Author Topic: I Think I Just Found Hope for Democrats  (Read 3158 times)

Waitone

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I Think I Just Found Hope for Democrats
« on: October 04, 2006, 06:45:34 AM »
Very interesting site.  

http://www.freedomdemocrats.org/
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds. It will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
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CAnnoneer

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I Think I Just Found Hope for Democrats
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2006, 07:29:43 AM »
I used to think this way too but not anymore.

Clinton did not really balance the budget. He just significantly decreased the rate of borrowing. That happened to combine with the computer, internet, and telecom booms, and so, things looked more peachy. But, the dirty secret is that to accomplish that, he also neglected the military, perhaps criminally.

In the current environment, with the WOT going on, it is very difficult not to have a big military budget. Things add up while cutting corners may put politicians on the chopping block. In addition, the economy was not as strong after the 2000 collapse, so revenues were down. Even now, people are talking about "jobless recovery" and "inflated volume by speculative trading", while major manufacturers are shutting down plants. So, while I do not agree that "deficits do not matter", I also see significant differences in the two political and economic situations.

"Deficits do not matter" is not true for the common American, but if you think about it, you will see that it is true from the government's perspective. If you and I borrow money from the bank, we had better pay interest and had better return the principal eventually. We cannot generate inflation to devalue our debt. USG on the other hand CAN. It is so big a borrower that by borrowing and spending, they can and do devalue the dollar, thereby shrinking the debt in real terms. The government does not care about inflation nearly as much as anybody else, because most of its assets are physical while its income are taxes that automatically readjust regardless of inflation. So, yes, they do not care about deficits.

The people that should care about deficits, debt, and inflation are the commoners, because for most of them, their assets are in their one house and in savings accounts. The savings accounts will be devalued by inflation unless interest rates go up significantly, while the house value might be saved by real estate growth but the one house is not really liquid because they have to live someplace. Furthermore, the commoner has to worry about tax increases levied from him to "remedy the situation", while the prols and the aristocrats pay no taxes. Finally, the commoner must worry about depression and losing one's job or business.

It's good to be USG.

Realistically, the "fiscal conservative" Dems cannot change the above unless WOT is somehow won quickly. In and of themselves, pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan are not "victories", especially if followed by terrorist/fundamentalist takeovers. THAT would be delaying the inevitable. In addition, the Dems have no meaningful plans, and if you observe them carefully, you will see that most are stuck in the 1990s while some are stuck in the 1960s and 1970s. Most of them believe that somehow the world can be made turn back into the "golden era of Clintonianism", but they tacitly ignore all of the above. Finally, most of them simply do not have the stomach to fight the terrorists by effective means and thus cannot produce a meaningful wartime policy.

280plus

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I Think I Just Found Hope for Democrats
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2006, 10:26:48 AM »
Quote
Hope for Democrats
Impossible...
Avoid cliches like the plague!

Antibubba

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« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2006, 03:01:06 PM »
280plus said:

Hope for Democrats

Impossible...

Quite the contrary, Democrats have all the hope in the world.


It's strategy, policy, and plans they lack.
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Bogie

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« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2006, 07:38:08 AM »
The democrats have a strategy... It's "Vote for Anyone But a Republican."

And it is working.
 
Their candidates don't seem to together, but they're gonna have four years, or longer, to really muck up our world.
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The Rabbi

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« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2006, 07:50:30 AM »
All the Dems really need to do is sit back and watch the GOP destroy itself.  The GOP has been its own worst enemy for the last 4 years.  Maybe some time in opposition will get them to thinking that returning to the Reagan principles of less government and less spending is an election winner, despite the polls.
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charby

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« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2006, 08:00:31 AM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
All the Dems really need to do is sit back and watch the GOP destroy itself.  The GOP has been its own worst enemy for the last 4 years.  Maybe some time in opposition will get them to thinking that returning to the Reagan principles of less government and less spending is an election winner, despite the polls.
Republicans are doing the same thing, Democrats aren't getting centralized either.

I wish we had a Barry Goldwater thinker in charge of the party.
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CAnnoneer

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« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2006, 12:31:08 PM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
The GOP has been its own worst enemy for the last 4 years.  Maybe some time in opposition will get them to thinking that returning to the Reagan principles of less government and less spending is an election winner, despite the polls.
The Rep have been taken over by neocons and the Dems by leftists. Each of those controls the respective party by money. Each party can spend an arbitrary amount of time in opposition with no tangible difference in their subsequent behavior.

Proof: the Dems have been in opposition for how many years already? Are they getting any less left? I'd say the opposite is true. Yes, they try to put on a "moderate" face but cannot keep the mask on all the time, and so only further hurt their credibility.

I can't see why it would be any different for the Reps. People were fed up, so the neocons fed them what they wanted to hear, the neocons got elected, and where are we now? If the Dems win, the Reps will sulk a bit, the neocons will give a bunch of empty promises, get reelected, break their promises, so the Dems win... And round and round we go down the statist spiral.

Bogie

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« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2006, 12:33:17 PM »
The Republicans have been self-destructing ever since the religious right defected from the Democrats back in the seventies.
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The Rabbi

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« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2006, 03:28:18 PM »
I am wondering who the "Neo-cons" are who have taken over the Republican Party.
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grampster

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« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2006, 04:16:20 PM »
Republicans should change their name to Rino.  The Dems should change their name to Socialist.  Or better yet why not condense them into Rinocialist and let them pick their own ruling members and take the money we save on elections and put it in a fund "For the Children".  

I don't think I've ever been so discouraged with our political process.  The present campaign is like watching Saturday Night Live. No, change that to Living Saturday Night Live.  Our political reality defies definition or description.  I've been sitting here for a couple of hours trying to put into words what I'm seeing being played out and I'm at a loss for words.  My frustration level started to ramp up a couple of month ago and now I just seem to sigh a lot and shake my head.

America is accused of being an Empire or a Bully or both.  Yet we're being a poor excuse for both.  On the one hand we have an administration that started off on the right foot  when circumstances put us in harms way and then promptly began muddling around trying to wage a sanitized war and be not only a nation builder but a region builder without using all the tools that are available.  Forceful direction is good.  Bullheadedness is not.  A good deal of the people in the area are reasonably accepting of what we're trying to do, a good deal don't give a rat's behind, and a number of them would rather die, blow things up and kill people.  North Korea has nukes and is led by a certifiable moonbat.  Iran is beginning to remember its glorious pre AD past (and it was glorious) but is under the influence of a narrow cult of Islamic fundamentalism.  Serious nationalism with a religious ferver that worships death.  Oh that's a really good combination.  And they are influencing many people in many places.  And no one is on the same page in West.  

On the other hand the loyal opposition is not loyal and is determined to grab the reigns of power (read money and control) at any expense, by any means and damn the consequences.  They actually brag about not having any solutions to any problem by proclaiming "Were not in power, so we don't need to provide solutions."
I think that moonbat that is in charge of the Democrat National Committee actually said that.  I'm not sure it was him, but one of their "leaders" did awhile back.  Watching and listening to these people is like watching a bunch of 6th graders play KeepAway.

This is not a time for the good guys to be playing grabass with each other.

I think I'm going to brew some tea now.
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charby

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« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2006, 04:20:01 PM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
I am wondering who the "Neo-cons" are who have taken over the Republican Party.
The religious right, the ones that want to illegalize abortions, ostracize gays and privatize education so they can teach their kids how they seem fit. The ones that want to reduce taxes to nothing so the roads go to crap, police and fire departments are cut to nothing and take away any assistance for those who can't do for themselves.


I think the last good real republican to win the party nomination for president was Barry Goldwater.
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grampster

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« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2006, 04:40:43 PM »
Quote from: charby
Quote from: The Rabbi
I am wondering who the "Neo-cons" are who have taken over the Republican Party.
The religious right, the ones that want to illegalize abortions, ostracize gays and privatize education so they can teach their kids how they seem fit. The ones that want to reduce taxes to nothing so the roads go to crap, police and fire departments are cut to nothing and take away any assistance for those who can't do for themselves.


I think the last good real republican to win the party nomination for president was Barry Goldwater.
You know what.  I don't think your comment is accurate at all.  Your paragraph is a talking point, not a reality.  We have what? A couple hundred million reasonable adults in our country?  Most of them have a bias here and there.  So what?  The majority of them don't like the a footloose policy of killing babies when there are myriads of alternatives.    Mosts of them really don't care one way or another what your sexual proclivities are as long as you are not shoving them down their throats. (pun intended)  Most Americans don't object to taxes as long as they are not being pissed away.  They are being pissed away, by the way.  Did you ever read the Grace Report?  That's why the roads are crumbling and our cops and firemen are understaffed.   If our politicians would reign in the bureaucrats and get serious about the proper expendature of our taxes, we could cut them in half and still get the job done.  One of the other reasons that police, fire and roads suffer is because they are whipping boys for the status quo in the political spectrum.  If engaged citizens woke up and demanded their elected officials to actually govern and immediately throw the fools out of office who threaten the cops, firemen and roads, maybe thingss could change.

My word!  Look at the juvenile lunacy that passes for politics.  If Americans would all cancel their subscriptions to the newspapers and turn off the TV for a month, maybe the "Drive By Media" would go back to backing up their stories with facts rather than fiction and smut.  I'm not saddened by our affairs today, I'm more embarrased.

I'm definately getting that tea!
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charby

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« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2006, 05:16:53 PM »
Been to the Republican Party of Iowa State Convention for the past few times and it is all that seem to dominate the discussion. Very little else is talked about other than what I mentioned, kind of hard not to call what you see.

I'm a Christian but religion doesn't belong in our government.

Coming close to becoming a ex republican.

-C
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2006, 05:18:09 PM »
Charby, are you serious?  The religious right and the Neo-cons are not the same.  In fact, they are rivals, albeit with Israel in common.  

You've got to be joking - you're not stupid enough to confuse the Neo-cons, the religious right (outlawing abortions and "ostracizing gays") and libertarians (radical reductions in govt.).  The three strains of conservatism all pushing for control of the Republican Party.  

But you're right.  This would be a terrible country if we could educate our children according to our values, but weren't allowed to murder them in the womb.
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charby

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« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2006, 05:23:35 PM »
I think that the relgious right has taken the place old anti commine neocons of old. No I'm not joking either.
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charby

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« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2006, 05:25:55 PM »
Quote from: fistful
But you're right.  This would be a terrible country if we could educate our children according to our values, but weren't allowed to murder them in the womb.
Its called homeschooling or sending your kids to private school. Not everyone wants to have their kids educated that way and to be honest of we didn't have public education the literacy rate would drop with in a generation.

-C
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CAnnoneer

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« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2006, 05:30:01 PM »
The same repubs can be members of multiple factions thereof. Somebody like Santorum is a fundie but also a neocon and not a libertarian. Specter is a neocon but not a fundie or a libertarian. Georgie is a neocon but not a fundie (although he believes to be) and certainly not a libertarian. Cheney is a neocon and nothing else. My guess is fistful and gampster are fundies and probably libertarians, but not neocons.

My simple definition of neocons is people that believe corporatism is the basis of conservatism, not the other way around.

Perd Hapley

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« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2006, 06:13:56 PM »
Quote from: CAnnoneer
My guess is fistful and gampster are fundies and probably libertarians, but not neocons.
Well done, sir, although I don't know about grampsters.  I don't know what you mean about George being or not being a fundie.  He is a middle-of-the-road evangelical.  In other words, a religious moderate.  It's quite odd how many people think he is some kind of religious fanatic.  He says Muslims and Christians worship the same God, for cryin' out loud.  Nothing fundamentalist about that.  

Charby, there are plenty of religious conservatives who'd like to abolish the DoE, but that's not the same as privatization.  Getting rid of public education altogether is more of a libertarian thing, even if some "fundies" believe in it.  

Why is it that the religious right are always seen as some kind of radical fringe group?  Most are normal people, usually with fairly moderate politics.
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CAnnoneer

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« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2006, 06:59:35 PM »
Quote from: fistful
Why is it that the religious right are always seen as some kind of radical fringe group?  Most are normal people, usually with fairly moderate politics.
Believers are scary to the unbelievers. Unbelievers tend to feel that believers can convince themselves in many things, since the latter have convinced themselves in the divine. Such a property is unnerving, especially in view of historic precedents. Devotion can easily become zeal, and zeal can have negative consequences...

Perd Hapley

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« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2006, 07:23:44 PM »
Quote from: CAnnoneer
zeal can have negative consequences...
So can apathy or lack of direction.  I understand why the rr is seen that way.  The kooks or extremists of any movement tend to color the whole lot.
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grampster

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« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2006, 07:43:22 PM »
CAnnoneer,
     If by a fundie you mean that I am a Christian believer and consider the Bible to be inspired, you'd be correct.  I don't, however, claim to speak for G-d.  He may speak to me from time to time in order that I might have some direction to aid in the using my reason.  I try to walk in the light, albiet imperfectly.  I will also admit to libertarian leanings, although I also hold to classic conservative principals in that if it ain't broke and seems to have a value, then don't screw with it.  Some things might just be timeless.  (phonics and rote memorization for example) I believe folks should be accountable for their decisions.  I believe our form of government, a constitutional republic, would work very well if only most of us participated in it.  That means from the grassroots to the White House.  

     I also subscribe to some classical liberal leanings in that although I believe that in America no one is doomed to be a failure and that everyone has the opportunity to be successful given enough ambition, circumstances do require generosity and understanding.  I think our emerging culture of victimhood and politicaly correct multiculturalism along with the notion that situational ethics is valid, will ultimately fracture our country.  In fact, I think it already has.  I think we should accept that we are diverse, but we should enthusiastically celebrate our unity.  I fully embrace each person's right to have an opinion or have a certain lifestyle.  Along with that I believe each person must be willing to accept the ramifications of those choices.  I believe our borders should be secured, and that we should openly welcome anyone who comes here who is willing to assimilate into our culture, language and elevate our work ethic.  It should not be hard for folks who subscribe to those virtues to be able to come here.

There you have grampster in two paragraphs.
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cosine

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« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2006, 07:45:58 PM »
Quote from: grampster
There you have grampster in two paragraphs.
*clap, clap, clap*

Most excellent. Methinks you've described more people than just yourself. Smiley
Andy

charby

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« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2006, 07:51:22 PM »
You know grampster your description of yourself fits how I feel also.

Canoneer and Fistful

Yeah the extremes seem to get the press and they seem to get their followers in a lot of the republican party functions here, so its erroneous of me to assume that all the rr is like that.

-C
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The Rabbi

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« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2006, 12:28:44 AM »
Quote from: CAnnoneer
My simple definition of neocons is people that believe corporatism is the basis of conservatism, not the other way around.
"Corporatism"???
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