Author Topic: The next Obama  (Read 80525 times)

Perd Hapley

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #150 on: November 15, 2012, 12:12:50 AM »
FYI, I get tired of this meme that Judeo-Christian tradition is that life is inalienable - that is clearly not the case, as death was sanctioned as punishment for offences from the beginning.


It is the right to life that is inalienable, but you need to understand the concept. If inalienable means what you think it means, then any imprisonment or punishment of any kind, no matter how well-deserved, is a violation of inalienable rights to life, liberty, property, pursuit of happiness, etc.


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Perd Hapley

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #151 on: November 15, 2012, 12:13:28 AM »
Where's the gripe?  I explained in logical terms why his claims weren't really arguments, and couldn't be expected to convince anyone. 


You wouldn't know logical terms if Ron used them. But we know that now.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #152 on: November 15, 2012, 12:32:21 AM »
By the specifics of that logic, a miscarriage would be involuntary manslaughter, or if said miscarriage could be attributed to actions (everything from drug use to inadequate nutrition) then criminal endangerment. 

Just sayin, you can't have it both ways. 


I want it one way. One approach, regardless whether the child is in the womb or out. If you mistreat a four-year-old, you can be charged with various crimes. Do you have a good reason why the same should not apply to the four-month-old fetus? No, you don't.

Obviously, such laws are not intended for accidental injury for which the parent is not to blame.

If pro-abortionists would simply do a little thinking, they would not embarrass themselves with these absurd, dystopian scenarios.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 12:57:56 AM by fistful »
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Strings

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #153 on: November 15, 2012, 10:45:18 AM »
This thread exactly demonstrates what I said earlier: on these issues, there is NO compromise allowed.

If y'all can, go back and read some of the things that have been said. In particular, read the responses to birdman's post.

Taking an absolutest stance is great... in principal. Unfortunately, I know a LOT of folks who are turned away from the R platform because of that stance. Who would be fine with most of the platform, but for that one issue

The saddest part of the whole debate? You (the pro life side) could easily win this, except you refuse to learn the lesson you have in front of you. You insist on getting everything you want, right bloody now.

Look at how far gun control got in the US, and how it got there. Nibble by nibble, until they had damn near removed the right.

But don't take my word for it: I'm just some heathen person who believes in a limited form of pro-choice. You have to save the babies... even if your strategy isn't working
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Balog

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #154 on: November 15, 2012, 11:19:25 AM »
Given what I know of post traumatic psychology, then yes: I place more weight on the well-being of the woman than I do the unborn child

Are there any other classes of people who's lives are less valuable and worth protecting than others to you?

This thread exactly demonstrates what I said earlier: on these issues, there is NO compromise allowed.

If y'all can, go back and read some of the things that have been said. In particular, read the responses to birdman's post.

Taking an absolutest stance is great... in principal. Unfortunately, I know a LOT of folks who are turned away from the R platform because of that stance. Who would be fine with most of the platform, but for that one issue

The saddest part of the whole debate? You (the pro life side) could easily win this, except you refuse to learn the lesson you have in front of you. You insist on getting everything you want, right bloody now.

Look at how far gun control got in the US, and how it got there. Nibble by nibble, until they had damn near removed the right.

But don't take my word for it: I'm just some heathen person who believes in a limited form of pro-choice. You have to save the babies... even if your strategy isn't working

False dichotomy. The fact that I want all non-self defense abortions to be illegal doesn't mean I'm not happy to accept incremental changes in that direction, any more than the fact that I want all drugs legalised or all federal gun laws repealed means I'm nott happy to see incremental improvement there.

And the false victimhood of implying that our argumentation against you has to do with your religion is pathetic and beneath you.
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Balog

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #155 on: November 15, 2012, 11:23:50 AM »
By the specifics of that logic, a miscarriage would be involuntary manslaughter, or if said miscarriage could be attributed to actions (everything from drug use to inadequate nutrition) then criminal endangerment. 

Just sayin, you can't have it both ways. 

Specious argument. If your child gets the flu and dies despite being treated, is that involuntary manslaughter? And assuming the bar was at the standard "beyond a reasonable doubt" level that proving any other case of criminal negligence or homicide is held to then yeah I'm ok with a woman who killed her baby in utero by free basing crack being punished for that.

Speaking of having it both ways, care to answer my earlier question? Are the unborn humans who have the same right to not be killed that we all do? If yes, why is it ok to kill them because their father was a violent criminal and they will cause emotional trauma to their mother? If they are not, then why do you want to keep abortion rare and not allow its use as birth control?
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MillCreek

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #156 on: November 15, 2012, 11:27:26 AM »
I predict that not a single mind or opinion will be changed as a result of this thread.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #157 on: November 15, 2012, 11:45:03 AM »
Are there any other classes of people who's lives are less valuable and worth protecting than others to you?

False dichotomy. The fact that I want all non-self defense abortions to be illegal doesn't mean I'm not happy to accept incremental changes in that direction, any more than the fact that I want all drugs legalised or all federal gun laws repealed means I'm nott happy to see incremental improvement there.

And the false victimhood of implying that our argumentation against you has to do with your religion is pathetic and beneath you.


All of this.

You can claim that anti-abortioners could/should do more, or do it differently, but it doesn't really apply to an internet discussion. About the only way we could be incremental here is to lie about just how seriously we take this whole not-killing-children thing. We could promise, like the anti-gunners do, that we only want "common-sense controls," but that wouldn't be honest. In the legal/political arena, could we ask for less to start off with? Yes, and that has been an ongoing project. Asking for parental consent before minors have abortions, further regulation of clinics, etc. Naturally, the bad guys react to each step the same way we do to each new gun bill.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 06:37:15 PM by fistful »
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Strings

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #158 on: November 15, 2012, 06:10:46 PM »
>Are there any other classes of people who's lives are less valuable and worth protecting than others to you?<

Not particularly. Proven violent felons, maybe, but I believe they shouldn't be allowed to be in society.

I'm sorry... did you think that would bother me?

>False dichotomy. The fact that I want all non-self defense abortions to be illegal doesn't mean I'm not happy to accept incremental changes in that direction, any more than the fact that I want all drugs legalised or all federal gun laws repealed means I'm nott happy to see incremental improvement there.<

Ahhh... but I (not being heavily involved in the issue) never hear about anything incremental. All I ever hear from the pro life side is "no terminating or interrupting a pregnancy ever ever ever". On this thread, Birdman's suggestion that the morning after pill be available for rape victims was greeted with the same level of scorn as a woman deciding to have an abortion in the third trimester.

>And the false victimhood of implying that our argumentation against you has to do with your religion is pathetic and beneath you.<

Not "false victimhood". Just a left-handed way of pointing out that I usually only hear devout Christians promoting the stance you're advocating. And it has been said on this board (in more than one thread) that my choice of religion demonstrates that I'm an immoral person
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Perd Hapley

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #159 on: November 15, 2012, 06:35:36 PM »
On this thread, Birdman's suggestion that the morning after pill be available for rape victims was greeted with the same level of scorn as a woman deciding to have an abortion in the third trimester.

The same level of scorn we (APS members) reserve for people who believe in gun registration and limits on ammo purchases. The more libertarian one becomes, the more any assault on liberty is, well, an assault on liberty.


Quote
Ahhh... but I (not being heavily involved in the issue) never hear about anything incremental. All I ever hear from the pro life side is "no terminating or interrupting a pregnancy ever ever ever".

Are you counting Birdman's post? Which side are you putting him on? And like I said, incremental steps to restrict abortion are a common tactic.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/clinic/view/


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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #160 on: November 15, 2012, 07:22:02 PM »
As a note, the morning after pill is -technically- not an abortifacient by the truest sense of the word, as their primary method of efficacy is prevention of ovulation. While there is some evidence that their action may also prevent implantation (so a fertilized embryo wouldnt attach...to each their own if that is considered 'abortion') the same can be said for a copper IUD, which is absolutely considered to be a contraceptive, NOT an abortifacient. 

So that being said, that is why I stated earlier that separation of the various causes of unwanted pregnancy is important, and why (strings' points regarding the fact not all raped women seek medical attention in a short enough time period) if plan B is considered to be not an abortifacient, then my point remains that in the day and age, actual abortions should not be necessary except in the "life of the mother" case.

In my opinion, a fertilized, unimplanted embryo is not an independent life.  My logic being:
1.  since ALL embryos have the potential to become twins, in the case of identical twins vs single fetuses, the differentiation from one independent entity to multiple occurs post implantation and post cell division, the "identity" of the entity cannot be established until that occurs.
2. It is no more an independent life than a unfertilized egg or sperm cell--both of which are alive, but cannot live independently (they have no method of imbibing nutrients or oxygen other than in the uterine lining in the case of an egg or at all in the case of a sperm.  Additionally, while a fertilized egg has a different genome than either parent, so does each parent's reproductive cells due to crossover and other meiotic actions.  Additionally, it has been shown in vertebrate eggs that the necessary chromosomal doubling can occur without a second reproductive cell (ie cloning), so again, an fertilized unimplanted egg has no more potentiation than an unfertilized unreleased egg in a follicle.
3. A pluripotent stem cell can technically create a whole new cloned human being, as it has the same genetic potential as the fertilized egg that created the individual.  While these stem cells are referred to commonly as "embryonic" stem cells as they are most commonly obtained from multicellular embryos before any differentiation can occur--breaking apart the embryo at this stage is identical to the process which creates identical multiple births, it has been determined that pluripotent stem cells may exist in an post birth human, in which case, as these cells have the same technical potentiation as a fertilized unimplanted embryo, does that mean that if one of these cells were say, on some skin tissue that you scratched, does that mean you "aborted" that potential life-form?
4. While fertilization results in cellular changes that enable the now fertilized egg to begin dividing (mitosis), it is one step in a process of cellular changes that take a egg in a follicle (which doesn't divide, ever) to a dividing embryo.  These changes, plus the addition of the other chromosomes are required to result in a new genetically different, embryo undergoing growth through cell division.  However, as meiosis failures (triple chromosomes, missing chromosomes) can occur, (or nuclear replacement with a full set of chromosomes) it is technically possible that the process by which the egg starts dividing can occur artificially and without "fertilization" (the combining of the two groups of chromosomes) can occur (we have to define fertilization this way, as it is technically possible for a sperm and egg to combine with no transfer of genetic material and this a non-viable embryo).

Given that, that it has undetermined identity of potentiation and no more of a different genome than an individual egg or sperm, it is logical to come to the conclusion that "life" (an independent entity with determined potentiation) begins on implantation and the first few cell divisions (once the embryo rewches the point where it has differentiated sufficiently to fix its potentiation into a single life form) otherwise, since all fertilized unimplanted, or implanted but Pre-division cells can potentially be twins, any single pregnancy is technically the elimination of at least one potential independent life (the twin that never occurred).  Additionally, due to variety of steps and exceptions stated above, the embryo cannot be considered "living" in the same sense as an independent life form until implantation and division, as until those occur, it cannot eat, excrete, have a fixed identity, or grow or reproduce--the aspects that are fundamental to "life".  Before implantation and division to diversification, it is a cell or group of cells that cannot exist for other than a short period of time, has no more genetic diversity or identity than potential cast off tissue cells or reproductive cells, and has an upon determined potentiation (like stem cells), so it should be reasonable to conclude that before this point it is no more an independent life than the other examples.

Now, I am expressing an opinion here, not about the right or wrong of abortion, but rather how to better (ie using logical argument based on scientific facts) define "life beginning"--the argument can be made that while parasitic, a new, fixed potentiation identity is formed at the post implantation and division to diversification point, not fertilization.

Anyway...just trying to add some thoughts to the debate.

Perd Hapley

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #161 on: November 15, 2012, 08:59:08 PM »
While I don't understand all of the jargon you're using there, there are a couple of things that stood out.


1.  since ALL embryos have the potential to become twins, in the case of identical twins vs single fetuses, the differentiation from one independent entity to multiple occurs post implantation and post cell division, the "identity" of the entity cannot be established until that occurs.

If this is a defense of pre-implantation abortifacients, it is surely an odd one. "It's OK, you could be killing more than one human."

Quote
2. It is no more an independent life than a unfertilized egg or sperm cell--both of which are alive, but cannot live independently (they have no method of imbibing nutrients or oxygen other than in the uterine lining in the case of an egg or at all in the case of a sperm. 

Er, no, it's because the egg and sperm are parts of a larger organism, not because they can't buy eggs and bread at the store.

Quote
  While these stem cells are referred to commonly as "embryonic" stem cells as they are most commonly obtained from multicellular embryos before any differentiation can occur--breaking apart the embryo at this stage is identical to the process which creates identical multiple births, it has been determined that pluripotent stem cells may exist in an post birth human, in which case, as these cells have the same technical potentiation as a fertilized unimplanted embryo, does that mean that if one of these cells were say, on some skin tissue that you scratched, does that mean you "aborted" that potential life-form?

You think the cells of your skin are going to turn into babies? Seriously? And just when you were starting to sound so sciencey and smart...
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CAnnoneer

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #162 on: November 16, 2012, 07:02:26 PM »
It amazes me that after such a sound beating, Republicans still do not get what went wrong and how to fix it. Even my hero, Ann Coulter, is so deluded that Romney was a great candidate.

Let's face it - demographics predicts the future. Minorities may soon be a majority. Incorporate them culturally rather than antagonizing them with grandstanding. An immigration compromise is the only way to move forward.

Social conservatism is on the way out. Stick to it, and you will NEVER win. George W. was the last one who won that way. It will not happen again. Boomers are retiring and dying. Bye-bye, base.

Fiscal conservatism is good on paper but only works with moral people and/or prosperity. Morality is low. Prosperity is evaporating. You do the math. Telling people they should vote for a multimillionaire executive who wants to cut capital gains tax for trickle-down prosperity will not fly with people scared about the economy and worrying they may need to count on the government to feed their families through the worst which may lie ahead.

Stop insisting on candidates to pass ridiculous hoops about whatever the "base" likes. All that is just giving the D's ammunition to paint the candidate as extremist.

Stop going for candidates that will be rejected by large swaths of the population on general principle. Let me see. Romney:

1) Mormon. Scratch out a bunch of Christians and secularists.
2) Made a fortune on shutting companies down. Yeah, that will fly with workers...
3) Flipflopping on so many issues. Inspiring trust, anyone?

Add to that an innate inability for articulate expression, a forced desire to please all, overly polite to an obvious ideological enemy, agreeing with so many things a completely incompetent and dishonest administration did... Hell, it is a surprise he got as MANY votes as he did.

Also, some of you, look deep into yourselves and see if you are not a bit tyrannical in desiring to see others do what you want, for your own pet peeves or "principled positions". Why pick and choose which freedoms you support? Don't be surprised when people see you as hypocritical, or at least inconsistent.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 07:22:46 PM by CAnnoneer »

Perd Hapley

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #163 on: November 16, 2012, 07:34:16 PM »
Stop going for candidates that will be rejected by large swaths of the population on general principle. Let me see. Romney:

1) Mormon. Scratch out a bunch of Christians and secularists.

2) Made a fortune on shutting companies down. Yeah, that will fly with workers...
3) Flipflopping on so many issues. Inspiring trust, anyone?



Huh? The stats I've heard indicate that more evangelicals turned out this time, than in 2008. In fact, one source is reporting that Romney did slightly better among evangelicals than he did among Mormons.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765615349/Mitt-Romney-won-white-evangelicals-but-struggled-with-Latino-Catholics.html
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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #164 on: November 16, 2012, 07:37:10 PM »
Quote from: CAnnoneer
...Let's face it - demographics predicts the future. Minorities may soon be a majority. Incorporate them culturally rather than antagonizing them with grandstanding. An immigration compromise is the only way to move forward.

Social conservatism is on the way out. Stick to it, and you will NEVER win. George W. was the last one who won that way. It will not happen again. Boomers are retiring and dying. Bye-bye, base.

Fiscal conservatism is good on paper but only works with moral people and/or prosperity. Morality is low. Prosperity is evaporating. You do the math. Telling people they should vote for a multimillionaire executive who wants to cut capital gains tax for trickle-down prosperity will not fly with people scared about the economy and worrying they may need to count on the government to feed their families through the worst which may lie ahead.   ......    


So republicans ought to become social liberals and endorse abortion and free contraception, and become fiscal liberals and tax and spend, and buy Latino votes with goodies and amnesty?

Why, then, a republican party?  Just decommission it and have the ex-repubs join the demorat party.

Anyone have advice on whether I should reregister as a independant or Libertarian?  :facepalm:
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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #165 on: November 16, 2012, 08:43:09 PM »
I have to wonder how many of these telling pro-lifers to compromise and not reveal their full agenda also hate the NRA because they compromise and don't demand an end to GCA68 and NFA36?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

makattak

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #166 on: November 16, 2012, 08:46:51 PM »
It amazes me that after such a sound beating, Republicans still do not get what went wrong and how to fix it. Even my hero, Ann Coulter, is so deluded that Romney was a great candidate.

Let's face it - demographics predicts the future. Minorities may soon be a majority. Incorporate them culturally rather than antagonizing them with grandstanding. An immigration compromise is the only way to move forward.

Social conservatism is on the way out. Stick to it, and you will NEVER win. George W. was the last one who won that way. It will not happen again. Boomers are retiring and dying. Bye-bye, base.

Fiscal conservatism is good on paper but only works with moral people and/or prosperity. Morality is low. Prosperity is evaporating. You do the math. Telling people they should vote for a multimillionaire executive who wants to cut capital gains tax for trickle-down prosperity will not fly with people scared about the economy and worrying they may need to count on the government to feed their families through the worst which may lie ahead.

Stop insisting on candidates to pass ridiculous hoops about whatever the "base" likes. All that is just giving the D's ammunition to paint the candidate as extremist.

Stop going for candidates that will be rejected by large swaths of the population on general principle. Let me see. Romney:

1) Mormon. Scratch out a bunch of Christians and secularists.
2) Made a fortune on shutting companies down. Yeah, that will fly with workers...
3) Flipflopping on so many issues. Inspiring trust, anyone?

Add to that an innate inability for articulate expression, a forced desire to please all, overly polite to an obvious ideological enemy, agreeing with so many things a completely incompetent and dishonest administration did... Hell, it is a surprise he got as MANY votes as he did.

Also, some of you, look deep into yourselves and see if you are not a bit tyrannical in desiring to see others do what you want, for your own pet peeves or "principled positions". Why pick and choose which freedoms you support? Don't be surprised when people see you as hypocritical, or at least inconsistent.

What cannot go on will not. Neither social nor fiscal conservatism will lose, long run.

Both social conservatism and fiscal conservatism are a recognition of the reality of man: both his nature and the nature of the world. You can reject them both for a time, but the gods of the copybook headings will return.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

De Selby

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #167 on: November 16, 2012, 08:49:18 PM »
Quote
Also, some of you, look deep into yourselves and see if you are not a bit tyrannical in desiring to see others do what you want, for your own pet peeves or "principled positions". Why pick and choose which freedoms you support? Don't be surprised when people see you as hypocritical, or at least inconsistent.

This is a big, big element in what happened to the right in America.  
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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #168 on: November 16, 2012, 10:30:41 PM »
What cannot go on will not. Neither social nor fiscal conservatism will lose, long run.

Both social conservatism and fiscal conservatism are a recognition of the reality of man: both his nature and the nature of the world. You can reject them both for a time, but the gods of the copybook headings will return.

Ayup.  "Conservatism" regarding social and economic interaction is a mere acknowledgment of reality and the "liberal" position an exercise in shifting who bears the consequences of actions taken.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #169 on: November 16, 2012, 10:32:54 PM »
This is a big, big element in what happened to the right in America.  

Yeah, we "pick and choose" freedoms that don't lead to infanticide and unicorn marriage. How did we go so terribly wrong?   :rofl:
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MillCreek

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #170 on: November 16, 2012, 10:55:18 PM »
What cannot go on will not. Neither social nor fiscal conservatism will lose, long run.

Both social conservatism and fiscal conservatism are a recognition of the reality of man: both his nature and the nature of the world. You can reject them both for a time, but the gods of the copybook headings will return.

I remember reading an article making much the same point over two years ago: http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/08/the_revenge_of_the_gods_of_the_copybook_headings.html
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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #171 on: November 16, 2012, 11:25:03 PM »
What cannot go on will not. Neither social nor fiscal conservatism will lose, long run.

Both social conservatism and fiscal conservatism are a recognition of the reality of man: both his nature and the nature of the world. You can reject them both for a time, but the gods of the copybook headings will return.

What a great ol' Kipling Poem that was!!  ;)
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CAnnoneer

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #172 on: November 17, 2012, 12:58:15 AM »
Yeah, we "pick and choose" freedoms that don't lead to infanticide and unicorn marriage. How did we go so terribly wrong?   :rofl:

A basic form of freedom is freedom of association. Marriage is a form of association. Opposing gay marriage is denying gays that form of association. I am happily married and know what commitment that is to undertake towards another human being, how rewarding and scary it is. While homosexuality is repulsive to me, I see no reason why two gays cannot hold the same kind of commitment and connection among each other. I cannot find it in myself to deny them that on any moral or intellectual grounds.

Regarding abortion, I was first for it then against it. I am still against it on ethical grounds. But, I do not see myself requiring that a government body in any way gets involved in its restriction, because I fear the damage they will do to freedoms will be overall worse than whatever good may come out of it.

Conservatives talk about how great America is, but many of them are for stopping immigration, and are fearful and dismissive of minorities. "America is great, but let's keep it to ourselves. You out there stay in your toilets and die. We are for freedom of labor and freedom of association, but not when it is our living standards on the line." That is inconsistent, some might say hypocritical and self-serving. Others perceive it as racist, likely falsely so.

Instead of spinning impossible tales about self-deportation, how about incorporating the illegals in society, so they get out of the shadows, make more money, pay taxes, and stop being second-class people preyed upon by both consumer and employer? The crushing majority are honest but desperate people wanting to pursue the American dream. What is so wrong with that? Let them legalize, let them do well for themselves. That is the only way to free them from the yoke of Democrats and racist demagogues.

zxcvbob

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #173 on: November 17, 2012, 01:07:53 AM »
We need to control our borders, but we also need to make it easier to immigrate *legally*.  It'll never happen; both parties have too much vested interest in the current system.  The Democrats are addicted to voter fraud and a permanent underclass, and the Republicans are addicted to cheap illegal labor that also keeps downward pressure on wages for US workers (except management, of course)
"It's good, though..."

CAnnoneer

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #174 on: November 17, 2012, 01:11:54 AM »
So republicans ought to become social liberals and endorse abortion and free contraception, and become fiscal liberals and tax and spend, and buy Latino votes with goodies and amnesty?

The world of mirrors is a trick of sly Democrat demagogues. They bait you to take a stand on every issue, so you can piss off as many people as possible. That way, they make a coalition of "Not You", and win consistently. Wouldn't it be smarter to focus on one or two fundamental issues and simply agree to disagree on the others?

If people are asked, "Do you believe in personal freedoms and independence from a corrupt inefficient tyrannical bureaucracy?", how many will say "no"? Accomplish this, then deal with the rest later. Otherwise, you get tricked over and over to work yourself up into a corner and lose consistently while believing in one's own moral superiority.

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Why, then, a republican party?  Just decommission it and have the ex-repubs join the demorat party.

The Republican party is dead. There are disjoint groups with incompatible agendas that occupy its corpse and try to define themselves inside it, while the leadership is stupid, senile, and completely out of touch with reality. The sooner the corpse dissolves, the better for everybody. Libertarianism will only get stronger as a result, and the Democrats will not have their Boogie man any more to scare people with into voting for them.