bit from my time in Afghanistan: The locals were more scared of a pistol in hand, than a .50 cal MG mounted on a humvee. Bit of a popular phobia left over from the Soviet occupation. Pretty much the pistols came out when they were lining people up against the wall.

So pistol = someone is going to die right effing now, and if you're close enough to see it, it's probably you.

An anecdote of this came about when I was at Camp Lightning. One of the sanitized-uniform-types was trying to stop an LN to question him. Local kept waving his hand at the guy while jabbering away in Pashtu and walking on. SF guy's buddy points an M4 at the LN. Local keeps on walking. Second buddy up in the truck unlatches the Ma Deuce and swings it to bear on the local. Guy still keeps on walking and waving. Finally, SF dude pulls his 1911. That got the local guy's undivided attention right freaking fast and he was suddenly very eager to answer SFDood's questions.

Fitz

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Re: The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2013, 02:23:46 PM »
Interesting cultural tid-bit from my time in Afghanistan: The locals were more scared of a pistol in hand, than a .50 cal MG mounted on a humvee. Bit of a popular phobia left over from the Soviet occupation. Pretty much the pistols came out when they were lining people up against the wall.

So pistol = someone is going to die right effing now, and if you're close enough to see it, it's probably you.

An anecdote of this came about when I was at Camp Lightning. One of the sanitized-uniform-types was trying to stop an LN to question him. Local kept waving his hand at the guy while jabbering away in Pashtu and walking on. SF guy's buddy points an M4 at the LN. Local keeps on walking. Second buddy up in the truck unlatches the Ma Deuce and swings it to bear on the local. Guy still keeps on walking and waving. Finally, SF dude pulls his 1911. That got the local guy's undivided attention right freaking fast and he was suddenly very eager to answer SFDood's questions.

I experienced this too.

Point a rifle at someone? No *expletive deleted*s given.

Point a handgun? INSTANT compliance.
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AJ Dual

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Re: The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2013, 04:06:38 PM »
I thought the handgun thing was common everywhere in the middle east?

I remember some video from gulf war one where Americans are thing some Iraqis prisoner, they're on their knees begging because he has his M9 out, but he's just got it out so he can pat them down one handed quasi-LEOstyle...  =D
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Re: The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2013, 07:19:29 PM »
Well, you know what they say. A halberd in the eye and fight's over. ;)
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Re: The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2013, 10:50:14 PM »
I experienced this too.

Point a rifle at someone? No *expletive deleted* given.

Point a handgun? INSTANT compliance.

There are some interesting cultural implications and inferences with different weapons.  A machete is a tool here in America,, but in many parts of Africa, it is a weapon of terror, of genocide.  In Central America, a handgun is a badge of authority as much as it is a weapon.  In America,, the switchblade is not a cutting tool, but the weapon of a criminal.  Funy how a culture can add so much meaning to just a tool.
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freakazoid

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Re: The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2013, 10:55:11 AM »
Because a sword is scarier than a Bradley.  And easy to use well with minimal recent training.  And isn't bulky and likely to catch on everything.  And Soldiers aren't already carrying a ton of way more useful crap.  And fighting goes hand to hand so often.  And Soldiers have nothing better to do before a deployment than learn how to swing a sword they'll never use.

(Pardon the snark.  Being up until 03:00 doing homework disagrees with me.)

This guy carried a broadsword, and a longbow with arrows.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill
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Re: The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2013, 11:02:52 AM »
As the Pacific War was still on, Churchill was sent to Burma[2], where the largest land battles against Japan were being fought. By the time Churchill reached India, Hiroshima and Nagasaki had been bombed and the war ended. Churchill was said to be unhappy with the sudden end of the war, saying: "If it wasn't for those damn Yanks, we could have kept the war going another 10 years."  :facepalm:

 :lol:
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Re: The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2013, 11:25:47 AM »
This guy carried a broadsword, and a longbow with arrows.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill
 =D
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Re: The Swiss Guard at the Vatican: halberds sharp?
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2013, 01:11:35 PM »
Lotta guys in my BN carried machetes or other large knives.
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