Author Topic: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels  (Read 7854 times)

RevDisk

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Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2014, 01:47:49 PM »
If we get hit by a heavyweight actor, it is going to be over in days or weeks.  They still know what war is.
It will be all in. They will blind us, cripple us and kill us. There will no no ramping up time at all.

Uhm, no. By "no", I mean absolutely no chance in hell. By "absolutely no chance in hell", I mean "Even if they really really tried and broke all of the rules... it still wouldn't happen". By "Even if they really really tried and broke all of the rules... it still wouldn't happen", I mean "Yea.... No."

 ;)

What heavyweight actor? You have EU, Russia and China. Brazil, NK and India wouldn't have a shot in hell even if they gave AK47's to every citizen and magically teleported them to the US. EU isn't going to invade. Russia doesn't have the economic resources, isn't stupid enough to want to do so and is aware that the SOLE military object we're more than ready to implement is a good Cold War inspired nuking. China is making money hand over fist from us. They might want to take Taiwan, but definitely not the US mainland. In any event, the EU, Russia and China would need a massive build up for even a limited war with the US.

There is only ONE heavyweight that would be capable of implementing what you say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQeILlfdR-s
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Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2014, 01:48:52 PM »
  If we get hit by a heavyweight actor, it is going to be over in days or weeks.  They still know what war is.
 It will be all in. They will blind us, cripple us and kill us. There will no no ramping up time at all.

How? If someone nuked us, we'd nuke them back. Other than that, no country has the capability to project force onto our mainland.

Not trying to be dismissive, just no idea how you see that happening.
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RevDisk

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Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2014, 01:50:35 PM »
How? If someone nuked us, we'd nuke them back. Other than that, no country has the capability to project force onto our mainland.

Not trying to be dismissive, just no idea how you see that happening.

See my link. There is one entity that could. It's the only heavyweight actor capable of doing so. Likely the heavyweight tokugawa had in mind.
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Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2014, 01:57:45 PM »
Uhm, no. By "no", I mean absolutely no chance in hell. By "absolutely no chance in hell", I mean "Even if they really really tried and broke all of the rules... it still wouldn't happen". By "Even if they really really tried and broke all of the rules... it still wouldn't happen", I mean "Yea.... No."

 ;)

What heavyweight actor? You have EU, Russia and China. Brazil, NK and India wouldn't have a shot in hell even if they gave AK47's to every citizen and magically teleported them to the US. EU isn't going to invade. Russia doesn't have the economic resources, isn't stupid enough to want to do so and is aware that the SOLE military object we're more than ready to implement is a good Cold War inspired nuking. China is making money hand over fist from us. They might want to take Taiwan, but definitely not the US mainland. In any event, the EU, Russia and China would need a massive build up for even a limited war with the US.

There is only ONE heavyweight that would be capable of implementing what you say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQeILlfdR-s


You're kidding.   

I think you are underestimating what future developments will bring.    I probably won't be around then but depending on how old you are now, you very well might. 
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Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2014, 02:22:48 PM »
I think it is a bit funny that some people who complain about .gov spending money it doesn't have are now up in arms because it is cutting costs.  I'll admit, there are many things I'd like to see cut long before taking a knife to the DOD budget, but having once worn a uniform, I know that there is a lot of fat in the DOD budget.  That said, I think cutting the A-10 because it is a tank buster is just plain ignorant, because it overlooks the aircraft capability for close air support ops.

Honestly, I wonder how long it will be until someone has a serious thought about closing West Point, Annapolis, the Air Force Academy, and the Coast guard Academy, or in some way consolidating the programs...maybe move the Coasties in with the Squids, and put the Zoomies back with the Cadets.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

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RevDisk

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Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2014, 02:29:32 PM »
You're kidding. 

I think you are underestimating what future developments will bring.    I probably won't be around then but depending on how old you are now, you very well might. 

Less kidding than the original poster. We will face future problems.

India might advance to a world power and become belligerent. That's no sooner than 20-50 years.
China may abandon a focus on economic growth to military conquest. That'd take 5-20 years to implement.
Russia may form an ethnic Slavic variation of the USSR. That'd take 10-30 years.
Islamic states may unify to become another Caliphate or Ottoman Empire. That'd take decades or centuries.
Iran may merge with Iraq to become Persia again.
Africa could unite into one state. Or become China's sepoy.

*shrug*

Even any of those major changes would mean very little. Raids or attacks, sure. The implications of full on invasions would range from hilarious to annoying, worrisome is not in the cards. The ONLY possibility of foreign invasion is if we have a Civil War, and opportunistic foreign forces got involved. It's possible, but I'd still bet my money on America xenophobia outweighing huge scale collaboration. This is not a Matt Bracken book, we're talking about the real world.
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Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2014, 02:36:21 PM »
Yeah, I don't think all the AD Armor/Mech is going away.   They just shipped a battalions worth back to Europe after 2CR got their azzes handed to them in a recent NATO exercise.  Seems that Strykers can't go toe-to-toe with heavy armor.   Who knew?  ;/ ;/ :facepalm: :facepalm:

Maybe some folks who did initial ops analysis back when Shinseki proposed such a critter?   ;)

Don't get me wrong, SBCT brings more and more mobile combat power to the table than light infantry.  If it were truly air mobile and ready to rock on landing it would be a terrific asset and just the thing to bring in after the Rangers secure your airfields.  But you would have to be a fool to think it can be used like armored or cav units can & ought to be used.

Oh, the SBCT can DEFEND against heavy armor...if it has time to deploy and break out the multitudinous Javelins.  And if the terrain is reasonably amenable.  Pushing tarted up LAVs Strykers against real armor is a fine way to generate tons of scrap metal.

If I'm understanding that correctly... That is insane, to put it mildly. ALL armor brigades going to the NG? I think a lot higher of the NG than a lot of folks, but having ZERO active duty armor brigades is nuts. You'd want some for Korea, at a minimum, and a couple more in case of a smaller power losing their marbles. Between this and the DoD betting damn near everything on the F-35, we're going to be in a very rough patch. The only plus side is the Navy is doing well, we have 10 active carriers and two in reserve. 

We'll be in short straights with virtually no heavy armor and restricted fighter airframes across all of the services. Only plus side is that the US is unlikely to be invaded. Canada and Mexico don't exactly have a lot of offensive military capacity.

Yes, you have understood correctly. 

Obviously it has not been done yet, but this is a real possibility.

The idea is:
1. Reorient to Pacific.
2. All Pacific action will be amenable to Spec Ops and light infantry solutions.
3. Cut & gut like crazy.

Yeah, the F35.  Not sure I want to give up our hardest-hitting ground attack aircraft (A10) until the F35 has proved itself in numbers.  Meanwhile, we will fly the best 1970s air superiority aircraft (F15) and the best 1980s light fighter (F16).  And a few F22s. 

I think it is a bit funny that some people who complain about .gov spending money it doesn't have are now up in arms because it is cutting costs.  I'll admit, there are many things I'd like to see cut long before taking a knife to the DOD budget, but having once worn a uniform, I know that there is a lot of fat in the DOD budget.  That said, I think cutting the A-10 because it is a tank buster is just plain ignorant, because it overlooks the aircraft capability for close air support ops.

Honestly, I wonder how long it will be until someone has a serious thought about closing West Point, Annapolis, the Air Force Academy, and the Coast guard Academy, or in some way consolidating the programs...maybe move the Coasties in with the Squids, and put the Zoomies back with the Cadets.

1. The cost cutting proposed is rather foolish and sub-optimal.  This has been seen on the horizon for some time and planned for such that as much combat power was preserved.  Those plans are being junked in favor of maximizing the loss of combat power and minimizing the loss of overhead.
2. Spending money on hardware and then dumping the hardware in the middle of the Atlantic is less harmful than our social programs.
3. Stacking the cash in a great pyramid like the Joker and setting it on fire is less harmful than spending it on social programs.
4. Army is in such a screwed up place vis a vis its civvie employees, I do not even know where to begin.  I can go to PM here, or preferably a dim location where alcoholic beverages are served for some detail.
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TommyGunn

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Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2014, 02:50:01 PM »
I think it is a bit funny that some people who complain about .gov spending money it doesn't have are now up in arms because it is cutting costs.  I'll admit, there are many things I'd like to see cut long before taking a knife to the DOD budget, but having once worn a uniform, I know that there is a lot of fat in the DOD budget.  That said, I think cutting the A-10 because it is a tank buster is just plain ignorant, because it overlooks the aircraft capability for close air support ops.

Honestly, I wonder how long it will be until someone has a serious thought about closing West Point, Annapolis, the Air Force Academy, and the Coast guard Academy, or in some way consolidating the programs...maybe move the Coasties in with the Squids, and put the Zoomies back with the Cadets.


Your point is meritorious.
But, once we get past the superficial enmities between right <>left wing politics, or Republican VS. Democrat, the fact is there are a lot of programs (mostly ENTITLEMENTS) that are really driving our debt and those need to be dealt with.  But neither side is...though I suppose the repubs could point out how hard it is to lead "from behind" (though Obama seems to prefer this insofar as military escapades are concerned) and the demorats are claiming austerity is over, it didn't work, and we need to spend bazillions more.
National defense is one thing the Constitution provides for.  Certainly we need less paperpusher types in the Pentagon ....maybe less BRASS (!) and procurement systems need fixing (F-35 :mad:)
We need to be far smarter at the top.

I see no country that currently has the ability to invade America.  England did it once in the War of 1812 and were kind enough to send our kongresskritters scattering to the hills (remind me to send the Quen a belated Thank You letter) when high tech warships were wind powered. 
China has a humongus military but no way to get it here, despite RED DAWN movies that were altered to show North Koreans (with EVEN LESS ability) invasion forces.   And China likely has no interest (right now) in any invasion.
But things change ... in a few generations, China may be far better able to project power.   Will it still own so much of our national debt or will it have sold off what it had?   How will the leaders feel about international politics when today's babies are full grown adults rearing children of their own?
Or India?
Or Russia?  Putin seems desirous of putting the USSR back together.   
Does anyone think Obama's gonna stop him? :rofl:

Fun times ahead for sure. [popcorn]
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Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2014, 04:44:06 PM »
So why does He keep trying to start new wars every 15 minutes  ???

How better to destroy this countries power, alienate our allies and any "friends" we have in the world.  We spend money on wars, social programs and whatever else he can think up, that we don't have. 
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Fitz

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Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2014, 05:46:02 PM »
  If we get hit by a heavyweight actor, it is going to be over in days or weeks.  They still know what war is.
 It will be all in. They will blind us, cripple us and kill us. There will no no ramping up time at all.

LOL
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Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2014, 06:14:30 PM »
I agree with Chris, I neither think nor believe that we need a WWII sized or even Cold War sized military.  But what we do need is a balance of Heavy and Light Forces with an eye towards the Pacific, however that will probably not be where the next fight takes place.

The chances of anyone building up anything resembling an invasion fleet would get noticed far enough ahead of time for us to build up our defenses (again barring Gawdzirra, Mothra or any such like).

There is no need for any land units in Germany other then to play footsie with our NATO allies.  One Combined Arms Task Force (call it a Cav Squardon + Arty and other slice elements) at Graf/Vilseck or Baumholder* with some supporting ash and trash units is all the land force we need there.  Ramstein and Landstuhl with Mobility Command and Medical are needed, but not much else.   Naval bases/access throughout the world should be a given.   Korea gives me the heebie-jeebies.  I want to put more forces there, but I don't want them to go *poof* in a mushroom cloud.  Downsizing Okinawa is a mistake but we need some place close but not too close that makes a small target.  (Even if Guam won't tip over and sink.  ;))

We don't need that large of an Active force, but we should expand the Guard/Reserve simply so that should the balloon in someway, go up.  We at least have folks that know which end of the tube the round comes out of.   We will have time to prepare to counterstrike, because unless they strike at us directly, we're going to leave them alone.

Yeah, and someone needs to reduce headcount in the Pentagon and every other Major headquarters by 30%.  To start with.



*Baumholder being ~30km from Ramstein while Graf/Vilseck is a couple of hours away, that would continue to reduce our Footprint there.  However, the Germans "own" Baumholder and we own Graf/Hohenfels.  Not sure how to work out that trade as Graf has nicer ranges and Hohenfels is almost to level of NTC when comes to force on force training. 
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Fitz

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Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2014, 06:51:06 PM »
Posting in here because it's related. The TX national guard apparently has no use for an infantry E6 with combat time, drill sergeant badge, and outstanding NCOERs.


It looks like I may be leaving the guard.
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Fitz

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Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2014, 07:18:28 PM »
Yeah, it will be funny as hell. 
http://www.newenglishreview.org/Jerry_Gordon/Syria%27s_Bio-Warfare_Threat%3A_an_interview_with_Dr._Jill_Dekker/

Yeah, I'm totally expecting Syria to take a break from the massive civil war killing thousands on each side, and try to conjure up some delivery mechanism here. Knowing that if they do, they'll cease to exist.
Fitz

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Fitz

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Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2014, 07:23:17 PM »
Even with the cuts, we'll have the highest defense spending in the world by a fair margin.

What they're doing is not smart, they're cutting the wrong things.

But it's hardly going to lead to us getting ROFLstomped anytime soon

Stop with the fearmongering. It doesn't suit the denizens of this board
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Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2014, 07:32:17 PM »
Yeah, it will be funny as hell. 
http://www.newenglishreview.org/Jerry_Gordon/Syria%27s_Bio-Warfare_Threat%3A_an_interview_with_Dr._Jill_Dekker/

Use of a significant bio-weapon would decimate the entire world population, aside from areas so remote that they have means of projecting force beyond their borders. So, while it could conceivably bring on tikiwiki it wouldn't be an effective means of warfare. It's like a nuke that you where every one you drop on your enemy, you also drop one on yourself.
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TommyGunn

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Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2014, 07:37:15 PM »
Even with the cuts, we'll have the highest defense spending in the world by a fair margin.

What they're doing is not smart, they're cutting the wrong things.

But it's hardly going to lead to us getting ROFLstomped anytime soon

Stop with the fearmongering. It doesn't suit the denizens of this board

Given who is in the oval office I should think fearmongering would be an improvement. [tinfoil] :angel:
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roo_ster

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Re: Re: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2014, 07:39:34 PM »
Posting in here because it's related. The TX national guard apparently has no use for an infantry E6 with combat time, drill sergeant badge, and outstanding NCOERs.


It looks like I may be leaving the guard.

Got your jump wings?  They have an airborne unit.
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Re: Re: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2014, 07:55:29 PM »
Got your jump wings?  They have an airborne unit.

All the 11b slots in the LRS unit and the cav close to me require ranger school.

Not happening. Even if i was in the shape to do it.

OTOH, the reserves are dying for qualified drill sergeants, and I liked serving in the 95th div.

We'll see what happens. the IST coordinator is "trying to find me a slot"

It shouldn't be so goddamn hard. But then again, THIS unit HAS a vacancy, and the NCOIC and commander WANTED me, and TX said no.

I don't get it
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Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2014, 09:14:11 PM »
Quote
Well, as long as we get the openly fruity and women into infantry units while reducing standards, it will be worth it.  Because the .mil was originally created so that a slim minority of cultural marxists could bugger it silly while forcing it to salute the flag.  Great for laughs all around.

Yup.  Damned near as funny as the misogynists we have here on APS.   ;)
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RevDisk

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Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2014, 09:14:25 PM »
Even with the cuts, we'll have the highest defense spending in the world by a fair margin.

What they're doing is not smart, they're cutting the wrong things.

But it's hardly going to lead to us getting ROFLstomped anytime soon

Stop with the fearmongering. It doesn't suit the denizens of this board

This, in a nutshell. We can do boat tons of cuts. Hell, we could do cuts and increase operational efficiency. They're just cutting the wrong things. There's still no one that can cross the ocean and invade the US.

We desperately need to make changes to the DoD procurement system. We need to gut the DoD civvie side. As rooster said, that's a ten hour drinking session by itself. Hell, DoD IT is a gorram mess.
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Re: Re: Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2014, 09:23:20 PM »
Yup.  Damned near as funny as the misogynists we have here on APS.   ;)

You say misogynist like its a bad thing

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Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2014, 09:42:40 PM »
Joint service operations should continue, as started previously.

A lot of the former Air Force bases I haunted have become Joint Service Bases.

That's good.  There's so much redundancy between services that offer no good purpose.

Hell, we have how many different versions of the Sikorsky helicopter?  

UH-60 Black Hawk/HH-60 Pave Hawk/HH-60 Jay Hawk/SH-60 Sea Hawk - I know they're modded for each branch, but wow!

Air Force jets like the F-4, F-15, F-16, F-22 etc. have had tailhooks, and they will take a wire on the approach end during IFE landings.  

They may or may not have the strengthened landing gear for carrier landings,  but were it not for political infighting I could see a common fighter between USAF/USN/USMC.

The F-35 is common in name only.  I don't know what the percentages are of parts commonality, but three separate variants for three different perceived missions means $$$.

When the EF-111 Raven was retired, they started doing Joint Service EA-6B Prowler sorties with mixed USAF/USN/USMC crews.  

Look at our neighbors to the north - they took it to the extreme.  Canada has no separate branches of service anymore, they're all just Canadian Forces.  

I'm not saying we should go to that level of consolidation, but it should be studied and exploited.

And I still think an A-10 is a better tank-buster and close air support aircraft than any F-16/F-18/F-35.  
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Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2014, 09:44:51 PM »
Use of a significant bio-weapon would decimate the entire world population, aside from areas so remote that they have means of projecting force beyond their borders. So, while it could conceivably bring on tikiwiki it wouldn't be an effective means of warfare. It's like a nuke that you where every one you drop on your enemy, you also drop one on yourself.

It's also something that's extremely difficult to pull off. You have to engineer something that is deadly enough to not easily be treated, but not so deadly as to kill its host before it can spread to other people, not to mention perfecting the delivery mechanism. That is an extremely fine line to walk, and I seriously doubt that the bunch of primitives in the Middle East could pull it off.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 09:49:21 PM by Regolith »
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Gewehr98

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Re: Pentagon set to reduce Army to pre-WWII levels
« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2014, 09:52:15 PM »
Quote
You say misogynist like its a bad thing

Wrong.

I say it as a graduate of the DoD Equal Opportunity Management Institute.

I've deployed with female B-52, P-3, and WC-135 aircrew who I would fly to hell and back with, in a New York Minute.

I'm proud to have served with them, regardless of the configuration of their organic plumbing.

I've also met USAF female firefighters who have no problem hauling my carcass out of a burning wreck.  

I'm sure there are those who have less physical strength than others, be it guys or gals.

I have no time for misogyny.  

It's an obsolete mindset that harkens back to segregation days, and means nothing when we have female troops out there every day on the pointy end of the spear - Right Friggin' Now.
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

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