Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: AZRedhawk44 on April 24, 2013, 12:33:15 PM
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http://www.wired.com/reviews/2013/04/zero-ds/
Guy who wrote this review is pretty clearly a San Francisco weenie.
He kept moaning in ecstasy over the deliberate handicaps that an electric vehicle imposes upon its rider. The deliberateness of route-planning, the asceticism it compels in the transportee.
That being said, I think a bike like this would be great for daily commuting to work and back, or errands around town limited to a 75 mile range. At $14,000 starting price however, I ain't biting. Maybe at a third of that. This thing is a toy on par with a 400cc DRZ, IMO.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wired.com%2Freviews%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F04%2F130320_ZeroMotorcycle_0128-660x440.jpg&hash=b0475d738d208e15321fc17605105cecdc856f76)
However:
1. The notion of a dual-sport/enduro electric bike (author makes assertion that it has dual-sport suspension, and the tires are excessively treaded for an urban bike) makes me ROFLMAO. Where you gonna get the juice to charge your dual-sport when you ride it 50 miles out into the country and the additional torque you suck up with all the hills you climbed turned your conventional 75-90 mile range to a 55-60 mile range? Why even tease the rider with a dual-sport config with such a wretched limitation? Put street tires on it, decrease rolling resistance from the dual sport tires, and add another 5 miles to its urban range. It ain't a dual sport. Dual sports are intended to run fire roads and cross entire counties (of man-sized western States, not those little things back east ;)) before needing refueling. Then camp out for the night and continue the next day.
2. Look at that rear belt sprocket. It's freakin' huge. Starting torque is pretty obviously a big drag on the battery, hence the reason for the giant rear sprocket and what appears to be a damned small front sprocket. Top speed in "sport" mode is about 90mph, and in "eco" mode is about 70mph. That appears to be due to the granny-gearing of the final drive.
3. Luggage capacity will further reduce its disappointing range.
4. Angry wasp. Do not like.
Author got himself semi-stranded on the freeway with a low charge, doing 45mph and waving traffic to pass him. Being on a tiny 400lb vehicle and at a 30mph differential with all the traffic around you (and impotent to fix that) is awfully dangerous.
I was initially interested in one of these when I first heard about them. After seeing this review though, I've lost all interest. Unless the range can be increased another 30 miles and the charge time reduced from 7+ hours on a empty-to-full recharge, to an hour or two. And the price brought into parity with bikes of equal power and range.
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As batteries get better these bikes can make sense in urban areas. My neighbor and sometime lawyer went off on a tangent and stayed there. Not satisfied with his Norton museum he built at his farm he then built an electric motorcycle. It got better every year as better batteries became available. Greater problem than batteries, finding controllers that would handle the load and not die in the heat was tough. Put back to its season one streamliner config and de-tuned I'm sure it would greatly better the current claimed 80 mile range.
Local university got involved, really cool adventure in the end.
http://motoelectra.com/ (http://motoelectra.com/)
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Bah! Who wants a coal powered motorcycle?
Turbo diesels have a lot more long term potential than battery operated toys.
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The electric tech is getting better in leaps and bounds, particularly in motorcycles.
It won't be long until you see a pretty decent sub 10k supermoto variant.
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Nice No-ped.
It seems like a Can Am would be a good candidate for something like this...tons of space to put batteries in, without looking too bad.
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For that amount of money, I can buy a new Ural with a sidecar. Those are real babe magnets.......chris3
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I do think it is pretty cool, but the two things I really liked about my 650 BMW GS were 1) ~70 mpg, and the way it sounded. I had to force myself to ride it sometimes, because I wanted to add fresh gas to the tank.
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Bah! Who wants a coal powered motorcycle?
Turbo diesels have a lot more long term potential than battery operated toys.
That's what she said.
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The electric tech is getting better in leaps and bounds, particularly in motorcycles.
Really? I think it might get cheaper, but not significantly better until there is a massive leap in battery tech.
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'Lectric vehicles are tools of devil.
Internal and external combustion is right and proper.
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>Internal and external combustion is right and proper.<
Hmmm... a steam-powered bike...
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Hmmm... a steam rocket-powered bike...
>:D
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Electric vehicles have instantaneous torque.
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As batteries get better these bikes can make sense in urban areas. My neighbor and sometime lawyer went off on a tangent and stayed there. Not satisfied with his Norton museum he built at his farm he then built an electric motorcycle. It got better every year as better batteries became available. Greater problem than batteries, finding controllers that would handle the load and not die in the heat was tough. Put back to its season one streamliner config and de-tuned I'm sure it would greatly better the current claimed 80 mile range.
Local university got involved, really cool adventure in the end.
http://motoelectra.com/
I noticed the bike is fitted with LiPo (Lithium-Polymer) batteries. They make really nasty fires when punctured and are recommended to be charged in fire proof containers.
LiPo's are incredibly light for the amount of power they produce, but they are also quite dangerous. I recon there's nothing quite like having a chemical fire between your legs on the freeway, though.
Poper
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I noticed the bike is fitted with LiPo (Lithium-Polymer) batteries. They make really nasty fires when punctured and are recommended to be charged in fire proof containers.
LiPo's are incredibly light for the amount of power they produce, but they are also quite dangerous. I recon there's nothing quite like having a chemical fire between your legs on the freeway, though.
Poper
Not to defend electric vehicles, but...how's that any different than having a couple gallons of highly combustible gasoline between your legs?
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It's different because gasoline cycles have 100+ year history, and electric ones are new. People are justifiably skeptical of buying the "electric Pinto". Nobody wants to be the learning experience.
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Not to defend electric vehicles, but...how's that any different than having a couple gallons of highly combustible gasoline between your legs?
That was my first thought too.
Although I'll temper the snark with the admission that many people have an instinctive understanding of flammability, even vapor and flashover of volatile hydrocarbon fuels.
Not so much with Lithium.
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Quite a few electric vehicles existed during the infancy of their gasoline counterparts.
How soon we forget...
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/jay-leno/vintage/4215940
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Not to defend electric vehicles, but...how's that any different than having a couple gallons of highly combustible gasoline between your legs?
There is a huge difference. Gasoline is not likely to spontaneously burst into flames.
See this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5_-eBbDE0s
And this: http://rc.runryder.com/helicopter/t519305p1/
And this: https://www.google.com/search?q=li-po+battery+fire&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=PhN7Ua37HsTd2QWwmIHoDA&sqi=2&ved=0CIABELAE&biw=1194&bih=886
These are just a small radio control model lipos. Imagine what a lipo capable of driving a motorcycle would look like if it burned. Think you could get off of it fast enough? Do you have a fireproof room to charge it in?
Just Google "li-po battery fire". Pretty scary stuff. Any puncture or rupture in a lipo will cause it to burn, too.
They don't last forever and can be very temperamental and unpredictable. I have seen a li-po burn because it was discharged too quickly, swelled up and ruptured. Destroyed a $1,200 model in seconds.
With all the above said, it is easy to see why manufacturers are reluctant to expose themselves to the liability Lithium-Polymer batteries pose.
JMHO, of course.
Poper
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They don't call it the bleeding edge for nothing. Bike I linked was experimental in many ways. Screw around with dangerous stuff and eventually the masses get safe usable tech. Like the good old days experimentin with internal combustion when alternative fuels didn't mean some wimpy corn juice, how about some hydrazine and nitromethane that might detonate in the tank? Good times.
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That was my first thought too.
Although I'll temper the snark with the admission that many people have an instinctive understanding of flammability, even vapor and flashover of volatile hydrocarbon fuels.
Not so much with Lithium.
About 10 months ago I put out a fully involved Harleycue. It had a nearly full fuel tank at the start of the fire. All that happened was it popped the cap and burned off. i was able to approach it with only turnout gear on and no SCBA and put it out with a 10lb extinguisher easily. Nothing to it.
One of these fancy lithium batteries? Yeah it would have been a different story...
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Good enough for a Boeing 787... ;)
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I noticed the bike is fitted with LiPo (Lithium-Polymer) batteries. They make really nasty fires when punctured and are recommended to be charged in fire proof containers.
LiPo's are incredibly light for the amount of power they produce, but they are also quite dangerous. I recon there's nothing quite like having a chemical fire between your legs on the freeway, though.
Poper
Not LiPo, Li:FePO4, which, while containing a flammable electrolyte solvent, don't have a thermal runaway problem that plagues Li:Po, as the internal resistance is low enough (which is why they are used in high peak power applications like this ). The overall quantity of electrolyte is small, less than a gallon, divided into many cells, and is no more flammable than gasoline. The fire problem is due more to lithium metal and thermal runaway, and the nano-phosphate cells nearly eliminate the latter, and make the former much safer.
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I would much prefer to have something like a Honda CBR 150, but Honda didn't sell that model in the US. I've seen them in my wife's native country (along with about 15,000 Chinese clones of various brand names that were obviously reverse engineered from the Honda and probably all came out of the same factory). Cute little city bike, looks like a crotch rocket on a diet, probably gets between 150 and 200 miles per gallon.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asiatradingonline.com%2FHondaCBR150export.JPG&hash=ed71162c4cd5e8c24cf3f34e6bf08af291ad27be)
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Honda sells the cbr 250 here
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I noticed the bike is fitted with LiPo (Lithium-Polymer) batteries. They make really nasty fires when punctured and are recommended to be charged in fire proof containers.
LiPo's are incredibly light for the amount of power they produce, but they are also quite dangerous. I recon there's nothing quite like having a chemical fire between your legs on the freeway, though.
Poper
Not LiPo, Li:FePO4, which, while containing a flammable electrolyte solvent, don't have a thermal runaway problem that plagues Li:Po, as the internal resistance is low enough (which is why they are used in high peak power applications like this ). The overall quantity of electrolyte is small, less than a gallon, divided into many cells, and is no more flammable than gasoline. The fire problem is due more to lithium metal and thermal runaway, and the nano-phosphate cells nearly eliminate the latter, and make the former much safer.
I think there may be a little confusion here.
I was responding to: As batteries get better these bikes can make sense in urban areas. My neighbor and sometime lawyer went off on a tangent and stayed there. Not satisfied with his Norton museum he built at his farm he then built an electric motorcycle. It got better every year as better batteries became available. Greater problem than batteries, finding controllers that would handle the load and not die in the heat was tough. Put back to its season one streamliner config and de-tuned I'm sure it would greatly better the current claimed 80 mile range.
Local university got involved, really cool adventure in the end.
http://motoelectra.com/
Posted by French G.
From the Motoelectra.com article: The Moto Electra was originally built in Brian Richardson’s sheep barn in Blue Grass, Virginia. It is powered by an electric motor and lithium-polymer batteries, which results in zero emissions. On average, the street range of the bike is 80 miles.
Therefore my comments regarding Li-Po batteries.
I hope this is helpful clearing that apparent misunderstanding up.
Poper
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Ah, yeah, that clears it up. Thanks! LiPo is BAD for peak load -manned- or expensive apps...yes, they have higher energy density than just about anything else, BUT they are the most fragile/dangerous of the lithium chemistries for secondary batteries.
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Honda sells the cbr 250 here
I didn't know that. Not bad -- 77 MPG with a 3.4 gallon tank, so the range is (realistically) somewhere north of 200 miles. That's not too shabby. How big is the frame? A long time ago I had a CB350 twin. It was a good bike for when I lived in a city, but my 6'-2" frame looked a bit out of proportion when I was riding it.
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I am still a fan of the Suzuki TU250, which takes me back to the UJM of my youth: http://www.suzukicycles.com/Product%20Lines/Cycles/Products/TU250X/2013/TU250X.aspx
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Everybody rags on 250s as being too small, girl's bikes etc. Chances are that 2% of the people that sit on them have a prayer of riding the bike to its limits. Meanwhile they derp along on their 1100s and the tits are still on the side of the tire when it's worn out.
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The older I get the more I appreciate ethe joy of riding a small bike fast
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Everybody rags on 250s as being too small, girl's bikes etc. Chances are that 2% of the people that sit on them have a prayer of riding the bike to its limits.
The way I see it, a 250 goes more than fast enough to kill me if I am not paying attention.
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Everybody rags on 250s as being too small, girl's bikes etc. Chances are that 2% of the people that sit on them have a prayer of riding the bike to its limits. Meanwhile they derp along on their 1100s and the tits are still on the side of the tire when it's worn out.
I'm pretty sure I am not ace enough for my 400, but I still want a bigger bike because of the highway commute. It gets seriously buzzy around 60.
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Meanwhile they derp along on their 1100s and the tits are still on the side of the tire when it's worn out.
Not true. My Shovelhead is a 1200, and the tits are still there because I don't feel like dragging my pegs in the twisties. :P
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I was referring to the sportbike set. I don't really want to see a Harley going that fast in a turn. Except when I'm commuting, warm weather I regularly get stuck behind a chrome procession going through the mountains. Exceptions to every rule, kinda like this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nrMQ3QwyPo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nrMQ3QwyPo)
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I plan to ride The Tail of the Dragon someday, fear not... =D
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I was referring to the sportbike set. I don't really want to see a Harley going that fast in a turn. Except when I'm commuting, warm weather I regularly get stuck behind a chrome procession going through the mountains. Exceptions to every rule, kinda like this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nrMQ3QwyPo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nrMQ3QwyPo)
I am absolutely certain I have never seen a Gold Wing thrown around quite like that.
Anybody ever ride the Bear Tooth Highway in Montana/Wyoming? I crossed it in a Jeep Cherokee -- it would be superlative on a nice 2-wheeler.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeLacUYb-DI
The descent from the top down into Cook City is spectacular:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yf1tP-haMhg
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No thanks Hawk. I've been on that road once, stayed in Cook City some 20 years ago. I wanted a parachute just riding in a car. Look up a ravine and see a 40 year old car wreck because no one can recover it.