Author Topic: The next Obama  (Read 80567 times)

MicroBalrog

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #200 on: November 17, 2012, 03:55:06 PM »
Georgia.

That is all.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

erictank

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #201 on: November 17, 2012, 05:39:56 PM »
I would think that a true libertarian would equally endorse this statement.


This. Although IIRC Fistful does not claim to be libertarian?

Yawn.

Then the true libertarian has gone soft in the head, solving problems that don't exist.

Don't exist? When a gay man can't visit his husband (yes, I'm deliberately using that term) when he's dying in the hospital, because they "aren't really married", that's a problem that *DOES* exist. When a gay woman is not considered family for that same "reason" after her wife's death, and probate cuts her out from the resources she and her wife had, that's a problem that *DOES* exist. I'm sure there are other issues that more than a half-second's worth of thought would raise, but those two are IMO more than enough.

Yeah, I'd rather that government at all levels got its freaking nose out of the marriage business altogether. There's no REASON for it to be involved at all. But if it recognizes and validates and provides benefits for one group, then it needs to be equitable in doing so for ALL. Favoritism on the basis of sexual orientation is not a valid function of the government. Indeed, it would seem to me to be explicitly forbidden by the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment, applicable to government at all levels. How can it POSSIBLY be justified?

They don't deserve SPECIAL rights or treatment, but they do deserve EQUAL rights and treatment. And they don't currently GET them.

CAnnoneer

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #202 on: November 17, 2012, 06:30:19 PM »
The military is not the biggest slice of the fiscal pie, traditionally it's been pretty small.  Our big economic problem is entitlements.
In so far as policing the world and wanting "nobody to mess with us" is concerned, yes, as the Romans used to say, "Si vis Pacum, Parabellum," ~~ "If you wish to see peace, prepare for war."  

I'll get back to entitlements later. Let's focus on the military.

I am not saying let's be weak. I am saying how strong do we need to be? Why can't we just have a national military like the UK or Switzerland, defend our borders, and have a Pacific and an Atlantic fleet. Let somebody else police the world. Let them lose lives and treasure, and be hated everywhere. Why do WE have to do it? What we have now is global military, which as a nation we do not need at all.

If international corporations want major traffic lanes open, freedom of operation in hot regions, etc., let them pay for their own security force, not bribe politicians to send troops (national volunteers or mercenaries) on taxpayer coin.

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As far as "policing the world" is concerned it is my unfortunate conclusion that we live in a world that is governed by the aggressive use of force.  It abhors a power vacuum.  Maintaining a strong military vigilance may be a pain in the wallet, and I agree it does present a certain hubris which is not particularly pleasant, but if we stop then another power will simply take over.
Are we prepared for that power to be Russia -- which is rebuilding its military?  Or perhaps China -- which is building its military and navy?
We could defeat them fairly easily today but should current trends continue, in 20 or 30 years it will not be anywhere near as easy.
And, trust me, China will br throwing its weight around.  Not necessarily through outright warfare; it won't have to.

And why do we care if Russia and China apply influence in their spheres? At least in some ways they are more capitalist than we are. USSR is gone and dead. Modern Russia is not communist, even if run by former KGBists. It is a corrupt state with its own problems. So is China. Again, if they want to waste coin and lives in remote toilets, let them do so.

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Maybe....maybe not.  Traditional marriage has always been the backbone of society as it allowed for reproduction and rearing of children in a generally safe and protected way.  The biggest argument in favor of gay relationships I see is that there simply aren't enough gays to disrupt the "natural order of things."  
That is not to say it couldn't happen.  

I do not think there are any more gays today percentage-wise than there were 2,000 years ago. They are a few percent of the population, maybe as large as 10% by some estimates, if including bisexuals and ones still in the closet. I do not see how this can destabilize the modern family. The argument is particularly questionable considering some 50% divorce rates among the heterosexuals. Further, gays have children and rear them just fine. They use surrogate mothers or sperm donors or simply adopt. I do not see how abandoned children getting a loving family of gays to take care of them is worse than the child growing up in a home and the gays spending their lives childless.

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Both Greece and Rome developed a profound lack of respect for traditional relationships (or lacked such respect from the onset if some historians are correct) and history records what happened to those cultures.  However, homosexuality was more of a "symptom" of a far more serious disease in both those cultures.  It was also more widely practiced then than it is today.

Rome existed for centuries after they developed the lack of respect for traditional relationships. May our own country be so lucky to exist another 500 years.
 
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In reality only about the top half of income earners pay an income tax.  The higher the income the more is paid in taxes.
The top one per cent of income earners pay @ 39.89% tax revenues received by the govt.
The top five per cent pays  @60.14%
The top ten per cent pays  @70.79%
The top twenty five per cent pay 86.27% and the top half pay 97.01% of the tax revenues
(National Taxpayers Union & National taxpayers Union Foundation provide the stats)

This only tells me that a change of taxes for them will impact the fed revenue disproportionately than one for the average person.

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The very rich can "always afford" a few higher percentage points added on their tax bills for very little gain by the government.  Keep in mind that the top 1% of income starts at  a yearly salary of $388,806.00 yearly.
That's three hundred thousand -- NOT million -- dollars there.  Just sayin.'

What is your point? If you are making 400k an year you are making the same as POTUS. The average voter makes about 50k. If you go and tell him, "Hey, I am not rich. The fed is taxing me too much already.", what will his reaction be? Most likely, "JFC, I barely live paycheck from paycheck supporting my family. Difficult to have much sympathy for you, buddy." I personally want ideally no more than 5% tax on everybody, but that is a different story. Here we are talking about what will fly with voters and how conservatives mishandle the issue.

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What is very likely to happen is government will be hitting small business owners with a whopping new burden of taxes and regulations.  It's already beginning; have you kept your eyes open?  Already there are people being laid off.
Obamacare is going to hurt as well, as restaurants fire some employees and then move others down to part-time status in order to avoid the ramifications of St. Obama's wonderful new healthcare law, now firmly ensconced into American jurisprudence due to Justice Roberts' shenanigans and Obama's reelection.

I have no doubt that that is exactly what is going to happen. That is one of the reasons I abhor Obamacare. However, the tax issue remains mishandled, because the conservatives obstinately refuse to admit that there is an upper bound of income bracket that makes sense to protect. Sure, there are many small businesses that look wealthy to the average person, but employ many people, and will lay people off if taxes increase. But, there is an even further crust that is even wealthier, and does not give a *expletive deleted*it about even a large increase percentage wise. They are so rich personally and their assets are so protected, that to them it will make a small difference if any. Instead, the Reps got bogged down in a stupid argument about plumber Joe type outfits.

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The idea that taxing the very rich affects no one else is also a myth.  During the 1990s a "luxury tax" was instituted on luxury items only "rich" people could afford -- like yachts.  That tax nearly destroyed America's yachting industry as the malevelant rich people stopped buying yachts and began refurbishing the old yachts they already owned.  The tax was quickly abandoned afterwards.

If you do it like that, it will certainly not work. People find loopholes or simply readjust. But, I would also counter-argue that they just spent their money elsewhere or reinvested it, so while the yacht-makers lost business, others gained.

I do not want income tax for anybody. But, if there must be one, let's apply it fairly and intelligently. What is happening now is a joke. There are extremely rich people who pay lower rates than their secretaries. To them, the accumulation of wealth has become a surreal exercise. Conservatives say, don't touch them. The average person cannot take such a position seriously.

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"Trickle-down" economics may be an old saw by now, but if you believe it doesn't work, I invite you to resign your present position and then go find a poor person and ask him to hire you.  Even contemplating this excercise illustrates why "trickle down" works.  It's the natural order of things.  I've worked for a number of employers over the years and never, ever, for one worth less than me.  Don't like that?  Tough.

I personally have no problem with wealth. If you are smart and work hard and make billions, all the more power to you. Yeah, go ahead and hire people and generate prosperity. But you cannot seriously expect your employees to pay higher percentage taxes on their piddly income, when you use CPAs and a thousand loopholes, in the misguided self-validating surreal impetus to be even richer, faster.

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MOST people are still believers.  

Except they don't act like it, even if they are. I cannot tell them apart with a scorecard.

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Secularism has caught on in the popular culture and is making inroads which will only be tolerable so long as it does not become overbearing.

They younger generations are more comfortable with secularism than with religion. There are concomitant consequences on the electorate.

birdman

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #203 on: November 17, 2012, 06:47:05 PM »
Lower income brackets do NOT pay a greater percentage than upper.  Even middle don't.  If you look at actual EFFECTIVE tax rates, (the percentage of income paid in taxes) the effective tax rate rises with income. 

Not only that, notwithstanding the fact dividend rates are below income rates, dividends are taxed TWICE (corporate taxes and then dividend taxes) meaning that 15% is actually closer to 45%, far higher than any of the income brackets.  This means buffet is lying his ass off.  Referenced to the source of the income, he pays a far higher effective tax rate than his secretary. 

Using the argument that the rich pay less in effective tax rates just shows your ignorance.

MillCreek

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #204 on: November 17, 2012, 06:54:07 PM »
^^^ Can you imagine the joys of a flat tax with accompanying simplified tax code?  The IRS, tax lobbyists, tax advisers and tax lawyers would  be a fraction of their current numbers.  I am going to have to research, because it occurs to me to wonder if any contemporary industrialized nation has a flat tax now.  To the Googles!
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De Selby

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #205 on: November 17, 2012, 07:06:26 PM »
Lower income brackets do NOT pay a greater percentage than upper.  Even middle don't.  If you look at actual EFFECTIVE tax rates, (the percentage of income paid in taxes) the effective tax rate rises with income. 

Not only that, notwithstanding the fact dividend rates are below income rates, dividends are taxed TWICE (corporate taxes and then dividend taxes) meaning that 15% is actually closer to 45%, far higher than any of the income brackets.  This means buffet is lying his ass off.  Referenced to the source of the income, he pays a far higher effective tax rate than his secretary. 

Using the argument that the rich pay less in effective tax rates just shows your ignorance.

Warren Buffett doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to his own finances - riiiiight.

It is undoubtedly easier for the uber wealthy to manipulate the tax code to reduce their tax burden.   Average joes can't get KPMG to create new financial products designed to shelter billion dollar holdings from taxation.  Most people are lucky if their 1040 is filled out correctly.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

birdman

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #206 on: November 17, 2012, 07:28:38 PM »
^^^ Can you imagine the joys of a flat tax with accompanying simplified tax code?  The IRS, tax lobbyists, tax advisers and tax lawyers would  be a fraction of their current numbers.  I am going to have to research, because it occurs to me to wonder if any contemporary industrialized nation has a flat tax now.  To the Googles!

What we want is a simplified single tax system.  Multi-Layer taxation only hides the tax burden and creates disincentives for economic growth.

It's quite simple, tax income at the personal level and that is it.  For instance, I suggest the following:
1. Eliminate FICA and social security taxes by rolling them into normal income tax, including the employer contributions of both.  Since both go to the general fund anyway, this will enable simplified entitlement reform.
2. Reduce corporate tax rates to a fixed 20% and implement a true territorial tax system. (repatriated income is only taxed at the foreign site, not again at US rates.  This will massively encourage repatriation of funds and foreign investment.  Allow capital expenses of any kind to be expensed rather than depreciated...this encourages growth and expansion.
3. Eliminate ALL capital gains taxes.  As capital gains are not indexed to inflation, and to do so would make the tax code EXTREMELY complex, and since they are a form of double taxation, they should be eliminated.  Also, this will encourage investment and entrepreneurship.
4. Eliminate all dividend taxes ON DOMESTIC PROFITS they are already taxed at the corporate level, dividend taxes will be 20% on foreign profit dividends not taxed in point 2.
5. Eliminate estate tax.
6. Fix income taxes at 20% for all brackets with zero deductions, exemptions, etc.  This includes the mortgage tax deduction, which is extraordinarily regressive and artificially encourages real estate investment at the expense of growth investment of capital.  Qualified Business expenses (same rules as corporate, no depreciation , instant expensing) are the only exception, and only up to the income of the business)

This results in a net effective tax rate of about 18% of GDP.  

As a note, with the SS and FICA roll-in, this is a net wash in income taxes relative to now for nearly ALL tax brackets (if anything, the lower brackets are better off).  The fact these taxes are treated separately, and there is an employer match that is hidden and the SS contribution ends at $116k is the reason why the effective tax rates are far more level than the marginal rates would suggest.

This also maximally incentivizes economic growth, domestic competitiveness, foreign investment here, and actually reduces our apparent labor costs compared to other countries,  it also maintains overall revenues at or near historic averages.

When I say all deductions and exemptions, I mean all.

Simple tax form:
Three input forms: W-2, a 1099 like contracting/sales income form, and a broker created foreign dividend form.

1040-new
Take income add 1099/dividend income, subtract business expenses, multiply by 0.20.

Withholding just as easy for a company.  Increase all wages by ~6.5% to account for employer match, then withhold 20% of the new value.

There.  Simple, just as, of not more "fair" than current, everyone pays at least something and economic growth is encouraged.

birdman

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #207 on: November 17, 2012, 07:41:03 PM »
Warren Buffett doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to his own finances - riiiiight.

It is undoubtedly easier for the uber wealthy to manipulate the tax code to reduce their tax burden.   Average joes can't get KPMG to create new financial products designed to shelter billion dollar holdings from taxation.  Most people are lucky if their 1040 is filled out correctly.

Not what I said, implied, or even aludded to, AMD I'm getting really tired of your crap.

So I'll explain it AGAIN...try to keep up.

Buffet SAID he paid 15%, as that is the tax RATE on dividends, as effectively 99% of his "income" is B-H dividends.  Since B-H also pays 35% corporate tax on any profits (profit divided by number of shares is dividend per share) so for each dollar in profit earned by B-H, $0.65 shows up per share as a dividend.  Buffet then pays 15% tax on that, or about $0.095, leaving $0.455.

Now, his secretary likely earns lets say $200k in AGI (note, her salary is NOT taxed at the corporate level, asit is an expense, not profit) and thus pays $50k in taxes (33% of amount over $178k plus 43.5k), or about 25% effective tax rate.

Therefore, for every dollar AFTER TAXES that she takes home, the government has extracted $0.33 in taxes.

For buffet, for every dollar AFTER TAXES he takes home, the government has extracted $0.80 in taxes.

He therefore pays more taxes per dollar of take-home than ANY OF THE INCOME BRACKETS AT ANY LEVEL OF INCOME.

This is the fallacy I was referencing.  It has nothing to do with hiding money in tax shelters or anything, it is intrinsic to the fact that we have a double-taxation system.

In other words, he is LYING and relying on folks like you who can't apply reason and math to parrot his talking points to fit his agenda.

There, do you get it now? 

De Selby

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #208 on: November 17, 2012, 07:46:54 PM »
To be honest, I didn't read those posts past the first line.   When you failed to explain how you wrote the tax code, or to reference how engineers are the best taxation system designers, or to tie in how drone pilots dont know anything about drones, I couldn't be sure of any value in the post.   ;/

Seriously birdman, you think the tone might be a bit much lately?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

birdman

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #209 on: November 17, 2012, 08:03:38 PM »
To be honest, I didn't read those posts past the first line.   When you failed to explain how you wrote the tax code, or to reference how engineers are the best taxation system designers, or to tie in how drone pilots dont know anything about drones, I couldn't be sure of any value in the post.   ;/

Seriously birdman, you think the tone might be a bit much lately?

I'm just sick of attempting to debate things in a logical, critical thinking fashion with factual backup and sources if requested, and having points responded to in the fashion you did, by twisting the argument, building up strawmen, etc.

My tone?  You know what?  Screw you and your opinions of my tone. 

Do you think your inane recycling of b$&@it arguments over and over is a bit much lately....or ever?  I mean, I've only been here for like a year and a half and I've seen you make the same crap argument about 4600 times.

Yeah, you are right, I didn't write the tax code, but neither did you, and I don't see facts or suggestions from you. 

You are also correct, engineers don't normally wrote tax code (don't see what that has to do with anything)...it's usually left up to self serving lawyers, which explains why it's as convoluted and as easily misunderstood as it is.

Oh, and on the drone pilot thing, KGB and I were talking past teach other, and I apologized for my reaction to him, because I did realize what happened.  I will not, on the other hand, apologize to you.

Go ahead, Roll your eyes and sarcastically reference my previous posts again...it only proves you have nothing really to add to the argument other than your function as "troll".

Mods, go ahead, ban me, I dont give a crap anymore. 

CAnnoneer

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #210 on: November 17, 2012, 08:26:53 PM »
Using the argument that the rich pay less in effective tax rates just shows your ignorance.

The analysis about the double taxation is just a play upon math. Warren only pays capital gains. That is the bottom line to him. What the corporation pays is opaque to him. Taking into account corporations cook books and play a thousand games to show as little taxable income as possible, the 35% is a joke. It is not applied on revenue but on income. Get your effective taxable income close to zero and the 35% may as well be 1%. So, sorry, but I will have to trust Warren Buffet on this one.

Yet another well known public secret is many of the extremely rich just have their assets in trust funds and similar arrangements. Their real income is never touched, because it gets rolled over into the trust INDEFINITELY. They draw an allowance from it or against it, which is a small fraction of their actual income. That allowance is what they pay their taxes on, after numerous loopholes and tricks with deductions. So, a trust fund baby for example may be making over $1M per year in actual income, but live on say $200k. He will NEVER pay taxes on the difference.




birdman

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #211 on: November 17, 2012, 08:33:54 PM »
The analysis about the double taxation is just a play upon math. Warren only pays capital gains. That is the bottom line to him. What the corporation pays is opaque to him. Taking into account corporations cook books and play a thousand games to show as little taxable income as possible, the 35% is a joke. It is not applied on revenue but on income. Get your effective taxable income close to zero and the 35% may as well be 1%. So, sorry, but I will have to trust Warren Buffet on this one.

Yet another well known public secret is many of the extremely rich just have their assets in trust funds and similar arrangements. Their real income is never touched, because it gets rolled over into the trust INDEFINITELY. They draw an allowance from it or against it, which is a small fraction of their actual income. That allowance is what they pay their taxes on, after numerous loopholes and tricks with deductions. So, a trust fund baby for example may be making over $1M per year in actual income, but live on say $200k. He will NEVER pay taxes on the difference.


Incorrect.  Buffet doesn't SELL his shares in B-H, that would be stupid.  His income is DIVIDENDS, hence my point.  And since B-H is attempting to show a profit to its shareholders, they actually have to do so.  When people talk about buffet's income, they (and he) are referring the dividends on his Berkshire Hathaway holdings.  When he talks about his effective tax rates, he is referring to the taxes on his DIVIDENDS, which compose effectively all of his income.  There isn't any hiding, as I said before, B-H is highly profitable, and since any money that goes to profits is also taxed as profits (all the "hiding" you refer to is done to reduce the portion of after earnings after expenses, but by DEFINITION, any money that gets distributed as dividends is taxed as corporate profits).

I believe you are misunderstanding my point.

EDIT:  it was pointed out BH doesn't give a dividend.  But their stock repurchase approach yields the same effective taxation when it is done as capital gains.  So my point remains.  Anyway.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 08:35:04 PM by birdman »

CAnnoneer

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #212 on: November 17, 2012, 08:44:16 PM »

Libertarianism will fail too, if it keeps trying to use the platform of "WE NEED TO LEGAALIZE DRUGS" to keep running on.  The argument might have merit but Americans tend to reject it.  Drug use is largely seen as entertainment for the failure class and it's like trying to sell a turd to someone who wants to buy a diamond.

Historically, we see the opposite trend. More and more states put measures to legalize pot. The wind is blowing in that direction. Old people and conservatives have been able to defeat it in the past, but their numbers are shrinking, and the younger generations are favorable to it. Do the math. Soon, the only deterrent to it will be the federal government, but as pressure mounts in the states, congressmen and senators will change their tune as well. Or they will die off. Or they will be voted out. It is just a matter of time. One of the reasons DEA is such a pointless waste for the most part.

CAnnoneer

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #213 on: November 17, 2012, 08:58:09 PM »
CAnnonneer, you make blanket arguments that require research to refute. The burden should be on you (and others) to cite sources when saying that "the people want this" or similar statements. It's the same reason that DeSelby gets on my nerves.

I am sorry if I get on your nerves. I am expressing my opinions. I do not sell analysis and am not a paid political advisor. I base my opinions on the information I have and on my life experiences and knowledge of human nature. I do not need to prove anything. Look at my ideas and judge them against what you know.

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Depending upon which poll you read, gay marriage is opposed by about 55% to 36% (source: University Polling Institute). Most "disinterested" polls show more opposition than support.

I do not believe polls. I believe voting results, demographic data, and historical analogies. Just because somebody asked 500 people a questionably worded list of questions gives me little confidence in predictive value. The sampling is never close to being statistically significant. Voting results and historical events are statistically significant.

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About three-quarters of Americans describe themselves as Christians (Pew Research).

I bet most of those remember they are Christians chiefly around Easter and Xmas. Meaningless.

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Neo-con's favor military intervention, while traditional conservatives tend to be more isolationist (go read some books).

Somewhat true, but who is in charge in the party? How many Reps strongly oppose wars and foreign interventions? How many speak up? How relevant they are within the party? What difference have they made?

Monkeyleg

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #214 on: November 17, 2012, 10:54:29 PM »
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Look at my ideas and judge them against what you know.

What you "know" and what you state may be the same, but just as with DeSelby, the facts are often at odds with what you state. I have a hard time letting blanket statements that are not true just get thrown around.


TommyGunn

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #215 on: November 17, 2012, 11:08:33 PM »
NumbersUSA and similar organizations are very prominent in the argument. They flat out say they don't want more immigration, and not just illegal. They strike me as pretty conservative. They keep lobbing for stopping the importation of skilled labor, because native computer programmers cannot find jobs, for example.

First, I don't think NumbersUSA necessarily represents all conservatives.  Secondly, if skilled laborers are being imported and keeping native borne skilled laborers unemployed maybe that SHOULD be stopped.  "Charity begins at home," says an old bromide.  We are a nation of immigrants but why bring in immigrants if it's hurtful to our own people?  An examination of the history of immigration in this country shows our policy has not always been open to everyone and at times we've shut out certain countries entirely.  
It's one thing when both sides benefit but it's another to "cut our nose off to spite our face."

Yes, incorporate them. Welcome them. Treat them as equals. Legalize them in exchange for them following the laws of the country, paying taxes, doing jury duty, etc. Like everybody else. Why is this hard to understand?

They went from hell through hell to come to America. I bet most believe in America more strongly than many natives.
What do you tell the immigrants who spent years and lots of their hard earned money to come here legally?  What you say sounds beneficent but it causes those who obey the law resentment and tells others who may want to do it legally there's absolutly no benefit to do so and every benefit to come illegally and thus we lose even more control over the border.
Sure the illegals "went through hell."
I've been to Caribbean Islands were I saw children running naked in dirt streets living in shanty huts made out of corrogated aluminum sidings and discarded plywood platforms, with sewage running down open ditches along the edges of those streets.  Those kids weren't "going through" hell they were living there, and neither them or there parents had a snowball's chance in _____ of getting here unless they could swim across a sea and beat the sharks.


If some self-deport, that is fine. But when you get up and say that you will apply pressure for them to leave, what hispanics hear is something very different.

Sure, when you're running a campaign for office it's ... "un-politic" to talk about self deportation.  It makes one sound like an insensitive uncaring lout solely after more political power to be used only to enrich one's own cronies.
Not that I've heard any of those democrat contenders who whine about how the immigrants coming here will inrich our country with greater diversity evince the slightest bit of concern over those Caribbean children running naked in their sewage besoted streets or how helping them will enrich us.  :mad:
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

CAnnoneer

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #216 on: November 17, 2012, 11:16:32 PM »
What you "know" and what you state may be the same, but just as with DeSelby, the facts are often at odds with what you state. I have a hard time letting blanket statements that are not true just get thrown around.

So, what are you saying then? Is it that in your view one must have a file of references and links before he posts any opinion, otherwise he pisses you off? Good luck with that.

CAnnoneer

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #217 on: November 17, 2012, 11:22:40 PM »
First, I don't think NumbersUSA necessarily represents all conservatives.  Secondly, if skilled laborers are being imported and keeping native borne skilled laborers unemployed maybe that SHOULD be stopped.  "Charity begins at home," says an old bromide.  

The reason why those software engineers could not get a job was because of the difference between their salary expectations and what the market value of their skill has become. That is a hard truth to swallow.

There was a time when software engineers were in great demand, while the available trained personnel was relatively scant. That drove up the remuneration. The dot com boom fueled that further. Well, we are way past that now. You can get a bunch of smart guys in India that will do an equal job for 45k an year, which by the way allows them to live quite well there. Welcome to globalization.

TommyGunn

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #218 on: November 17, 2012, 11:23:59 PM »
Reps lost not because of how they present themselves but because of who they are and what they believe in. That is another thing that absolutely stunning to me - all the talk in the media about how they have to "bribe" and "woo". Translation to me: We still think what we think, we keep our outdated attitudes, but we well buy and dupe people into voting for us. Except nobody is fooled anymore. That is why I talked about a profound soul-searching and redefinition of priorities and goals towards more freedom and less pettiness.
I strongly disagree. They lost because we assumed that people knew what conservativism was but they didn't, the democrats did a better job of selling themselves.


That is not going to last. It is only the beginning of a widening gap. If Reps remain the same, they will consistently lose and increasingly badly so from now on. This year was the watershed. It is downhill from now, all the way to marginalization and irrelevance.  

We'll see.  Hope you polished your crystal ball.   The death--knell of conservativism has been sounded before, and it was wrong then and is wrong now.

They do have their problems, but demographic changes work for further solidification for them, not disintegration. When the crazies die off like Biden and Kucinich (sp?), you see the new guard emerging the likes of Obambie. They will not fall apart. And they are shifting attention from gays and gun control to fiscal and ethnic issues. They are far smarter and more dangerous than you give them credit.

Conservatism can only come back in prosperity. No poor country is conservative. If things start falling apart, I predict Venezuela, not Switzerland. Liberals can never run out of money. They simply blame it on others or take it from others.


No poor country is conservative?  "Poor countries" are poor either from lack of natural resources or a dictatorial government that proscibes freedom.  What is seen in the world is a lack of freedom.   The former USSR was poor, but not from lack of resources.  Now that it is no longer communist it is becoming slightly more ...."capitalist" and thus a little richer than it used to be.  But deep corruption remains in that system.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 12:07:08 AM by TommyGunn »
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

TommyGunn

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #219 on: November 18, 2012, 12:02:23 AM »
I'll get back to entitlements later. Let's focus on the military.

I am not saying let's be weak. I am saying how strong do we need to be? Why can't we just have a national military like the UK or Switzerland, defend our borders, and have a Pacific and an Atlantic fleet. Let somebody else police the world. Let them lose lives and treasure, and be hated everywhere. Why do WE have to do it? What we have now is global military, which as a nation we do not need at all.
So let China or Russia "police" the world?  You're kidding, right?  You want THEM policing the world when we've become a country much dependant on trade.  That's insane.

If international corporations want major traffic lanes open, freedom of operation in hot regions, etc., let them pay for their own security force, not bribe politicians to send troops (national volunteers or mercenaries) on taxpayer coin.
And add the price of that extra security to the goods they sell?  How do the taxpayers, who will be consumers as well, win there? I doubt there are many private security agencies up to that task anyway.  Just what we need if that isn't true ---major corporations having their own private thugs answerable to no one outside the CEO.


And why do we care if Russia and China apply influence in their spheres? At least in some ways they are more capitalist than we are. USSR is gone and dead. Modern Russia is not communist, even if run by former KGBists. It is a corrupt state with its own problems. So is China. Again, if they want to waste coin and lives in remote toilets, let them do so..
We OUGHT to care because their influence is likely not benign and is not under our control.  Ours is.  Modern Russia is not communist but that hasn't made them into a benign republic, the country is still run by thugs and rife with corruption.
China has adopted some capitalist trappings in order to expand but politically they're just as red communist as they ever were and it's naive to consider what they're doing "wast(ing) coin and lives in remote toilets."

I do not think there are any more gays today percentage-wise than there were 2,000 years ago. They are a few percent of the population, maybe as large as 10% by some estimates, if including bisexuals and ones still in the closet. I do not see how this can destabilize the modern family. The argument is particularly questionable considering some 50% divorce rates among the heterosexuals. Further, gays have children and rear them just fine. They use surrogate mothers or sperm donors or simply adopt. I do not see how abandoned children getting a loving family of gays to take care of them is worse than the child growing up in a home and the gays spending their lives childless.

No one knows the % of gays in Rome or Greece back then.  Furthermore one shouldn't necesssarily conflate homosexuality with homosexual behaviour.
True that the heterosexual divorce rate of 50% is off-putting, but a large part of that is due to more liberal divorce laws.


Rome existed for centuries after they developed the lack of respect for traditional relationships. May our own country be so lucky to exist another 500 years.

500 Years?  My, you're quite the optimist ..... our downfall will have nothing to do with gay issues.  It will have to do with our fiscal cupidity.  

This only tells me that a change of taxes for them will impact the fed revenue disproportionately than one for the average person.  

What is your point? If you are making 400k an year you are making the same as POTUS. The average voter makes about 50k. If you go and tell him, "Hey, I am not rich. The fed is taxing me too much already.", what will his reaction be? Most likely, "JFC, I barely live paycheck from paycheck supporting my family. Difficult to have much sympathy for you, buddy." I personally want ideally no more than 5% tax on everybody, but that is a different story. Here we are talking about what will fly with voters and how conservatives mishandle the issue.
My point was that while Obama claims that only the top income earners will be paying higher taxes, his definition of "rich" reaches down into the area of small business owners, a point I clarified in subsequent paragraphs.

I have no doubt that that is exactly what is going to happen. That is one of the reasons I abhor Obamacare. However, the tax issue remains mishandled, because the conservatives obstinately refuse to admit that there is an upper bound of income bracket that makes sense to protect. Sure, there are many small businesses that look wealthy to the average person, but employ many people, and will lay people off if taxes increase. But, there is an even further crust that is even wealthier, and does not give a *expletive deleted* about even a large increase percentage wise. They are so rich personally and their assets are so protected, that to them it will make a small difference if any. Instead, the Reps got bogged down in a stupid argument about plumber Joe type outfits.

I don't see anything wrong with conservatives defending "plumber Joe" type outfits -- they're far more common and more easily identified with by the common man than the uppercrust rich people some think ought to be fair game for confiscatory taxation.
As for trying to protecting an "upper bound of income bracket" the reason to protect them is to keep them.  They have the money and the where-withal to pack up and leave America and some are doing so and taking their corporations with them.  These people -- if you listen to them -- will tell you it is now easier to start companies in a Communist country than America.
This condition should shame every American.  It isn't what we should want and it will severely hurt us in the future if this condition is allowed to continue.

If you do it like that, it will certainly not work. People find loopholes or simply readjust. But, I would also counter-argue that they just spent their money elsewhere or reinvested it, so while the yacht-makers lost business, others gained.

Not too many; Monkeyleg entered a post here explaining how a lot more businesses were hurt by the luxury tax than just the yacht makers.

I do not want income tax for anybody. But, if there must be one, let's apply it fairly and intelligently. What is happening now is a joke. There are extremely rich people who pay lower rates than their secretaries. To them, the accumulation of wealth has become a surreal exercise. Conservatives say, don't touch them. The average person cannot take such a position seriously.

Geeesh.  :facepalm: The secretaries VS. the boss arguement AGAIN. :facepalm:  Let me point out that if the "Boss" is invested in the company he is probably taking profits from a portfolio and is thus subject to "capital gains" tax which is currently at about 15%.  If viewed as a strict percentile rate next to his secretary's tax, which is more likely an income tax it certainly will look like the secretary is paying more.  But the smaller % of the Boss's much much larger income will very likely be a far greater amount in dollars than his lower-paid secretary.  
This idiot's canard was thrown about all too wildly this past election cycle and it has sickened me.  People don't get it.  They buy into it, sure, because it sounds horrible and greedy and feeds the damned politicians' class warfare scenario all too well.

I personally have no problem with wealth. If you are smart and work hard and make billions, all the more power to you. Yeah, go ahead and hire people and generate prosperity. But you cannot seriously expect your employees to pay higher percentage taxes on their piddly income, when you use CPAs and a thousand loopholes, in the misguided self-validating surreal impetus to be even richer, faster.
There are no longer the "thousand loopholes" you imagine.  Fifty, sixty years ago, when the top nominal income tax rate was about 91% there actually was, and because of that those people in that incometax bracket usually paid an average of about 30% of their income in taxes --- A LOWER RATE THEN WHAT WE'RE DEBATING TODAY BY EITHER THE REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT PLANS.

Except they don't act like it, even if they are. I cannot tell them apart with a scorecard.

They younger generations are more comfortable with secularism than with religion. There are concomitant consequences on the electorate.


Both the above are more likely fads that will alter as time goes by.  You ought not need or use a scorecard .... they don't always work so well.   ;)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 12:08:35 AM by TommyGunn »
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Monkeyleg

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #220 on: November 18, 2012, 12:15:26 AM »
Quote
Welcome to globalization.

Studies show that people who complain about globalization are usually sexual predators.

Perd Hapley

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #221 on: November 18, 2012, 12:36:57 AM »
This. Although IIRC Fistful does not claim to be libertarian?

Depends on how the term is defined.


Quote
Don't exist? When a gay man can't visit his husband (yes, I'm deliberately using that term) when he's dying in the hospital, because they "aren't really married", that's a problem that *DOES* exist. When a gay woman is not considered family for that same "reason" after her wife's death, and probate cuts her out from the resources she and her wife had, that's a problem that *DOES* exist. I'm sure there are other issues that more than a half-second's worth of thought would raise, but those two are IMO more than enough.

In the first case, yeah, hospitals could probably change some of their policies. That has nothing to do with marriage (or fake marriage) though. In the second case, we're just pretending that two women can be married. That is obviously an absurd claim. If one person feels such a strong attachment to another person, and their relationship doesn't fit the definition of marriage, they should make other arrangements. They shouldn't whine when the government doesn't recognize as marriage what is not recognizable as a marriage. Once again, a little rational thought would help, here. And, yeah, we could loosen up the laws for non-traditional folks to make arrangements. But it shouldn't be based on their private sexual practices that have no effect on society.


Quote
Yeah, I'd rather that government at all levels got its freaking nose out of the marriage business altogether. There's no REASON for it to be involved at all.

Sigh. Emotion is outrunning reason again. Having government recognize marriage has mostly worked, so far. It makes things easier; clarifies matters for the legalities like which kid belongs to who, and so on. Could we figure out some other way? Perhaps, but let's find a better reason, than mollycoddling a small group of very confused people who think they are entitled to things to which they have no serious claim.

Quote
But if it recognizes and validates and provides benefits for one group, then it needs to be equitable in doing so for ALL. Favoritism on the basis of sexual orientation is not a valid function of the government. Indeed, it would seem to me to be explicitly forbidden by the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment, applicable to government at all levels. How can it POSSIBLY be justified?

They don't deserve SPECIAL rights or treatment, but they do deserve EQUAL rights and treatment. And they don't currently GET them.

 ;/ Marriage itself, not the law, favors heterosexuality. Because it is a heterosexual institution. Homosexuals have always been welcome, legally. (To marry those of the opposite sex, like everyone else. See, equality and fairness.)
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Perd Hapley

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #222 on: November 18, 2012, 12:37:48 AM »
Studies show that people who complain about globalization are usually sexual predators.


 :laugh: I see what you did there.
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erictank

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #223 on: November 18, 2012, 01:29:55 AM »
Depends on how the term is defined.

The definitions at http://www.lp.org/faq, http://www.libertarianism.com/, http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/libertarianism.html, and http://www.laissez-fairerepublic.com/libertar.htm seem to me to be workable. There are certainly others (I try to adhere to L. Neil Smith's Zero-Aggression Policy, seen at http://www.ncc-1776.org/whoislib.html, and consider that a working definition).

Your expressed positions in certain matters, notably the ones in this thread, certainly do not support the notion that you are a libertarian.

In the first case, yeah, hospitals could probably change some of their policies. That has nothing to do with marriage (or fake marriage) though. In the second case, we're just pretending that two women can be married. That is obviously an absurd claim. If one person feels such a strong attachment to another person, and their relationship doesn't fit the definition of marriage, they should make other arrangements. They shouldn't whine when the government doesn't recognize as marriage what is not recognizable as a marriage. Once again, a little rational thought would help, here. And, yeah, we could loosen up the laws for non-traditional folks to make arrangements. But it shouldn't be based on their private sexual practices that have no effect on society.

 :facepalm: Seriously? We use the word 'marriage' these days (for DECADES now, even!) for such things as putting words to music, the construction of a perfect sports car, and the melding to two or more generic objects in any of a variety of ways - and the public and private union of two human beings who deeply love one another and consider themselves part of one another does *NOT* qualify for that word IYO???

I just don't even know what else to say to such a breathtaking display of ignorance and bigotry.

Sigh. Emotion is outrunning reason again. Having government recognize marriage has mostly worked, so far.

And Mussolini allegedly made the trains run on time. ;/ Just because something can be said to have "worked", for certain values of the word, doesn't make it right.

It makes things easier; clarifies matters for the legalities like which kid belongs to who, and so on. Could we figure out some other way? Perhaps, but let's find a better reason, than mollycoddling a small group of very confused people who think they are entitled to things to which they have no serious claim.

John and Mike don't deserve the same treatment under law as every other citizen of the United States? Jenna doesn't deserve to sit by Karen's side as she draws her last breath in the hospital? They don't deserve to inherit the home and property they spent years building up together with their spouses?  They don't deserve EXACTLY THE SAME RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES with respect to their spouses as you do to yours? Simply because they love someone whose sex organs are in the same places as their own?

Again, I simply don't know how to respond to this.

;/ Marriage itself, not the law, favors heterosexuality. Because it is a heterosexual institution. Homosexuals have always been welcome, legally. (To marry those of the opposite sex, like everyone else. See, equality and fairness.)

Bullshit. And you KNOW IT.

If the situation were reversed, would you be satisfied to be "free" to marry another man you did not and could not love, or "live in sin" with a woman you did? Would you be satisfied to have a heterophobe family strip away from you everything you and your wife built together, after her death (which you couldn't be there for, because of them and because of legally-permitted discrimination against those "unnatural straights"?), because that was "fair and equal treatment" permitted under the law?

No?

Then those words you're using, "equality" and "fairness"? They don't mean what you think they mean.

You couldn't PAY me to give a damn about your (or anyone else's) religious views on the appropriateness or sinfulness of, well, pretty much anything - that's your business, and you're welcome to it. Try to make that into some sort of justification for violating the rights of others? I'll do my best to see to it that you are ... disappointed.

longeyes

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Re: The next Obama
« Reply #224 on: November 18, 2012, 01:58:43 AM »
Incorrect.  Buffet doesn't SELL his shares in B-H, that would be stupid.  His income is DIVIDENDS, hence my point.  And since B-H is attempting to show a profit to its shareholders, they actually have to do so.  When people talk about buffet's income, they (and he) are referring the dividends on his Berkshire Hathaway holdings.  When he talks about his effective tax rates, he is referring to the taxes on his DIVIDENDS, which compose effectively all of his income.  There isn't any hiding, as I said before, B-H is highly profitable, and since any money that goes to profits is also taxed as profits (all the "hiding" you refer to is done to reduce the portion of after earnings after expenses, but by DEFINITION, any money that gets distributed as dividends is taxed as corporate profits).

I believe you are misunderstanding my point.

Just to niggle...  Berkshire-Hathaway has never paid a dividend and has no plan to.
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