Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Ben on March 28, 2013, 10:54:05 AM
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I found the tone of this article a little disturbing regarding what they consider "evidence" of a mad gunman and what a run of the mill shooter might have in their home.
Let's see: Handwritten notes of firearms stuff I need to order? Check. Swords in a display on my wall? Check. NRA defensive pistol course binder from a class I took? Check. Gun safe? Check. Bullets? Check. Hearing protection? Check. And the list goes on. I also have books by von Clausewitz, Sun Tzu, Jeff Cooper, and Theodore Roosevelt, just in case they need more evidence.
Also on a side note, what shotgun did they end up finding in his trunk? I never saw, but the article talks about "magazines" for it. Was it actually a magazine fed shotgun?
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/28/warrants-to-be-released-in-newtown-investigation/?test=latestnews
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Wait.. when did they search my house?
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I found the tone of this article a little disturbing regarding what they consider "evidence" of a mad gunman and what a run of the mill shooter might have in their home.
Let's see: Handwritten notes of firearms stuff I need to order? Check. Swords in a display on my wall? Check. NRA defensive pistol course binder from a class I took? Check. Gun safe? Check. Bullets? Check. Hearing protection? Check. And the list goes on. I also have books by von Clausewitz, Sun Tzu, Jeff Cooper, and Theodore Roosevelt, just in case they need more evidence.
Also on a side note, what shotgun did they end up finding in his trunk? I never saw, but the article talks about "magazines" for it. Was it actually a magazine fed shotgun?
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/28/warrants-to-be-released-in-newtown-investigation/?test=latestnews
Don't know what type but here is a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLrxSgkqJQc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLrxSgkqJQc)
Also remember you are reading an interpretation of the report and not the actual report.
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Also remember you are reading an interpretation of the report and not the actual report.
Noted, though to me that is just as, or more, disturbing because it would indicate that the general, non-gun owning population might think these item are out of the ordinary (as they are mixed in the article with items that are out of the ordinary) and further lead to "common knowledge" that "hey, that guy has a list of gun stuff he wants to buy - he must be a whacko."
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What a bunch of gobbledygook.
A loaded 12-gauge shotgun was found in the glove compartment of the Honda Civic Lanza drove to the school with two magazines containing 70 rounds of Winchester 12-gauge shotgun rounds.
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Don't know what type but here is a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLrxSgkqJQc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLrxSgkqJQc)
If I were to guess from the video, it looked like maybe one of the Benelli pump/auto versions.
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A loaded 12-gauge shotgun was found in the glove compartment of the Honda Civic Lanza drove to the school with two magazines containing 70 rounds of Winchester 12-gauge shotgun rounds.
I'm trying to figure out how big a 35 rd 12ga mag would be.
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Yea, none of that stuff strikes me as particularly incriminating.
A range bag, some literature, a safe, and some ammo? Hardly unusual.
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I'm trying to figure out how big a 35 rd 12ga mag would be.
Larger than an Xrail system and that is 22+1.
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A loaded 12-gauge shotgun was found in the glove compartment of the Honda Civic Lanza drove to the school with two magazines containing 70 rounds of Winchester 12-gauge shotgun rounds.
35 round drum? Do they even make that for something like Saigas?
(I do see a 30 round magazine out there, for buttloads of money (http://www.alliancearmament.com/alliancearmament30rddrum.aspx).)
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I found the tone of this article a little disturbing regarding what they consider "evidence" of a mad gunman and what a run of the mill shooter might have in their home.
Let's see: Handwritten notes of firearms stuff I need to order? Check. Swords in a display on my wall? Check. NRA defensive pistol course binder from a class I took? Check. Gun safe? Check. Bullets? Check. Hearing protection? Check. And the list goes on. I also have books by von Clausewitz, Sun Tzu, Jeff Cooper, and Theodore Roosevelt, just in case they need more evidence.
Also on a side note, what shotgun did they end up finding in his trunk? I never saw, but the article talks about "magazines" for it. Was it actually a magazine fed shotgun?
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/28/warrants-to-be-released-in-newtown-investigation/?test=latestnews
Hey Ben;
atleast you're not like me. I have books by Sun Tzu, Machiavelli, Gaius Julius Caesar, William Pierce (Turner Diaries), Clausewitz, George A. Custer, Hitler, and various pro 2A authors in my house!
I don't have an off-hand count on how much ammo I have here.....
Should I be paranoid? [tinfoil]
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Here are the actual search warrants:
Adam Lanza search warrant — Dec. 14, 2012 (http://media.washtimes.com/media/misc/2013/03/28/search-warrant-dated-december-14-2012-at-725-pm.pdf)
Adam Lanza search warrant — Dec. 16, 2012 (http://media.washtimes.com/media/misc/2013/03/28/search-warrant-dated-december-16-2012-at-431-pm.pdf)
Adam Lanza search warrant — Dec. 15, 2012 (http://media.washtimes.com/media/misc/2013/03/28/search-warrant-dated-december-15-2012-at-303-pm.pdf)
In regard to Dec. 14, 2012, search warrant (Nancy Lanza's home) (http://media.washtimes.com/media/misc/2013/03/28/search-warrant-dated-december-14-2012-at-529-pm.pdf)
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A 12 gauge shotgun that fits in the glove compartment of a Honda Civic? I don't think that even an Ithaca Stakeout would fit.
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A majority of the gun related inventory is on this warrant (http://media.washtimes.com/media/misc/2013/03/28/search-warrant-dated-december-14-2012-at-529-pm.pdf).
ETA: A quick look at the inventory it looks like he had a lot of Sagia magazines, could the shotgun that they found in the trunk be a Sagia?
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You find what you want to find. A lot of the Lanza case remains oddly opaque. To this day. How little we know of the life of Nancy Lanza, for example. Personally, I find her selection of firearms curious...unless they were, let's say, government-issue...
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You find what you want to find. A lot of the Lanza case remains oddly opaque. To this day. How little we know of the life of Nancy Lanza, for example. Personally, I find her selection of firearms curious...unless they were, let's say, government-issue...
Please expound upon the above statement.
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Please expound upon the above statement.
BECAUSE SANDY HOOK WAS A FALSE FLAG OPERATION ORCHESTRATED BY KENYAN BORN OBAMA TO TAKE TEH GUNZ
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BECAUSE SANDY HOOK WAS A FALSE FLAG OPERATION ORCHESTRATED BY KENYAN BORN OBAMA TO TAKE TEH GUNZ
You speak the truth, since this is the INTERNET and you typed your message in ALL CAPITALS.
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What some people call an "arsenal" is really just an incomplete collection :lol:
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You speak the truth, since this is the INTERNET and you typed your message in ALL CAPITALS.
And the spelling errors add credibility. ;)
There are clearly some REAL bad guys out there, but has anyone else ever see a photo-op with some alleged bad guy's "arsenal" and think "That's no arsenal, that's just a range trip"?
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And the spelling errors add credibility. ;)
There are clearly some REAL bad guys out there, but has anyone else ever see a photo-op with some alleged bad guy's "arsenal" and think "That's no arsenal, that's just a range trip"?
Yep.
I see "arsenal" and i'm like "Hmm... looks like my collection pre-kid/wife
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BECAUSE SANDY HOOK WAS A FALSE FLAG OPERATION ORCHESTRATED BY KENYAN BORN OBAMA TO TAKE TEH GUNZ
Odd, I don't remember suggesting that. Yet. :)
10mm Glock, 9 mm SIG, Bushmaster 5.56mm. Yes, so many women shooters own exactly those three weapons, don't they? Uh, you say maybe not? Maybe not the 10mm? But they might be exactly gov't-issue weapons. Or maybe Nancy Lanza was that one female shooter in a million who settled on that exact primary triad of weapons...? It could be, who knows. Then again...
Not saying THEY ARE, saying they could be, and saying that there is much more NOT known about this case than known, that's all. We know, months later, next to nothing about either parent's vita. To me that' s strange, to others, I guess, not so much.
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Which agency issues a Glock 20 again?
And other then NAVSPECWAR, who issues a Sig 226? The M11 is a 228.
ETA: I'm told it could be a G29 as well. Not a glock guy. The question stands though. I don't thing any US agency issues a 10mm pistol.
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Not necessarily currently, formerly; it was once the great white hope of government handgun calibers, as we all know. I'll leave the SIG/Glock issuance matter to those on the board with specific expertise in that, but those are certainly the current handguns of choice for gov't agencies. As for the 10mm caliber, whether Glock 20 or 29, it is not a typical self-defense purchase, not exactly a popular item with female shooters. Perhaps you'd concede that much? That said, I am merely suggesting that something about the "discovery" in this case seems lacking. We still know very little about Adam's parents, much less than you would expect at this point.
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The search warrants released Thursday made no mention of a massive spreadsheet Lanza reportedly compiled containing extensive research on previous mass murders.
How come that is. A grossly underplayed element of the story.
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There's been a LOT of misinformation and contradictory facts out on this one.
Although I am VERY intrigued by the idea of a 12ga shotgun, feeding from a 35 rd mag, that will fit in a glove box. Where can I get me one of THOSE?
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massive spreadsheet Lanza reportedly compiled containing extensive research on previous mass murders
No honest man needs more than ten rows and columns :angel:
There's been a LOT of misinformation and contradictory facts out on this one.
Although I am VERY intrigued by the idea of a 12ga shotgun, feeding from a 35 rd mag, that will fit in a glove box. Where can I get me one of THOSE?
I want to know where I can get a Tardis glove box =D
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Not necessarily currently, formerly; it was once the great white hope of government handgun calibers, as we all know. I'll leave the SIG/Glock issuance matter to those on the board with specific expertise in that, but those are certainly the current handguns of choice for gov't agencies. As for the 10mm caliber, whether Glock 20 or 29, it is not a typical self-defense purchase, not exactly a popular item with female shooters. Perhaps you'd concede that much? That said, I am merely suggesting that something about the "discovery" in this case seems lacking. We still know very little about Adam's parents, much less than you would expect at this point.
That I'll concede, but given the evidence already that she provided firearms for her son, I think it's orders of magnatude more likely that Adam picked out the firearms based on internet gun boards and video games.
You may be suggesting NOW that discovery is lacking. IDK. I don't know any more or less about Mrs. Lanza then any of the other victoms. Seems like the media never really cares about them. However your first post suggested that a 226, a G20/29 and a Bushmaster were weapons a .gov agency would issue. They are, IMO, not.
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If an arsenal is only a few firearms I shudder to think what the idiots in the press would make of my meager collection and woefully under-stocked ammo supply.
List of things I want to buy- my wish lists on MidwayUSA, Brownells, Midsouth and assorted other websites would probably make some of those nancy boy news "reporters" wet their pants, again.
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I'm trying to figure out how big a 35 rd 12ga mag would be.
Bigger than any made. It was a Saiga-12, and the (very pricey) 30 rounders are freaking huge. I had one a while back with a pro-mag 12 round drum. The drum was about the size of a large grape-fruit. The 20 round drum had the diameter of a cantelope. And those really expensive and fragile 30 rounders seem about the diameter of a basketball. As far as I know nothing larger than 30 rounds is made.
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IMHO, most, almost all, reporters who breathlessly describe technical details about firearms are monumentally ignorant. The reports are unleavened by fact. Most of these reporters wear their ignorance like a badge of honor in the service The Greater Good of Gun Control. Actually, like KNOWING something about the tawdry details (magazine vs. clip, bullet vs. cartridge, semiautomatic vs. automatic, revolver vs. pistol, et endless cetera) might weaken their faith in The Cause. This knowledge is to be avoided.
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Not necessarily currently, formerly; it was once the great white hope of government handgun calibers, as we all know.
So was the 38S&W at one point in history. What's your point?
I'll leave the SIG/Glock issuance matter to those on the board with specific expertise in that, but those are certainly the current handguns of choice for gov't agencies.
As well as multitudes of gun fanbois (and girls).
As for the 10mm caliber, whether Glock 20 or 29, it is not a typical self-defense purchase, not exactly a popular item with female shooters.
So what's your point? Not all guns are purchased for "self defense" and not all women shooters are "typical" or bothered by recoil. I know one female shooter (friend, hunting partner, and former coworker) who owns multiple Glocks, H&Ks, 1911s, and magnum revolvers. She doesn't have a 10mm to my knowledge, but she does own a 45-70 guide gun and a 375H&H (and a 270, and a 308, and a 30-06, and an AR). I suspect she's not the only female with a nice collection of atypical firearms (for the delicate females of the nation)
So, again, what is your point?
Chris
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So was the 38S&W at one point in history. What's your point?
As well as multitudes of gun fanbois (and girls).
So what's your point? Not all guns are purchased for "self defense" and not all women shooters are "typical" or bothered by recoil. I know one female shooter (friend, hunting partner, and former coworker) who owns multiple Glocks, H&Ks, 1911s, and magnum revolvers. She doesn't have a 10mm to my knowledge, but she does own a 45-70 guide gun and a 375H&H (and a 270, and a 308, and a 30-06, and an AR). I suspect she's not the only female with a nice collection of atypical firearms (for the delicate females of the nation)
So, again, what is your point?
Chris
Its a data point. It may mean nothing by itself. But its worth making note of.
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There's been a LOT of misinformation and contradictory facts out on this one.
Although I am VERY intrigued by the idea of a 12ga shotgun, feeding from a 35 rd mag, that will fit in a glove box. Where can I get me one of THOSE?
My bet is he had a shotgun and several boxes of shells, probably in the trunk (from which, I believe, there is video of the police removing a shotgun), which the idiot reporter translated into "70 rounds in a magazine and a shotgun in the GLOVE COMPARTMENT!"
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IMHO, most, almost all, reporters who breathlessly describe technical details about firearms are monumentally ignorant. ...
Fixed ;)
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So was the 38S&W at one point in history. What's your point?
As well as multitudes of gun fanbois (and girls).
So what's your point? Not all guns are purchased for "self defense" and not all women shooters are "typical" or bothered by recoil. I know one female shooter (friend, hunting partner, and former coworker) who owns multiple Glocks, H&Ks, 1911s, and magnum revolvers. She doesn't have a 10mm to my knowledge, but she does own a 45-70 guide gun and a 375H&H (and a 270, and a 308, and a 30-06, and an AR). I suspect she's not the only female with a nice collection of atypical firearms (for the delicate females of the nation)
So, again, what is your point?
Chris
My point was what I said. There are "odd" things about this case that beg for more scrutiny. I stand by the fact that to me the choice of weapons implies possible government-issue. Notice I said "possible." By the way, what do we know about where and when and by whom those firearms were purchased? Anything? Strange that all this is just brushed over given how "big" this case has been made.
I don't need to tell you that anecdotal evidence does not prove your point. Of course there are exceptions, but if you are trying to suggest I am anti-feminist by saying that few women opt for 10mm handguns, that's silly. Maybe there are sales figures by gender that can settle it? I am only trying to indicate that when things are unusual they require more investigation than we have so far seen.
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Its a data point. It may mean nothing by itself. But its worth making note of.
No different than the data point posted by longeyes except mine doesn't include conspiracy theories.
My point was what I said. There are "odd" things about this case that beg for more scrutiny. I stand by the fact that to me the choice of weapons implies possible government-issue. Notice I said "possible." By the way, what do we know about where and when and by whom those firearms were purchased? Anything? Strange that all this is just brushed over given how "big" this case has been made.
What difference does her choice of guns make outside the feverish conspiracy theories of your mind? If you were to visit the NRA HQ range in Fairfax, VA on any busy night, you'd see a similar collection of guns on just about every lane. The 10mm is a bit odd, but not so much to cause concern. Then again, not many guys have the 10mm either, it's kind of an obscure caliber these days. So are the 32-20 and 32swl, both of which combined constitute roughly 1/4th of my handgun collection.
I don't need to tell you that anecdotal evidence does not prove your point.
:rolleyes:
I matched your one data point with one of my own and *mine* isn't sufficient?
Of course there are exceptions, but if you are trying to suggest I am anti-feminist by saying that few women opt for 10mm handguns, that's silly.
I didn't make any such suggestions. Not many guys shoot the 10mm either, what does that say? Maybe that it's an enthusiast chambering these days? Of all the shooters I know, folks who shoot everything from 22lr up to the big Linebaugh calibers and the 500Mag, only one has owned a 10mm. Nah, it's an obvious govt conspiracy!!eleventy!! [tinfoil]
Maybe there are sales figures by gender that can settle it? I am only trying to indicate that when things are unusual they require more investigation than we have so far seen.
Except there's nothing truly unusual about her selection of guns. How many times do we insist others not read motive into our own gun purchases?
Wait!
I get it now.
The 10mm was defacto proof of govt action in Enemies Foreign & Domestic. That's where you got it from. Because it was in a work of fiction, it MUST mean something in real life. [ar15]
Chris
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Wait!
I get it now.
The 10mm was defacto proof of govt action in Enemies Foreign & Domestic. That's where you got it from. Because it was in a work of fiction, it MUST mean something in real life. [ar15]
Chris
If i were going to *expletive deleted* with the threeper crowd, and let them know they were being *expletive deleted*ed with, thats how i would do it. As i said, by itself it means nothing. But if, other, blatantly obvious continuity problems show up, it still wouldnt be proof, but it might give you an idea where to look for it.
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No different than the data point posted by longeyes except mine doesn't include conspiracy theories.
What difference does her choice of guns make outside the feverish conspiracy theories of your mind? If you were to visit the NRA HQ range in Fairfax, VA on any busy night, you'd see a similar collection of guns on just about every lane. The 10mm is a bit odd, but not so much to cause concern. Then again, not many guys have the 10mm either, it's kind of an obscure caliber these days. So are the 32-20 and 32swl, both of which combined constitute roughly 1/4th of my handgun collection.
:rolleyes:
I matched your one data point with one of my own and *mine* isn't sufficient?
I didn't make any such suggestions. Not many guys shoot the 10mm either, what does that say? Maybe that it's an enthusiast chambering these days? Of all the shooters I know, folks who shoot everything from 22lr up to the big Linebaugh calibers and the 500Mag, only one has owned a 10mm. Nah, it's an obvious govt conspiracy!!eleventy!! [tinfoil]
Except there's nothing truly unusual about her selection of guns. How many times do we insist others not read motive into our own gun purchases?
Wait!
I get it now.
The 10mm was defacto proof of govt action in Enemies Foreign & Domestic. That's where you got it from. Because it was in a work of fiction, it MUST mean something in real life. [ar15]
Chris
You obviously don't get it. Fine. What I said was that few females opted for 10mm and you countered with an anecdote about some woman you know who has one. So...? That does not address my point, which was the rarity, sir, the rarity.
I proffered no conspiracy theories, just a suggestion that we all lacked information you would think we might have by now, including some that really does not require deep probing. I found that curious. But here, once again, come the personal slurs from the gun-wise peanut gallery. I assume you are implying, not for the first time, that you are a pillar of sanity astride your mountain bike and I am way on the "feverish" lunatic fringe. You don't know how pompous you sound, man. Sit high and enjoy the view from your pinnacle as an APS poobah.
And for the poster above who suggested the the SIG 226 and 228 are not both gov't-issued, you're wrong.
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And for the poster above who suggested the the SIG 226 and 228 are not both gov't-issued, you're wrong.
Actually what I said was:
And other then NAVSPECWAR, who issues a Sig 226?
And the answer, apparantly, is the FBI in a limited capacity, and less then 10 city police departments. And 2 of those drop off if I limit it to 9mm. So it doesn't exactly scream "Revenuer!"
I put forward an alternate theory to explain the choice of weapons, I still think it's orders of magnitude more likely that Adam picked the guns and his mother bought them.
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gotta go with a quality info source
http://www.infowars.com/cover-up-of-adam-lanza-link-to-psychotropic-drugs/
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I've read some reports on his "frightening arsenal" that included 1600 rounds of ammo (what, like 3 bricks of .22s?), a .323 (?) bolt action rifle, a Savage .22 rifle, and (Horror of Horrors!) a BB gun and a STARTER PISTOL :facepalm:
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You obviously don't get it. Fine. What I said was that few females opted for 10mm and you countered with an anecdote about some woman you know who has one. So...? That does not address my point, which was the rarity, sir, the rarity.
Actually I get it just fine, you're looking for meaning where none exists. I didn't say my friend has one, but pointed her out as a female who had multiple guns not usually owned by women (large caliber handguns, magnum rifles, etc). My point being that you can't read much into a gun collection. How many folks on this board own guns that are used by govt and militaries past and present?
Actually, what you said was:
You find what you want to find. A lot of the Lanza case remains oddly opaque. To this day. How little we know of the life of Nancy Lanza, for example. Personally, I find her selection of firearms curious...unless they were, let's say, government-issue...
That's not quite the same as commenting on their rarity in the ranks of female shooters, which itself is a nonsensical statement since the 10mm is fairly rare amongst male shooters as well. For all intents and purposes, the 10mm is a dead caliber, the 41mag of semiautos (wait, some folks own the 41mag, maybe those are govt plants as well).
I proffered no conspiracy theories, just a suggestion that we all lacked information you would think we might have by now, including some that really does not require deep probing. I found that curious.
Of course you didn't, you never post anything specific, just vague accusations pointing to grand conspiracies.
Since she is dead, you'll never know what motivated her to buy those guns. The selection, other than possibly the 10mm, is not at all odd for a female shooter. The 10mm is a bit outside the norm for any shooter, but still mainstream enough to be easily found at any stocking Glock dealer, so it's not exactly indicative of anything beyond her desire to own one.
But here, once again, come the personal slurs from the gun-wise peanut gallery. I assume you are implying, not for the first time, that you are a pillar of sanity astride your mountain bike and I am way on the "feverish" lunatic fringe. You don't know how pompous you sound, man. Sit high and enjoy the view from your pinnacle as an APS poobah.
You have a mighty thin skin, though I do strike a fine figure astride my mountain bike. :D
Though, I didn't realize I had been elevated to the level of "grand poobah".
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F_2umCamnY7Ac%2FTNmk6zd2zpI%2FAAAAAAAADqw%2FhAgNfegw1L0%2Fs1600%2Fpoobah-709241.jpg&hash=94e79654cb3c33a556dd9e11e00d0ca2a7c0d33b)
Chris
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That's not quite the same as commenting on their rarity in the ranks of female shooters, which itself is a nonsensical statement since the 10mm is fairly rare amongst male shooters as well. For all intents and purposes, the 10mm is a dead caliber, the 41mag of semiautos (wait, some folks own the 41mag, maybe those are govt plants as well).
I have a .41 mag.
and am building a 10mm. Wait, how is that going to look in the press. "combat handgun home modified to be more powerful and carry more rounds...."
uh.............nevermind. I don't have either. [tinfoil]
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I used to shoot with a guy that had a 10mm 1911 (not his regular shooter).
He brought it to one of our low light/flashlight shoots.
The flash from that thing in an indoor range with the lights out was impressive!
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I have a couple of Delta Elites. I bought them when the Jeff Cooper 10MM love was in full swing. I really don't pay attention to where 10MMs are now in popularity, other than being glad I reload it, because factory ammo isn't that available or cheap. There was a time though, when they were the "in" thing, and I really like the cartridge. If I ever get around to taking one of my Delta's to the gunsmith for an ambi safety, I would be quite happy to CCW the thing. With true standard 10MM loads, they make a fine semi-auto alternative for personal defense in areas where people are not your only concern.
Don't know why the Lanzas had a 10MM, but there are many reasons a person might want to own and shoot one.
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I have one of those dangerous-and abhorrent-to-women stainless Colt Delta Elites.
Wife #1 absolutely loved to shoot it. Wife #2, not so much.
Maybe anecdotal, maybe data. Who knows?
If I get to Wife #3 someday, I'll see if there's a conspiracy afoot... =D
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When you get to wife #3 you can call it a quorum, not a conspiracy. =D
It's too bad we have to eat our own, even here. This forum supposedly bars personal attacks, so you would think that those charged with maintaining order would follow that dictum most scrupulously. You'd think; you'd be wrong.
A lot about Newtown just doesn't wash, and my view is just that we need to find out why, especially given that this is the straw that is meant to break our backs. The bogie of "conspiracy theories" is overdone, but why noodle about semantics. The point is that there are people who will lie, cheat, steal, and murder to further their agenda. Whether they do this in formal conspiracies, shared agendas, or just as swimmers in the same cultural stream doesn't matter as much as what is being done and why and to whom for what purpose. There is a lot we don't know, can't know, will never probably know, but we should try to discern its outlines, if only by circumstantial evidence, as well as we can--for our own self-protection.
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A lot about Newtown just doesn't wash, and my view is just that we need to find out why, especially given that this is the straw that is meant to break our backs. The bogie of "conspiracy theories" is overdone, but why noodle about semantics. The point is that there are people who will lie, cheat, steal, and murder to further their agenda. Whether they do this in formal conspiracies, shared agendas, or just as swimmers in the same cultural stream doesn't matter as much as what is being done and why and to whom for what purpose. There is a lot we don't know, can't know, will never probably know, but we should try to discern its outlines, if only by circumstantial evidence, as well as we can--for our own self-protection.
Yeah.....uh.... I disagree.
Adam Lanza was a crazy little *expletive deleted*it who's mom catered to his whims, from not socializing him to buying him weapons, until such time as he was so fully crazy as to not be easily stopped. Then he went on a spree to make as big a name for himself and punish his mother's (percieved) betrayal. And sadly he succeeded at both.
If you have any actual evidence...of anything, I'd be interested. Barely discerned outlines need not apply.
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A lot about Newtown just doesn't wash, and my view is just that we need to find out why, especially given that this is the straw that is meant to break our backs.
Because most of what we "know" comes through the filter of journalists who have no clue what they are talking about. Not only about firearms, but police procedures and everything else they are reporting on. Facts get reported as rumours and rumours get reported as facts. So unless you were there at the crime scene as it was happening, we have to take what is being reported with a degree of skepticism, not as gospel truth. And even then eyewitness only see events from their perspective, not from on high with a G-d's Eye view of the entire scene.
If you want to paint journalistic incompetence as some grand "They set this up" conspiracy, you are free to do so. However, when others mock your theory(ies), (like we do with Troothers, Birthers, and Globular Woerming religionists), don't get your panties in a wad.
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Old saying goes
If you are gonna play the game learn to wear the name
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2
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Don't know why the Lanzas had a 10MM, but there are many reasons a person might want to own and shoot one.
She was rich. An impulse purchase, perhaps?
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She was rich. An impulse purchase, perhaps?
All of her friends had a 9mm.
She wanted something bigger than they had. :lol:
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I wonder if she was on a gunboard somewhere. That would be interesting. Do I recall correctly, that the kid wiped his PC beforehand?
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I wonder if she was on a gunboard somewhere. That would be interesting. Do I recall correctly, that the kid wiped his PC beforehand?
I believe he attempted to destroy the HDD.
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So, does this mean I shouldn't buy a Glock 20?
;/
The guns a person has in there collection means nothing more then that's what they like/want.
Who knows why they Lanza's had a Glock 20.
Does it really *expletive deleted*ing matter?
The question of "who should have what and why" is not a question WE should ask, bother to discuss or even entertain. It is a question of the anti gun movement which they want answered at our expence.
As for tinfoiling this event, Really? That's what we decend too?
Yes, we know that the anti's jump on these tragic events and politise them to the maximum, but to sit and *whine* about it being a government setup is wasting time.
In all (sad) honesty, the government doesn't need to manufacture such events. They happen in the natural course of events, and esculate in times of civil unease.
I'm more concerned with the media continuing to hype what I consider to be a mediocore collection of firearm related stuff as a sign of insainity.
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I'm more concerned with the media continuing to hype what I consider to be a mediocore collection of firearm related stuff as a sign of insainity.
This. Every time I hear 4-6 firearms and 1000 rounds of ammo being described as an "arsenal"...when I would describe it as a "reasonable, though not excessive, day at the range", terrifies me.
If that is an arsenal, imagine what would be said about some of the collections on this board?
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This. Every time I hear 4-6 firearms and 1000 rounds of ammo being described as an "arsenal"...when I would describe it as a "reasonable, though not excessive, day at the range", terrifies me.
If that is an arsenal, imagine what would be said about some of the collections on this board?
Arms depot?
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If you have to make more than 3 trips to your car just to set up your range bench you might be a terrorist.
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If you have to make more than 3 trips to your car just to set up your range bench you might be a terrorist.
Hell, your car on a daily basis, no range trip, probably would qualify.
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Or deciding which handgun to carry today =D
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Or deciding which handgun to carry today =D
I suprised my dad ever can make it out of the house on time.
Last I checked there were three diffrent loaded pistols on the shelf in his headboard, and he wasn't home, so who knows what was with him.
He usually seems to narrow it down to two.
It's worse then a woman with a closet full of shoes.
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I suprised my dad ever can make it out of the house on time.
Last I checked there were three diffrent loaded pistols on the shelf in his headboard, and he wasn't home, so who knows what was with him.
He usually seems to narrow it down to two.
It's worse then a woman with a closet full of shoes.
A guy has to decide whether to flaunt it or cover it up :lol:
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I don't care what you mock, it doesn't change what is going on. This is not just about "journalistic incompetence." This is about information black-outs that cannot be dismissed that facilely. What you know about Nancy Lanza or her husband can be summed up in two, three sentences. That isn't accidental; is it a conspiracy? I don't know, do you? It is very easy to dismiss what is going on in America as foolish conspiracy-making, but the people who run things are counting on your thinking that way. It is just as foolish to dismiss conspiracies as to see them everywhere (and I don't). I have suggested the need to turn over a lot more rocks, that's all.
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I don't care what you mock, it doesn't change what is going on. This is not just about "journalistic incompetence." This is about information black-outs that cannot be dismissed that facilely. What you know about Nancy Lanza or her husband can be summed up in two, three sentences. That isn't accidental; is it a conspiracy? I don't know, do you? It is very easy to dismiss what is going on in America as foolish conspiracy-making, but the people who run things are counting on your thinking that way. It is just as foolish to dismiss conspiracies as to see them everywhere (and I don't). I have suggested the need to turn over a lot more rocks, that's all.
I must point out to you that I know even less about the killers' parents at Columbine. (And I don't remember their names, BY CHOICE. These sub-human wretches don't even deserve infamy.)
That's not a conspiracy, that just seems to be the way it works. (Same for Virginia Tech, Arizona, Denver, etc...)
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"That just seems to be the way it works."
Well, indeed, it does.
Maybe that's why we still haven't heard, for example, from the people who were there in Benghazi?
The fact is, a very few people make the decisions about what constitutes "news," constitutes reality. It is less about conspiracy than about the control of information by small cadres of people. How many people do you think are in on the editorial meetings at, say, the Washington Post when editors decide what a "story" is and isn't? (I can tell you: I've been there. Answer: not many.)
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"That just seems to be the way it works."
Well, indeed, it does.
Maybe that's why we still haven't heard, for example, from the people who were there in Benghazi?
No, that is a lack of journalistic curiosity in protection of their boyfriend.
I was not specific enough in my point- we don't know much about the parents of the mass shooters because it is the nature of reporters to avoid trying to place blame on the parents. The more they report about who the parents are, their relationship to each other and to the mass murderer, the more it looks like they are trying to say it's the parent's fault. As a result, most reporters will avoid providing (or even looking into) information about the parents so that they will not be uninvited to their preferred cocktail parties for being such a crass boor. (Or, they may actually wish to avoid blaming the parents, thinking such things "just happen). Whatever the motivation, they want to avoid the appearance of blaming the parents.
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To whom it may concern, which ought to be all of you:
Someone has changed my screen name. Boys will be boys, I guess.
I would like to believe that this is some ill-conceived April Fool's joke, but then again I'm a bit cynical at this point in life.
/longeyes/
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To whom it may concern, which ought to be all of you:
Someone has changed my screen name. Boys will be boys, I guess.
I would like to believe that this is some ill-conceived April Fool's joke, but then again I'm a bit cynical at this point in life.
/longeyes/
Being sour grapes about it probably doesn't help.
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To whom it may concern, which ought to be all of you:
Someone has changed my screen name. Boys will be boys, I guess.
I would like to believe that this is some ill-conceived April Fool's joke, but then again I'm a bit cynical at this point in life.
/longeyes/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syV2LkGpQB0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syV2LkGpQB0)
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Lol
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To whom it may concern, which ought to be all of you:
Someone has changed my screen name. Boys will be boys, I guess.
I would like to believe that this is some ill-conceived April Fool's joke, but then again I'm a bit cynical at this point in life.
/longeyes/
That sounds exactly like something an FBI Informant might say... [tinfoil]
[popcorn]
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Being sour grapes about it probably doesn't help.
Stop, think, repeat.
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To whom it may concern, which ought to be all of you:
Someone has changed my screen name. Boys will be boys, I guess.
I would like to believe that this is some ill-conceived April Fool's joke, but then again I'm a bit cynical at this point in life.
/longeyes/
Please don't take offense. This happens around here every April 1st to somebody/somebodies.
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Stop, think, repeat.
Maybe he should be tinfoil.
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This definitely explains a lot. I am glad the moderators figured it out. =D
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To whom it may concern, which ought to be all of you:
Someone has changed my screen name. Boys will be boys, I guess.
I would like to believe that this is some ill-conceived April Fool's joke, but then again I'm a bit cynical at this point in life.
/longeyes/
At least it wasn't changed to Agent Provocateur. :P
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Or Mr. Entrapment.
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I originally voted for "Soothsayer", myself. ;)
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I originally voted for "Soothsayer", myself. ;)
Well, I will note it's not April Fools anymore, so someone ought to let our "FBI Informant" go back undercover.
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I must point out to you that I know even less about the killers' parents at Columbine. (And I don't remember their names, BY CHOICE. These sub-human wretches don't even deserve infamy.)
That's not a conspiracy, that just seems to be the way it works. (Same for Virginia Tech, Arizona, Denver, etc...)
The difference is his mother bought the guns. One would think there would be more out there about the woman who armed one of the most horrific mass murderers in our history.
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The difference is his mother bought the guns. One would think there would be more out there about the woman who armed one of the most horrific mass murderers in our history.
Yes, but she armed him as a consequence of her own murder.
Reporters also have an aversion to appearing to blame the victim. My guess is that is also at play.
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When you get to wife #3 you can call it a quorum, not a conspiracy. =D
It's too bad we have to eat our own, even here. This forum supposedly bars personal attacks, so you would think that those charged with maintaining order would follow that dictum most scrupulously. You'd think; you'd be wrong.
A lot about Newtown just doesn't wash, and my view is just that we need to find out why, especially given that this is the straw that is meant to break our backs. The bogie of "conspiracy theories" is overdone, but why noodle about semantics. The point is that there are people who will lie, cheat, steal, and murder to further their agenda. Whether they do this in formal conspiracies, shared agendas, or just as swimmers in the same cultural stream doesn't matter as much as what is being done and why and to whom for what purpose. There is a lot we don't know, can't know, will never probably know, but we should try to discern its outlines, if only by circumstantial evidence, as well as we can--for our own self-protection.
Clique
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JjkQSREjxH0#t=30s
Clique
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=YfjTZLxekig#t=45s
Boom.
Inherent in most all human organizations. Lots of them can be explained by analogy to junior high school.
As for the Adam Lanza deal, sometimes a cigar 10mm is just a cigar 10mm(0).
Yes, sometimes meaning can be inferred from firearms purchases/ownership. For instance, if the only thing you knew about Farmer A was that he owned only a single shot 12ga shotgun and Farmer B that he owned only a single centerfire rifle, odds are that A is from east of the Mississippi and B is more likely from out west. Does anyone think there is no correlation between military service and Beretta M92 ownership? RG revolvers, Raven semi-autos and family income? Multiple comblock rifles (AK, SKS, M-N) in the same cartridge, spam cans of that milsurp cartridge, and preppers? Not so far-fetched.
FWIW, I am not seeing Lanza's Glock 10mm as anything other than chance/impulse. I recall one of those Shooter's Bible/Annual Handgun Skinny books that contained 20+ magazine articles plus a catalog of (then) currently produced guns from years back(1). The author/editor/collator was a big fan of 10mm and Glock 10mm in particular. LOTs of them available via used books stores. Perhaps Mama or Adam Lanza read that and went all 10mm Glock-happy. You know the kinda folks I am talking about. You may have been the sort of folks I am talking about.
Of course, what is news and what isn't news has been determined, in large part, by the New York Times for decades. Even many small-town newspapers look to the NYT for "what is fit to print." It is no secret that the NYT has always pushed its own agenda and had turned the agenda-pushing knob up to eleven in the last decade or so. Sometimes it gets a big head of steam behind it (current gun-grabbing bubble, gay pseudo-marriage) and sometimes not so much (Women must be allowed to join Augusta National!). This can be carried over to the MSM in a more diluted fashion. MSM, gov't functionaries, policritters, high finance....all pull from the same colleges and end up with similarly-minded folk with many shared assumptions. You don't need an explicit conspiracy to get the results we see. Though, there is a conspiracy in many cases. What was Journolist, but a loose conspiracy by MSM folks to promote their agendas and destroy their enemies? (Think that has stopped?) Climategate email & source code releases (I, II, and now III) demonstrate dictionary-definition conspiracy. Hard to argue, "There is no conspiracy" when conspirators' own communications say otherwise.
(0) FTR, I wish I had bought one of those old S&W 10mm semi-autos when S&W bumped uglies with Clinton and gun shops were shucking off S&W product like prom dresses.
(1) The first such book I ever read as a kid had Bren Ten pistols listed.
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Oh, someone with admin privileges want to restore my usual avatar & username?
Note, next 01APR, a much more poultry-rific avatar would be Foghorn Leghorn.
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Clique
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JjkQSREjxH0#t=30s
Clique
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=YfjTZLxekig#t=45s
Boom.
Inherent in most all human organizations. Lots of them can be explained by analogy to junior high school.
As for the Adam Lanza deal, sometimes a cigar 10mm is just a cigar 10mm(0).
Yes, sometimes meaning can be inferred from firearms purchases/ownership. For instance, if the only thing you knew about Farmer A was that he owned only a single shot 12ga shotgun and Farmer B that he owned only a single centerfire rifle, odds are that A is from east of the Mississippi and B is more likely from out west. Does anyone think there is no correlation between military service and Beretta M92 ownership? RG revolvers, Raven semi-autos and family income? Multiple comblock rifles (AK, SKS, M-N) in the same cartridge, spam cans of that milsurp cartridge, and preppers? Not so far-fetched.
FWIW, I am not seeing Lanza's Glock 10mm as anything other than chance/impulse. I recall one of those Shooter's Bible/Annual Handgun Skinny books that contained 20+ magazine articles plus a catalog of (then) currently produced guns from years back(1). The author/editor/collator was a big fan of 10mm and Glock 10mm in particular. LOTs of them available via used books stores. Perhaps Mama or Adam Lanza read that and went all 10mm Glock-happy. You know the kinda folks I am talking about. You may have been the sort of folks I am talking about.
Of course, what is news and what isn't news has been determined, in large part, by the New York Times for decades. Even many small-town newspapers look to the NYT for "what is fit to print." It is no secret that the NYT has always pushed its own agenda and had turned the agenda-pushing knob up to eleven in the last decade or so. Sometimes it gets a big head of steam behind it (current gun-grabbing bubble, gay pseudo-marriage) and sometimes not so much (Women must be allowed to join Augusta National!). This can be carried over to the MSM in a more diluted fashion. MSM, gov't functionaries, policritters, high finance....all pull from the same colleges and end up with similarly-minded folk with many shared assumptions. You don't need an explicit conspiracy to get the results we see. Though, there is a conspiracy in many cases. What was Journolist, but a loose conspiracy by MSM folks to promote their agendas and destroy their enemies? (Think that has stopped?) Climategate email & source code releases (I, II, and now III) demonstrate dictionary-definition conspiracy. Hard to argue, "There is no conspiracy" when conspirators' own communications say otherwise.
(0) FTR, I wish I had bought one of those old S&W 10mm semi-autos when S&W bumped uglies with Clinton and gun shops were shucking off S&W product like prom dresses.
(1) The first such book I ever read as a kid had Bren Ten pistols listed.
The Glock 10mm was not, repeat not, the primary issue. I noted that the main triad of weapons N. Lanza owned--Bushmaster, Glock and SIG pistols--suggested a possible government issue. I opined that it was an unusual selection--not an impossible one--for female shooters. That's it, the long & the short of it.
Nor did I affirm a conspiracy as such.
And, lastly, your point about the NY Times, JournoList, et al. is not something I disagree with. But what that points to is that we need a broader definition of "conspiracy" to reflect cultural concurrence.
What remains, however, is the paucity of hard information to fill out the context of the Sandy Hook event. And that, to me, indicates that there is more to this than meets the eye. You may have another opinion.
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Yes, but she armed him as a consequence of her own murder.
Reporters also have an aversion to appearing to blame the victim. My guess is that is also at play.
No, the sketchy reports we are getting seem to indicate that she provided him access to weapons as well encouragement in the use of them.
If he was emotionally disturbed and prone to outbursts or violence/threats of violence I'm not sure I understand her allowing him access to guns.
She does not at this point seem to be someone we should embrace as representitive of the typical gun owner.
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Or maybe some Gun Shop Commando pitched her a deal. "See this 10MM? The FBI uses these, so you know they are the greatest things since sliced bread. Plus, this one is on-sale and can be had for the low, low price of.....".
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Now HERE's some legal gobbledy-gook for you:
That the investigation, which was the basis for the issuing of the search warrant, is still continuing. That no arrests have been made and while none are currently anticipated, arrests have not been ruled out and the investigation is fully active and on-going by both state and federal authorities. Additionally:
- There is information contained in the non-redacted search warrant affidavit and return that is not known to the general public and any potential suspect(s), the disclosure of which would jeopardize the investigation and chances of successfully solving any crime(s) involved;
This was dated March 27 -- that's more than three MONTHS after the crime. The perpetrator and his mother (the source of the guns) are both dead. The police have long since known where the guns were bought, and that they were all purchased legally within Connecticut. What's to protect? Why the secrecy? The crime HAS BEEN solved. This is nothing but a ploy to keep the general public from knowing what the police know until after the legislature has shoved draconian new anti-gun laws through. Once the new laws are in place, the State Police will be only too happy to talk about what they found -- but they won't admit that nothing they found justifies the new laws.
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Wife #1 absolutely loved to shoot it. Wife #2, not so much.
Maybe anecdotal, maybe data. Who knows?
Remember, "The plural of anecdote is not data."
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Remember, "The plural of anecdote is not data."
birdman addressed this rather elegantly in some past post, but in reality the plurality of anecdote IS data. The difference being in the methodology of collecting the data points/anecdotes. Empiricism states that knowledge (~data) comes about via observation. If sloppily and unsystematically collected, that data is not worth much and many more observations are required to see patterns and draw conclusions. OTOH, if the data is collected in a methodologically sound fashion, one might be able to use it with confidence.
Thing is, before the scientific method was codified and before statistics (the discipline) were understood, people were still able to learn things about the world and see patterns. We would never have been able to come up with the scientific method had our forebears not done so.
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birdman addressed this rather elegantly in some past post, but in reality the plurality of anecdote IS data. The difference being in the methodology of collecting the data points/anecdotes. Empiricism states that knowledge (~data) comes about via observation. If sloppily and unsystematically collected, that data is not worth much and many more observations are required to see patterns and draw conclusions. OTOH, if the data is collected in a methodologically sound fashion, one might be able to use it with confidence.
Thing is, before the scientific method was codified and before statistics (the discipline) were understood, people were still able to learn things about the world and see patterns. We would never have been able to come up with the scientific method had our forebears not done so.
I've hit my thumb with a hammer a few times.
I'm not really interested in scientifically collecting more data. :lol:
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I've hit my thumb with a hammer a few times.
I'm not really interested in scientifically collecting more data. :lol:
One part of sound methodology is repeatability. Looks like you got that covered.
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Oh, someone with admin privileges want to restore my usual avatar & username?
Note, next 01APR, a much more poultry-rific avatar would be Foghorn Leghorn.
Don't forget the Chickenhawk: ;)
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