Pondering a big bore pistol for hiking

[mtnbkr]

Yea, likely will. Not thrilled with the prospect, but oh well. Now I have to sort through the various models. I'd ideally want something as streamlined as possible, and preferably compact but heavy. I want it to take up the least amount of space in my bag as possible, but weigh enough that the recoil is actually manageable. I'll look into shoulder holsters and the whatnot, probably make my own if necessary.

Why do you not like the 44mag?  With sane loads, it's not as obnoxious as the 357mag with hot loads. 

IMO, the 629 I posted at the beginning is about as close to ideal for your stated purpose.  A 3" barrel, while kind of rare, may help in the toting dept, but my 4" rides nicely in a Threepersons style holster and would be concealable under a longish shirt or jacket.  The RB grips can get pretty small if you go down to Magnas with a Tyler T-grip, but you have the flexibility to go to SB conversion grips for range use.

Recoil-wise, a good fitting grip (very important!) with 240s@1000fps will be comfortable to shoot.  Out of the 629, I find 240s@800fps to be like 38special out of a k-frame and 250s@1200 to be more like your typical mid-range 357mag.  Above that, recoil starts to get brisk (in the 629, still not bad in a Redhawk), but you wouldn't use those loads for anything but "real work".

This is a video of me shooting my 5.5" Redhawk at a pin shoot years ago.  The Redhawk is a bit heavier than the 629.  The load is a 240gr LSWC at 1000fps using Trail Boss powder, so it's just a warm 44special load.  Maybe that'll give you an idea of recoil at the low to mid end of the scale...

As slow as I was, I turned in the fastest time at that point in the day (ended up being in the top 3rd of the field).  The holster is a Threepersons style, so you can see how it rides.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yin6MjxNDFw

Chris

[charby]

H110.  No, I will not share the load as it was HOT.  I probably fired 500+ with no obvious negative effects, but it was not a book load or even close. 

Chris

I'll never share my 10mm mag or 45 colt experiments either.

[Tallpine]

Looks like options are "probably good enough with .357 and premium ammo" or "definitely good to go for PA wild life with .44 mag and off the shelf common ammo". Most of the other options seem to be less common types of caliber, which may be just as good or better but slightly more uncommon.

Yes, but go for the .44 mag :)

In this case, go big bore.  You already have plenty of pistols for town, so there's no need to get a double duty revolver.

[AZRedhawk44]

Be careful. You might be hard to find a 180g deep hollow point just because 180g of metal fills up the space on a .357 magnum hollow point. Plus I don't think any of them designed for .357 magnum will stay together at those speeds.

.44, not .357.  No deathwish here.  Looking for a really light-for-caliber .44 bullet with a big, deep ashtray.  Something I can push it so fast that it is pushing jacket separation, and when it hits so much as an apple, the bullet shatters from the velocity, rotational forces and sudden resistance.

[mtnbkr]

What you need is a 44mag version of Speer's 38 "short barrel" load. :D

Chris

[AZRedhawk44]

I was thinking that the Speer GDHP would probably be a good candidate, actually.  Not sure if that, or the XTP, would give me more internal case capacity at the crimp line.

This is all about "H110 all the way to the top, then crimp that boolit on good and let 'er rip!"

I suspect the GDHP would be more satisfying since it is usually limited in loading and design/application to .44 special rather than magnum.  XTP's are pretty much designed to be magnum-compatible, meaning I'd get less separation or fragmentation.

[mtnbkr]

I found the XTP, at least for 357, puts more bullet below the crimp than many others.  It was a challenge for me to develop a powerful 357mag 180gr load because of that.

Chris

[mtnbkr]

If you cast, you could always get a mould made for that purpose.  There are a couple companies that do custom moulds for a good price.  One has an online tool for designing your own.

Chris

[AZRedhawk44]

What you need is a 44mag version of Speer's 38 "short barrel" load. :D

Chris

Not my 4" Redhawk... the 5.5" one.  I'll have enough barrel to make use of most of that H110, though I'll still probably have a decent fireball as well:



Slightly different than this older pic of it... it now sports a green fiber optic front sight and one of the Hogue Bantam rubber grips similar to what comes on the 4" Redhawks.  Great grip.  I think it perfects what can be done with the Redhawk grip.  Much higher natural grip position than the wood monogrip, without subjecting the shooter to the nasty knucklebashing that you get with the stock wood grips.  Nice and slim, too.

Frankly, I find AA#7 to be the perfect burn rate for the 5.5" Redhawk and a reasonable 200-250gr bullet.  Recoil, lack of fireball, power delivered to target and so on.  H110/Win296/LilGun/etc seem to respond well to 8" barrels, from what I've seen with friends with longer barreled .44, .45/.454 and .480 platforms.  Where does 2400 fall on the burn rate spectrum?  faster than H110?

[41magsnub]

Maybe the old school pre lawyer hand load recipes for the .357 magnum. I shot a wounded flopping doe whitetail deer in the head with a .357 magnum to kill it and my 180g XTP 1100fps hand loads didn't exit, it did blow all the brain matter and the top of the skull in a nice little circle around the deer's head.

Years ago I shot a muley doe in the head at contact distance with my security six firing a Speer JSP.  I was in a coulee waiting for them and they just kept coming closer and closer.  When this doe was right next to me I couldn't resist.

It was very messy.  And loud..  I caught a bunch of splatter in the face and I am never doing that again...   Did I mention how loud it was?

[mtnbkr]

Where does 2400 fall on the burn rate spectrum?  faster than H110?

Faster than H110.  Not much is slower in a handgun than good ol' H110 (it's a fast rifle powder as well).

Chris

[mtnbkr]

Did I mention how loud it was?

What?

my wife loves when I do that

Chris

[charby]

I was thinking that the Speer GDHP would probably be a good candidate, actually.  Not sure if that, or the XTP, would give me more internal case capacity at the crimp line.

This is all about "H110 all the way to the top, then crimp that boolit on good and let 'er rip!"

I suspect the GDHP would be more satisfying since it is usually limited in loading and design/application to .44 special rather than magnum.  XTP's are pretty much designed to be magnum-compatible, meaning I'd get less separation or fragmentation.

or the DCHP but they start at 240g. I'm not sure either one of them will hold together above 1500fps.

[charby]

Not my 4" Redhawk... the 5.5" one.  I'll have enough barrel to make use of most of that H110, though I'll still probably have a decent fireball as well:

I've actually gotten away from H110 and gone to AA#9. Similar results with a lot less muzzle flash.

[AZRedhawk44]

I've actually gotten away from H110 and gone to AA#9. Similar results with a lot less muzzle flash.

AA9 is on my "to try" list, after liking AA7 so much.

[charby]

AA9 is on my "to try" list, after liking AA7 so much.

its even finer grained then H110 so it can be messy when reloading.

[roo_ster]

AZR:

Some of the nastiest .44mag loads I have shot were 180gr.  They seem like the equivalent of hot 125gr in .357mag.  All sorts of subjective muzzle blast.


Rev:

mtnbkr speaks truth WRT 1000fps + 240gr LSWC out of N-frame or such revolvers.  Mild recoil, but effective penetration in a hard cast bullet.  I like them out of my SW629 4" and my wife's Rossi M92 lever gun.  They have been my 629 carry load, as I found nothing like them until I looked at Buffalo Bore's .44mag offerings recently.

mtnbkr spoke of 3" bbl, but 2.5" bbl is more common and is very "snub-nose-like" in handling.  Though for shoulder and IWB holster carry, the 4" bbl is just fine and loses nothing to the shorter bbls as far as concealment.  OWB or cross-draw is where the shorter bbl helps concealment.  4" bbl in .44mag is popular for good reason.

Nice thing about .44mag is that if you Go West, you can kick it up a couple notches and have a reasonable hiking revolver, with nothing more powerful handgun-wise than the few guys toting .454Casull revos.

[AZRedhawk44]

Rev, one thing to consider when getting into .44mag:

You can have VERY different recoil impulse feelings from what "should" be very similar stereotypical 240gr JSP loadings.  Winchester, Remington, Magtech and Hornady may each offer a 1200fps 240gr JSP of some sort for sale over the counter... and each of them may use a different burn rate of powder or different cartridge length and crimp depth resulting in different feelings when firing.

Then to make matters worse, they will change their powder whenever they want.

You can have two boxes of Winchester WWB 240gr JSP ammo from Walmart and see that the primer is different, and feel that the powder is different when shooting.

I find shooting anything at full retail power (or even hotter... full handload power) is a very subjective experience.  My typical plinking 240gr LSWC load is only a skosh hotter than mtnbkr's pinshooting load he mentioned earlier, and it's right at my happy spot for power to recoil.

I do NOT like shooting retail ammo in my .44.  I just never know what I'm getting into with each box.  I can beat the flinch when I make my own ammo, even with H110 loads and 300gr pills, because I know what to expect.  But I get beat by it when I shoot mystery ammo.

If you're not going to get into handloading, then I suggest you meet up with someone here on APS whom you trust and find a way to get him to work up some suitable and consistent .44mag loads.  It's just super important in this platform and heavier to shoot consistent feeling ammo.

[mtnbkr]

Yup, brainfart on my part wrt 2.5" vs 3".  

It can't be said enough, recoil mitigation is significantly impacted by grip fit.  Too big or too small will hurt.  It took me a long time to find proper grips for my Redhawk to facilitate the heavy loads I shoot through it, mainly because of the oversized gripframe on that gun (I have smallish hands for a dude).

If you get the N-frame, you'll have a lot of options, even more-so with a RB frame.  Don't accept the factory offerings unless they just happen to work for you.

Chris

[AZRedhawk44]

Yup, brainfart on my part wrt 2.5" vs 3".  

It can't be said enough, recoil mitigation is significantly impacted by grip fit.  Too big or too small will hurt.  It took me a long time to find proper grips for my Redhawk to facilitate the heavy loads I shoot through it, mainly because of the oversized gripframe on that gun (I have smallish hands for a dude).

If you get the N-frame, you'll have a lot of options, even more-so with a RB frame.  Don't accept the factory offerings unless they just happen to work for you.

Chris

Huge +1 to grip size.

If you do decide to shop the Ruger side of the aisle, keep in mind that the SRH grip frame will probably have more grip choices than the standard Redhawk.  The SRH also has a shorter distance from grip backstrap to trigger face.  

The shortest big magnum Ruger offers is the "Alaskan" model, which is a SRH, not a Redhawk.  2.5" barrel, I think.  That will have lots of aftermarket grip options and I think they even share commonality with GP100 style grips.

That being said, the grips shipping with the 4" .44mag and .45colt Redhawks recently are freaking awesome.

[zxcvbob]

DO NOT put a set of rosewood grips with awesome checkering on a big-bore magnum revolver.  Just don't.  And they look so pretty you won't take them off, even tho' they rip up your palms when you shoot.

[mtnbkr]

DO NOT put a set of rosewood grips with awesome checkering on a big-bore magnum revolver.  Just don't.  And they look so pretty you won't take them off, even tho' they rip up your palms when you shoot.

I have a set of awesome walnut grips with aggressive stippling on my Redhawk.  Works just fine.  Rubber grips don't work for me (grabs my skin), nor do they appreciably absorb shock.

Chris

[zxcvbob]

I have a set of awesome walnut grips with aggressive stippling on my Redhawk.  Works just fine.  Rubber grips don't work for me (grabs my skin), nor do they appreciably absorb shock.

Chris

Mine is a Ruger Bisley .45LC.  The difference might be the Bisleys are supposed to roll with the recoil and the checkering prevents that.  So I just don't shoot more than a dozen gristle-bear loads at a time. (they are not fun after that anyway)  But if I keep 230 - 255 grain bullets under about 1100 fps instead of 1300+ and I can shoot a hundred or so w/o problems.

I really should put the smooth walnut grips on just to try it (the gun came with fancy checkered grips already installed and the plain grips in the box)

[French G.]

When I had a Vaquero I bought a fair amount of .44spl gold dot factory loads. Pleasant to shoot. I still want a 329.

[AZRedhawk44]

AZR:

Some of the nastiest .44mag loads I have shot were 180gr.  They seem like the equivalent of hot 125gr in .357mag.  All sorts of subjective muzzle blast.

Thanks, roo_ster.  I've played this game in the past, a long time back when I first got the 5.5" Redhawk... just to get a feel for what all loadings were possible.  I do remember the fireball was monstrous with 180 and 200gr lead bullets I was shooting back then, and Win296/H110.  Then I decided I would subscribe to the Keith theory of handgun loading (hard cast, flat meplat, no expansion and 100% crushing power) and have been hanging out there for awhile.  Stabilized for the most part on 240gr LSWC, AA#7 at 16.0gr and a slightly longer than standard COAL of 1.685".  I lack a chrony but I'm guessing it's about 1300fps.

Re-reading that passage from Unintended Consequences where Henry blows away the rapists in the woods reminded me that I wanted to try and develop a similar load for my Redhawk, just to see how destructive a light hollowpoint at 2000fps could be.  If his S&W can handle it, then my Redhawk can, too.  I can load longer OAL's and leave more case capacity to decrease pressure, and the cylinder and frame are stronger.  Only thing he had was a barrel that was about 2 7/8" longer than mine.  I'm not rushing off to build a hand grenade or anything, but I really want to knock on that 1900-2000fps wall with a handgun.