Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Northwoods on May 25, 2014, 06:02:25 PM
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We're about to buy a used trailer so that we can haul luggage, bikes, kayaks, etc when ona family road trip. Empty weight is probably aound 500# and it has a 3000lb axel. It currently is not equipped with brakes. I'd like to add some. Most common tow vehicle will be our 2008 Seinna.
I've read mixed reviews on electric vs hydraulic surge setups. What says the APS hivemind?
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Electric brakes.
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Electric brakes work great. Till they stop working . Surge brakes are less inclined to go away. My horse trailer has both. Just in case. Electrics have the advantage of being easily adjustable and on the fly. Many folks say its paranoid to put brakes on a small trailer. I am not one of those folks. Electric brakes need a controller in car/van.
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Do you really need brakes for that light a load?Are you planning on hauling scrap metal or fullsize motorcycles,snowmobiles,lots of antique furniture,or anything that comes close to reaching your vans GCWR?
For your stated purpose I wouldn't worry about it.
A 500lb.trailer with even 1000lbs of stuff should still be un-noticeable behind your van.3000lbs would be what,about 100 loaded to the max suitcases?IOWs,it takes a LOT of stuff to even reach 1k.
Make sure your tires(make sure you have a spare!),wheel bearings,and lights are A.O.K.
You'll be fine.
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Yeah, with that light of a trailer/load brakes would be overkill. I pulled a 3K+ boat with my clapped out '92 Cherokee and really couldn't tell it was there. You just have to be sure to give yourself plenty of extra room and time for braking. If brakes would make you feel better go ahead though.
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Drive like you have a trailer back, instead of acting like most people, and I wouldn't worry about brakes on a trailer/load that light.
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That small of a load, I wouldn't bother. Electric ones if you must. Easy-ish install too.
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Never used a surge brake. I like electrics for the ability to trim out a swaying trailer. A little manual application of just the trailer brake straightens things out. I once towed a 24 ft trailer that well out-weighed the tow vehicle and came with fun aero characteristics to boot. I steered as much with the brake box as the wheel.
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I've never really understood (or bothered to try) electric trailer brakes. Aren't they basically ON/OFF? Surge brakes I understand -- the faster the tow vehicle slows, the more forward pressure the trailer applies to the master cylinder and the more brakes get applied to the trailer.
Works for me. And no diddling with the tow vehicle's wiring. The brakes work the same no matter what vehicle is pulling the trailer.
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I've never really understood (or bothered to try) electric trailer brakes. Aren't they basically ON/OFF? Surge brakes I understand -- the faster the tow vehicle slows, the more forward pressure the trailer applies to the master cylinder and the more brakes get applied to the trailer.
Works for me. And no diddling with the tow vehicle's wiring. The brakes work the same no matter what vehicle is pulling the trailer.
Yes and no.
Think of them more like a potentiometer; variable degrees of "on"
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That small of a load, I wouldn't bother. Electric ones if you must. Easy-ish install too.
Too light of a load and the brakes lock up and tires with chirp a lot when stopping.
Under 2000k I don't even worry about brakes.
I looked it up, your sienna has a max towing capacity of 3500# with a proper receiver hitch and transmission oil cooler. 1200# without the oil cooler.
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I've never really understood (or bothered to try) electric trailer brakes. Aren't they basically ON/OFF? Surge brakes I understand -- the faster the tow vehicle slows, the more forward pressure the trailer applies to the master cylinder and the more brakes get applied to the trailer.
Works for me. And no diddling with the tow vehicle's wiring. The brakes work the same no matter what vehicle is pulling the trailer.
No.
To amplify on the electric brakes for you:
I put an electric trailer brake controller on my truck for the 4-horse trailer, which already had electric brakes on it.
They work like this (or at least mine did):
You intercept the brake line so the hydraulic brake pressure activates a piston in the controller (yeah, requires cutting and placing a tee in the line and brake bleeding and all that).
This piston gradually pushes a curved electrode down on a long resistance coil... like the heat coils in a hair dryer and the like.
So as brake hydraulic pressure increases, the curved electrode contacts the resistance wire at a lower and lower resistance point, so more and more current is applied to the magnetic trailer brakes.
This gradually changes the current going to the magnetic brakes on the trailer to correspond to the braking in the vehicle.
You could adjust the curved electrode contact point with a screw affair to regulate for different loads.
They worked great, but I was pulling a four horse trailer with four horses in it.
This was in 1975 or so. I imagine modern ones are solid-state controlled instead of with a mechanical resistance wire, but the principle would be the same.
Just FWIW FYI.
Hope that helps.
Terry
PS. Let's remember that long-haul trailering of horses tires them out because they are constantly shifting around to compensate for turns and stops and starts. In addition, they may be affected by the exhaust fumes from the vehicle. Of course, boats don't care about that. So if you're going to a gymkhana or a rodeo or a trail ride, or a hunt, give the animals a chance to rest up and recover before demanding too much from them.
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Newer ones don't have a brake line pressure sensor. Its a box you mount under the dash and you set it to what percentage of braking power do you want. Most of them have a pendulum inside them that can sense how fast you are trying to stop.
When I pull my 4500# camper I set my box to 65% and I can stop just as well as I can without the trailer. They don't go to 65% right away, but from 0-to brakes on it about a second.
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Surge breaks are the work of the devil.
I'll second thatb the trailer is too light to worry about breaks. Unless your going to towing it loaded all day every day the wear on the car breaks won't even offset the cost of putting breaks on the trailer, rewiring it, and installing a break controller in the car.
I towed 16,000 pounds once without working breaks, that was to much weight. Stopping was not an option.
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Don't bother with that small of a load. Instead, put the cash into making sure your tow vehicle brakes are up to snuff.
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Don't bother with that small of a load. Instead, put the cash into making sure your tow vehicle brakes are up to snuff.
This. A full brake service, including system flush, with good non-bargain-bin pads at the very least. If you're going to trailer up a lot you might even consider upgrading rotors and possibly calipers. Stay away from drilled/slotted rotors. You want as much rotor mass as you can get for the heat dissipation. Most mfgs have a severe duty rotor and pad offering. How far you take it is up to you.
Brad
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Somewhere or another, I read that front braking power did 60+% of the slowdown.
100% of the total weight, and momentum, of your vehicle is behind those front tires. On greasy/slippery/icey traction conditions, that is not a good thing. Your vehicle, plus whatever is in it, and the total weight of the trailing vehicle is trying very hard to go fwd. Sometines momentum trumps stoping effectiveness of the lead steering and drive axles. Then what happens is a sititation where the back wheels outrun the front wheels. Most folks are used to calling that a 'jacknife'. When that happens, there is not a lot of driver control of where the future crash is traveling.
If you have a trailing vehicle, or two, braking power should be applied back to front. The lead trailing vehicle should be heavier than the second trailing vehicle.
Because your one ton P.U. can pull, at speed, 2000lbs and tow 20,000 more on a fifth wheel, does not mean that the vehicle (s) can stop normally.
Consider tire chains, they allow us to go fwd, but not nearly as effective at stoping.
salty
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That light of a trailer you don't need brakes.
If you get a trailer big enough to need brakes, then you better get a truck* to pull it with ;)
*considering that there is no such thing anymore as a full size RWD car
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*considering that there is no such thing anymore as a full size RWD car
Dodge Charger and Chrysler 300 are both full sized RWD vehicles.
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Dodge Charger and Chrysler 300 are both full sized RWD vehicles.
Well, go ahead and buy one to pull a 4-horse trailer if that is what you prefer :lol:
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Well, go ahead and buy one to pull a 4-horse trailer if that is what you prefer :lol:
Like a 1978 Chevy Caprice could do that.
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Like a 1978 Chevy Caprice could do that.
Actually a lot of people did pull pretty big trailers with the cars of that era, equipped with equalizer hitches. (not that it would be my first choice [3/4 ton ++], but full size cars and half ton pickups shared a lot of parts back then)
But of course you won't remember that :lol:
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Equalizer hitches, transmission cooler, and radiator overflow/recovery system would complete the package.
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Like a 1978 Chevy Caprice could do that.
Actually, it could and did. 350/350 model. My cousin had one that went to many a horse show, with 3-4 horses at any given weekend. I drove it to a dignified end in demolition derby in 2000.
Good car, a shame that Ohio winters pretty much ate the frame.
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Actually, it could and did. 350/350 model. My cousin had one that went to many a horse show, with 3-4 horses at any given weekend. I drove it to a dignified end in demolition derby in 2000.
Good car, a shame that Ohio winters pretty much ate the frame.
The late 70's 350 only had 180 HP. Granted the Caprice/Impala has a 6k towing capacity, it would be a dog pulling a load that heavy.
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Actually a lot of people did pull pretty big trailers with the cars of that era, equipped with equalizer hitches. (not that it would be my first choice [3/4 ton ++], but full size cars and half ton pickups shared a lot of parts back then)
But of course you won't remember that :lol:
I know I used to own a few of those vehicles from the 60's and 70's.
You get a nice 40mph cross wind on a 5-7k camper/horse trailer and that car will be whipped all over the road.
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I know I used to own a few of those vehicles from the 60's and 70's.
You get a nice 40mph cross wind on a 5-7k camper/horse trailer and that car will be whipped all over the road.
Ya had to be tuff back in those days ;)
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Drag chutes and a large hook plow mounted to the back on hydraulic actuators so you can drop anchor remotely.
Or just wrap detcord around the axle. Once the wheels are off, brakes don't matter.
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A lot of people pulled big trailers with cars back in those days.
One reason that fifth wheel trailers took such a long time catching on was that you had to have a pickup to pull it. People wanted a luxury car for their vacation. Nowadays pickups are fancier than cars.
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One reason that fifth wheel trailers took such a long time catching on was that you had to have a pickup to pull it.
And this didn't catch on too well . . . :
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fh6ptp5a.jpg&hash=4ccfd6aeb1b54b50befe937912079519b23e389a)
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Nah, I want Jetto's rig from Highwayman.
(Now let's see who remembers that show.)
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A lot of people pulled big trailers with cars back in those days.
One reason that fifth wheel trailers took such a long time catching on was that you had to have a pickup to pull it. People wanted a luxury car for their vacation. Nowadays pickups are fancier than cars.
That and a lot of travel and stock trailers have gotten heavier. Seen some of the new horse trailers?
I don't think the 78 Caprice would like pulling a 10k# travel trailer.
http://www.coachmenrv.com/products/catalina.aspx?page=floorplandetails&floorplanid=5323
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That and a lot of travel and stock trailers have gotten heavier. Seen some of the new horse trailers?
I don't think the 78 Caprice would like pulling a 10k# travel trailer.
http://www.coachmenrv.com/products/catalina.aspx?page=floorplandetails&floorplanid=5323
Mmm, some of each ... travel trailers are built lighter/stronger than they used to be, but in general have gotten bigger to make up the difference. I used to have a Holiday 22' and that thing was heavy :O It had genuine birch paneling inside with cabinets made out of real wood - beautiful =). I pulled it with a K-20 and just a ball on the bumper but it was intended to be pulled with a large car with Reese hitch. Other than the rear springs, cars were as heavy as pickups and often had much bigger engines.
Yeah, and some of those new horse trailers need to be pulled with a real truck, not even just a pickup =|