How much worse before it gets better

[taurusowner]

In the late 80s and early 90s, we had the unique opportunity to watch a socialist, central planning system(USSR) rot from the inside out and nearly destroy a whole nation and people in the process.  That socialism and central planning economies are total failures is not really something that can be debated.  The proof is in the history.  They just don't work.  Even Red China has had to adopt much of the market economy ideas to survive.

But here in America, it seems the lesson is not truly learned.  More and more people are choosing to live in a nanny state.  They expect a big government to provide for them and shield them from failure.  They want a central planning system to coordinate their lives so they can just sit back and watch American Idol.  They want free healthcare, free education, free food, free housing, free transportation, free everything.  But we know that there is no such thing as "free".  Someone has to foot the bill.  The common idea is to soak the rich.  "They have more than we say they need, so we have the right to take it from them."  Even Republicans don't even challenge liberal-socialist ideas anymore.  The Democrat-Republican debate isn't about whether "free healthcare" works or not, it's how to implement it.  Even the GOP seems to be swallowing socialism.  And many Americans, raised on sensationalist news, Political Correctness, and a reliance on emotions over fact are marching right behind them.  According to the IRS, the top 50% of income earners, (that's half of the nation with jobs) pay 97% of the nations taxes.  Half of the country is collecting, and not doing a thing to contribute.  Yet they still vote.  Also according to the IRS, the top 25% of income earners pay 86% of all taxes and the much talked about "top 1%", actually pays 39% of taxes in this nation.  AND, that's 2% up from 2000 when President Bush took office.

More and more Americans are seeing how easy it is to collect and not contribute.  They are wondering why they should have to pay for things when they can just vote to force others to pay for them.  They are demanding more and more Nationalized and socialized programs using tax dollars to pay for them.

America is slowy turning socialist.


My question to APS is this, how much worse do you think it will get before it gets better?  What happens when that top 1%(paying nearly half of the nation's bills) decides they don't like getting robbed and decide to move?  What happens when they take their tax dollars and job creating companies elsewhere?  When a happens when all the contributors get tired of paying more than their share and leave the nation with nothing but citizens who have been grown up knowing how to do nothing but collect?  What happens when the gap between rich and poor is forced to close, giving people no reason to work hard, knowing their work will get them nothing extra, and no reason not to fail, knowing their lack of effort will not punish them in any way?


Will the rest of the world watch on their news, as bread lines stretch for miles?  As police and fire protection services fail due to lack of funding or hard working right minded people to take part?  As whole stores go empty of goods that the nation can't pay for and citizens with nothing riot, because they never learned how to take care of themselves?

At what point will this nation turn around and start expecting it's own citizens to pull their own weight, and not rely on a policy of stealing from the rich guy until he leaves?

Can self-reliance, self-respect, and hard work take a hold in America again?  Or will the pain of a collapse like the Soviet Union be the only thing strong enough to show people government cannot be relied on to give their life meaning.

[Manedwolf]

More and more Americans are seeing how easy it is to collect and not contribute.  They are wondering why they should have to pay for things when they can just vote to force others to pay for them.  They are demanding more and more Nationalized and socialized programs using tax dollars to pay for them.

Yes. Shame on me for not buying a house I couldn't afford. I could be living in a 5000sq/ft and be waiting for the federal bailout that'd let me stay in it.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I think the problem is that the voting public doesn't understand economics any more.  It's truly staggering how few people understand basic economic concepts like prices, profits, costs, incentives, and so forth. 

Ask average voters whether profits make things cheaper or more expensive, and I'll bet you get the wrong answer 98% of the time.  Ask him whether or not sellers can arbitrarily set their own prices for the things they sell, and you'll probably get the wrong answer 90% of the time.  Even the voters who have college degrees and purport to be "educated" rarely understand this stuff any better than high school dropouts.

Economics is supposed to be taught in the public schools.  You shouldn't be able to graduate without knowing this stuff.  But the teachers rarely understand it themselves, and thus can't teach it.  And that's assuming they want to teach it in the first place, which I'm beginning to doubt.  Most public teachers are eager to push their personal left-leaning political views onto their hapless students.

The people who understand economics and business are the only ones getting ahead any more.  That's what you'd expect to happen naturally.  But now, instead of the rest of the public choosing to learn from those people, the public is choosing to demonize them.

The culture has simply forgotten what money is and how it works.  There aren't many people left to teach us.  Those that are left are routinely persecuted.  So the short answer is that it isn't going to get better any time soon. 

[K Frame]

Uh, just where are these people going to move where the tax structure is so much more benevolent than here in the United States?

[mfree]

Estonia, or any one of the Eastern European countries who have gone to an extremely loose tax model because they see it works...

[seeker_two]

Estonia, or any one of the Eastern European countries who have gone to an extremely loose tax model because they see it works...

Or South America or parts of the Middle East where a little American cash can go a long way in "political influence"....

[LAK]

The "voting public", en masse, is not to blame here. We do not have a "democracy" - for good reason. The people that founded our nation established a specific form and structure of government, and for good reason.

The "voting public" is not responsible in the planning, execution, nor alteration or destruction, of a monetary system. They are not responsible for the planning of domestic trade, foreign trade, foreign policy - nor anything else that is the function of the established government. For reasons which are old hat going back thousands of years.

One way or the other it is the leadership of this country that has allowed this to come about, and the consequences, which like a few other near catastrophic episodes in our history are just over the horizon.

The "voting public" can be strung along using a variety of methods that again are simply old hat political science. They are nothing new, and the goal is to keep them busy - enough of the people enough of the time - struggling against each other, to obtain their means of sustenance, and keep themselves swimming in their vices. While they are being fleeced.

Our present circumstance and what lies directly ahead can be laid directly at the feet of a succession of U.S. Congressman, Presidents and Supreme Court Justices. It is they that have engineered this; albeit a few perhaps truly naive enough or deluded enough to actually believe that what they were doing was "right" and tagged along. Or were picked from compromized pools of people, or who allowed themselves to be gelded one way or another along the way.

It is these people that are culpable. And it is not going to change but one of three ways.

An uprising within the government; in sufficient number and position to take the helm from these people who have themselves taken this country in a progressive coup d'tat via subversion and force. So much wishful thinking.

A similar uprising within a number of the governments of the States. Only slightly less wishful thinking.

A catastrophic or series of catastrophic events which will bring everything to a grinding halt, result in the destruction of the nation as a functioning entity, and neccessitate a rebuild from the ground up. Almost now inevitable.

---------------------------------------

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[Manedwolf]

Estonia, or any one of the Eastern European countries who have gone to an extremely loose tax model because they see it works...

I thought Estonia worked because the entire country has a population barely more than New Hampshire, they're in a good trade area in proximity to the rest of the EU, and their currency is pegged to the Euro.

[K Frame]

Taxes aren't the full picture.

Anyone moving overseas right now had better choose carefully given the weak dollar.

[charby]

Taxes aren't the full picture.

Anyone moving overseas right now had better choose carefully given the weak dollar.

ditto

As much as we think it sucks here, I'd rather live her and be pissed off than somewhere living in fear of a government kicking my door in and taking me prisoner or being held hostage by local gangs.

[roo_ster]

Well, many are "pulling a Stanley."

Stanley tools was started in the mid 1800s.  Went public ~1900.

In 1999, Stanley closed its US factory, shipped its tools off to China, and put ~5000 American workers on the street.

A couple years later, it tried to dissolve the US corporation and re-incorporate on one of  those corp tax-free islands.  It failed to do so because the voting stock decided against it on the second go 'round.


The smart corps and rich folks are doing similar things, so as to avoid paying US taxes and give the finger to the US gov't.

IMO, such safety valves ought to exist, to shame the taxers & spenders into reducing the rates here in the USA.

[Brad Johnson]

I think the problem is that the voting public doesn't understand economics any more.  It's truly staggering how few people understand basic and concepts like prices, profits, costs, incentives, and so forth.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a WINNA!!

Ask ten people the difference between net and gross.  Five bucks says nine of them won't know.

Brad

[seeker_two]

Well, many are "pulling a Stanley."

Stanley tools was started in the mid 1800s.  Went public ~1900.

In 1999, Stanley closed its US factory, shipped its tools off to China, and put ~5000 American workers on the street.

A couple years later, it tried to dissolve the US corporation and re-incorporate on one of  those corp tax-free islands.  It failed to do so because the voting stock decided against it on the second go 'round.


The smart corps and rich folks are doing similar things, so as to avoid paying US taxes and give the finger to the US gov't.

IMO, such safety valves ought to exist, to shame the taxers & spenders into reducing the rates here in the USA.

Somebody's been listening to Ed Wallace.....

[charby]

Will the rest of the world watch on their news, as bread lines stretch for miles?  As police and fire protection services fail due to lack of funding or hard working right minded people to take part?  As whole stores go empty of goods that the nation can't pay for and citizens with nothing riot, because they never learned how to take care of themselves?

At what point will this nation turn around and start expecting it's own citizens to pull their own weight, and not rely on a policy of stealing from the rich guy until he leaves?

Can self-reliance, self-respect, and hard work take a hold in America again?  Or will the pain of a collapse like the Soviet Union be the only thing strong enough to show people government cannot be relied on to give their life meaning.

I'm starting to wonder with all the hub bub with the federal reserve if they are trying to fight off ecomonic depression. We are/have experiencing some same signs of what occured before the 1930's depression.

[Manedwolf]

Will the rest of the world watch on their news, as bread lines stretch for miles?  As police and fire protection services fail due to lack of funding or hard working right minded people to take part?  As whole stores go empty of goods that the nation can't pay for and citizens with nothing riot, because they never learned how to take care of themselves?

At what point will this nation turn around and start expecting it's own citizens to pull their own weight, and not rely on a policy of stealing from the rich guy until he leaves?

Can self-reliance, self-respect, and hard work take a hold in America again?  Or will the pain of a collapse like the Soviet Union be the only thing strong enough to show people government cannot be relied on to give their life meaning.

I'm starting to wonder with all the hub bub with the federal reserve if they are trying to fight off ecomonic depression. We are/have experiencing some same signs of what occured before the 1930's depression.

Can't happen that way. There was no way to stop the sell-offs or runs on banks then. Now, the "circuit breakers" will halt trading.

[charby]

Will the rest of the world watch on their news, as bread lines stretch for miles?  As police and fire protection services fail due to lack of funding or hard working right minded people to take part?  As whole stores go empty of goods that the nation can't pay for and citizens with nothing riot, because they never learned how to take care of themselves?

At what point will this nation turn around and start expecting it's own citizens to pull their own weight, and not rely on a policy of stealing from the rich guy until he leaves?

Can self-reliance, self-respect, and hard work take a hold in America again?  Or will the pain of a collapse like the Soviet Union be the only thing strong enough to show people government cannot be relied on to give their life meaning.

I'm starting to wonder with all the hub bub with the federal reserve if they are trying to fight off economic depression. We are/have experiencing some same signs of what occurred before the 1930's depression.

Can't happen that way. There was no way to stop the sell-offs or runs on banks then. Now, the "circuit breakers" will halt trading.

Doesn't have to start with a single day massive market sell off i.e. crash. A run on banks? People don't have savings accounts like they used to.

Just look at how very extended people are on easy credit and how many people's retirement accounts/pensions are based on stock options.

[elrod]

The non-working majority have finally realized that by voting for the liberals, they can make a pretty good living off the taxes of the hard-working minority. IMHO, it will take a revolt of sorts to intitate change. If nothing happens, the economy implodes inward upon itself.

[RocketMan]

In an earlier thread I stated my opinion that we would see a deep recession with 1 in 10 out of work.  I have since revised my opinion downward.  I think we're pretty much toast.  If we get away with just a depression, we'll be lucky.

The breadth and depth of this country's financial problems is not really being reported over here.  This is due, I suspect, to an overall lack of quality in our media, not some grand conspiracy.
The UK financial news outlets are doing a much better job in detailing what is happening here (and in Europe, as well), much to their credit.  Perhaps their audiences don't go into that "eyes glazing over" mode so quickly, so they can report in depth on topics that would bore an American readership to tears.
 

[Manedwolf]

In an earlier thread I stated my opinion that we would see a deep recession with 1 in 10 out of work.  I have since revised my opinion downward.  I think we're pretty much toast.  If we get away with just a depression, we'll be lucky.

What do you base that on, being that the dollar just bounced up today and gold dropped back below 900/oz in soft corrections?

[LAK]

The dollar is being propped up. They can not do that too many times for too long.

Look for the heaviest holders of the dollar to quietly start divesting themselves of what is going to be worth less than toilet paper. These people will try and make sure they have most of their money in other things before the dollar races for the seabed.

Perhaps the sudden stop of M3 data a awhile back and now the ... um ... "increased oversight" of the "Fed" is starting to ring some faint bell with some of the more hard of hearing.

-----------------------------

http://searchronpaul.com
http://ussliberty.org/oldindex.html
http://www.gtr5.com
http://ssunitedstates.com

[seeker_two]

The dollar is being propped up. They can not do that too many times for too long.

Look for the heaviest holders of the dollar to quietly start divesting themselves of what is going to be worth less than toilet paper. These people will try and make sure they have most of their money in other things before the dollar races for the seabed.

Perhaps the sudden stop of M3 data a awhile back and now the ... um ... "increased oversight" of the "Fed" is starting to ring some faint bell with some of the more hard of hearing.

-----------------------------

http://searchronpaul.com
http://ussliberty.org/oldindex.html
http://www.gtr5.com
http://ssunitedstates.com

I've always wondered what would happen to our "full faith & credit" dollar if the rest of the world lost faith in our credit....

[The Annoyed Man]

While this economic debate is interesting, and a good theory for a portion fo the country, there's a large portion fo our population that lives on "middle class" income or below.  A good portion of these are the people we refer to around the courthouse as "entitlements".  These are the people that believe they are entitled to certain things for no other reason than they exist.  As a breathing human being, they are entitled to food stamps and reduced cost rent.  They are entitled to sell grass or meth to pay for the big flat panel tv and fancy car, and then entitled to a lawyer when they get caught, and entitled to probation when they are convicted.  They are entitled to a second, third, and fourth chance on probation before being sent to prison.  In prison, they are entitled to cable television, free mail, and educational opportunities.  When they get out, they are entitled to public assistance to helpthem get "back on their feet."  If they smoke weed, they are entitled to disability because they are chemically dependent.  I cannot begin to tell you how frustrating it is to drive in to work in my 1996 Dodge Intrepid and take the bench wearing dress clothes bought at Kohl's (a lower priced department store), only to find the first case involved parents whose children are in foster care because of various issues, and see those people drive up in a Cadillac Escalade, get out wearing Armani, Boss, etc., and listen to them complain about how the system is keeping them down.  Meanwhile, I'm still paying off my student loans, living in a house that truly didn't cost too much more than teh fancy car they drove in, and wondering how it is that I made the right choices.

I don't mind so much the government helping those truly in need, but when I cannot put another criminal in lock-up because we don't have it in the budget, and Hillary and Obama are talking about bailing out people who bought $250,000 homes on a $25,000 a year income, it steams me.

To answer the original question, I fear that Ayn Rand's "Anthem" may be more truth than I would have once believed, especially if this trend in parens patria continues.

[roo_ster]

In an earlier thread I stated my opinion that we would see a deep recession with 1 in 10 out of work.  I have since revised my opinion downward.  I think we're pretty much toast.  If we get away with just a depression, we'll be lucky.

The breadth and depth of this country's financial problems is not really being reported over here.  This is due, I suspect, to an overall lack of quality in our media, not some grand conspiracy.
The UK financial news outlets are doing a much better job in detailing what is happening here (and in Europe, as well), much to their credit.  Perhaps their audiences don't go into that "eyes glazing over" mode so quickly, so they can report in depth on topics that would bore an American readership to tears.

That is interesting observation on UK financial news. 

But, should we get our financial news from the innumerate?

Monday, March 31, 2008
Media Fish in a Barrel
OK, so it's British media writing about wicked America, so the fish are particularly fat and slow, but still ...

The Independent informs us we're flushed down the great toilet. The article is titled "USA 2008: The Great Depression"

It is illustrated with this photo:



Which bears the caption "Disadvantaged Americans queue for aid in New York".

A little poking around on the Getty archive Web site, and I found an identical photo here.

It has this caption:


    New York Mayor Hands Out Coats To The Poor

    NEW YORK - NOVEMBER 30: People wait on line to receive donated coats at the kickoff of the 17th annual New York Cares Coat Drive a the Bowery Mission November 30, 2005 in New York City. Bloomberg helped give out coats to residents of the Mission and the coat drive hopes to collect and distribute 80,000 coats to needy New Yorkers by New Years. (Photo by Mario Tama/Getty Images)


Emphasis added by me. Inability to tell "5" from "8" added by the Independent.

UPDATE: And here's a site that claims to be "drilling beneath the headlines" and misses this error entirely in its approving link to the Independent -- while illustrating its own story with a famous photograph from the 1930s -- not noting it as such.

[Manedwolf]

Let's retaliate by showing a picture of some soccer hooligans smashing a park and burning cars, and say it's what all of the UK is like every day.

I swear, most of the UK media is tabloids.

[Cromlech]

The Tabloids here are al biased and crappy in their own little ways.