Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: AZRedhawk44 on January 11, 2011, 08:12:19 PM
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From http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Gun
But, you know, if I could say something right now, that something is drastically wrong with what's going on in our United States right now. And when an individual is turned down to get into the military and then can be -- is able to go out and buy a .9-millimeter Glock pistol, and he had one of the -- or his clips were the extended clips that were limited to law enforcement only, and, you know, that -- or somebody has to put a stop to that.
* Bill Badger, U.S. Army Colonel (retired) who helped capture Jared Lee Loughner during the 2011 Tucson shooting — Wolf Blitzer. "Alleged Arizona Gunman in Court", The Situation Room, CNN, January 9, 2011. URL accessed on 2011-01-11.
Wash out of MEPS or other military enlistment programs, for anything other than PHYSICAL health reasons... it goes on your NICS file.
Doesn't affect flat feet or overweight folks, or anyone with sub-par vision.
What does APS think of it?
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The Col is an idiot.
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In short: no.
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What does APS think of it?
As has been discussed here many times, it's not smart to go on tv or radio, particularly not regarding a highly current and controversial subject, without substantial preparation and coaching. Perhaps there was an assumption on his part that the guy had been clearly identified by MEPS as a danger to himself or others? Perhaps that was the case? I don't know, but he may have known or inferred more than he stated, a very, very common mistake in people who aren't experienced at presenting stuff via mass-media to a very broad audience.
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It's pointless to discuss it without knowing why he was denied an enlistment. However, unless the denial involved abhorrent behavior that was actually witnessed by recruiters/processing station personnel, any sort of referral to law enforcement would be inappropriate.
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The Col is an idiot.
That
and this
In short: no.
You guys used my answers already.
bob
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A Dr. prescribed drug my mother was taking while pregnant with me, caused me to be born without my right breast mussel and the chicken pox when I was 5 caused me to be deaf in my left ear. So, that would make me unable to serve in the military. This clown thinks that I should not be able to protect myself!!! He's a moron.
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I doubt that he's a moron... He just didn't completely flesh out the thought. I'm guessing that what he actually meant was "If the military thinks that you're too damn crazy to be an 11-Bang-Bang, society sure as hell shouldn't trust you with a boomstick."
Works for me.
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Wash out of MEPS or other military enlistment programs, for anything other than PHYSICAL health reasons... it goes on your NICS file.
That might be a bit much, but I wouldn't object if they forwarded any information obtained that clearly identifies a disqualifying 4473 question 12 answer. There is already a need for a correction/update process for NICS information, so implementation of such a process should be a precondition for storing any of the information that can change.
(12e. "Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana, or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?" would have been the disqualifier in this case, assuming the reasons given for his rejection were accurate. Given that addiction status can change without any documentable process, I'd say this disqualifier should be automatically time limited at around 5 years overall, or 9 consecutive months of clean screenings.)
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I doubt that he's a moron... He just didn't completely flesh out the thought. I'm guessing that what he actually meant was "If the military thinks that you're too damn crazy to be an 11-Bang-Bang, society sure as hell shouldn't trust you with a boomstick."
Um. Hell to the no. Pretty sure taking any medication can be disqualifying. You really thinking being SSRI-dependent should disqualify someone from exercising his 2A rights?
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The Laughner dude was a serious pothead. That's what disqualified him from enlisting.
Say what you will about current drug and gun laws, had those laws actually been enforced, he wouldn't have been able to buy that Glock.
"Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana, depressants, stimulants, narcotics..."
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Um. Hell to the no. Pretty sure taking any medication can be disqualifying. You really thinking being SSRI-dependent should disqualify someone from exercising his 2A rights?
The word "addiction" on the 4473 is there for a reason. Addiction and dependence are recognized as distinct conditions, hence the distinct lack of medical references to Plavix or insulin addicts, despite their withdrawal symptoms being somewhat more dramatic than, say, nicotine withdrawal.
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I'll say it again.
Too.
Damn.
Crazy.
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I'll say it again.
Too.
Damn.
Crazy.
That would be 12f, and you only have to answer it once. :P
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I doubt that he's a moron... He just didn't completely flesh out the thought. I'm guessing that what he actually meant was "If the military thinks that you're too damn crazy to be an 11-Bang-Bang, society sure as hell shouldn't trust you with a boomstick."
Works for me.
This doesn't work for me. There are plenty of reasons to not get accepted for enlistment. There should only be a few reasons to not be able to buy a gun.
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So... Does "too damn crazy to join the military" carry any weight?
And then there was one guy in my basic training company who had a very cool room temp IQ, and I honestly wouldn't mind if he got tagged for a no-NICS... And no, he didn't make it through basic... Not only dumb, but paranoid about it...
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The word "addiction" on the 4473 is there for a reason. Addiction and dependence are recognized as distinct conditions, hence the distinct lack of medical references to Plavix or insulin addicts, despite their withdrawal symptoms being somewhat more dramatic than, say, nicotine withdrawal.
Disqualifying from military service that is. My understanding is that it's not an addiction issue at all, but an adaptability and durability issue. Am I not correct on this? It's been about seven years since I last seriously combed through enlistment information.
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I'll say it again.
Too.
Damn.
Crazy.
Being too crazy to join the military is a pretty low threshold of crazy, and apparently getting lower all the time.
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Um. Hell to the no. Pretty sure taking any medication can be disqualifying. You really thinking being SSRI-dependent should disqualify someone from exercising his 2A rights?
Any medication? What about folks on insulin? People on pain management meds.? Or folks on welbutrion and such. I wasn't aware being on some form of legally prescribed med would forfeit your 2A right.
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Being too crazy to join the military is a pretty low threshold of crazy, and apparently getting lower all the time.
What about being crazy enough to join the military? ;/
Asthma and a high lottery number kept me from going to VN.
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It takes a pretty severe degree of "too damn crazy" to get told "Uh... Maybe you should consider work down at the nut factory..."
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What does APS think of it?
I think that's one retired colonel who would never have made general, and who seriously needs a course in remedial English.
What did he say, anyway? It certainly didn't make any sense.
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The one guy who I knew who was washed out without effort on his part (the really dumb guy...) was REALLY dumb, and REALLY weird. The DIs talked to us, and basically said that they had no idea how he'd gotten past the recruiters, etc., and that someone was probably going to be in some serious trouble somewhere along the line.
And the people who washed out through their own effort... Well, it takes WORK to flunk out of the Army...
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We had one clown in boot that "washed out", sort of. Actually they came in with 6 big MAAs and the CC put us on the line. The big guys walked up behind him and with out warning tackled him and placed him in some serious retraints. He was pretty much foaming at the mouth as they drug him out.
We'd been there about a week when this happened.
The story was that he had killed some poor slob, buried the body and stolen his ID and used it to enlist.
So yeah that guy probably shouldn't be able to own a gun.
As for other reasons for getting washed out, unless it is felony level or severe mental issues then we probably don't need another reason to deny people the right to self defense.
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Bogie, I'm pretty sure MEPS level washouts were specifically mentioned. It is incredibly easy to wash out at MEPS; they are working pretty hard to limit liability these days.
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Bogie, I'm pretty sure MEPS level washouts were specifically mentioned. It is incredibly easy to wash out at MEPS; they are working pretty hard to limit liability these days.
"You can't do a duckwalk, no gun for you!"
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Col Badger is an idiot, with a nominal grasp on the English language to boot.
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If they want to restrict gun ownership for a particular reason, then state the reasons up front. Don't tie it to requirements of some of other relatively unrelated organization. In general, I think that just allows the politicians to dodge the issue and let the military play politics with gun control.
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Being too crazy to join the military is a pretty low threshold of crazy, and apparently getting lower all the time.
I wouldn't put much stock in somebody being called too coo-koo for the military.
Richard Fenyman was turned away from the Army after his draft number got called near the end of WWII. They thought he was nuts.
Good thing that guy never got his hands on anything dangerous, eh? :)
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So, in a situation where someone is too terminally weird for the military (or fakes being terminally weird...), it's just fine for them to go out and arm up on their own?
I'm not talkin' about most of the inhabitants of the Group W bench...
I mean, where do you draw the line?
Some guy loses it in basic, assaults a DI, whatever, and gets the boot - should he be treated differently than someone who gets a conviction in civilian life?
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Thinking too - what if you get told to go get a psych eval, or you're not gonna go back to school... Or tell you what, the guys at HR are feelin' really nervous about since you shaved your eyebrows in the cafeteria, so go get yourself a checkup from the neck up, and come back after you get your balance and alignment fixed...
Washing out of basic for a physical reason - I have no prob with that... But if someone gets selected for exit because the military's shrinks think that he/she is too damn weird, well...
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You are only too crazy if you are adjudicated mentally incompetent in a court. I really don't want to make it any easier to declare someone crazy.
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i just want a .9mm handgun, talk about some cheap reloading. :angel:
or. could it be, the ultimate high velocity handgun firing a 2.5 grain HP at 5000+fps! [tinfoil]
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You are only too crazy if you are adjudicated mentally incompetent in a court. I really don't want to make it any easier to declare someone crazy.
Hell, I'd like to see stricter controls placed on that adjucation, too. Like an immediate appeals process.
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Hell, I'd like to see stricter controls placed on that adjucation, too. Like an immediate appeals process.
Yeah, just because no one else knows your best friend Harvey doesn't mean you are crazy. =)
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Hell, I'd like to see stricter controls placed on that adjucation, too. Like an immediate appeals process.
maybe its different some places but i've found the protections pretty good in va. its quite hard to get someone "certified" and there is a process for appeal and review
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maybe its different some places but i've found the protections pretty good in va. its quite hard to get someone "certified" and there is a process for appeal and review
So your appeal went well?????? =D
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There exist procedures for dealing with a person, not just military washouts but anyone, who is such a danger to herself or others that she should not be allowed to own a gun. It's called involuntary commitment to a mental institution.
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i never liked the thought of locking someone up because they "might" hurt someone. buy then i don't like the thought of them hurting someone either. so. once again, 2 to COM, 1 to the head. :angel: preferably before they manage to get a shot fired, etc.. =|
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Thinking too - what if you get told to go get a psych eval, or you're not gonna go back to school... Or tell you what, the guys at HR are feelin' really nervous about since you shaved your eyebrows in the cafeteria, so go get yourself a checkup from the neck up, and come back after you get your balance and alignment fixed...
Think about that for a second.
OK.
Now think about someone like your ex-spouse/SO being the one in HR/Admissions when they were pissed off about you and about ready to end the marriage/relationship.
Now think about that person being in a position to demand that you get a psych eval. Do you REALLY want a failure to comply or failure to have a hard-core libtard head shrinker give you a thumbs-up to go back to work/school to mean that you've lost 2A rights for LIFE?
There exist procedures for dealing with a person, not just military washouts but anyone, who is such a danger to herself or others that she should not be allowed to own a gun. It's called involuntary commitment to a mental institution.
This. And only this should cause one to lose 2A rights over your mental health state.
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Further to my last post. My sister is a flaming lib and a professor in the Psych department at U Washington. She is, according to my wife, absolutly convinced that I have Aspergers. Sis has never said anything to me about it, but was trying to convince my wife that there was something "wrong" with me. I really don't think that's correct (or at least not that). But she's the "expert".
Were it possible I have little doubt that she try to find some way to get me forced into a psych eval if not some sort of treatment. And refusal would be little different that having HR tell me to do the same thing. Why should I stand to lose my 2A rights on the say so of one person like that?
I fully agree that something should have been done to get Laughner's mental illness documented and treated. And that such probably should be a 2A disqualifier, at least for some period of time. But that MUST include due process and opportunity to appeal as otherwise it is far too ripe for abuse.
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There exist procedures for dealing with a person, not just military washouts but anyone, who is such a danger to herself or others that she should not be allowed to own a gun. It's called involuntary commitment to a mental institution.
This concept.
Yes, there are going to be people who don't get caught. Not unlike the criminal justice system, using a jury, fair trials, etc. means some murderers walk free.
But such is life.
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What's wrong with Asperger's?
(currently learning everything I can about precision machine shop stuff... - it's fun...)
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Ummm...does Fort Hood or the UTexas tower ring any bells? How about Dallas and a book repository?
I'm sure the Col. just meant that the guy had a long history of being nuts and testing positive for drugs. That, and he's been through a lot of emotional trauma himself. I'd give him a pass.
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What's wrong with Asperger's?
(currently learning everything I can about precision machine shop stuff... - it's fun...)
Short answer: Nothing, insofar as guns and 2A rights should be concerned.
Long answer: It's part of the Autism Spectrum of disorders. Usually characterized, in part, by the person having impared ability to relate to and understand other people, especially being able to recognize differences in body language, tone of voice, and other non-verbal cues.
In terms of guns and the ability to be responsible with them, and not going crazy like the guy in Tucson, there's absolutely no connection to Aspergers. But there's plenty of people like my sister that would gladly use any tool possible to restrict access to guns to as many people as possible regardless of whether it is an appropriate tool or not.
That I'm pretty sure I don't have it makes little differnece to her. What I would admit to having though is Nerdbergers (aka The Knack).
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Long answer: It's part of the Autism Spectrum of disorders. Usually characterized, in part, by the person having impared ability to relate to and understand other people, especially being able to recognize differences in body language, tone of voice, and other non-verbal cues.
What do they call it when you pick up on all those cues just fine, but don't give a damn because so few people can pick up on your not-at-all-subtle cues that they should STFU and go away?
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What do they call it when you pick up on all those cues just fine, but don't give a damn because so few people can pick up on your not-at-all-subtle cues that they should STFU and go away?
Kentucky conservative? :lol:
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What do they call it when you pick up on all those cues just fine, but don't give a damn because so few people can pick up on your not-at-all-subtle cues that they should STFU and go away?
RCS: Rooster Cogburn Syndrome :P
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I, for one, won't fault the Colonel: he did after all go to the sound of the guns. He may have disagreeable ideas about gun rights, but I sense he's not much of a Gunny.
TC