Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Nick1911 on February 05, 2013, 05:19:01 PM
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This is a stupid question, but did the sandy hook shooter actually use an AR-15 pattern rifle?
The news sure makes it sounds like he did, but several people have told me that's not the case, that there were only 4 handguns in the school. Googling doesn't turn up anything conclusive.
Anyone got a straight answer on this with evidence to back it up?
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Everything I've heard indicates the rifle was left behind in his vehical.
So, yes, he possessed one at the time of the crime, but he did not use it it, or even have it on his person at the time of the crime.
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Nearly everything *I'VE* read states that he DID use the AR, and it was an Izhmash shotgun in the car. CT State Police put out a press release on 1/18 (a couple of weeks ago) stating Lanza carried two handguns and a Bushmaster into the school, and there was a semi-auto shotgun that somewhat resembled an AR recovered from the trunk of the car. The coroner is on record saying that the kids' wounds were ALL from the .223 rounds fired from the Bushmaster.
The video which has been making the rounds lately dates from DECEMBER 15TH, the day after Sandy Hook - back before the facts were out, and during the mad frenzy to be first with any kind of story, even if it turned out to be wrong.
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He used the Bushmaster AR-15 to kill everyone at the school. He used one of the TWO (not four) handguns to murder his mother, and then to commit suicide as the police arrived at the school.
The fourth weapon, the one found in the trunk of the car, as a shotgun.
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???
This whole mess is so confusing.
ok, I stand corrected... Sorta... Do we have links to credible sources.
Are there credible sources?
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The Sandy hook shooting has more holes in, then Swiss cheese. I'm not sure what to believe. :facepalm:
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CT DSP report: http://www.ct.gov/despp/cwp/view.asp?A=4226&Q=517284
And like I said, the only reports I'm seeing stating anything other than that the AR was the weapon used for the murders are the reports based on month-old rush-to-get-the-story-out crap, and [tinfoil] brigade stuff.
There are a few press releases on the CT DSP page (http://www.ct.gov/despp/cwp/browse.asp?a=4226&bc=0&c=27627), and it seems as though most news agencies have their stories straight now. Wish they could be "first with the FACTS", rather than "first with ANY story, even if it's 100% completely incorrect at first," but if they were competent, they'd have real jobs, right?
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Video of the medical examiner:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE0OT5od9DA#t=4m33
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???
This whole mess is so confusing.
ok, I stand corrected... Sorta... Do we have links to credible sources.
Are there credible sources?
Yes. ALL the sources, EXCEPT the one flawed NBC story have the AR used in the shooting. The "confusion" is due to that one early story combined with Internet commandos misidentifying the shotgun in the trunk as the rifle.
Hawkmoon is correct.
He brought the rifle and (one or more) handguns into the school, used the rifle primarily until it jammed, then offed himself with handgun.
Total rifle round count was 79, if recent reports are accurate, though he went through more than the expected number of magazines (ie he dropped more than two)
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Yes. ALL the sources, EXCEPT the one flawed NBC story have the AR used in the shooting. The "confusion" is due to that one early story combined with Internet commandos misidentifying the shotgun in the trunk as the rifle.
Hawkmoon is correct.
He brought the rifle and (one or more) handguns into the school, used the rifle primarily until it jammed, then offed himself with handgun.
Total rifle round count was 79, if recent reports are accurate, though he went through more than the expected number of magazines (ie he dropped more than two)
It was a reasonable question given the hype and misinformation surronding the whole event and the events stemming from it.
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Total rifle round count was 79, if recent reports are accurate, though he went through more than the expected number of magazines (ie he dropped more than two)
The State Police theorize that he was an avid game player, and in the games he played you do better doing "tactical" reloads when transitioning between active scenarios. They reported that, although he was carrying all 30-round magazines, he didn't fire more than 15 out of any of them. They figure he was just "fighting as he trained." (Sorry.)
I discussed this with a friend who plays a lot of combat games, and he confirmed that's the way most of the "old hands" play.
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It was a reasonable question given the hype and misinformation surrounding the whole event and the events stemming from it.
I think so. I think someone else here asked the same question a while ago.
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What would account for the 100% kill rate? Usually, there are at least some wounded(in addition to the killed) in shooting sprees.
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What would account for the 100% kill rate? Usually, there are at least some wounded(in addition to the killed) in shooting sprees.
The reports I have seen generally say that there were 2 wounded survivors.
But, I think the fatality rate was so high because he was using a rifle at across-the-room range.
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What would account for the 100% kill rate? Usually, there are at least some wounded(in addition to the killed) in shooting sprees.
I'd love to see a detailed investigation. My theory is he was on his own 20 minutes. No reason that in suburbia it takes 20 minutes for a cop to get anywhere, so for a goodly portion of that time someone was sitting outside the school either a beat cop waiting for instruction or a special cop getting dressed in special cop clothes. So, 20 minutes. Then add time for them to secure the scene for ems to go in there. I'm going to guess that some kids bled to death that could have been saved with immediate action. Especially if an SRO or armed teacher shot the twit and started lifesaving aid immediately. How many teachers have any clue on treating GSWs?
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It was a reasonable question given the hype and misinformation surronding the whole event and the events stemming from it.
I know, I didn't mean any negative tone. Sorry.
What would account for the 100% kill rate? Usually, there are at least some wounded(in addition to the killed) in shooting sprees.
The reports I have seen generally say that there were 2 wounded survivors.
But, I think the fatality rate was so high because he was using a rifle at across-the-room range.
What would also account for the high fraction is biological.
The following is my (given reasonable experience in studying terminal ballistics literature) thoughts on the matter.
1. The adults were probably shot multiple times at close range, and were among the first to be shot, and thus the most time to bleed out.
2. If some of the reports are to believed, he was using "green" bullets, which, if that is true, substantially increase the temporary (elastic) wound cavity relative to ball rounds, and thus cause more damage, especially in cases where significant penetration isn't "needed"
And 3, the most unfortunate, is that the bulk of the victims were small children.
(Apologies for the detail here, I know its horrifying, and it is not my intention to dwell on that, but rather to explain, so don't read if it will bother you)
The physical size of the victims in this case leads, in my opinion, directly to the high degree of lethality. As the size of the damaged region from a bullet is the same in biological material (small people have the same composition as large people), a given size damaged region can be substantially more lethal on a smaller person--there is a greater likelihood that the temporary wound cavity will intersect with major vessels and/or highly vascular organs (liver, kidney, etc). Additionally, as the damaged area is larger in proportion, and the overall blood supply volume is lower, a given loss rate will result in a much quicker fatal blood loss, even without accounting for higher blood pressure and heart rate associated with the type of victims here.
Given that, and the significant (from a biological standpoint) amount of time before medical treatment could possibly be applied (all the adults were killed, and the first responders had an active shooter to deal with, and there were far more victims than responders for the medically significant first 10-20 minutes), the resulting fatality rate is sadly, predictable.
If low penetration ammunition were in fact used, the greater rate of energy deposition per unit depth would result in even worse damage in the case of these victims, due to lower overall depth to the vital areas.
Again, I am extremely sorry for describing this horrifying event in such terms, it is not my intention to disgust or sadden.
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I'd love to see a detailed investigation. My theory is he was on his own 20 minutes. No reason that in suburbia it takes 20 minutes for a cop to get anywhere, so for a goodly portion of that time someone was sitting outside the school either a beat cop waiting for instruction or a special cop getting dressed in special cop clothes. So, 20 minutes. Then add time for them to secure the scene for ems to go in there. I'm going to guess that some kids bled to death that could have been saved with immediate action. Especially if an SRO or armed teacher shot the twit and started lifesaving aid immediately. How many teachers have any clue on treating GSWs?
I don't think thats a bad theory. We heard early reports he was shooting up the school for 20-30 minutes. Now, how much of that time did police know he was shooting? when was the inital call made?
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I'd love to see a detailed investigation. My theory is he was on his own 20 minutes. No reason that in suburbia it takes 20 minutes for a cop to get anywhere, so for a goodly portion of that time someone was sitting outside the school either a beat cop waiting for instruction or a special cop getting dressed in special cop clothes. So, 20 minutes. Then add time for them to secure the scene for ems to go in there. I'm going to guess that some kids bled to death that could have been saved with immediate action. Especially if an SRO or armed teacher shot the twit and started lifesaving aid immediately. How many teachers have any clue on treating GSWs?
I highly doubt any cop was waiting outside of the school. Active shooter doctrine is to enter structure ASAP even alone and try to engage the shooter ASAP.
20 minutes goes by DAMN fast when you are the responder. Someone had to call 911, how long was the shooter actively shooting before that call was able to be made? Then 911 Dispatch has to communicate with the caller, find out what is going on (and understandably the caller in the situation is likely to be completely hysterical and unintelligable, I haven't listened to any 911 tapes from this one) and dispatch emergency responders. Then the cops respond to the 911 dispatch, which also might take some time considering traffic and how far away they are from the school.
Rolling up on the school you unlock your rifle from the rack and throw your plate carrier on and grab your active shooter bag or chest rig if you had the foresight to have one and move up to the school. Now to get in. Remember that modern schools lock their exterior doors except for the main entrance to try to prevent unauthorized persons entering the building, and IIRC Sandy Hook had the main entrance locked and someone letting people in, which is where the shooter made his entrance. So depending on where the first officers made their entrance, they could have had to force entry, which takes time, and more time if you don't practice such skills on a frequent basis.
Then it's a matter of clearing a school, which is a HUGE place, which screaming kids and staff and trying to find and neutralize the shooter. The reports I'm hearing say approx 15 mins elapsed between the time the 911 call was placed and the shooter selfDarwinated after facing the police which I don't see how that time could be really reduced in such a situation.
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I can't find the cite, but I'd read one report some police stated the gunfire sounded so loud and was echoing, that they thought it was outside, and they spent several minutes looking for where it came from before they entered the school. Had they understood it was inside, they'd have gone in immediately.
Of course, like all the other "reports", no idea if that's accurate or not. =|
Seems to me though that if there's lots of shooting going on OUTSIDE a school, the best tactic would be to get INSIDE the school, and set up the defensive perimeter for the kids (and get some cover for yourself too). Although it's always easy to MMQB these things.
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Again, I am extremely sorry for describing this horrifying event in such terms, it is not my intention to disgust or sadden.
No need to apologize. We are having a cool, logical, reasoned discussion in an attempt to UNDERSTAND what happened... it not about cheap gore thrill.
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I can't find the cite, but I'd read one report some police stated the gunfire sounded so loud and was echoing, that they thought it was outside,
I read something along those lines in an interview the first police on the scene did recently with the New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/29/nyregion/horrors-of-newtown-shooting-scene-are-slow-to-fade.html?pagewanted=all
bob
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I know, I didn't mean any negative tone. Sorry.
What would also account for the high fraction is biological.
The following is my (given reasonable experience in studying terminal ballistics literature) thoughts on the matter.
1. The adults were probably shot multiple times at close range, and were among the first to be shot, and thus the most time to bleed out.
2. If some of the reports are to believed, he was using "green" bullets, which, if that is true, substantially increase the temporary (elastic) wound cavity relative to ball rounds, and thus cause more damage, especially in cases where significant penetration isn't "needed"
And 3, the most unfortunate, is that the bulk of the victims were small children.
(Apologies for the detail here, I know its horrifying, and it is not my intention to dwell on that, but rather to explain, so don't read if it will bother you)
The physical size of the victims in this case leads, in my opinion, directly to the high degree of lethality. As the size of the damaged region from a bullet is the same in biological material (small people have the same composition as large people), a given size damaged region can be substantially more lethal on a smaller person--there is a greater likelihood that the temporary wound cavity will intersect with major vessels and/or highly vascular organs (liver, kidney, etc). Additionally, as the damaged area is larger in proportion, and the overall blood supply volume is lower, a given loss rate will result in a much quicker fatal blood loss, even without accounting for higher blood pressure and heart rate associated with the type of victims here.
Given that, and the significant (from a biological standpoint) amount of time before medical treatment could possibly be applied (all the adults were killed, and the first responders had an active shooter to deal with, and there were far more victims than responders for the medically significant first 10-20 minutes), the resulting fatality rate is sadly, predictable.
If low penetration ammunition were in fact used, the greater rate of energy deposition per unit depth would result in even worse damage in the case of these victims, due to lower overall depth to the vital areas.
Again, I am extremely sorry for describing this horrifying event in such terms, it is not my intention to disgust or sadden.
No offense taken.
My thoughts were similar, although without the medical knowledge, I wasn't sure, but it makes sense.
Perhaps, pushing for teachers/school staff to have more EMT type training, especially training specific to the age of the children at the school, including training for trama wounds, wouldn't be a bad idea.
That's useful for more then just violent attack by an outsider and could have potentially made a much bigger diffrence in this scenerio.
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From the NYT article linked above.
Most of the bodies were found in the classroom next door, where, Detective Frank recalled, “the teacher had them huddled up like a mother hen — simple as that, in a corner.”
I believe this type of thinking may have added to the number of fatalities. With the capability of the 5.56 to cause through and through wounds on smaller bodies, some of the fatalities with multiple GSWs may have been caused by the close proximity to each other as they were in the corner. IMO, in this case, running and screaming may have been a better course of action.
bob
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Seems to me though that if there's lots of shooting going on OUTSIDE a school, the best tactic would be to get INSIDE the school, and set up the defensive perimeter for the kids (and get some cover for yourself too). Although it's always easy to MMQB these things.
No, schools are generally too large to secure with the first few responding officers. Best thing to do is actively search for the shooter and neutralize him ASAP.
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No, schools are generally too large to secure with the first few responding officers. Best thing to do is actively search for the shooter and neutralize him ASAP.
Kobayashi Maru
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No, schools are generally too large to secure with the first few responding officers. Best thing to do is actively search for the shooter and neutralize him ASAP.
A couple of the folks in my bicycle club are deputies for the County Sheriff. They said that after Columbine, doctrine has generally changed such that the first police responders enter the building immediately and start searching for the shooter, even if the first to arrive enters the building solo. They said this is how they currently train.
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A couple of the folks in my bicycle club are deputies for the County Sheriff. They said that after Columbine, doctrine has generally changed such that the first police responders enter the building immediately and start searching for the shooter, even if the first to arrive enters the building solo. They said this is how they currently train.
Thats what I said in my first post. You dont set up a perimeter, wait in cover, etc. You actively hunt the shooter.
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I highly doubt any cop was waiting outside of the school. Active shooter doctrine is to enter structure ASAP even alone and try to engage the shooter ASAP.
20 minutes goes by DAMN fast when you are the responder. Someone had to call 911, how long was the shooter actively shooting before that call was able to be made? Then 911 Dispatch has to communicate with the caller, find out what is going on (and understandably the caller in the situation is likely to be completely hysterical and unintelligable, I haven't listened to any 911 tapes from this one) and dispatch emergency responders. Then the cops respond to the 911 dispatch, which also might take some time considering traffic and how far away they are from the school.
Rolling up on the school you unlock your rifle from the rack and throw your plate carrier on and grab your active shooter bag or chest rig if you had the foresight to have one and move up to the school. Now to get in. Remember that modern schools lock their exterior doors except for the main entrance to try to prevent unauthorized persons entering the building, and IIRC Sandy Hook had the main entrance locked and someone letting people in, which is where the shooter made his entrance. So depending on where the first officers made their entrance, they could have had to force entry, which takes time, and more time if you don't practice such skills on a frequent basis.
Then it's a matter of clearing a school, which is a HUGE place, which screaming kids and staff and trying to find and neutralize the shooter. The reports I'm hearing say approx 15 mins elapsed between the time the 911 call was placed and the shooter selfDarwinated after facing the police which I don't see how that time could be really reduced in such a situation.
How could the time be reduced? School Resource Officer or armed staff, that's how. Every time this stuff happens we see police all togged out in war gear. I'm ecstatic to see a patrol officer in normal dress with a rifle, or in plainclothes which we saw one of. But when I see the dressed up and waiting team, I know they got dressed first. And there were plenty of waiters at VA Tech were there not? Not all the blame is to the police. Response plans? Why does every cop in town not have the means whether hard or electronic key to open the school I know some people have zero use for cops and while I'm not there, my number is low. I'd much rather have a cop in my town guarding a few hundred kids than writing parking tickets.
Back on the time, you don't clear the school, you head towards the gunshots. Quickly. If we all do this, eventually first responder will shoot first responder, first responder will lose vs. gunman, etc. and then we can all have a great bloddy newsday, but the overall toll and the perverse incentive to carry out mass shootings will be much lower.
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How could the time be reduced? School Resource Officer or armed staff, that's how. Every time this stuff happens we see police all togged out in war gear. I'm ecstatic to see a patrol officer in normal dress with a rifle, or in plainclothes which we saw one of. But when I see the dressed up and waiting team, I know they got dressed first. And there were plenty of waiters at VA Tech were there not? Not all the blame is to the police. Response plans? Why does every cop in town not have the means whether hard or electronic key to open the school I know some people have zero use for cops and while I'm not there, my number is low. I'd much rather have a cop in my town guarding a few hundred kids than writing parking tickets.
Back on the time, you don't clear the school, you head towards the gunshots. Quickly. If we all do this, eventually first responder will shoot first responder, first responder will lose vs. gunman, etc. and then we can all have a great bloddy newsday, but the overall toll and the perverse incentive to carry out mass shootings will be much lower.
I know in my experience that most new schools in our area have a Knox Box at the main door. Now I don't know if just the FD has the key or if the PD has one as well.
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How could the time be reduced? School Resource Officer or armed staff, that's how. Every time this stuff happens we see police all togged out in war gear. I'm ecstatic to see a patrol officer in normal dress with a rifle, or in plainclothes which we saw one of. But when I see the dressed up and waiting team, I know they got dressed first. And there were plenty of waiters at VA Tech were there not? Not all the blame is to the police. Response plans? Why does every cop in town not have the means whether hard or electronic key to open the school I know some people have zero use for cops and while I'm not there, my number is low. I'd much rather have a cop in my town guarding a few hundred kids than writing parking tickets.
Back on the time, you don't clear the school, you head towards the gunshots. Quickly. If we all do this, eventually first responder will shoot first responder, first responder will lose vs. gunman, etc. and then we can all have a great bloddy newsday, but the overall toll and the perverse incentive to carry out mass shootings will be much lower.
I worked campus security for my university for 3 years, as a shift supervisor for 2 of them.
Our university was not going to just give out keys to our buildings, our datacenters, our scientific equipment, our students' living quarters, and so on, to every cop on payroll in the city of Tacoma.
Our security staff had access to every door in the University, no exceptions, and it took a key ring with about 35-40 keys on it to accomplish the job. There was no "master" key.
Our security office had a trap on any "911" call placed on campus from one of our phones. It still went to TPD, but a computer in our office instantly alerted us to the exact location of it and our dispatcher and shift supervisor both had live TPD radios and callsigns on police band (Tacoma North) to coordinate necessary response to whatever was going on. Typically that was just handing over the appropriate master key for that building in the event of forceful police presence being necessary, or we would arrive about 3-5 minutes before EMS in the event of an OD/alcohol poisoning/attempted suicide (yuck) call and one team would begin first aid while the other team guided EMS to the victim.
We had no trap on cell-based "911" calls and had to monitor the police scanner in the event there was a 911 call place on a non-university line that was dispatched to the university. TPD dispatch would call us and alert us as part of their response in those cases, to coordinate access and get someone on scene ASAP.
That's just one small university with less than 3000 students.
Now add to that every public K-12 institution and any other colleges, from community colleges to trade schools to shopping malls to mega-state universities.
That's a lot of access to coordinate for 1 police department. There's no way they could have all those keys lined up. They have to work with whatever assets are on the site to gain access.
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Why does every cop in town not have the means whether hard or electronic key to open the school
Another thought on this...
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa248.e.akamai.net%2Forigin-cdn.volusion.com%2Fke4pr.p5xt7%2Fv%2Fvspfiles%2Fphotos%2FCTS.103-2.jpg%3F1329079572&hash=9c05d7eea7e6bb2ff80d1c15d8590551f9acce26)
http://www.skdtac.com/CTS-2570-2575-12-ga-Door-Breaching-Round-p/cts.103.htm
A cop with a Rem870 and a handful of breaching rounds has a master key to just about anywhere he needs to get to, and as long as he only loads one breacher at a time, he's got a forceful long gun to take down an active shooter upon arrival at the confrontation.
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When I worked at Cincinnati Public Schools, we had 8 grand master keys that opened every door in the district. My employees carried 5 or 6 of the grand masters. AFAIK we didn't share them with the police.
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Well, I was thinking a crowbar, but I suppose breaching rounds will do. Smaller school campuses without on-site security ought to have someone outside the system who can open the door even if it is just local PD shift supervisors who have access codes.
And it'd be a lot easier for cops to access the building if schools trianed staff and kids the correct way for active shooters. Open everything that opens, GTFO, run like hell. ONce the entire cavalry shows up they can round up anything that looks school age and get accountability. You could let a kindergarten run across 4 lanes of traffic and get less casualties than huddling in the corner.
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"Access codes"?
The Sandy Hook School was built in the 1950s. I very much doubt there were any "access codes." More likely a front door key that's so old you can't even find blanks to make a new copy. (Yeah, we had that happen at the town hall I worked in for awhile.)
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One thing to consider.....did the responding officers actually follow protocol & go inside immediately or did they stage before entering?
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Well, I was thinking a crowbar, but I suppose breaching rounds will do. Smaller school campuses without on-site security ought to have someone outside the system who can open the door even if it is just local PD shift supervisors who have access codes.
And it'd be a lot easier for cops to access the building if schools trianed staff and kids the correct way for active shooters. Open everything that opens, GTFO, run like hell. ONce the entire cavalry shows up they can round up anything that looks school age and get accountability. You could let a kindergarten run across 4 lanes of traffic and get less casualties than huddling in the corner.
Thats another problem. LE trains for active shooters in school buildings but they dont train with the students or most staff.
Yet they hold fire and other disaster drills all the time.
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The point has been made by some about the fire drills we hold vs. number of students who have died in school fires. About zero in the last 50 years. Even here in BFEistan the local PD wants to do active shooter training, but in the summer with no one there.