Author Topic: How much worse before it gets better  (Read 10757 times)

taurusowner

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Re: How much worse before it gets better
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2008, 10:10:24 AM »
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While this economic debate is interesting, and a good theory for a portion fo the country, there's a large portion fo our population that lives on "middle class" income or below.  A good portion of these are the people we refer to around the courthouse as "entitlements".  These are the people that believe they are entitled to certain things for no other reason than they exist.  As a breathing human being, they are entitled to food stamps and reduced cost rent.  They are entitled to sell grass or meth to pay for the big flat panel tv and fancy car, and then entitled to a lawyer when they get caught, and entitled to probation when they are convicted.  They are entitled to a second, third, and fourth chance on probation before being sent to prison.  In prison, they are entitled to cable television, free mail, and educational opportunities.  When they get out, they are entitled to public assistance to helpthem get "back on their feet."  If they smoke weed, they are entitled to disability because they are chemically dependent.  I cannot begin to tell you how frustrating it is to drive in to work in my 1996 Dodge Intrepid and take the bench wearing dress clothes bought at Kohl's (a lower priced department store), only to find the first case involved parents whose children are in foster care because of various issues, and see those people drive up in a Cadillac Escalade, get out wearing Armani, Boss, etc., and listen to them complain about how the system is keeping them down.  Meanwhile, I'm still paying off my student loans, living in a house that truly didn't cost too much more than teh fancy car they drove in, and wondering how it is that I made the right choices.

I don't mind so much the government helping those truly in need, but when I cannot put another criminal in lock-up because we don't have it in the budget, and Hillary and Obama are talking about bailing out people who bought $250,000 homes on a $25,000 a year income, it steams me.

You are spot on Chris.  Who pays for all of those entitlements?  Rich people.  Who pays the majority of the taxes that fund those social programs?  Rich people.  Who starts the companies that provides jobs to those in need?  Rich people.

What happens when the businesses and rich people decide to stop opening their pockets to people looking for handouts?  What happens when the source of tax money for all those social programs dries up?  All those people have grown up on food stamps, reduced rent, and free money.  They don't know how to live life themselves.  What happens when their safety net vanishes?  What happens when the only one left to depend on is themselves, and they never learned how?

Manedwolf

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Re: How much worse before it gets better
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2008, 10:13:06 AM »
What happens when the businesses and rich people decide to stop opening their pockets to people looking for handouts? 

Democrats will raise taxes on the middle class.

Brad Johnson

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Re: How much worse before it gets better
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2008, 10:26:36 AM »
What happens when the businesses and rich people decide to stop opening their pockets to people looking for handouts? 

Democrats will raise taxes on the middle class.


And with that, I give you...

"The Tax Day Parable"

Brad


Quote
The Tax Day Parable

How Taxes Work . . .

This is a VERY simple way to understand the tax laws. Read on -- it does make you think!!

Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men  the poorest  would pay nothing; the fifth would pay $1, the sixth would pay $3, the seventh $7, the eighth $12, the ninth $18, and the tenth man  the richest  would pay $59.

That's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement  until one day, the owner threw them a curve (in tax language a tax cut).

"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." So now dinner for the ten only cost $80.00.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six  the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share?"

The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, Then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being PAID to eat their meal. So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by the same percent, each according to the amount of the $100 tab they had previously been paying.

And so, the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52 instead of his earlier $59. Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free.

But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar off my bill!" declared the sixth man who then pointed to the tenth. "But he got seven dollars!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man, "I only saved a dollar, too . . . It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!".

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man, "why should he get $7 back when I got only $2? Why should the wealthy get all the breaks?!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "We didn't get anything at all. When do we get something out of it?!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him. His injuries left him unable to work. He lost his profitable business and had to declare bankruptcy, selling all he owned to cover his medical treatment.

The next night he didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. Then it came time to pay the bill. Each reached in his walled and pulled out the accustomed amount - $2, $5, $9, and $12. But the bill was still $80 as before. They suddenly realized they were FIFTY-TWO DOLLARS short of paying the bill! They begged, pleading that the bill should be less since there were only nine of them now.

The restauranteur had no mercy. In order for him to serve his customers he had made long-term commitments to his suppliers, promising to buy a certain amount of products per month. He had also taken out large loans in order to purchase bulk products that allowed him to reduce expenses and provide the lower prices. Even though one patron was no longer present his manpower needs did not diminish. The remaining customers still demanded the same level of service. In short, his costs had remained the same despite one less person at the table. He immediately obtained a court order for services rendered, seizing all the men's possessions and confiscating their belongings. They were left with only the clothes on their backs and the knowledge that they had been their own undoing.

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college instructors, is how the tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction. It is simple mathematics. Just realize that they are also carrying the largest financial burden - a burden which allows the rest of us the luxury of a greatly reduced tax bill. Destroy their wealth through litigation, legislation, or regulation, and they just may not show up at the table anymore.

Then who do you think gets to pay the check?

It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

RocketMan

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Re: How much worse before it gets better
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2008, 04:07:30 PM »
I agree on the UK tabloids being pretty useless.  Most of what I see comes from the FT and Telegraph.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: How much worse before it gets better
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2008, 04:13:23 PM »
Wow... nobody mentioned the obvious...

"Who is John Galt?"

The Annoyed Man

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Re: How much worse before it gets better
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2008, 04:58:48 PM »
Why does the dinner cost as much for 9 as it did for 10?

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: How much worse before it gets better
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2008, 07:50:28 PM »
Why does the dinner cost as much for 9 as it did for 10?
Because the costs of operating a restaurant are largely independent of the number of customers that show up on any given night.  One less customer doesn't mean the owner's rent is reduced, or that his staff's wages are less, or that his inventory is cheaper.  When you run a business, you still have to pay your expenses regardless of how many customers you have.  You understand this, right?   undecided

It wouldn't matter even if the meal cost less for 9 people than for the 10.  Whether the meal costs $80 or $72, the poor diners can't pay for the meal without the rich man's $52.  Unless the rest of them want to pay their own fare share, they need the rich man's money.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: How much worse before it gets better
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2008, 08:05:25 PM »
I've been thinking about this problem for a few days now.  Among all the other economic problems in this country, add in the fact that the middle class no longer bothers to live within its means.  Things won't get better until that changes.

taurusowner

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Re: How much worse before it gets better
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2008, 09:35:44 PM »
Paddy, lets say you and 3 friends all got an apartment/house together.  Let's say it was $1000 a month.  And let us further say that you decide to divide the pay like our tax system and base the shares off income.  So the guy who has the highest paying job pays the most rent.  What if you are the guy with the high paying job? Should you be penalized simply because you put in more hard work on the job?  And how do you feel when your other 3 friends quite their jobs and the full $1000 lands on your shoulders?

Now what happens when the lease is up, and you, being tired of paying for everyone else decide to opt out and not renew....What is to become of the 3 freeloaders?

Nick1911

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Re: How much worse before it gets better
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2008, 04:37:50 AM »
Wow... nobody mentioned the obvious...

"Who is John Galt?"

 grin

I'm actually reading Atlas Shrugged right now.  I'm about 1/3 of the way through.  Every now and then, I see chilling similarities between Ayn Rands world and the real world.  This would be one of these times.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: How much worse before it gets better
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2008, 05:41:25 AM »
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Because the costs of operating a restaurant are largely independent of the number of customers that show up on any given night.  One less customer doesn't mean the owner's rent is reduced, or that his staff's wages are less, or that his inventory is cheaper.  When you run a business, you still have to pay your expenses regardless of how many customers you have.  You understand this, right?   

According to that 'logic', the price of each meal will vary depending on how many customers the restaurant had mtd and ytd.   You understand that is not the way restaurants set prices, right?  undecided   

Progressive taxation is nothing new.  Thomas Paine, sometimes known as the 'Father of the American Revolution', was an advocate and supporter of 'tax the rich, not the poor'.  Most of the taxes at the time were consumption taxes (duties) paid to England.  The burden fell more heavily on the working class and the poor while the wealthy landholders were relatively free of taxes.

But the main reason for progressive taxation was to prevent the rise of a new aristocracy, as inheritances grew each generation.  He knew that if the rich were allowed to pass all their wealth on to their heirs, the dynasties that formed would easily take over and corrupt the government.  He considered the accumulation of wealth anti democratic.

Thomas Jefferson also advocated progressive taxation.  He said "Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property, is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise."

Then, there is the whole concept of the 'commons' as a limited resource, but I won't go into that right away.  I'm sure I've already said enough to make some of you apoplectic.  laugh

The Annoyed Man

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Re: How much worse before it gets better
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2008, 06:05:19 AM »
What you're not paying attention to is that, while "the rich" will pay more in a progressive tax system, they wil also get more when there's a tax break. That's simple math...

K Frame

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Re: How much worse before it gets better
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2008, 06:10:05 AM »
Sigh...

More "the rich are parasitic bastards who deserve to be taxed until they're poor..."
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Manedwolf

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Re: How much worse before it gets better
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2008, 06:14:01 AM »
Sigh...

More "the rich are parasitic bastards who deserve to be taxed until they're poor..."

SUCCEEDING IS BAD. STAY IN YOUR CLASS NO ENTREPRENEURSHIP ALLOWED.

Pretty much it.

roo_ster

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Re: How much worse before it gets better
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2008, 07:00:23 AM »
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Because the costs of operating a restaurant are largely independent of the number of customers that show up on any given night.  One less customer doesn't mean the owner's rent is reduced, or that his staff's wages are less, or that his inventory is cheaper.  When you run a business, you still have to pay your expenses regardless of how many customers you have.  You understand this, right?   
Progressive taxation is nothing new.  Thomas Paine, sometimes known as the 'Father of the American Revolution', was an advocate and supporter of 'tax the rich, not the poor'.  Most of the taxes at the time were consumption taxes (duties) paid to England.  The burden fell more heavily on the working class and the poor while the wealthy landholders were relatively free of taxes.

But the main reason for progressive taxation was to prevent the rise of a new aristocracy, as inheritances grew each generation.  He knew that if the rich were allowed to pass all their wealth on to their heirs, the dynasties that formed would easily take over and corrupt the government.  He considered the accumulation of wealth anti democratic.

TP & TJ should have been introduced to the concept of "regression toward the mean," and they would not have worried themsleves.

Given how many fortunes have been made by exceptional men, is it not interesting that we have so few old-money fortunes?  Most get dissipated after the originator dies, because his offspring are not nearly as exceptional.
Regards,

roo_ster

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----G.K. Chesterton

charby

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Re: How much worse before it gets better
« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2008, 07:08:03 AM »
Just face it, were all going to be suffering for a few years until wages catch up with increases in food, durable goods and fuel.


Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

Uranus is a gas giant.

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The Annoyed Man

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Re: How much worse before it gets better
« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2008, 07:12:55 AM »
after spending an evening sipping vodka and thinking, I've just come to realize that my best bet is to worry about that which I can do something about, and stop worrying about things outside my control.  If history has taught me anything, it's that the government takes care of its own.  My job is safe.  My wife works for one of the largest insurace companies in America, and is secure in her job.  We've lived within our means.  Some may say below our means.

And if the Great Revolution comes, you'll all save me, because even though I'm a government hack, I'm one of you.  Right? grin

Brad Johnson

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Re: How much worse before it gets better
« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2008, 07:38:33 AM »
Just face it, were all going to be suffering for a few years until wages catch up with increases in food, durable goods and fuel.

Living beyond your means is a choice.  It has nothing to do with wages "catching up" to anything.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: How much worse before it gets better
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2008, 07:59:45 AM »
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Because the costs of operating a restaurant are largely independent of the number of customers that show up on any given night.  One less customer doesn't mean the owner's rent is reduced, or that his staff's wages are less, or that his inventory is cheaper.  When you run a business, you still have to pay your expenses regardless of how many customers you have.  You understand this, right?   

According to that 'logic', the price of each meal will vary depending on how many customers the restaurant had mtd and ytd.   You understand that is not the way restaurants set prices, right?  undecided   
It seems that you don't understand the difference between costs and prices.  The total cost of the meal (which is what you had asked about) is fixed,  the cost per-customer varies according to how many customers the restaurant has.  The price is whatever the owner and the customers agree on, which in this particular scenario is $80.  You prove my previous point:

I think the problem is that the voting public doesn't understand economics any more.  It's truly staggering how few people understand basic economic concepts like prices, profits, costs, incentives, and so forth.

Go reread the scenario.  The owner's cost of delivering the food is independent of the number of diners that show up on any given night.  The per-meal cost is higher when the number of meals served is lower.  The total cost remains the same, and the owner reflects that by charging the same total price.

This is exactly how restaurants catering to groups set their prices.  They get a commitment from the group as to how many diners will show up.  Based on that, they agree on a total price.  The owner charges the group the agreed-upon price even if fewer diners show up for the meal.

Manedwolf

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Re: How much worse before it gets better
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2008, 08:07:37 AM »
Just face it, were all going to be suffering for a few years until wages catch up with increases in food, durable goods and fuel.

Will they?

They didn't keep up with housing.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: How much worse before it gets better
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2008, 08:21:14 AM »
Just face it, were all going to be suffering for a few years until wages catch up with increases in food, durable goods and fuel.

Will they?

They didn't keep up with housing.
Wait until the housing bubble finishes bursting.

Also remember that housing quality is improving.  Houses built today have better materials, better appliances, more rooms, more space, and better layouts now than they did 20 or 30 years ago.

My grandparents raised their 4 children in an old 1300 SF home.  No air conditioning, no dishwasher/microwave/disposal, no garage, and a a boiler/radiator heating system that would scald unwary children.  There were only 3 bedrooms, so none of the children had their own room, and the rooms they shared were quite small. Only one bathroom in the house, so they all had to share that, too.  Enough of a backyard to string a clothesline, but not much else.  They had it good and they knew it.  They determined their needs based on their means, not the other way around.

Try suggesting to a middle class family with 4 children today that they can live comfortably in that sort of house.  Worse, try telling them that they should live in that sort of house, because that's all they they can really afford.  Be prepared to duck.

Today families want 2500 SF or more, 4 or 5 bedrooms, just as many bathrooms, a large kitchen full of expensive appliances, a 2 or 3 car attached garage, a big backyard, all in a nice safe suburban neighborhood that's close to work.  Then they gripe about the fact that it's so expensive.

People might find that housing is plenty affordable if only they'd stop buying so darned much of it.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: How much worse before it gets better
« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2008, 08:26:16 AM »
>And if the Great Revolution comes, you'll all save me, because even though I'm a government hack, I'm one of you.  Right?<

Sure Chris. Where do you live again, so we know where to send the sniper rescue team when the shooting starts? Tongue

charby

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Re: How much worse before it gets better
« Reply #47 on: April 03, 2008, 08:42:29 AM »
Just face it, were all going to be suffering for a few years until wages catch up with increases in food, durable goods and fuel.

Living beyond your means is a choice.  It has nothing to do with wages "catching up" to anything.

Brad

My wife and I live within our means and we both have noticed that because of the cost of fuel and other things that we don't go out for entertainment like we did last year. We used to take Sunday afternoon drives up to 150-200 miles and we haven't done that in a long time.

I have also noticed it takes a lot will power to save money each month because there is less free money each month after food, fuel and utilities.

Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

Uranus is a gas giant.

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Brad Johnson

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Re: How much worse before it gets better
« Reply #48 on: April 03, 2008, 09:44:14 AM »
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I have also noticed it takes a lot will power to save money each month because there is less free money each month after food, fuel and utilities.

Exactly.

Chances are there is another 15 or 20% savings (minimum) in that food, fuel, and utility figure, too.  There was a time when I didn't think I could pare back any more, but found out the hard way that I could.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

K Frame

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Re: How much worse before it gets better
« Reply #49 on: April 03, 2008, 09:44:35 AM »
Well, my salary just went up 5.5% a year...

As for saving each month, I do that on the front end with my 401(k).

27% of my biweekly salary goes right into the 401k.

Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.