Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Balog on October 24, 2013, 01:04:47 PM
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For general purpose hunting (elk/moose/bear/longer range deer etc) as well as long range shooting, which would you go with and why? .300 is more versatile in terms of projectile weight and has more common brass, 7mm is generally regarded as lighter kicking. Thoughts?
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Lighter kicking means a great deal to me unless you have a good muzzle break.
I assume since you mention these calibers that you aren't talking about 100 yard shooting.
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Both of them have recoil greater than a .30-06. Neither is for an inexperienced medium bore rifle shooter.
I shoot a 7.5# Model 70 in .300 WM. SomBitch kicks like a mule but I killed a pronghorn with it at 429 yards and 317 yards.
I like the 300wm because of the heavier bullet options over the 7mm. I currently shoot 165g Hornady sst at 3100 fps, but I'm probably going to change to 180g Barnes TSX BT because I'll start drawing elk tags as soon as next fall.
If I had to do it all over again, I'd still take the 300 over the 7mm just because of the versatileness of the .308 bullet.
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Define "long range."
If you really want to get into long range shooting, meaning out to 1500 yards or so, 7mmRM when loaded with VLD projectiles, has damned near identical velocity and BC to .338 Lapua offerings. Very cost effective training platform to learn to shoot 4-digit distances prior to buying a tacktikul snyper or hard target interdiction rifle. I've heard that Secret Service uses 7mmRM for overwatch.
500 yards, it won't matter much.
As a hunting gun, I'd rather have the mass and frontal surface area available in the projectile that the .30 caliber offers.
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Also moose and bear are not normally shot at long ranges.
Moose due to the thick habitat they live in, and black bears for much of the same reason. Nothing says you can't spot and stalk and shoot one in a clearing on the other ridge.
I'm going to assume you aren't hunting grizz since there is no open season in the lower 48. Grizz is sometimes shot from longer distances in open river bottoms in Alaska.
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Assuming you're using appropriate loads, I doubt that any animal you hunt will be able to tell the difference between being hit by a .300 Win Mag or a 7mm Rem mag . . .
Or, for that matter, a .30/06. All are fine cartridges and suitable for the game you mention.
The 7 shoots a little faster and flatter than an '06, but with a smaller bullet - and the heaviest commonly available slug is 175 grains.
The .300 is like shooting a .30/06 from around 150 yards (give or take) closer to your target; same bullets, roughly 7 - 10% more velocity. Bullet weights up to 220 grains are commonly available.
If the .300 and 7mm were my choices, I'd go with the .300 for its versatility and the availability of both heavier hunting bullets and greater variety of match bullets.
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Neither.
...7mm is generally regarded as lighter kicking. Thoughts?
Yeah, kinda like Sugar Ray Leonard punches a little lighter than Mike Tyson. It really doesn't matter because it's going to hurt like hell either way. :rofl:
On the serious side, .300 and 7mm Mag are great calibers and you won't go wrong with either. Just understand that both are bruisers. A little on the stiff side for a GP gun, IMO, and cartridges are expensive compared to something more mundane like a .308 or .30-06. For a GP rifle I personally don't think you get enough additional performance out of a 300 mag versus a hot .30-06 to justify the added expense or sore shoulder. Until you start stepping out way past most hunting distances, or need an absolutely reliable one-shot kill for critters who might just turn around and eat you if only wounded, I'd recommend getting something that whacks you a little less and is a lot cheaper to feed.
As has been mentioned, under 500 yards the ballistic differences are negligible in the real world. When you have two cartridges so closely matched, playing with bullet weights and powder charges can make more difference than any inherent property of the caliber.
Brad
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Why the affliction of Magnumitis?
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Why the affliction of Magnumitis?
^^ This also, if I may contribute to APS thread veer.
My inclination, if I ever get to hunt anything larger than Arizona elk, is to go to a larger diameter projectile if presented with moose/buffalo/griz or big african game. I've heard that stepping up to .270-.300 caliber magnums results in a lot of bloodshot meat and shattered bone. The larger diameter, slower moving, flat meplat bullets yield a cleaner kill and less temporary wound cavity.
Hunting a big critter, I'd rather have a .338-06 than a 7mmRM. Frankly, I'd much rather have a .45/70, .450 marlin or comparable cartridge, but in conventional bolt action bottlenecks, I'd still go bigger and slower for hunting.
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^^ This also, if I may contribute to APS thread veer.
My inclination, if I ever get to hunt anything larger than Arizona elk, is to go to a larger diameter projectile if presented with moose/buffalo/griz or big african game. I've heard that stepping up to .270-.300 caliber magnums results in a lot of bloodshot meat and shattered bone. The larger diameter, slower moving, flat meplat bullets yield a cleaner kill and less temporary wound cavity.
Hunting a big critter, I'd rather have a .338-06 than a 7mmRM. Frankly, I'd much rather have a .45/70, .450 marlin or comparable cartridge, but in conventional bolt action bottlenecks, I'd still go bigger and slower for hunting.
I've never had a problem with bloodshot meat with my 300wm. Shooting deer with 12 gauge slugs (slow heavy bullet) has inflicted more ruined meat then shooting them with a high power.
I also want to break bones, it sucks having to track poorly shot animal, really heart breaking when you shoot a Booner deer in the shoulder and doesn't break bone and the animal walks off and enters a wildlife refuge. Piss poor bullet choice on my part with my MZL, it still bothers me to think about it.
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. . . My inclination, if I ever get to hunt anything larger than Arizona elk, is to go to a larger diameter projectile if presented with moose/buffalo/griz or big african game . . .
IMHO, the .30/06 is a good choice for all non-dangerous, thin-skinned game worldwide with the possible exceptions of eland and giraffe. Aside from deer I've used mine with excellent results on warthog, Kafue lechwe, impala, kudu, zebra, wildebeest, gemsbok, and leopard, at ranges up to 400+ yards. For larger game, I'd go to a larger cartridge; in my case, I skipped over the .338s and went right to .375 H&H.
I've never had a problem with bloodshot meat with my 300wm. Shooting deer with 12 gauge slugs (slow heavy bullet) has inflicted more ruined meat then shooting them with a high power.
The .300 WM doesn't gain all that much velocity over a .30/06. A 300 yard shot with a .300 will hit roughly like a 150 yard shot from a .30/06; doubt a deer will tell the difference, and I wouldn't expect huge amounts of bloodshot meat.
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The .300 WM doesn't gain all that much velocity over a .30/06. A 300 yard shot with a .300 will hit roughly like a 150 yard shot from a .30/06; doubt a deer will tell the difference, and I wouldn't expect huge amounts of bloodshot meat.
400-500fps is not a lot?
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Why the affliction of Magnumitis?
Seems like fun, and there are lots of them available pretty cheaply at the moment in my local area? I have no real need for one, but if I can rtade into it or get it for a bargain why not?
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My thoughts, and possibly just mine.
If just for hunting, which is only a few shots a year, get whatever will be most affordable, both in gun and ammo. If you can find one for sale already scoped, so much the better.
If you plan on doing a lot of target/recreational shooting, I would go for the one with most affordable and available ammo, in case you don't want to reload. If you get serious, and start doing matches, and want to reload, I would go with the one with the largest selection of bullets to try.
I have nothing against either one of those rounds, but I was able to pick up a 308 Norma Mag for a song, so I am turning that into a long range shooter. My biggest issue right now is getting the brass. I have resisted turning the 338 Win Mag into brass for it, but if my order doesn't come through soon, I may have to do that.
bob
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Seems like fun, and there are lots of them available pretty cheaply at the moment in my local area? I have no real need for one, but if I can rtade into it or get it for a bargain why not?
Go ahead shoot one from the bench 20 or 30 times in a row, you may change your mind on magnum high power.
I'm actually thinking about a model 70 in 270 win for off season practicing and only using the 300 for hunting.
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Recoil on my 7MM doesn't bother me, but I'm not all that recoil sensitive in general. I took a long range rifle class with it a few years ago where I threw over 300 rounds downrange and was fine at the end of the day. I've had the opportunity to shoot both a .300 and .338 Win. Only a few rounds through each, but surprisingly to me, the .338 had less felt recoil, or at least not as sharp.
All that said, my .308 is my favorite hunting rifle. :)
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400-500fps is not a lot?
HOW much? Let's see what the manufacturers claim:
Winchester .30/06 180 grain Ballistic Silvertip: 2750 ft/sec
Winchester 300 Win Mag 180 grain Ballistic Silvertip: 2950 ft/sec
That's the normal spread, about 200 ft/sec.
Looking at higher performance ammo:
Hornady .30.06 180 grain SST Superformance: 2820 ft/sec
Hornady .300 Win Mag 180 grain SST Superformance: 3130 ft/sec
That's a bit more spread, 310 ft/sec.
Handloads? The highest velocity Hodgdon lists for a 180 in the .30/06 is 2840 ft/sec; for the .300 WinMag, it's 3042, 202 ft/sec. edge to the Mag.
I'm not seeing a spread of 400-500 ft/sec with a serious bullet weight.
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Go ahead shoot one from the bench 20 or 30 times in a row, you may change your mind on magnum high power.
I'm actually thinking about a model 70 in 270 win for off season practicing and only using the 300 for hunting.
I don't really like shooting off a bench. Field positions usually seem less of an issue with recoil.
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HOW much? Let's see what the manufacturers claim:
Winchester .30/06 180 grain Ballistic Silvertip: 2750 ft/sec
Winchester 300 Win Mag 180 grain Ballistic Silvertip: 2950 ft/sec
That's the normal spread, about 200 ft/sec.
Looking at higher performance ammo:
Hornady .30.06 180 grain SST Superformance: 2820 ft/sec
Hornady .300 Win Mag 180 grain SST Superformance: 3130 ft/sec
That's a bit more spread, 310 ft/sec.
Handloads? The highest velocity Hodgdon lists for a 180 in the .30/06 is 2840 ft/sec; for the .300 WinMag, it's 3042, 202 ft/sec. edge to the Mag.
I'm not seeing a spread of 400-500 ft/sec with a serious bullet weight.
I get ~3120 with a 180g bullet. My Hodgdon book shows 2600-2800 for 180 in 30-06. So that is 300-400.
If I max out the 165g I can get ~3300 fps out of my rifle, My Hodgdon book shows 2650-2950 for the 165g loads. There is your 400-500+fps.
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I'd suggest working up decent loads with that .270 of yours, and learning what its capabilities are, before going the magnum route.
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I don't really like shooting off a bench. Field positions usually seem less of an issue with recoil.
Bench is the best way to zero a scope and see the accuracy of the load. Once I get zeroed I'm shooting how I would be when hunting, with a bipod, with sticks, off a backpack, against a tree, etc.
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Whippersnappers and their fancy new fangled smokeless powder magnums ;/
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi23.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb398%2FFLHRI-OK%2Fphoto3.jpg&hash=e67a36cc39da3ac57bcd5251483a8dd9b198668a) (http://s23.photobucket.com/user/FLHRI-OK/media/photo3.jpg.html)
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Whippersnappers and their fancy new fangled smokeless powder magnums ;/
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi23.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb398%2FFLHRI-OK%2Fphoto3.jpg&hash=e67a36cc39da3ac57bcd5251483a8dd9b198668a) (http://s23.photobucket.com/user/FLHRI-OK/media/photo3.jpg.html)
Who are you calling a whippersnapper? I hunt with a muzzleloader for much of the Iowa deer seasons. You and your self contained cartridges. :)
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I don't really like shooting off a bench. Field positions usually seem less of an issue with recoil.
I knew I liked you for some reason or other. :-*
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So I start a what gun to buy thread and ya'll tell me not to? I don't know what the internet is coming to... :O =D
And ftr, working on the .270 and playing with a loudenboomer are not mutually exclusive. This is a whim and I'm in no hurry though.
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Why limit yourself? Go big or go home son, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcEvBwMKZ9s =D
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Go ahead shoot one from the bench 20 or 30 times in a row, you may change your mind on magnum high power.
Yeah....I ended up having to change shoulders on my .30-06 after 20 or so rounds. Thing weighs maybe 7 lbs with a scope, and it will put a bruising on you. I eventually put a pound or so of lead birdshot into the buttstock to take the edge off. That comes out during hunting season, though.
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Who are you calling a whippersnapper? I hunt with a muzzleloader for much of the Iowa deer seasons. You and your self contained cartridges. :)
I haven't hunted with the 1874 yet but I did manage a garden pillaging woodchuck with this a few years ago.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi23.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb398%2FFLHRI-OK%2Fgun%2520stuff%2Fflintgpr.jpg&hash=f7a0034ec5864bd0682d0858e466917b9b7d1052) (http://s23.photobucket.com/user/FLHRI-OK/media/gun%20stuff/flintgpr.jpg.html)
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Yeah....I ended up having to change shoulders on my .30-06 after 20 or so rounds. Thing weighs maybe 7 lbs with a scope, and it will put a bruising on you. I eventually put a pound or so of lead birdshot into the buttstock to take the edge off. That comes out during hunting season, though.
I have to be careful with the heavy kickers after my shoulder surgery. I need to wear a recoil pad even with the AR-15 for more than few dozen rounds. Full power/heavy bullet rounds from the Sharps will just about cripple me for a few days without the PAST recoil pad on. Damned incision was way to close to where the butt rests.
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I bought an Encore in 300wm this Spring "just because" and because I had Cabelas credit to burn. I don't need anything like that, but wanted an Encore and something more powerful than my 6.5x55. I've been playing around with alternative loads for the 300. Things like cast bullets with Trail Boss, lite loads, etc. Once I get my hands on the appropriate projectiles, I'm going to experiment with heavy bullets (205gr+). I doubt I'll ever hunt with it, but if I get an opportunity to go after elk (we have them in VA), I'll have an appropriate gun for it.
With full power loads, I can go 20-30 shots off the bench before I start fighting flinch. With my 6.5x55, I never reach that point (have burned 50 rounds in a session with it).
Get the 300. Nothing says you MUST run 165gr spitzers at warp speed. Try some 200gr RN at a more sedate level or give paper patching a try (something else I may play with).
Chris
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My shoulders are fine, but I have just found I don't like bench shooting with high recoil guns. Shooting while sitting up or standing is much easier as you can roll your shoulder with the recoil better.
Between my PTR-91 with it's surplus scope and that 300 WinMag I have, I got to really hate the visual of a scope jerking back at my eye. I had a muzzle break installed on the 300, and the recoil dang near eliminated, just lots of blast. It is an older rifle that was a gift that isn't so accurate.
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I bought an Encore in 300wm this Spring "just because" and because I had Cabelas credit to burn. I don't need anything like that, but wanted an Encore and something more powerful than my 6.5x55. I've been playing around with alternative loads for the 300. Things like cast bullets with Trail Boss, lite loads, etc. Once I get my hands on the appropriate projectiles, I'm going to experiment with heavy bullets (205gr+). I doubt I'll ever hunt with it, but if I get an opportunity to go after elk (we have them in VA), I'll have an appropriate gun for it.
With full power loads, I can go 20-30 shots off the bench before I start fighting flinch. With my 6.5x55, I never reach that point (have burned 50 rounds in a session with it).
Get the 300. Nothing says you MUST run 165gr spitzers at warp speed. Try some 200gr RN at a more sedate level or give paper patching a try (something else I may play with).
Chris
Yep, You can always load a .300 down to 30-06 or even 30-30 levels, but you can load neither up to .300WM performance.
The old man that introduced me to the world of bullet casting had the same philosophy with a .458 WM- load it down to 45/70 levels or so and it makes a dandy deer rifle. Nothing more fun than shooting 'light' cast loads out of a rifle like that. Low recoil, and a loud 'WHAP' when the bullet hits the target backer. >:D
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Yep, You can always load a .300 down to 30-06 or even 30-30 levels,
Tru dat.
Brad
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This ain't my first rodeo, Balog. I got soured on the eargesplitten loudenboomers back in my long-range competition days. Those rifles were heavier than hunting/sporter variants, yet still punished the shooter over the course of a match.
Shooting them from the prone bipod was absolutely no fun at all. The barrel life at factory and top-end handload data is not so great, either.
The higher working pressures and the bead-blasting effect of all that extra powder going through the chamber throat and burning further down the barrel raise hell with things over time.
I actually competed against a guy at a 500 meter sniper match who had his 7mm STW rig wired with a barrel-mounted thermocouple and digital display, so he could keep the chamber end cool and lengthen his barrel's life.
Overbore rounds certainly get the job done, but it's no free lunch. The quest for more fps is one of diminishing returns once you get past a certain point.
The .30-378 Weatherby Magnum is one hell of a round. It also has a barrel life measured in the hundreds of rounds. You'd better get your favorite handload dialed in within 20-40 rounds, because the clock's ticking before the throat is washed out.
That's why I settled on my own 6.5-06 for 1000 yard work. The bullets stay supersonic well past 1000 yards, yet the recoil is minimized and I'm not overbore like the .264 Win Mag and others.
Hence my saying you should explore what that .270 is capable of. At .277" bore, it's darned close to a .264, and IIRC Walt Berger even started making VLDs for that caliber.
Although, the long-range rifle that sees the most trigger time from my gun safes is my own 1874 Sharps Business Rifle.
535gr Postell cast by yours truly, beeswax and lard lube, a card wad, then 70gr of Goex Cartridge grade Holy Black. 32" of burn time, Creedmoor sights with spirit level. My own kind of Magnum! =D
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I get ~3120 with a 180g bullet. My Hodgdon book shows 2600-2800 for 180 in 30-06. So that is 300-400.
If I max out the 165g I can get ~3300 fps out of my rifle, My Hodgdon book shows 2650-2950 for the 165g loads. There is your 400-500+fps.
Try again.
Comparing top loads, in the first case cited there's 3120-2800 = 320 ft/sec difference. (Hodgdon's on-line data shows 2840 for the '06, cutting the difference to 280. What does Hodgdon say YOUR handload ought to be doing?)
Looking at the lighter bullets, the data you cited gives 3300-2950 = 350 ft/sec difference.
But since you're comparing a particular rifle to a handbook, it's really a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison; I at least tried to be consistent.
Even so, if comparing top loads, it's still well short of your 400-500 ft/sec assertion . . . unless you deliberately choose "downloaded" '06 loads for comparison purposes.
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Try again.
Comparing top loads, in the first case cited there's 3120-2800 = 320 ft/sec difference. (Hodgdon's on-line data shows 2840 for the '06, cutting the difference to 280. What does Hodgdon say YOUR handload ought to be doing?)
Looking at the lighter bullets, the data you cited gives 3300-2950 = 350 ft/sec difference.
But since you're comparing a particular rifle to a handbook, it's really a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison; I at least tried to be consistent.
Even so, if comparing top loads, it's still well short of your 400-500 ft/sec assertion . . . unless you deliberately choose "downloaded" '06 loads for comparison purposes.
I get that with my .300wm vs my .30-06
Factory loads I can agree more with you, but as you know handloading can beat the performance of most factory ammo (not all, because of the mixing of powders ammo manufactors do to increase fps without spiking pressure)
Also as said earlier, you can load a 300 wm to match 30-06 but you can't safety load a 30-06 to match a 300win.
My favorite powder for 300wm is Alliant R-22 and I do load over max sometimes, and I will not share my load data.
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Agree that you can download a .300win to match .30/06, but the '06 will not equal a full power .300win. We're not really debating which one is more powerful - that's clearly the .300 mag. Just some disagreement over the magnitude of the difference.
BTW, unless I'm loading for a Garand, my favorite .30/06 powder is RL-22; Nosler says the top load with a 180 is good for 2870, but in MY rifle, with it's well-used 22" barrel, it only gets around 2750. =(
(I used to get more with N-205, but that was discontinued long ago . . . :'( )