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Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Balog on February 24, 2014, 12:44:13 PM

Title: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Balog on February 24, 2014, 12:44:13 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/24/us/politics/pentagon-plans-to-shrink-army-to-pre-world-war-ii-level.html?_r=1

Appears they mean the entire .mil not just the Army but I'm not entirely sure.

If this was accompanied by a commensurate reduction in world policing and starting land wars we don't intend to win and occupations we have no intention of actually finishing I would be for it. I suspect it will merely mean dramatically increased op-tempo, reduction in quality training and maintenance (but not PC BS), and the fleeing of quality personnel.

The article really annoyed me as it makes this unstated assumption that if we spool down now we would not be able to ramp back up for a large war in the future. Demonstrably false.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: TommyGunn on February 24, 2014, 01:08:45 PM
Let's hope this force reduction doesn't result in some foreign entity getting all trigger happy and starting something truly nasty that initiates WW3.  



   
"Only the dead have seen the end of war."~~  Plato.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Tallpine on February 24, 2014, 01:35:47 PM
Quote
If this was accompanied by a commensurate reduction in world policing and starting land wars we don't intend to win and occupations we have no intention of actually finishing I would be for it.

A worthy goal in and of itself  :angel:
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: roo_ster on February 24, 2014, 01:38:28 PM
Well, as long as we get the openly fruity and women into infantry units while reducing standards, it will be worth it.  Because the .mil was originally created so that a slim minority of cultural marxists could bugger it silly while forcing it to salute the flag.  Great for laughs all around.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Ned Hamford on February 24, 2014, 02:10:37 PM
With a reduction in force comes a greater reliance on military contractors.  I do think that is the main purpose. 
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: roo_ster on February 24, 2014, 02:13:30 PM
With a reduction in force comes a greater reliance on military contractors.  I do think that is the main purpose. 

Err, maybe.  No way you are going to replace any of the heavy, SBCT, or infantry units with contractors.  And some of those are slated for destruction.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: French G. on February 24, 2014, 02:17:45 PM
It's in keeping with that small, agile force BS. Hope they keep the equipment, we will get into another real war eventually, not just Team America stuff. Of course within the budget proposal is to keep the F-35 on track and scrap the A-10s since the former has proven its ground attack prowess and the latter is just an expensive boondoggle. Oh wait....
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: SADShooter on February 24, 2014, 03:14:08 PM
With a reduction in force comes a greater reliance on military contractors.  I do think that is the main purpose. 

As retention and training suffer, will not the base of potential skilled contractors also shrink?
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: MechAg94 on February 24, 2014, 05:30:37 PM
So will the Pentagon staffing and the NSA also shrink to pre-WWII levels?
Title: Re: Re: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: lupinus on February 24, 2014, 06:36:29 PM
So will the Pentagon staffing and the NSA also shrink to pre-WWII levels?
I'm going with...no.

This, simply put, stupid in all manner of ways.

Sent via tapatalk
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Gowen on February 24, 2014, 11:44:06 PM
Look at the CIC, he hates the military, he hates that the US is the lone supper power, he hates our freedoms. No wonder he weakening out power and influence.  Nature abhors a vacuum.  Let's hope whatever fills it, is benevolent.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Regolith on February 24, 2014, 11:54:31 PM
It's in keeping with that small, agile force BS. Hope they keep the equipment, we will get into another real war eventually, not just Team America stuff. Of course within the budget proposal is to keep the F-35 on track and scrap the A-10s since the former has proven its ground attack prowess and the latter is just an expensive boondoggle. Oh wait....

Don't they keep trying to scrap the A-10 and then keep bringing it back because they literally don't have anything else that fills the same role?

Seems kinda dumb to me.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Matthew Carberry on February 24, 2014, 11:56:38 PM
As I recall my history, at some point this means we will be stenciling "Tank" on the side of Ford pick-ups.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Fitz on February 25, 2014, 12:11:16 AM
Don't they keep trying to scrap the A-10 and then keep bringing it back because they literally don't have anything else that fills the same role?

Seems kinda dumb to me.

Difference is, congresscritters dont have a financial interest in that airframe ;-)

It's a scary time to be in the military. They're cutting all the wrong things, IMO. Meanwhile, continued frustration is driving good junior officers and good NCOs from the service, leaving the turds to float to the top.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: French G. on February 25, 2014, 05:01:47 AM
Difference is, congresscritters dont have a financial interest in that airframe ;-)

Winner, winner. Stuff like the F-35, new destroyers or whatever sells in multiple districts.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: RevDisk on February 25, 2014, 10:39:54 AM
Difference is, congresscritters dont have a financial interest in that airframe ;-)

It's a scary time to be in the military. They're cutting all the wrong things, IMO. Meanwhile, continued frustration is driving good junior officers and good NCOs from the service, leaving the turds to float to the top.

Ayep. DoD civilian employee budget is exploding, ditto contractors. They're compensating by stripping veteran benefits and cutting combat capacity.

Why they don't gut the paperpusher hierarchy with a chainsaw, I have no idea.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: dogmush on February 25, 2014, 10:57:40 AM
Because the Paper pushers are the one's deciding who to cut.  Such is the tale of armies throughout history.  The [logistical] tail soon wags the dog.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: roo_ster on February 25, 2014, 11:00:29 AM
Ayep. DoD civilian employee budget is exploding, ditto contractors. They're compensating by stripping veteran benefits and cutting combat capacity.

Why they don't gut the paperpusher hierarchy with a chainsaw, I have no idea.

In the previous round of cut & reorg, the Army planned for something similar in the combat units, shucking off lots of HHC green-suiters.  Preserved combat power and all systems at the pointy end.  This round looks to gut quite a bit of capability.  It is almost as if their civvie masters were pissed that some smart officers were able to meet the objectives without losing capability.

Heard a rumor that ALL the remaining ABCTs (equipped with Abrams, Bradley, & other mech warfare gear) were to be pushed into NG.  Because the assumption is that we will not meet a heavy threat.  Think on that.  The only active duty heavies would be USMC Abrams.  The only heavies ready for deployment RFN are the tank platoons in the MEUs.  That is four Abrams.  And not even our best Abrams (USMC fields M1A1).



Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Tallpine on February 25, 2014, 11:10:10 AM
Look at the CIC, he hates the military, he hates that the US is the lone supper power, he hates our freedoms. No wonder he weakening out power and influence.  Nature abhors a vacuum.  Let's hope whatever fills it, is benevolent.

So why does He keep trying to start new wars every 15 minutes  ???
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Balog on February 25, 2014, 11:39:38 AM
In the previous round of cut & reorg, the Army planned for something similar in the combat units, shucking off lots of HHC green-suiters.  Preserved combat power and all systems at the pointy end.  This round looks to gut quite a bit of capability.  It is almost as if their civvie masters were pissed that some smart officers were able to meet the objectives without losing capability.

Heard a rumor that ALL the remaining ABCTs (equipped with Abrams, Bradley, & other mech warfare gear) were to be pushed into NG.  Because the assumption is that we will not meet a heavy threat.  Think on that.  The only active duty heavies would be USMC Abrams.  The only heavies ready for deployment RFN are the tank platoons in the MEUs.  That is four Abrams.  And not even our best Abrams (USMC fields M1A1).

Similar to the way heavy transport and MP units got shifted to the Guards before Iraq and Afghanistan.

Because the Paper pushers are the one's deciding who to cut.  Such is the tale of armies throughout history.  The [logistical] tail soon wags the dog.

Yep.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: makattak on February 25, 2014, 12:10:41 PM
In the previous round of cut & reorg, the Army planned for something similar in the combat units, shucking off lots of HHC green-suiters.  Preserved combat power and all systems at the pointy end.  This round looks to gut quite a bit of capability.  It is almost as if their civvie masters were pissed that some smart officers were able to meet the objectives without losing capability.

Heard a rumor that ALL the remaining ABCTs (equipped with Abrams, Bradley, & other mech warfare gear) were to be pushed into NG.  Because the assumption is that we will not meet a heavy threat.  Think on that.  The only active duty heavies would be USMC Abrams.  The only heavies ready for deployment RFN are the tank platoons in the MEUs.  That is four Abrams.  And not even our best Abrams (USMC fields M1A1).

Our elites are CERTAIN we're never fighting another conventional war against a comparable power.

As such, there is no need, whatsoever, to prepare for such a war.

...

What's that? Something about being prepared for it means you'll never have to fight it? Si vis pacem, para bellum?

Ah... who cares what some old white guy said?
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Scout26 on February 25, 2014, 12:52:58 PM
We always prepare to fight the last war.  Along with the entire "not learning from history" in that every time we've cut waaaaaayyyyy back, someone else build waaaaaaayyyyyy up and then gets cocky.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: RevDisk on February 25, 2014, 01:04:19 PM
In the previous round of cut & reorg, the Army planned for something similar in the combat units, shucking off lots of HHC green-suiters.  Preserved combat power and all systems at the pointy end.  This round looks to gut quite a bit of capability.  It is almost as if their civvie masters were pissed that some smart officers were able to meet the objectives without losing capability.

Heard a rumor that ALL the remaining ABCTs (equipped with Abrams, Bradley, & other mech warfare gear) were to be pushed into NG.  Because the assumption is that we will not meet a heavy threat.  Think on that.  The only active duty heavies would be USMC Abrams.  The only heavies ready for deployment RFN are the tank platoons in the MEUs.  That is four Abrams.  And not even our best Abrams (USMC fields M1A1).

If I'm understanding that correctly... That is insane, to put it mildly. ALL armor brigades going to the NG? I think a lot higher of the NG than a lot of folks, but having ZERO active duty armor brigades is nuts. You'd want some for Korea, at a minimum, and a couple more in case of a smaller power losing their marbles. Between this and the DoD betting damn near everything on the F-35, we're going to be in a very rough patch. The only plus side is the Navy is doing well, we have 10 active carriers and two in reserve. 

We'll be in short straights with virtually no heavy armor and restricted fighter airframes across all of the services. Only plus side is that the US is unlikely to be invaded. Canada and Mexico don't exactly have a lot of offensive military capacity.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Scout26 on February 25, 2014, 01:23:11 PM
Yeah, I don't think all the AD Armor/Mech is going away.   They just shipped a battalions worth back to Europe after 2CR got their azzes handed to them in a recent NATO exercise.  Seems that Strykers can't go toe-to-toe with heavy armor.   Who knew?  ;/ ;/ :facepalm: :facepalm:
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: tokugawa on February 25, 2014, 01:25:56 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/24/us/politics/pentagon-plans-to-shrink-army-to-pre-world-war-ii-level.html?_r=1

The article really annoyed me as it makes this unstated assumption that if we spool down now we would not be able to ramp back up for a large war in the future. Demonstrably false.

   If we get hit by a heavyweight actor, it is going to be over in days or weeks.  They still know what war is.
 It will be all in. They will blind us, cripple us and kill us. There will no no ramping up time at all.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: RevDisk on February 25, 2014, 01:47:49 PM
If we get hit by a heavyweight actor, it is going to be over in days or weeks.  They still know what war is.
It will be all in. They will blind us, cripple us and kill us. There will no no ramping up time at all.

Uhm, no. By "no", I mean absolutely no chance in hell. By "absolutely no chance in hell", I mean "Even if they really really tried and broke all of the rules... it still wouldn't happen". By "Even if they really really tried and broke all of the rules... it still wouldn't happen", I mean "Yea.... No."

 ;)

What heavyweight actor? You have EU, Russia and China. Brazil, NK and India wouldn't have a shot in hell even if they gave AK47's to every citizen and magically teleported them to the US. EU isn't going to invade. Russia doesn't have the economic resources, isn't stupid enough to want to do so and is aware that the SOLE military object we're more than ready to implement is a good Cold War inspired nuking. China is making money hand over fist from us. They might want to take Taiwan, but definitely not the US mainland. In any event, the EU, Russia and China would need a massive build up for even a limited war with the US.

There is only ONE heavyweight that would be capable of implementing what you say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQeILlfdR-s
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Balog on February 25, 2014, 01:48:52 PM
  If we get hit by a heavyweight actor, it is going to be over in days or weeks.  They still know what war is.
 It will be all in. They will blind us, cripple us and kill us. There will no no ramping up time at all.

How? If someone nuked us, we'd nuke them back. Other than that, no country has the capability to project force onto our mainland.

Not trying to be dismissive, just no idea how you see that happening.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: RevDisk on February 25, 2014, 01:50:35 PM
How? If someone nuked us, we'd nuke them back. Other than that, no country has the capability to project force onto our mainland.

Not trying to be dismissive, just no idea how you see that happening.

See my link. There is one entity that could. It's the only heavyweight actor capable of doing so. Likely the heavyweight tokugawa had in mind.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: TommyGunn on February 25, 2014, 01:57:45 PM
Uhm, no. By "no", I mean absolutely no chance in hell. By "absolutely no chance in hell", I mean "Even if they really really tried and broke all of the rules... it still wouldn't happen". By "Even if they really really tried and broke all of the rules... it still wouldn't happen", I mean "Yea.... No."

 ;)

What heavyweight actor? You have EU, Russia and China. Brazil, NK and India wouldn't have a shot in hell even if they gave AK47's to every citizen and magically teleported them to the US. EU isn't going to invade. Russia doesn't have the economic resources, isn't stupid enough to want to do so and is aware that the SOLE military object we're more than ready to implement is a good Cold War inspired nuking. China is making money hand over fist from us. They might want to take Taiwan, but definitely not the US mainland. In any event, the EU, Russia and China would need a massive build up for even a limited war with the US.

There is only ONE heavyweight that would be capable of implementing what you say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQeILlfdR-s

You're kidding.   

I think you are underestimating what future developments will bring.    I probably won't be around then but depending on how old you are now, you very well might. 
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: T.O.M. on February 25, 2014, 02:22:48 PM
I think it is a bit funny that some people who complain about .gov spending money it doesn't have are now up in arms because it is cutting costs.  I'll admit, there are many things I'd like to see cut long before taking a knife to the DOD budget, but having once worn a uniform, I know that there is a lot of fat in the DOD budget.  That said, I think cutting the A-10 because it is a tank buster is just plain ignorant, because it overlooks the aircraft capability for close air support ops.

Honestly, I wonder how long it will be until someone has a serious thought about closing West Point, Annapolis, the Air Force Academy, and the Coast guard Academy, or in some way consolidating the programs...maybe move the Coasties in with the Squids, and put the Zoomies back with the Cadets.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: RevDisk on February 25, 2014, 02:29:32 PM
You're kidding. 

I think you are underestimating what future developments will bring.    I probably won't be around then but depending on how old you are now, you very well might. 

Less kidding than the original poster. We will face future problems.

India might advance to a world power and become belligerent. That's no sooner than 20-50 years.
China may abandon a focus on economic growth to military conquest. That'd take 5-20 years to implement.
Russia may form an ethnic Slavic variation of the USSR. That'd take 10-30 years.
Islamic states may unify to become another Caliphate or Ottoman Empire. That'd take decades or centuries.
Iran may merge with Iraq to become Persia again.
Africa could unite into one state. Or become China's sepoy.

*shrug*

Even any of those major changes would mean very little. Raids or attacks, sure. The implications of full on invasions would range from hilarious to annoying, worrisome is not in the cards. The ONLY possibility of foreign invasion is if we have a Civil War, and opportunistic foreign forces got involved. It's possible, but I'd still bet my money on America xenophobia outweighing huge scale collaboration. This is not a Matt Bracken book, we're talking about the real world.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: roo_ster on February 25, 2014, 02:36:21 PM
Yeah, I don't think all the AD Armor/Mech is going away.   They just shipped a battalions worth back to Europe after 2CR got their azzes handed to them in a recent NATO exercise.  Seems that Strykers can't go toe-to-toe with heavy armor.   Who knew?  ;/ ;/ :facepalm: :facepalm:

Maybe some folks who did initial ops analysis back when Shinseki proposed such a critter?   ;)

Don't get me wrong, SBCT brings more and more mobile combat power to the table than light infantry.  If it were truly air mobile and ready to rock on landing it would be a terrific asset and just the thing to bring in after the Rangers secure your airfields.  But you would have to be a fool to think it can be used like armored or cav units can & ought to be used.

Oh, the SBCT can DEFEND against heavy armor...if it has time to deploy and break out the multitudinous Javelins.  And if the terrain is reasonably amenable.  Pushing tarted up LAVs Strykers against real armor is a fine way to generate tons of scrap metal.

If I'm understanding that correctly... That is insane, to put it mildly. ALL armor brigades going to the NG? I think a lot higher of the NG than a lot of folks, but having ZERO active duty armor brigades is nuts. You'd want some for Korea, at a minimum, and a couple more in case of a smaller power losing their marbles. Between this and the DoD betting damn near everything on the F-35, we're going to be in a very rough patch. The only plus side is the Navy is doing well, we have 10 active carriers and two in reserve. 

We'll be in short straights with virtually no heavy armor and restricted fighter airframes across all of the services. Only plus side is that the US is unlikely to be invaded. Canada and Mexico don't exactly have a lot of offensive military capacity.

Yes, you have understood correctly. 

Obviously it has not been done yet, but this is a real possibility.

The idea is:
1. Reorient to Pacific.
2. All Pacific action will be amenable to Spec Ops and light infantry solutions.
3. Cut & gut like crazy.

Yeah, the F35.  Not sure I want to give up our hardest-hitting ground attack aircraft (A10) until the F35 has proved itself in numbers.  Meanwhile, we will fly the best 1970s air superiority aircraft (F15) and the best 1980s light fighter (F16).  And a few F22s. 

I think it is a bit funny that some people who complain about .gov spending money it doesn't have are now up in arms because it is cutting costs.  I'll admit, there are many things I'd like to see cut long before taking a knife to the DOD budget, but having once worn a uniform, I know that there is a lot of fat in the DOD budget.  That said, I think cutting the A-10 because it is a tank buster is just plain ignorant, because it overlooks the aircraft capability for close air support ops.

Honestly, I wonder how long it will be until someone has a serious thought about closing West Point, Annapolis, the Air Force Academy, and the Coast guard Academy, or in some way consolidating the programs...maybe move the Coasties in with the Squids, and put the Zoomies back with the Cadets.

1. The cost cutting proposed is rather foolish and sub-optimal.  This has been seen on the horizon for some time and planned for such that as much combat power was preserved.  Those plans are being junked in favor of maximizing the loss of combat power and minimizing the loss of overhead.
2. Spending money on hardware and then dumping the hardware in the middle of the Atlantic is less harmful than our social programs.
3. Stacking the cash in a great pyramid like the Joker and setting it on fire is less harmful than spending it on social programs.
4. Army is in such a screwed up place vis a vis its civvie employees, I do not even know where to begin.  I can go to PM here, or preferably a dim location where alcoholic beverages are served for some detail.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: TommyGunn on February 25, 2014, 02:50:01 PM
I think it is a bit funny that some people who complain about .gov spending money it doesn't have are now up in arms because it is cutting costs.  I'll admit, there are many things I'd like to see cut long before taking a knife to the DOD budget, but having once worn a uniform, I know that there is a lot of fat in the DOD budget.  That said, I think cutting the A-10 because it is a tank buster is just plain ignorant, because it overlooks the aircraft capability for close air support ops.

Honestly, I wonder how long it will be until someone has a serious thought about closing West Point, Annapolis, the Air Force Academy, and the Coast guard Academy, or in some way consolidating the programs...maybe move the Coasties in with the Squids, and put the Zoomies back with the Cadets.


Your point is meritorious.
But, once we get past the superficial enmities between right <>left wing politics, or Republican VS. Democrat, the fact is there are a lot of programs (mostly ENTITLEMENTS) that are really driving our debt and those need to be dealt with.  But neither side is...though I suppose the repubs could point out how hard it is to lead "from behind" (though Obama seems to prefer this insofar as military escapades are concerned) and the demorats are claiming austerity is over, it didn't work, and we need to spend bazillions more.
National defense is one thing the Constitution provides for.  Certainly we need less paperpusher types in the Pentagon ....maybe less BRASS (!) and procurement systems need fixing (F-35 :mad:)
We need to be far smarter at the top.

I see no country that currently has the ability to invade America.  England did it once in the War of 1812 and were kind enough to send our kongresskritters scattering to the hills (remind me to send the Quen a belated Thank You letter) when high tech warships were wind powered. 
China has a humongus military but no way to get it here, despite RED DAWN  movies that were altered to show North Koreans (with EVEN LESS ability) invasion forces.   And China likely has no interest (right now) in any invasion.
But things change ... in a few generations, China may be far better able to project power.   Will it still own so much of our national debt or will it have sold off what it had?   How will the leaders feel about international politics when today's babies are full grown adults rearing children of their own?
Or India?
Or Russia?  Putin seems desirous of putting the USSR back together.   
Does anyone think Obama's gonna stop him? :rofl:

Fun times ahead for sure. [popcorn]
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Gowen on February 25, 2014, 04:44:06 PM
So why does He keep trying to start new wars every 15 minutes  ???

How better to destroy this countries power, alienate our allies and any "friends" we have in the world.  We spend money on wars, social programs and whatever else he can think up, that we don't have. 
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Fitz on February 25, 2014, 05:46:02 PM
  If we get hit by a heavyweight actor, it is going to be over in days or weeks.  They still know what war is.
 It will be all in. They will blind us, cripple us and kill us. There will no no ramping up time at all.

LOL
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Scout26 on February 25, 2014, 06:14:30 PM
I agree with Chris, I neither think nor believe that we need a WWII sized or even Cold War sized military.  But what we do need is a balance of Heavy and Light Forces with an eye towards the Pacific, however that will probably not be where the next fight takes place.

The chances of anyone building up anything resembling an invasion fleet would get noticed far enough ahead of time for us to build up our defenses (again barring Gawdzirra, Mothra or any such like).

There is no need for any land units in Germany other then to play footsie with our NATO allies.  One Combined Arms Task Force (call it a Cav Squardon + Arty and other slice elements) at Graf/Vilseck or Baumholder* with some supporting ash and trash units is all the land force we need there.  Ramstein and Landstuhl with Mobility Command and Medical are needed, but not much else.   Naval bases/access throughout the world should be a given.   Korea gives me the heebie-jeebies.  I want to put more forces there, but I don't want them to go *poof* in a mushroom cloud.  Downsizing Okinawa is a mistake but we need some place close but not too close that makes a small target.  (Even if Guam won't tip over and sink.  ;))

We don't need that large of an Active force, but we should expand the Guard/Reserve simply so that should the balloon in someway, go up.  We at least have folks that know which end of the tube the round comes out of.   We will have time to prepare to counterstrike, because unless they strike at us directly, we're going to leave them alone.

Yeah, and someone needs to reduce headcount in the Pentagon and every other Major headquarters by 30%.  To start with.



*Baumholder being ~30km from Ramstein while Graf/Vilseck is a couple of hours away, that would continue to reduce our Footprint there.  However, the Germans "own" Baumholder and we own Graf/Hohenfels.  Not sure how to work out that trade as Graf has nicer ranges and Hohenfels is almost to level of NTC when comes to force on force training. 
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Fitz on February 25, 2014, 06:51:06 PM
Posting in here because it's related. The TX national guard apparently has no use for an infantry E6 with combat time, drill sergeant badge, and outstanding NCOERs.


It looks like I may be leaving the guard.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: tokugawa on February 25, 2014, 07:03:42 PM
LOL

 Yeah, it will be funny as hell. 
http://www.newenglishreview.org/Jerry_Gordon/Syria%27s_Bio-Warfare_Threat%3A_an_interview_with_Dr._Jill_Dekker/
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Fitz on February 25, 2014, 07:18:28 PM
Yeah, it will be funny as hell. 
http://www.newenglishreview.org/Jerry_Gordon/Syria%27s_Bio-Warfare_Threat%3A_an_interview_with_Dr._Jill_Dekker/

Yeah, I'm totally expecting Syria to take a break from the massive civil war killing thousands on each side, and try to conjure up some delivery mechanism here. Knowing that if they do, they'll cease to exist.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Fitz on February 25, 2014, 07:23:17 PM
Even with the cuts, we'll have the highest defense spending in the world by a fair margin.

What they're doing is not smart, they're cutting the wrong things.

But it's hardly going to lead to us getting ROFLstomped anytime soon

Stop with the fearmongering. It doesn't suit the denizens of this board
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Balog on February 25, 2014, 07:32:17 PM
Yeah, it will be funny as hell. 
http://www.newenglishreview.org/Jerry_Gordon/Syria%27s_Bio-Warfare_Threat%3A_an_interview_with_Dr._Jill_Dekker/

Use of a significant bio-weapon would decimate the entire world population, aside from areas so remote that they have means of projecting force beyond their borders. So, while it could conceivably bring on tikiwiki it wouldn't be an effective means of warfare. It's like a nuke that you where every one you drop on your enemy, you also drop one on yourself.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: TommyGunn on February 25, 2014, 07:37:15 PM
Even with the cuts, we'll have the highest defense spending in the world by a fair margin.

What they're doing is not smart, they're cutting the wrong things.

But it's hardly going to lead to us getting ROFLstomped anytime soon

Stop with the fearmongering. It doesn't suit the denizens of this board

Given who is in the oval office I should think fearmongering would be an improvement. [tinfoil] :angel:
Title: Re: Re: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: roo_ster on February 25, 2014, 07:39:34 PM
Posting in here because it's related. The TX national guard apparently has no use for an infantry E6 with combat time, drill sergeant badge, and outstanding NCOERs.


It looks like I may be leaving the guard.

Got your jump wings?  They have an airborne unit.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Fitz on February 25, 2014, 07:55:29 PM
Got your jump wings?  They have an airborne unit.

All the 11b slots in the LRS unit and the cav close to me require ranger school.

Not happening. Even if i was in the shape to do it.

OTOH, the reserves are dying for qualified drill sergeants, and I liked serving in the 95th div.

We'll see what happens. the IST coordinator is "trying to find me a slot"

It shouldn't be so goddamn hard. But then again, THIS unit HAS a vacancy, and the NCOIC and commander WANTED me, and TX said no.

I don't get it
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Gewehr98 on February 25, 2014, 09:14:11 PM
Quote
Well, as long as we get the openly fruity and women into infantry units while reducing standards, it will be worth it.  Because the .mil was originally created so that a slim minority of cultural marxists could bugger it silly while forcing it to salute the flag.  Great for laughs all around.

Yup.  Damned near as funny as the misogynists we have here on APS.   ;)
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: RevDisk on February 25, 2014, 09:14:25 PM
Even with the cuts, we'll have the highest defense spending in the world by a fair margin.

What they're doing is not smart, they're cutting the wrong things.

But it's hardly going to lead to us getting ROFLstomped anytime soon

Stop with the fearmongering. It doesn't suit the denizens of this board

This, in a nutshell. We can do boat tons of cuts. Hell, we could do cuts and increase operational efficiency. They're just cutting the wrong things. There's still no one that can cross the ocean and invade the US.

We desperately need to make changes to the DoD procurement system. We need to gut the DoD civvie side. As rooster said, that's a ten hour drinking session by itself. Hell, DoD IT is a gorram mess.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on February 25, 2014, 09:23:20 PM
Yup.  Damned near as funny as the misogynists we have here on APS.   ;)

You say misogynist like its a bad thing

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Gewehr98 on February 25, 2014, 09:42:40 PM
Joint service operations should continue, as started previously.

A lot of the former Air Force bases I haunted have become Joint Service Bases.

That's good.  There's so much redundancy between services that offer no good purpose.

Hell, we have how many different versions of the Sikorsky helicopter?  

UH-60 Black Hawk/HH-60 Pave Hawk/HH-60 Jay Hawk/SH-60 Sea Hawk - I know they're modded for each branch, but wow!

Air Force jets like the F-4, F-15, F-16, F-22 etc. have had tailhooks, and they will take a wire on the approach end during IFE landings.  

They may or may not have the strengthened landing gear for carrier landings,  but were it not for political infighting I could see a common fighter between USAF/USN/USMC.

The F-35 is common in name only.  I don't know what the percentages are of parts commonality, but three separate variants for three different perceived missions means $$$.

When the EF-111 Raven was retired, they started doing Joint Service EA-6B Prowler sorties with mixed USAF/USN/USMC crews.  

Look at our neighbors to the north - they took it to the extreme.  Canada has no separate branches of service anymore, they're all just Canadian Forces.  

I'm not saying we should go to that level of consolidation, but it should be studied and exploited.

And I still think an A-10 is a better tank-buster and close air support aircraft than any F-16/F-18/F-35.  
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Regolith on February 25, 2014, 09:44:51 PM
Use of a significant bio-weapon would decimate the entire world population, aside from areas so remote that they have means of projecting force beyond their borders. So, while it could conceivably bring on tikiwiki it wouldn't be an effective means of warfare. It's like a nuke that you where every one you drop on your enemy, you also drop one on yourself.

It's also something that's extremely difficult to pull off. You have to engineer something that is deadly enough to not easily be treated, but not so deadly as to kill its host before it can spread to other people, not to mention perfecting the delivery mechanism. That is an extremely fine line to walk, and I seriously doubt that the bunch of primitives in the Middle East could pull it off.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Gewehr98 on February 25, 2014, 09:52:15 PM
Quote
You say misogynist like its a bad thing

Wrong.

I say it as a graduate of the DoD Equal Opportunity Management Institute.

I've deployed with female B-52, P-3, and WC-135 aircrew who I would fly to hell and back with, in a New York Minute.

I'm proud to have served with them, regardless of the configuration of their organic plumbing.

I've also met USAF female firefighters who have no problem hauling my carcass out of a burning wreck.  

I'm sure there are those who have less physical strength than others, be it guys or gals.

I have no time for misogyny.  

It's an obsolete mindset that harkens back to segregation days, and means nothing when we have female troops out there every day on the pointy end of the spear - Right Friggin' Now.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Regolith on February 25, 2014, 09:55:49 PM
Joint service operations should continue, as started previously.

A lot of the former Air Force bases I haunted have become Joint Service Bases.

That's good.  There's so much redundancy between services that offer no good purpose.

Hell, we have how many different versions of the Sikorsky helicopter? 

UH-60 Black Hawk/HH-60 Pave Hawk/HH-60 Jay Hawk/SH-60 Sea Hawk - I know they're modded for each branch, but wow!

Air Force jets like the F-4, F-15, F-16, F-22 etc. have had tailhooks, and they will take a wire on the approach end during IFE landings. 

They may or may not have the strengthened landing gear for carrier landings,  but were it not for political infighting I could see a common fighter between USAF/USN/USMC.

The F-35 is common in name only.  I don't know what the percentages are of parts commonality, but three separate variants for three different perceived missions means $$$.

When the EF-111 Raven was retired, they started doing Joint Service EA-6B Prowler sorties with mixed USAF/USN/USMC crews.   

Look at our neighbors to the north - they took it to the extreme.  Canada has no separate branches of service anymore, they're all just Canadian Forces. 

I'm not saying we should go to that level of consolidation, but it should be studied and exploited.

And I still think an A-10 is a better tank-buster and close air support aircraft than any F-16/F-18/F-35. 

Yeah...personally, I think they ought to at the very least roll the AF back into the Army. Maybe the Marines, too. Make the only difference be how they show up to the battlefield and whatever specialized training that requires, like how Infantry and Artillery are differentiated.

So then we'd have two branches - the Army and the Navy. Well, I guess three, if you count the Coast Guard (I think that would have to remain its own branch, given how different its mission is).
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Ned Hamford on February 25, 2014, 10:24:03 PM
I want space marines!
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Balog on February 25, 2014, 11:02:40 PM
Yup.  Damned near as funny as the misogynists we have here on APS.   ;)

Not as funny as the people who think pointing out the factual physical differences between men and women is equivalent to a hatred of all women.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Gewehr98 on February 25, 2014, 11:08:52 PM
Balog, you should search through Rooster's postings sometime.

You'll notice a not-so-subtle pattern.

I know we did.

Remind me to nominate you for the next admin slot. 

Maybe the one I'll vacate...

Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Balog on February 25, 2014, 11:25:22 PM
Balog, you should search through Rooster's postings sometime.

You'll notice a not-so-subtle pattern.

I know we did.

Remind me to nominate you for the next admin slot. 

Maybe the one I'll vacate...



I don't always like or agree with what he posts, but I haven't seen anything that indicates hatred for women. Hatred being one of those pesky words that have meanings. Believing that men and women are fundamentally different and suited for different things is not hatred. He'll, even if you could demonstrate a pattern of believing women to be inferior in his postings (which I don't know that you could) that's still not hatred. I'd say the people posting raunchy pictures and talking about women like glorified sex objects are closer to that mark than Roo.

It vexes me greatly when people accuse someone of hating or being irrationally afraid of someone or something when what they really mean is "I find your views offensive." It's a hostile and intellectually bankrupt form of argumentation.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: tokugawa on February 26, 2014, 12:23:23 AM
Yeah, I'm totally expecting Syria to take a break from the massive civil war killing thousands on each side, and try to conjure up some delivery mechanism here. Knowing that if they do, they'll cease to exist.

 Oh, it may not be Syria- who knows who, or what, it will be be- I have no idea- the Syria thing is just an example-  the point is, the technological lever is getting longer by the minute, , the attack will be completely off the radar, dramatically asymmetrical, and devastating.  Just exactly like 9-11, only different, and much worse. And very likely to multifaceted, and sequential.
 
And the people in charge will be caught out the same way-unable to put two and two together. . And the likelihood is, no one is gonna know for sure for some time who is responsible. So the response is not going to be quick, especially under the ditherer in chief.
 
 I hope like hell I am totally wrong.

 

 

 

 
 
 

 
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Scout26 on February 26, 2014, 09:24:36 AM
Joint service operations should continue, as started previously.

A lot of the former Air Force bases I haunted have become Joint Service Bases.

That's good.  There's so much redundancy between services that offer no good purpose.

Hell, we have how many different versions of the Sikorsky helicopter?  

UH-60 Black Hawk/HH-60 Pave Hawk/HH-60 Jay Hawk/SH-60 Sea Hawk - I know they're modded for each branch, but wow!

Air Force jets like the F-4, F-15, F-16, F-22 etc. have had tailhooks, and they will take a wire on the approach end during IFE landings.  

They may or may not have the strengthened landing gear for carrier landings,  but were it not for political infighting I could see a common fighter between USAF/USN/USMC.

The F-35 is common in name only.  I don't know what the percentages are of parts commonality, but three separate variants for three different perceived missions means $$$.

When the EF-111 Raven was retired, they started doing Joint Service EA-6B Prowler sorties with mixed USAF/USN/USMC crews.  

Look at our neighbors to the north - they took it to the extreme.  Canada has no separate branches of service anymore, they're all just Canadian Forces.  

I'm not saying we should go to that level of consolidation, but it should be studied and exploited.

And I still think an A-10 is a better tank-buster and close air support aircraft than any F-16/F-18/F-35.  

I think the F-4 Phantom & UH-60 prove that.  While there are some advantages to having the "same" thing through out the services, the operational environments make it too difficult to have "The Exact Same Thing".   The airframe and landing gear requirements (among others) for carrier operations are simply not needed for USAF operations and serve no purpose other then to add unnecessary weight that could be better used for fuel or ordnance.   Taking something like radio, individual and crew served weapons and the like and making them universal across the services has been and should be continued. 

And I do like the idea of "purple suits".  However, there will still specialty skills where you just can't put a round peg into a square hole.  Pilots, doctors, and the like.   And while some may howl, you can teach Army officers on Amphib operations (FYi, the Army conducted/participated in more Amphib operations then the Marines.)  It's simply inertia and tradition that keep things the way they are.  One supply, maintenance and other systems make a helluva lot more sense then 4 or 5.  But since everyone wants their own little empire, it probably will take a very long time for it to happen.     
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: MillCreek on February 26, 2014, 09:56:25 AM
^^^ I read an article just the other day about the tremendous expense, duplication of effort and inefficiency in having each service maintain its own medical system (hospitals and clinics, not field).  The military system already sends people to other branch facilities for specialty medical care, and it is being argued that different branch facilities should consolidate.  The problem, at least in the hospitals, is nursing/support staffing.  Most of them are civilians since there are not enough corpsmen or nurses to go around.  Consolidation may not cut those personnel costs by a lot.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: Tallpine on February 26, 2014, 11:04:48 AM
Quote
The chances of anyone building up anything resembling an invasion fleet would get noticed far enough ahead of time for us to build up our defenses

Defenses  ???

Is there some reason we need to let them land before fighting?

Don't nukes work on water?
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: T.O.M. on February 26, 2014, 12:17:43 PM
There's so much redundancy between services that offer no good purpose.

Not just equipment, but facilities and personnel as well.  Why does each of the three branches need its own Medical Corps?  Why does each have a separate and distinct JAG Corps and judicial system? 

Then again, I find this to be true not just in the military, but throughout .gov.  Why does every agency the uses initials have its own investigative unit, often complete with armed federal LEOs and (all too often) tactical teams.  When I did an internship with the Justice Department 20 years ago, I was amazed by the sheer number of different "Criminal Investigation Divisions" belonging to the various agencies. I don't mean just things like DEA and BATF, I mean like Department of Education, Department of Agriculture, etc.  Why not dump all of this into the FBI, and increase the number of Special Agents if the demand warrants? 

Back to the OP, I've been reading that the push-back has begun in Congress.  at first I figured it was the typical fight to keep the pork protected, for job security.  but I read some of what we're saying, especially about the A-10.  Why cut an aircraft at this point when its possible replacement has yet to prove itself, and the A-10 is a known quality asset for close air support, which is still in need until everyone comes home?
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: SADShooter on February 26, 2014, 01:12:54 PM
Not just equipment, but facilities and personnel as well.  Why does each of the three branches need its own Medical Corps?  Why does each have a separate and distinct JAG Corps and judicial system? 

Then again, I find this to be true not just in the military, but throughout .gov.  Why does every agency the uses initials have its own investigative unit, often complete with armed federal LEOs and (all too often) tactical teams.  When I did an internship with the Justice Department 20 years ago, I was amazed by the sheer number of different "Criminal Investigation Divisions" belonging to the various agencies. I don't mean just things like DEA and BATF, I mean like Department of Education, Department of Agriculture, etc.  Why not dump all of this into the FBI, and increase the number of Special Agents if the demand warrants? 

Back to the OP, I've been reading that the push-back has begun in Congress.  at first I figured it was the typical fight to keep the pork protected, for job security.  but I read some of what we're saying, especially about the A-10.  Why cut an aircraft at this point when its possible replacement has yet to prove itself, and the A-10 is a known quality asset for close air support, which is still in need until everyone comes home?

More tribes = more chiefs and associated leadership positions.

Existing airframe does not bring new defense appropriations back to committee chair's/ranking mmeber's districts. If budgets do actually shrink, this becomes even more vital.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: MillCreek on February 26, 2014, 01:22:55 PM
Somewhat on topic, but the F-35 problems are giving me the willies, from the standpoint of having working and affordable aircraft out to the fleet anytime soon.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: French G. on February 26, 2014, 02:06:15 PM
I'm wondering if we will see a reduction in flag ranks to pre-WWII levels. Not likely as the Navy has more admirals for 330,000 than we had for 3 some million back in the day.

My big issue is personnel costs. For all the political pandering, there will eventually have to be decreases in the rate of increase to pension COLA as well as active duty pay. Hopefully someone will transition all new military hires to a TSP only retirement, probably have to activate the provision for paying a matching share. And while I don't want a return to a conscript military we need to seriously cut the wagon train down. I'm all for making it E-5/O-3 required to marry. It was an outmoded practice in 1996, but I put in a request chit to get married, not so much for permission as to advise the CoC. The military has been very good to me, and many others, just need to trim some of the fat. I remember catching a contract flight from Norfolk to Rota to meet my new ship. I was expecting a plane full of military. No, it was about a dozen mil and 150 family members of servicemembers returning to the ETO. Then I spent a good bit of time at a Naval hospital. Man, we spend a ton of money on families. The fact that 10 of my 13.8 years active duty were spent haze grey and underway kinda of insulated me from seeing a lot of that. My one shore duty stop, loved my squadron, hated everything else associated by being right next to the flagpole.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: RevDisk on February 26, 2014, 02:38:47 PM

Personally, I think we should have Fleet and Land Forces. Fleet is anything that floats or goes vroom vroom really fast. Land Forces (or whatever) has all the tanks, arty, whatnot. Everything joint that is humanly possible. Basic, clerks, food folks, medical, bases, etc.


MillCreek, as bad as it seems, it's actually much worse in reality. Good news is they're starting to get deliveries. But considering how much they cost, it's jaw dropping. I wouldn't want to fly that airframe for at least five years.
Title: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
Post by: roo_ster on February 26, 2014, 03:30:59 PM
Balog:

Gotta remember, we live in a progressive, post-modern culture.  "Misogyny" means whatever the accuser wants it to mean, not what some silly dictionary says it is ( http://www.thefreedictionary.com/misogyny ).  OTOH, if it can mean anything, it really means nothing, so the accusation lacks any content.

In G98 we got ourselves someone perfectly suited for the contemporary political climate in the armed forces brass-toting ranks.  As fine a candidate for an aide to General Casey as could be found.  Bravo, he should be proud to be so fashionable and suitable for such rarefied company.

Quote from: http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/general-warns-diversity-may-be-casual
Again, I think that's something else we need to be very careful about, and I think the speculation could potentially heighten backlash against some of our Muslim soldiers. And what happened at Fort Hood was a tragedy, but I believe it would be an even greater tragedy if our diversity becomes a casualty here. And it's not just about Muslims. We have a very diverse army. We have a very diverse society.

IOW, diversity uber alles.  Standards, performance, force effectiveness, unit morale & cohesiveness, biological reality, budget impacts, casualties in lots of 13 or less...all secondary to political considerations and the opportunity to morally preen about it in front of an audience.  Remember, "...it would be an even greater tragedy if our diversity becomes a casualty here." 


G98:

A reasonable man might want to take into consideration that some tasks in the armed forces take place outside of a cockpit.  That biology is not a conspiracy and that raising substantive objections to foolish and potentially disastrous actions is not hatred.   But, this is not about reason, is it?  Ideology and emotion are impervious to reason or data and can lead folk to intemperate remarks.  Besides, it just feels good to be the one launching the accusations, doesn't it?  Gets you all wound up like a Baptist inveighing against that demon rum.     

"I say it as a graduate of the DoD Equal Opportunity Management Institute."  Did you get a certificate as nice as the one I got from AAA for being their customer for 25 years?  I had mine framed and put on my "I love me wall."  Such moral authority it brings to your pronouncements!  And what a sweet acronym (DODEOMI, "doady oh my!).  I get all choked up reading it.  Lemme go back and read it again...oh yeah...there is the lump in my throat.  Or is that my gorge rising?

And you met an actual female firefighter who was in excellent physical shape?  Do tell, as I have never had the opportunity to train female power lifters & olympic-style weightlifters, train with female kickboxers, date female body builders or female Div I college athletes, or otherwise have any contact with exceptionally athletic women.