Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: brimic on August 16, 2013, 11:19:50 AM
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http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/08/15/is-everybody-blind-city-council-meeting-erupts-in-applause-after-ex-marine-issues-dire-warning-about-u-s-building-a-domestic-army/
I know that we have naysayers here who claim that 'it could never happen here' or 'its just police getting surplus gear' or 'we're fighting trrrists!!!!1111', but the mounting evidence is getting to be a big white elephant in the room that is getting difficult to ignore.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQdzt4NuDc8
rofl [popcorn]
lots here
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I am concerned with the increasing weapons strength and militaryesque tactics of America's police forces.
That said, this is a frequent topic of conversation among my comrades and I in the *actual* Army. Due to my position in the Reserves I get to train with the tactical portions of my local law enforcement, so I mean it when I say the following:
If America's cops think they can go full retard and get all gestapo on Americans then will find out the glaring difference between going tactical on some sleeping drug dealers and fighting an *actual* militarized force.
That said, let's all pray it never comes to that.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQdzt4NuDc8
rofl [popcorn]
lots here
Not sure what this has to do with the OP story, or the quoted text at the URL from the Concord police dept stating they needed the Bearcats because of groups like the Free State project (or even Occupy for that matter)?
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I like the comment " there is always free cheese in the mouse trap." I hadn't heard that one before.
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Where have I seen this before....Oh, Yeah !!
http://www.amazon.com/Ordinary-Men-Reserve-Battalion-Solution/dp/0060995068/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1376701527&sr=8-1&keywords=ordinary+men+reserve+police+battalion+101+and+the+final+solution+in+poland
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Scout, that is one of the most chilling books I have ever read.
People, if you have any belief that "it can't happen here- read this book. And be prepared to give up any faith in humanity.
This is the only book I have ever come across that recounts the deportation and execution of the Polish Jews-
From the viewpoint of the front line killers.
Not hardened SS monsters, not hard core Nazi's, just a bunch of ordinary men , blue collar workers mostly, in the police reserves.
They did not LIKE blowing out the brains of 7 year old little girls with a Mauser from 5 feet away, mind you.
They did not LIKE it- but they DID it, and they GOT USED TO IT.
You know the big difference between them, and us? This country has a lot more people who WOULD like to shoot a bunch of white conservatives.
I can't help but think that a hell of a lot of alphabet agency hires have damn little regard for what we would call"traditional American values."
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Scout, that is one of the most chilling books I have ever read.
People, if you have any belief that "it can't happen here- read this book. And be prepared to give up any faith in humanity.
This is the only book I have ever come across that recounts the deportation and execution of the Polish Jews-
From the viewpoint of the front line killers.
Not hardened SS monsters, not hard core Nazi's, just a bunch of ordinary men , blue collar workers mostly, in the police reserves.
They did not LIKE blowing out the brains of 7 year old little girls with a Mauser from 5 feet away, mind you.
They did not LIKE it- but they DID it, and they GOT USED TO IT.
You know the big difference between them, and us? This country has a lot more people who WOULD like to shoot a bunch of white conservatives.
I can't help but think that a hell of a lot of alphabet agency hires have damn little regard for what we would call"traditional American values."
The big difference is, the distribution of firearms in this country. I'm not yelling "WOLVERINES!" or anything, but that scenario can not play out in this country.
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The big difference is, the distribution of firearms in this country. I'm not yelling "WOLVERINES!" or anything, but that scenario can not play out in this country.
Really?
:cough: New Orleans
:cough, cough: Watertown, MA
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The big difference is, the distribution of firearms in this country. I'm not yelling "WOLVERINES!" or anything, but that scenario can not play out in this country.
I'd say the big difference here is the distribution of citizens in the military that would say hell no. I'm lifelong government and the big decision is to desert quietly and re-form on the other side or take a few of the willing oppressors out directly. Taken the oath of enlistment 6 times, believe it.
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Folks on here have been warning of this for years. We always get accused of cop bashing or conspiracy nuts. Nothing to see here. Move along
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Scout, that is one of the most chilling books I have ever read.
People, if you have any belief that "it can't happen here- read this book. And be prepared to give up any faith in humanity.
This is the only book I have ever come across that recounts the deportation and execution of the Polish Jews-
From the viewpoint of the front line killers.
Not hardened SS monsters, not hard core Nazi's, just a bunch of ordinary men , blue collar workers mostly, in the police reserves.
They did not LIKE blowing out the brains of 7 year old little girls with a Mauser from 5 feet away, mind you.
They did not LIKE it- but they DID it, and they GOT USED TO IT.
You know the big difference between them, and us? This country has a lot more people who WOULD like to shoot a bunch of white conservatives.
I can't help but think that a hell of a lot of alphabet agency hires have damn little regard for what we would call"traditional American values."
"Hitler's Willing Executioners" is another.
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Really?
:cough: New Orleans
:cough, cough: Watertown, MA
I'd hardly equate the worst of what went on in the aftermath of Katrina to the systematic execution of children as described earlier in this thread. There's a difference between lightning and lightning bugs. Yeah, really.
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The big difference is, the distribution of firearms in this country. I'm not yelling "WOLVERINES!" or anything, but that scenario can not play out in this country.
What really bothers me is what they did in Watertown Mass.
Cordon off streets.
Door to door in full ninja gear.
Armored vehicles with a machinegunner doing overwatch.
The guns that we have are useless in such a situation.
One guy with a deer rifle might take one or two out before being lit up, more likely he'll be lit up before he gets a second shot off.
Anything short of organizing local militias to deal with such a threat is going to come up way short in defending against this sort of thing.
We have lots of guns in this country, but unless people band together and use sound tactics together, we are going to get rolled by any organized threat to liberty.
Of course talking about such things on the internetz automatically gets me bumped up a level on the NSA lists.
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What really bothers me is what they did in Watertown Mass.
Cordon off streets.
Door to door in full ninja gear.
Armored vehicles with a machinegunner doing overwatch.
The guns that we have are useless in such a situation.
One guy with a deer rifle might take one or two out before being lit up, more likely he'll be lit up before he gets a second shot off.
Anything short of organizing local militias to deal with such a threat is going to come up way short in defending against this sort of thing.
We have lots of guns in this country, but unless people band together and use sound tactics together, we are going to get rolled by any organized threat to liberty.
Of course talking about such things on the internetz automatically gets me bumped up a level on the NSA lists.
I've said the same, and it hasn't been received well by some parties.
Even if gun owners outnumber cops, etc., it is too easy for them to be taken individually or in small groups.
Attrition might make the difference, if there is a great enough difference in the numbers.
We will not go quietly into the night.
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If a bunch of morons in Iraq and Afghanistan that have no access to the officers (or their homes/families) can wage a guerrilla war, then I'd imagine that the better armed better trained better supplied people in America who know who the cops are and where they live and where they get groceries and where their kids goto school could probably do a darn bit more damage. If they had the will.
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Excellent article. Spot on about this.
http://www.policestateusa.com/archives/144
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I'd say the big difference here is the distribution of citizens in the military that would say hell no. I'm lifelong government and the big decision is to desert quietly and re-form on the other side or take a few of the willing oppressors out directly. Taken the oath of enlistment 6 times, believe it.
You'll never see a triggering scenario where you or anyone else would switch sides. It will be handled one domestic terrorist, or one neo-nazi group, or one reportedly child porn ring at a time. Most will go down without making the news. The few that shoot back enough to make the news will simply be labeled as terrorists and you'll support the government and praise them for stopping the terrorist threat.
Picked off one at a time, most will simply surrender. When an idiot shoots back they will be squashed with overwhelming militarized police strength. The police will truly believe they're saving the world from really bad guys. The news casters will believe it. And we'll believe it.
Look how many people here today will defend the government's actions at Ruby Ridge, Waco, Miami, or even whatever they are doing wherever they are doing it today.
If you're one of those who catches on to what's happening then you'll simply be the next terrorist.
THe point? There isn't going to be Revolution #2. It's not happening. Ever. If you want to change things, do it at the polls. As discussed in another thread, start with the city council and state legislators. As long as we spend our time here on the Internet instead of printing pamphlets and knocking on the doors of our neighbors, we aren't going to change anything.
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You'll never see a triggering scenario where you or anyone else would switch sides. It will be handled one domestic terrorist, or one neo-nazi group, or one reportedly child porn ring at a time. Most will go down without making the news. The few that shoot back enough to make the news will simply be labeled as terrorists...
I'm thinking we've already been seeing that for quite a while now.
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What really bothers me is what they did in Watertown Mass.
Cordon off streets.
Door to door in full ninja gear.
Armored vehicles with a machinegunner doing overwatch.
The guns that we have are useless in such a situation.
One guy with a deer rifle might take one or two out before being lit up, more likely he'll be lit up before he gets a second shot off.
Anything short of organizing local militias to deal with such a threat is going to come up way short in defending against this sort of thing. We have lots of guns in this country, but unless people band together and use sound tactics together, we are going to get rolled by any organized threat to liberty.
Of course talking about such things on the internetz automatically gets me bumped up a level on the NSA lists.
Which is WHY we need them. IMO they will form in response to a sufficient number of Watertowns, Wacos, Ruby Ridges, etc.
You'll never see a triggering scenario where you or anyone else would switch sides. It will be handled one domestic terrorist, or one neo-nazi group, or one reportedly child porn ring at a time. Most will go down without making the news. The few that shoot back enough to make the news will simply be labeled as terrorists and you'll support the government and praise them for stopping the terrorist threat.
Picked off one at a time, most will simply surrender. When an idiot shoots back they will be squashed with overwhelming militarized police strength. The police will truly believe they're saving the world from really bad guys. The news casters will believe it. And we'll believe it.
Look how many people here today will defend the government's actions at Ruby Ridge, Waco, Miami, or even whatever they are doing wherever they are doing it today.
If you're one of those who catches on to what's happening then you'll simply be the next terrorist.
THe point? There isn't going to be Revolution #2. It's not happening. Ever. If you want to change things, do it at the polls. As discussed in another thread, start with the city council and state legislators. As long as we spend our time here on the Internet instead of printing pamphlets and knocking on the doors of our neighbors, we aren't going to change anything.
I agree that the polls would be a far better place to effect the change we want, and need. But an armed revolt could work. In a country the size of America that very size would work to the advantage of the revolutionaries. They could hide amongst the populace. There's a lot of open area they could also use to thir benefit.
And really, the fact is there ARE NOT enough police. If the government really wanted to quash a real revolution they'd have to bring in the military. Then they'd have to hope the military would be willing to fight for an unconstitutional purpose.
I doubt they would myself, atleast in large numbers. Keep in mind that they WOULD IMO fight for a constitutional, rightful purpose -- but if they are doing that then it is the revolutionaries who are in the wrong -- and that is directly on our ("We, the People")'s heads.
Such as in Egypt. I don't think anyone likes coups run by the army that force out an elected leader. But Morrisey was an ineffectual lout. And face it the Muslim Brotherhood are NOT choir boys, boy scouts, or in any way remindful of something like George Washington's Continental Army. We ...or atleast I don't sympathize with the Muslim Brotherhood. That doesn't mean I like the army operating a coup and driving an elected leader from office. Sometimes there are NO good guys and no good answers. Or maybe we here just don't have them; I know I have no answers for Egypt's problems, they better fix them themselves, so far as I'm cocnerned.
We'd have to become somthing more than a country of couch potatos and sheep to do something, though, if it does come to that. One thing I will say about the Muslim Brotherhood is that even though their goals are contrary to what I approve of and likely very bad for the mideast as well, they are NOT couch potatoes. They are active. They fight. That's something. They've got the "fire in their bellies."
Do we?
The revolutionaries would have to fight smart, and be wily. This would be easier against the police and difficult to impossible against trained military. Bring in air power and specops and it gets worse for the revolutionaries.
But then everyone likes to point out the NVA in Vietnam also prevailed against a better armed American Army.
They won. We lost.
Not really; we actually won all the major ground battles. We lost politically --- and we did that at home.
The political battle is gonna be a real toughie.
If the revolutionaries are to have a chance then keeping in mind something Machiavelli pointed out in his book Arte della Guerra, "The Art of War"; "Those who take up war as a profession cannot be other than vicious," would be well advised.
In 1776 we fought and ousted the British by force of arms. Only afterwards did we set out to put together a country, and we got it wrong the first time. The Articles of Confederation didn't work, but the Constitution did work. We have that knowledge to guide us now.
But if we devolve to the point where we are forced to fight for it it must needs to be done with incredible viciousness.
And that brings me back to the earlier point; it is one reason why we need to start at the polls. Politics ain't pretty but it has the advantage of leaving it's participants in a condition to fight on even after a defeat at the polls.
And that's just my two cents..... :angel:
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Which is WHY we need them. IMO they will form in response to a sufficient number of Watertowns, Wacos, Ruby Ridges, etc.
Which is exactly why .gov has been working so hard over the last 2 decades to vilify them.
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But Morrisey was an ineffectual lout.
Best misspell ever! :rofl: But yeah Morrissey is a mommy parts. Morsi too.
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Best misspell ever! :rofl: But yeah Morrissey is a tawt. Morsi too.
OK. Everytime I hear a newsperson pronounce that name it sounds like "Morrisey." So I forget it is NOT an English name and I put M-o-r-r-i-s-e-y rather than Morsi. My error. But I really wasn't paying THAT close attention...to be blunt the creep DESERVES to have his name mispelled anyway! >:D
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OK. Everytime I hear a newsperson pronounce that name it sounds like "Morrisey." So I forget it is NOT an English name and I put M-o-r-r-i-s-e-y rather than Morsi. My error. But I really wasn't paying THAT close attention...to be blunt the creep DESERVES to have his name mispelled anyway! >:D
I know nothing about Egyptian and don't listen to the news, but in Gaelic there is usually an implied "uh" vowel between two consonants in a word. For instance "Alba" (Gaelic word for Scotland) is pronounced "Al-uh-pah".
FWIW
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I'm thinking we've already been seeing that for quite a while now.
You're right, of course but French G. hasn't switched sides. It's not his fault, he'd be on his own and hung out to dry. But that's my point. Short of something that creates a mass exodus of military and police to support the Constitution you'll never see any of them jump for that. You may see the occasional police or military person who wacked out and went on a domestic terrorism spree until we were saved by the government.
Which is WHY we need them. IMO they will form in response to a sufficient number of Watertowns, Wacos, Ruby Ridges, etc.
I agree that the polls would be a far better place to effect the change we want, and need. But an armed revolt could work.
I've never said it couldn't work - theoretically and militarily. I'm just saying it will never happen and if it is ever attempted it won't work - not in our lifetimes and likely our children's lifetimes.
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Best misspell ever! :rofl: But yeah Morrissey is a tawt. Morsi too.
:rofl:
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As much as this kind of thing may be happening in the big metro areas, I don't see it happening in the rural areas, the areas where the deputies are also farmers, where the judges are elected by people who value their rights. In the county I work in, , membership in the NRA is still viewed as a positive in an election. And this is less than 60 miles out of Columbus, where the gun grabbing Michael Colemann holds claim tonthe mayor's office with no real challenge.
Bottom line is that much of what they may pull in the big cities ain't gonna happen so easy in mid and small sized cities, and this country is large enough that they cannot control it all real easily. I'm not too worried. Yet.
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Bottom line is that much of what they may pull in the big cities ain't gonna happen so easy in mid and small sized cities, and this country is large enough that they cannot control it all real easily. I'm not too worried. Yet.
If it were to come to that...once the population centers are under control the mid-size and small towns won't be too hard to take control of. There are always plenty of petty, wanna-be tyrants and sociopathic wanna-be gestapp types that can be propped up to run the show. For every would be insurgent there will be 3-4 collaborators willing to sell their soul for a few perks. One at a time and by small groups is how "they" will take out any resistance in the rural areas. If it were to come to such a nightmare I alo don't think "they" wold be too worried about political fallout from collateral damage/casualties
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Very easy to hammer the "nails that stand up" with the NSA database. That is what it was designed for.
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As much as this kind of thing may be happening in the big metro areas, I don't see it happening in the rural areas, the areas where the deputies are also farmers, where the judges are elected by people who value their rights.
And the hardest places to take discreetly. You try to go door to door around here, it's slow enough that word will get out, (even assuming the sheriff and/or DA isn't the biggest news source, as both are far more conservative than average) and there will be effective resistance after the first few houses.
Hard to mine a driveway in the city, or maintain very good sniper coverage when the end of the driveway is less than 70 yards from the farthest point on the property. A quarter mile of dirt driveway with either open fields for no cover or brush too dense to move through without a dozer on either side is a lot more defensible.
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Very easy to hammer the "nails that stand up" with the NSA database. That is what it was designed for.
Hard to mine a driveway in the city, or maintain very good sniper coverage when the end of the driveway is less than 70 yards from the farthest point on the property. A quarter mile of dirt driveway with either open fields for no cover or brush too dense to move through without a dozer on either side is a lot more defensible
Its much easier to identify 'problem children' and grab them on the way to the grocery store, when they are out for a walk/jog, or on their way home from work.
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If it were to come to that...once the population centers are under control the mid-size and small towns won't be too hard to take control of. There are always plenty of petty, wanna-be tyrants and sociopathic wanna-be gestapp types that can be propped up to run the show. For every would be insurgent there will be 3-4 collaborators willing to sell their soul for a few perks. One at a time and by small groups is how "they" will take out any resistance in the rural areas. If it were to come to such a nightmare I alo don't think "they" wold be too worried about political fallout from collateral damage/casualties
If it got that bad, anything we're talking about around here won't matter for a hill of beans, because all of those UN Concentration Camps you can read about on-line will be filled with many of us, if not the graveyards.
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Its much easier to identify 'problem children' and grab them on the way to the grocery store, when they are out for a walk/jog, or on their way home from work.
Yet instead of doing that they always seem to send a tactical force to the house, which "accidentally" catches on fire via tear gas.
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As much as this kind of thing may be happening in the big metro areas, I don't see it happening in the rural areas, the areas where the deputies are also farmers, where the judges are elected by people who value their rights. In the county I work in, , membership in the NRA is still viewed as a positive in an election. And this is less than 60 miles out of Columbus, where the gun grabbing Michael Colemann holds claim tonthe mayor's office with no real challenge.
Bottom line is that much of what they may pull in the big cities ain't gonna happen so easy in mid and small sized cities, and this country is large enough that they cannot control it all real easily. I'm not too worried. Yet.
I'm not so sure ... I used to think the county sheriff/deputies were okay even if mostly incompetent.
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The government is playing the long game.
The vast majority of liberty loving folks will be gone by attrition within a couple generations.
By then the new concept of liberty will have completely supplanted the historic meaning of liberty and there will be nobody that will want to revolt.
Housed, fed and healthcared with 24/7 entertainment is not a cause for revolution.
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The government is playing the long game.
The vast majority of liberty loving folks will be gone by attrition within a couple generations.
By then the new concept of liberty will have completely supplanted the historic meaning of liberty and there will be nobody that will want to revolt.
Housed, fed and healthcared with 24/7 entertainment is not a cause for revolution.
Not with a bang but a whimper.
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You're right, of course but French G. hasn't switched sides. It's not his fault, he'd be on his own and hung out to dry. But that's my point. Short of something that creates a mass exodus of military and police to support the Constitution you'll never see any of them jump for that. You may see the occasional police or military person who wacked out and went on a domestic terrorism spree until we were saved by the government.
I've never said it couldn't work - theoretically and militarily. I'm just saying it will never happen and if it is ever attempted it won't work - not in our lifetimes and likely our children's lifetimes.
Wait, couldn't work or won't work? ??? Make up your mindf!! :facepalm:
To address the question as directly as possible, I am not claiming it's a cinch, or will be EASY. It won't.
Most revolutions don't turn out so well. Look how Egypt is turning out. You have the military shooting people, some of whom aren't armed some who are, you have M.B. thugs breaking into buildings and taking over and into museums and damaging if not destroying Pharonic artifacts of priceless antquity that cannot be replaced. There seem to be no good guys.
In America you'd be up against , first, the police and other LEO at local and state & federal level. These guys usually you'd want to support but they would now be enforcing evil unConstitutional laws. I think that would actually be the easy part if you could get over the idea.
The US military would be the tough problem. They're the ones with tanks and arty and air power. There's ways around that and there's ways of dealing with it (usually things like tank traps and running away and dispersing forces) but it would still be hell and be very very costly.
There's no guarantee of winning of course. But would you prefer to go down without atleast a fight?
I can't make the choice for anyone but myself.
Those who decide to fight ought to consider themselves dead because there's going to be a really good chance they will be....and if they live and if they win, well, there's some icing on a bitter cake.
Will it happen? A separate question.
ANSWER:
I don't know. You don't know.
I hope NOT because I want a PEACEFUL RESOLUTION.
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Until the various small groups coalesce into one larger group (as the Loyal Nine, Boston Caucus Club and others did into the Sons of Liberty), we're going to remain fractured and splintered. If took many years and an tone deaf British government to do enough to finally piss off enough people to make them shoot back and shoot back all at the same time. Taking the opposition down in onesies and twosies is the easier way to defeat the enemy. All while providing the remainder bread and circuses so they keep their eye off the ball. All you have to do is look at the Obama worship still going on despite the fact that all he's done is make everything worse.
When you buy off a large percentage of the population, you will stay in power. They don't care as long as they are still on the gravy train. When that ends though, look out.
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When you buy off a large percentage of the population, you will stay in power. They don't care as long as they are still on the gravy train. When that ends though, look out.
I wonder what would happen if the right/libertarians went against their normal nature and used the cloward-piven strategy to end the gravy train?
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Wait, couldn't work or won't work? ??? Make up your mindf!! :facepalm:
Not couldn't work. Not won't work. Won't happen. And if it does, I'm fighting on the side of the government... which ought not have anyone shaking in their boots. But nothing in the Constitution allows an overthrow of the government so if you follow the wisdom of the Declaration of Independence that does recommend the occasional overthrow, you would have to put in a new government and a new Constitution. And there's not a person on earth today who I trust to do that as well as what was done in 1789.
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I wonder what would happen if the right/libertarians went against their normal nature and used the cloward-piven strategy to end the gravy train?
The right would do it how they did it in 2007/2008 and guarantee the salaries of the wealthy criminals and forget that the poor were even in the equation.
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Not couldn't work. Not won't work. Won't happen. And if it does, I'm fighting on the side of the government... which ought not have anyone shaking in their boots. But nothing in the Constitution allows an overthrow of the government so if you follow the wisdom of the Declaration of Independence that does recommend the occasional overthrow, you would have to put in a new government and a new Constitution. And there's not a person on earth today who I trust to do that as well as what was done in 1789.
I won't be shaking in my boots ... but I am perplexed by your attitude.
OTOH I am glad you think it WON'T happen. I guess it makes choosing sides easier. :angel:
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I don't know why my attitude is perplexing. I love my country and the Constitution upon which it is founded. If the government is ever overthrown then it will not be the country I love, it will be some 21st century revolutionary's view of a country. There's no way to get from the Constitution of 1789 to something begotten by revolution without throwing out what was done in 1789. Personally, I don't think that would go well for us.
What we need to do is to require our government to follow the 1789 version.
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Well, as they say, "I love my country but I don't trust my government."
If the "government" is overthrown will it be a government you respect or one you despise?
..... There's no way to get from the Constitution of 1789 to something begotten by revolution without throwing out what was done in 1789. Personally, I don't think that would go well for us.
I have to disagree with that. I won't arbitrarily state that a revolution will not emplace some worse, sicker or more perverted authority but OTOH one needs to keep in mind what the insurgents would be fighting for. I don't think they would try to attempt to return us to the freedoms as outlined in the Constitution without atleast using that as a template. Even that wouldn't really be necessary; there is enough written about the document by its creators to know what they meant. We could simply readopt the original document with its original meaning....maybe even better spelled out, ie., no more debating whether the second amendment is a "collective right" or an individual right, and a solid definition of "infringed."
"I don't think that would go well for us." Well, I would venture the guess you or a precursor might have said that as George Washington was raising his Continental Army. It's just pure unabashed pessimism.
Of course a revolution could go sideways.
Would you prefer utter tyranny?
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Levant is a puzzling fellow. He often contradicts himself between threads
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Levant is a puzzling fellow. He often contradicts himself between threads
How so? Across all threads and across all forums, I have always taken this stand. In case of armed revolution, I stand with the United States of America.
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How so? Across all threads and across all forums, I have always taken this stand. In case of armed revolution, I stand with the United States of America.
That's not a "stand," that's rationalizing a "cop-out." :O
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How so? Across all threads and across all forums, I have always taken this stand. In case of armed revolution, I stand with the United States of America.
To constantly decry the infringement of our freedoms, the statism that is encroaching upon us, the abuses (both real and imagined by you), the militarization of the police, blah blah blah, then to say you'd stand with the gov when it finally comes crashing down is hypocritical and cowardly.
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Well, as they say, "I love my country but I don't trust my government."
If the "government" is overthrown will it be a government you respect or one you despise?
I have to disagree with that. I won't arbitrarily state that a revolution will not emplace some worse, sicker or more perverted authority but OTOH one needs to keep in mind what the insurgents would be fighting for. I don't think they would try to attempt to return us to the freedoms as outlined in the Constitution without atleast using that as a template. Even that wouldn't really be necessary; there is enough written about the document by its creators to know what they meant. We could simply readopt the original document with its original meaning....maybe even better spelled out, ie., no more debating whether the second amendment is a "collective right" or an individual right, and a solid definition of "infringed."
"I don't think that would go well for us." Well, I would venture the guess you or a precursor might have said that as George Washington was raising his Continental Army. It's just pure unabashed pessimism.
Of course a revolution could go sideways.
Would you prefer utter tyranny?
If they use the Constitution as a template, they still have to create a new Constitution. If they reinstate the existing Constitution, it is a new Constitution. Under what authority would some revolutionary group institute a new Constitution? The existing Constitution had to be ratified by the Continental Congress and then by all of the states. Who in the states will do the approvals?
Constitutional conservatives and libertarians are the minority in the United States. They would not control any new Constitution. We would not get more protections, we would get less protections.
And how would a new Constitution do better than the existing one? It didn't take a handful of years before Congress and even Founding Fathers began to violate the Constitution. Now we live in a time where all three branches of government, and all levels of government from the top of the federal government to local town council impose their will on us or the will of their donors on us. How would this not happen with a new constitution.
The solution is to vote out all of the incumbents, anybody, anywhere, and replace government with people who will uphold their oath. Replace two or three generations straight until those elected understand that it is we, the people, for whom they work and not they, the lobbyist. I've heard it said, even on these forums, by supposed conservatives that hate the work Congress is doing that they agree Congress should be thrown out but that they aren't willing to vote against their 20+ year congressperson because of the pork they get good they do their district based on their seniority.
If you want changed government, then change government. Don't overthrow it.
To constantly decry the infringement of our freedoms, the statism that is encroaching upon us, the abuses (both real and imagined by you), the militarization of the police, blah blah blah, then to say you'd stand with the gov when it finally comes crashing down is hypocritical and cowardly.
Seriously? Hypocritical and cowardly? Don't you think that's a bit over the top? You still get to vote. How many doors did you knock on in the last presidential election? How many doors did you knock on in the last city council or mayor election? In the nearby town (I live in the county) mayor election last time I was against one candidate and for another. I knocked on doors, spoke to everyone I could, donated the maximum cash to the candidate I supported. What did you do?
The hypocritical and cowardly thing is to whine on the Internet and talk about revolution when we haven't done a thing to change even our local government. We prefer to spend our time watching ESPN.
I do decry the things government does wrong. I dislike what they do as much or more than anyone I know - probably more than you or most here. I've posted often that anything the government does outside of the authority of the Constitution is done by them as people and not government. It is not possible for the government to operate outside of the Constitution. I would love to see those people held accountable for what they have done. Put in a Congress that will impeach the courts and the president. High crimes or treason. Lying to Congress is a high crime. Violating the rights of others under color of law is a high crime. selling or giving arms to our enemies in time of war, in Mexico or Egypt or Syria, is a high crime.
There is plenty of authority and power already to change the government within the Constitution. As long as you have a vote and can support a candidate then you can change government if you truly wish. When those who are in our government throw declare that the Constitution no longer governs us, or they eliminate the vote or the ability to campaign for a candidate and it is upheld by the Supreme Court then the power is within us. When those things change, and government has abdicated, then, and only then, would I support creating a new government instituting our existing Constitution. Whether I would support any other proposed constitution would depend on what it is when I see it.
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That's not a "stand," that's rationalizing a "cop-out." :O
No, the copout is to talk about revolution and do nothing - nothing to change things within the Constitution and nothing about starting a revolution. Nothing except whine. That's a copout.
I didn't copout. I said I would take up my arms against a revolution not whine about a revolution. That's a stand. Hopefully I never have to prove my commitment to my stand.
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Seriously? Hypocritical and cowardly? Don't you think that's a bit over the top? You still get to vote. How many doors did you knock on in the last presidential election? How many doors did you knock on in the last city council or mayor election? In the nearby town (I live in the county) mayor election last time I was against one candidate and for another. I knocked on doors, spoke to everyone I could, donated the maximum cash to the candidate I supported. What did you do?
You really believe that your vote still counts don't you? Elections inside the margin of fraud will dominate the landscape. In 2020, gerrymandering will ensure that the DNC will control this country for a long long time.
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You know nothing about my political activities.
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You know nothing about my political activities.
Educate us.
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You really believe that your vote still counts don't you? Elections inside the margin of fraud will dominate the landscape. In 2020, gerrymandering will ensure that the DNC will control this country for a long long time.
If it doesn't count nationally then I need to change things locally until it does. Are you involved in your local county Republican Party? In rural counties getting significant influence is not difficult. In Oklahoma in the last election, the state party squashed our local party and denied our delegates. We could either whine about our votes not counting or we could start communicating with other rural counties and build a coalition to go back against the state next time.
If you truly believe your vote doesn't count and that there's nothing you can do to make it count, you have some real hard choices to make but to expect me to make choices you won't make for yourself, and I still believe we can fix it, that would be the hypocritical, cowardly, copout - not accusing anyone of being a coward or hypocrite; we're only discussing what we believe, rather than accusing, right?
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I guess we all need to get new guns. I never planned on buying a .357 SIG but I want to be prepared for the government surplus ammunition when this is all over.
But what does TSA need 9500 rounds a day for training? It may not be that much if they are doing a lot of training and, if they are, I would prefer that their agents be well trained.
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=b05fbc23d218ed979d1631a8c62f4b70&tab=core&_cview=0
And how did they get suckered into that when police and government all over the country are already using 9mm or .40. I'm not hearing much about the .357 SIG these days - though I do have a box that I bought accidentally at Walmart many years ago.
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No, the copout is to talk about revolution and do nothing - nothing to change things within the Constitution and nothing about starting a revolution. Nothing except whine. That's a copout.
I didn't copout. I said I would take up my arms against a revolution not whine about a revolution. That's a stand. Hopefully I never have to prove my commitment to my stand.
Wow. There's something wrong with discussing revolution but doing nothing? Did it occur to you that we ought not be doing anything because it ISN'T TIME? There's a LOT of stupid things we could do en route to trying to get back the freedoms the nation's founders established and precipitating a revolution before its time is one of the dumber things I can think of.
It simply isn't time now. We still have the ballot box and media and both ought to be used to to their limit before we resort to violence. Violence ought to be the LAST resort.
..."I said I would take up my arms against a revolution not whine about a revolution. That's a stand. Hopefully I never have to prove my commitment to my stand."
Sad to say I imagine, then, that you would be on the .gov side of the shooting. Sorry to hear that. It's a stand all right, I grant you that.
BTW; do you own a swastika armband?
[tinfoil]
Just asking..........
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I'd say the big difference here is the distribution of citizens in the military that would say hell no. I'm lifelong government and the big decision is to desert quietly and re-form on the other side or take a few of the willing oppressors out directly. Taken the oath of enlistment 6 times, believe it.
I figured the same but We've seen it before in germany. I hate to say it but a lot of my fellow enlisted buddies aren't the sharpest nor are they the type to have an opinion of their own. I see the group mentality of highschool all too apparent amongst us. The germans did have a resistance but they found a way to control enough to damn near take out the north eastern hemishpere.
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Wow. There's something wrong with discussing revolution but doing nothing? Did it occur to you that we ought not be doing anything because it ISN'T TIME? There's a LOT of stupid things we could do en route to trying to get back the freedoms the nation's founders established and precipitating a revolution before its time is one of the dumber things I can think of.
It simply isn't time now. We still have the ballot box and media and both ought to be used to to their limit before we resort to violence. Violence ought to be the LAST resort.
..."I said I would take up my arms against a revolution not whine about a revolution. That's a stand. Hopefully I never have to prove my commitment to my stand."
Sad to say I imagine, then, that you would be on the .gov side of the shooting. Sorry to hear that. It's a stand all right, I grant you that.
You're saying it is the thing to do but just not the time? yeah, there's something wrong with that. To discuss that revolution is a tool in our bags is one thing. To talk about doing it when the time is right is another.
You're probably right that there are a lot of stupid things that could be done en route to getting our freedoms back. But instead of doing stupid things, like talking about revolution, why not do smart things? For some reason, perhaps because you're focused on the stupid things (your words so not an attack), you didn't mention doing the smart things. How about we do a lot of very smart things en route to getting our freedoms back?
It simply isn't time now. We still have the ballot box and media and both ought to be used to to their limit before we resort to violence. Violence ought to be the LAST resort.
Isn't that what I said?
BTW; do you own a swastika armband?
[tinfoil]
Just asking..........
Seriously? Calling me a Nazi? Me? And and all of those who fought to defend the Constitution before me? All of the Founders of our nation? All of the military who died in all the wars that have been fought to defend it? Are they all Nazis, too? Because I only took a stand to do the very thing for which all of those who died took a stand with their lives.
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And we have Godwin's law which ends the thread.