Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Balog on October 14, 2014, 06:47:37 PM
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If they in any way relate to homosexuality, "gender identity", or the city's angry lesbian mayor. Good old Texas, bastion of conservatism and freedom.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/10/14/city-houston-demands-pastors-turn-over-sermons/
The subpoenas are just the latest twist in an ongoing saga over the Houston’s new non-discrimination ordinance. The law, among other things, would allow men to use the ladies room and vice versa. The city council approved the law in June.
The Houston Chronicle reported opponents of the ordinance launched a petition drive that generated more than 50,000 signatures – far more than the 17,269 needed to put a referendum on the ballot.
However, the city threw out the petition in August over alleged irregularities.
After opponents of the bathroom bill filed a lawsuit the city’s attorneys responded by issuing the subpoenas against the pastors.
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However, the city threw out the petition in August over alleged irregularities.
Of course they did.
Getting to be time to dust off the cartridge box and start writing down names for future reference.
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How many 1A violations? Oh, let me count the ways.
Tossing the pettition? Was there a hearing? Did they state how many signatures were "phony"? How many did they check?
Subpeonas for sermons. Yeah, I'd like to see the judge that let fly. Saying "I don't like the mixed bathroom ordinance, I don't like Homosexuals" Hmmmm, free speech, so sorry Madam Mayor if you don't like it. Welcome to the big leagues. There will be critics. However your Soviet style attempts to stifle dissent should have you being put up against the wall. You know, pour encourager les autres.
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LOL.
The mega church pastors should send an email that says "Nuts", and pray that Houston is stupid enough to jail them. I can not think of a single way to get more support, parishioners, or money* then being the Christian jailed by a lesbian over sermons.
*I leave it to the reader to guess which of those three things is more important to a mega church pastor.
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The mayor will eventually run into a court that actually pays attention to the Constitution. That will be entertaining. Break out the popcorn and beer.
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I will be heartily disappointed if any of these pastors cooperate.
However:
This is a great opportunity for those pastors to communicate their thoughts to the clowns in charge. "You want sermons? I've got some lively ones prepped. One has lepers..."
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These libtards seem to overplaying their hand of late. This could get interesting.
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These libtards seem to overplaying their hand of late. This could get interesting.
They sense weakness. They are probing the perimeter and instigating skirmishes.
Overplaying their hand? No.
They are grinding out the ground game and getting first downs. They are moving the sticks while their opponent plays prevent defense.
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They sense weakness. They are probing the perimeter and instigating skirmishes.
Overplaying their hand? No.
They are grinding out the ground game and getting first downs. They are moving the sticks while their opponent plays prevent defense.
They're in the third quarter, and sussing out exactly how they're going to clinch the game.
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http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/196678/
THEY WOULDN’T DO THIS IF THEY FEARED BEHEADINGS: Houston Subpoenas Pastors’ Sermons To Look For Anti-Gay Talk.
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I will be heartily disappointed if any of these pastors cooperate.
However:
This is a great opportunity for those pastors to communicate their thoughts to the clowns in charge. "You want sermons? I've got some lively ones prepped. One has lepers..."
Its almost certain there will be a coalition of leftist pastors who will support the mayor, there's always a lefty 'interfaith' group in every city made up of pastors of insignificant or pseudo-christian churches (some if which are outright scams in of themselves) who grab the headlines on a regular basis for gay marriage or raising taxes or ending gun violence. ...
I know the pastor of a LCMS megachurch just outside of Houston, I haven't seen him in a few years, but I can vouch for him as being 100% solid.
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Que the 80+yo pastor with hardcopies of all his sermons, etc. . [popcorn]
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http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/196678/
They subpoenaed the mosques too right?
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They subpoenaed the mosques too, right?
That's just what i was coming here to say.
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The Church we went to when I was a kid has been recorded and distributing sermons for 30 years or more. Used to send out cassettes. Been doing mp3 files for at least 15 years maybe longer. I was thinking they could get a big flash drive and put 20 years of sermons on it and turn it over. Let the city figure out which sermon has what they want.
Otherwise, send a letter saying they are welcome to attend church and take notes.
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Que the 80+yo pastor with hardcopies of all his sermons, etc.
Hardcopies can be scanned, OCRd and then searched the easy way. I was thinking of piping all the good web sermon archives through a text-to-speech program, adding the audio tracks of every YouTube video of a sermon, and giving it all to them in very low quality mp3s.
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So far at least half a dozen pastors have told the Mayor to go pound sand and that they are more than happy to go to jail.
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They subpoenaed the mosques too right?
Now THAT's a knee-slapper!
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Its almost certain there will be a coalition of leftist pastors who will support the mayor . . .
Paging Al Sharpton . . . paging Jeremiah Wright . . . paging Jesse Jackson . . .
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So far at least half a dozen pastors have told the Mayor to go pound sand and that they are more than happy to go to jail.
Matthew 5:10-12
Luke 6:22-23
Bring it on.
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“I expect to die in bed, my successor will die in prison and his successor will die a martyr in the public square. His successor will pick up the shards of a ruined society and slowly help rebuild civilization, as the church has done so often in human history.” - Francis Cardinal George, former Archbishop of Chicago, 2010
Seems apropos.
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The Church we went to when I was a kid has been recorded and distributing sermons for 30 years or more. Used to send out cassettes. Been doing mp3 files for at least 15 years maybe longer. I was thinking they could get a big flash drive and put 20 years of sermons on it and turn it over. Let the city figure out which sermon has what they want.
Otherwise, send a letter saying they are welcome to attend church and take notes.
Sermonaudio.com.
Heck, even the little place we go to now throws sermons onto a Youtube channel, mostly for the benefit of some folks that can't make it often.
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Marnoot's being quiet. Must be busy concatenating the the entire archive of General Conference talks into a single FLAC to email to mayor@houstontx.gov ;)
It's the "any communications with members" relating to the law that, to me, comes way too close to an outright refusal to recognize the confidentiality of confessions; I've yet to meet any clergyman of any faith that wasn't also willing to discuss social and legal effects of a confessed act, and even redacting the confession itself, knowing that the law was discussed as part of it pretty well tells what it was about.
I'd be surprised if the Catholic Church isn't quietly preparing for this one in a big way. I'd be more surprised if it didn't generate one of the largest interfaith cooperative efforts in history if the city keeps pushing to the point that somebody has to step up and take them all the way to the big leagues.
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I'd like to see every preacher in Houston civilly disobey. Leftists love that, right?
I would also like to see every preacher without Houston flood the city's office, and crash their email with sermons, tracts, essays, etc, etc. I will speak to my pastor about this at our Wed. evening meeting.
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OK, who's in charge of sending every item of JW literature to them?
And does Jack T. Chick have an "order all and send as gift" option?
ETA: In the interest of diversity, you must send every available language.
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They've started back-pedaling, and blamed some unnamed pro-bono lawyer
http://www.chron.com/news/politics/houston/article/Parker-calls-ERO-sermon-supboeana-overly-broad-5824816.php
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They've started back-pedaling, and blamed some unnamed pro-bono lawyer
http://www.chron.com/news/politics/houston/article/Parker-calls-ERO-sermon-supboeana-overly-broad-5824816.php
The subpoenas, handed down to five pastors and religious leaders last month, came to light this week when attorneys for the group of pastors filed a motion to quash the request. Though Feldman stood behind the subpoena in an interview Tuesday, he and Parker said during the Mayor's weekly press conference Wednesday that the wording was problematic.
I'm very convinced of their sincerity.
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OK, who's in charge of sending every item of JW literature to them?
And does Jack T. Chick have an "order all and send as gift" option?
ETA: In the interest of diversity, you must send every available language.
Not that I can see, but their on line order looks pretty standard. Billing address and shipping address are separate.
https://www.chick.com/store/secure/billship.asp (https://www.chick.com/store/secure/billship.asp)
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It was a shot across the bow meant to intimidate the pastors.
My suspicion is they felt if they could get away with it, so much the better.
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Not that I can see, but their on line order looks pretty standard. Billing address and shipping address are separate.
https://www.chick.com/store/secure/billship.asp (https://www.chick.com/store/secure/billship.asp)
Ok, who wants to set up crowdfunding? Plenty of other sources for material, too.
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I'd like to see every preacher in Houston civilly disobey. Leftists love that, right?
I would also like to see every preacher without Houston flood the city's office, and crash their email with sermons, tracts, essays, etc, etc. I will speak to my pastor about this at our Wed. evening meeting.
Put it on a milk carton. "Dissent is patriotic." last seen ca. Nov 2008.
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Maybe every pastor that can in the country should send their sermons. Give em lots to look at. Unsorted of course
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It's somewhat disappointing to see the mayor and city attorney begin backpedaling rather than being smacked down in court, but I suspect someone refreshed their memory that deprivation of rights under color of law is a Federal crime.
http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/crm/242fin.php
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It's somewhat disappointing to see the mayor and city attorney begin backpedaling rather than being smacked down in court, but I suspect someone refreshed their memory that deprivation of rights under color of law is a Federal crime.
http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/crm/242fin.php
has that ever actually been used?
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Marnoot's being quiet. Must be busy concatenating the the entire archive of General Conference talks into a single FLAC to email to mayor@houstontx.gov ;)
Replace FLAC with low-quality-but-high-bitrate WAV and I'll get cracking on it. They'll accept said WAV on 3.25" disks, no?
I imagine many churches large and small all across the country are watching this carefully and the larger ones having their legal teams watch even more closely.
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has that ever actually been used?
The Department of Justice apparently used it against the police department in the Rodney King Case. Perhaps a lawyer can jump in...
I'm sure Holder wouldn't be rushing to prosecute in this case.
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Put it on a milk carton. "Dissent is patriotic." last seen ca. Nov 2008.
Oh no, it's not just patriotic. As we heard about one frillion eleventee times, dissent is THE HIGHEST FORM OF TEH PATRIOTISMS.
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Has anyone seen this being reported by anyone other than Fox new outlets?
I've not seen it on ABC, CBS, NBC, or CNN.
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Churches in American receive legitimacy from the government through 501(c) charitable organization taxation rules. Sleep with dogs, wake up with fleas.
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Has anyone seen this being reported by anyone other than Fox new outlets?
I've not seen it on ABC, CBS, NBC, or CNN.
I've seen it at chron.com (The Houston Chronicle) because it's local news there. You won't find it on the networks because it makes their pet gay mayor look bad.
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Churches in American receive legitimacy from the government through 501(c) charitable organization taxation rules. Sleep with dogs, wake up with fleas.
Freedom of religion is a dead letter in the USA.
There is no way an assembly of believers can congregate together, pool their resources together for the needs of the group as well as distribution to the needy without becoming incorporated. If you want to have a church you must bow down to the state and become a creature of the state.
The "church" is a zombie in the USA but doesn't know it yet.
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She's not even good at backtracking
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2014/10/after_defending_subpoenas_for_sermons_houston_mayor_backtracks.html
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Churches in American receive legitimacy from the government through 501(c) charitable organization taxation rules. Sleep with dogs, wake up with fleas.
Bible clearly says to obey local authorities unless what they're requiring is unBiblical. 501(c) is the structure fed.gov has set up for churches, so they don't have much choice but to use it. If they don't they can either become a coporation, or they can essentially be unable to have a building, organize charitable relief work etc. It's not a great setup but we don't have much choice.
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The Freedom of conscience is under continual assault by "progressives" under the banner of tolerance and inclusion.
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Bible clearly says to obey local authorities unless what they're requiring is unBiblical.
Allowing those local authorities to suppress the preaching of the Gospel, particularly when they defy their own higher authorities and violate their sworn oaths of office by doing so, is unBiblical.
This is the oath anyone applying for a place on the ballot for a local election takes in Texas:
Before me, the undersigned authority, on this day personally appeared (name) _________________________________________, who being by me
here and now duly sworn, upon oath says: “I, (name)________________________________________, of _____________________________
County, Texas, being a candidate for the office of ______________________________________________________, swear that I will support and
defend the Constitution and laws of the United States and of the State of Texas. I am a citizen of the United States eligible to hold such office under
the Constitution and laws of this state. I have not been finally convicted of a felony for which I have not been pardoned or had my full rights of
citizenship restored by other official action. I have not been determined by a final judgment of a court exercising probate jurisdiction to be totally
mentally incapacitated or partially mentally incapacitated without the right to vote. I am aware of the nepotism law, Chapter 573, Government Code.
Texas Constitution, Article 1 Section 6:
FREEDOM OF WORSHIP. All men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own consciences. No man shall be compelled to attend, erect or support any place of worship, or to maintain any ministry against his consent. No human authority ought, in any case whatever, to control or interfere with the rights of conscience in matters of religion, and no preference shall ever be given by law to any religious society or mode of worship. But it shall be the duty of the Legislature to pass such laws as may be necessary to protect equally every religious denomination in the peaceable enjoyment of its own mode of public worship.
Section 8:
FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND PRESS; LIBEL. Every person shall be at liberty to speak, write or publish his opinions on any subject, being responsible for the abuse of that privilege; and no law shall ever be passed curtailing the liberty of speech or of the press. In prosecutions for the publication of papers, investigating the conduct of officers, or men in public capacity, or when the matter published is proper for public information, the truth thereof may be given in evidence. And in all indictments for libels, the jury shall have the right to determine the law and the facts, under the direction of the court, as in other cases.
Section 9:
SEARCHES AND SEIZURES. The people shall be secure in their persons, houses, papers and possessions, from all unreasonable seizures or searches, and no warrant to search any place, or to seize any person or thing, shall issue without describing them as near as may be, nor without probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation.
One can easily argue that a city that issues mass subpoenas for sermons implies an intent to take legal action, and fully intends their actions to have a chilling effect on the freedom of speech of churches.
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I was talking about churches registering as 501(c) entities, not about complying with the subpoenas.
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I was talking about churches registering as 501(c) entities, not about complying with the subpoenas.
Considering that that status is pretty much always the first thing threatened if they don't precisely toe the line in any way, I'd have to say it's related.
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Threatened, yep. But just try to get them to follow through. [tinfoil]
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/07/AR2008090702460.html
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There it is right in the above article:
"The federal tax law is clear. Churches are charitable institutions that exist to do charitable things. That does not include politics. Political groups do politics."
There are appellate and supreme court precedents on the issue.
The government will dictate the role of religious institutions and how they conduct themselves. They exist at the pleasure of the state.
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There it is right in the above article:
There are appellate and supreme court precedents on the issue.
The government will dictate the role of religious institutions and how they conduct themselves. They exist at the pleasure of the state.
Not exactly. They exist whether the state recognizes them or not; Jesus founded the church, not Caesar. Jesus also paid his taxes.
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Not exactly. They exist whether the state recognizes them or not; Jesus founded the church, not Caesar. Jesus also paid his taxes.
He even invited the irs to dinner.
Though he did whip some money lenders and turn over their tables....
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Not exactly. They exist whether the state recognizes them or not; Jesus founded the church, not Caesar. Jesus also paid his taxes.
More to the point, "separation of church and state" is the state's obligation to stay out of religious matters, and not allow itself or its mandates to be unduly influenced by religion. It does not place upon any church a responsibility to stay out of politics.
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Corporate cultural American Christianity will be defanged, neutered and co-opted into an image more pleasing to the state by the courts and legislature.
The seeds of doom are already planted.
Just like the marriage issue 'the church' has invited government into a realm via incorporation that it doesn't have any business being involved with.
The proverbial deal with the devil.
The body of believers (the actual church) will carry on. In the State approved churches as well as meeting in private.
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The Department of Justice apparently used it against the police department in the Rodney King Case. Perhaps a lawyer can jump in...
I'm sure Holder wouldn't be rushing to prosecute in this case.
Hahahhaha We'd get to see which demographic is more important the Obama Administration; Black Evangelicals (votes) or Homosexuals (money).
[popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn]
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There it is right in the above article:
There are appellate and supreme court precedents on the issue.
The government will dictate the role of religious institutions and how they conduct themselves. They exist at the pleasure of the state.
Those decisions specifically state that issues advocacy is protected religious speech, and only when a specific candidate is being touted does it cross the line into political activity.
I'm curious what you think the church in America should do, regarding incorporation.
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More to the point, "separation of church and state" is the state's obligation to stay out of religious matters, and not allow itself or its mandates to be unduly influenced by religion. It does not place upon any church a responsibility to stay out of politics.
Even more to the point, separation of church and state is a much abused concept found nowhere in the Constitution or BoR.
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Even more to the point, separation of church and state is a much abused concept found nowhere in the Constitution or BoR.
Thread win!
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Even more to the point, separation of church and state is a much abused concept found nowhere in the Constitution or BoR.
Correct, but it was a concept the Founders had in mind, and one the state should be abiding by.
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I'm a bit confused as to how churches became the bad guys in this thread.
I'm also a tad confused about how incorporation in any way contributed to the outlandish "legal" proceedings of a city government so thoroughly off its nut.
And furthermore, I must guffaw at the notion that tax-free incorporation (or lack thereof) will be a serious hurdle for a thing that has not succumbed to the tyrant's brandished steel, the lion's gory mane, etc. Like the United States, the church's greatest enemy is always within. Neither the IRS, nor Houston's City Hall are any real threat to her.
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Sure, a church can exist easily without the governments hands in it. But when you invite the devil to dinner so you can have tax free status, you agree to the devils menu.
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Correct, but it was a concept the Founders had in mind, and one the state should be abiding by.
They conceived of it much differently.
Separation of Church and State (capitalized, as it properly refers to institutions) has become separation of belief and state.
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Sure, a church can exist easily without the governments ____ _______ in it. But when you invite the devil to dinner so you can have tax free status, you agree to the devils menu.
edited because
So, according to you, if the .gov sets up hurdles to tax-exemption, churches should just take it and like it? I'd better not hear you complaining about Texas' open carry ban, anymore.
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If they decided to press ahead, I'd just hope that every church, synagogue, and mosque in Texas scans copies of every sermon they've ever given as an image file. Jpeg, gif etc. That way OCR and search won't work. You have to read every line. Its the same way they released the affordable care act, so it must be acceptable...
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The Texas AG has weighed-in today, siding with the pastors.
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Those decisions specifically state that issues advocacy is protected religious speech, and only when a specific candidate is being touted does it cross the line into political activity.
With that in mind, perhaps this guy should get a subpoena:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=TWigzBClEk8#t=100
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Oh, you said sermon! My mistake. Uhh..don't open the envelope.
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;/ I thought this was a family-friendly forum. Then again, I'm not sure what "____ _______" is supposed to mean in this context, so perhaps it's perfectly innocent. It certainly doesn't make a lot of sense. Who uses that phrase, anyway?
The entire US military uses that phrase. Perfect in this context since idle hands are the devil's workshop.
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The entire US military uses that phrase. Perfect in this context since idle hands are the devil's workshop.
Oh, sorry. I've been in the civilian world for a while. I remember what it means, now.
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The Texas AG has weighed-in today, siding with the pastors.
He is running for Gov. He is generally the type that would side with the pastors anyway.
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More to the point, "separation of church and state" is the state's obligation to stay out of religious matters, and not allow itself or its mandates to be unduly influenced by religion. It does not place upon any church a responsibility to stay out of politics.
I didn't think there was any obligation to keep religion from influencing govt mandates. That would be silly. There is no way to prevent that. Our laws have traditionally been full of things "influenced by religion". The goal is to keep Govt out of the Churchs, not necessarily to keep Church people out of Govt.
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Sure, a church can exist easily without the governments dick beaters in it. But when you invite the devil to dinner so you can have tax free status, you agree to the devils menu.
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Who invited the devil? If the Govts dumped tax free status, you wouldn't see Churches disappear. You would see a lot of voters ticked off though.
I honestly might consider some scale back of that issue, not in direct terms, but more into some Churches who try to turn the whole thing into some big business. Lots of issues with charitable groups to deal with first though.
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;/ I thought this was a family-friendly forum. Then again, I'm not sure what "____ _______" is supposed to mean in this context, so perhaps it's perfectly innocent. It certainly doesn't make a lot of sense. Who uses that phrase, anyway?
So, according to you, if the .gov sets up hurdles to tax-exemption, churches should just take it and like it? I'd better not hear you complaining about Texas' open carry ban, anymore.
I wasn't thinking when I posted it, my apologies, and it's been edited.
I'm not saying that churches have to like it. Maybe they should fight for full and total freedom that might allow them the ability to operate fully free of government interference and coercement. And I'm glad they have dug in their heels on the issue.
And I'm saying that churches can exist without government involvement. Taking the money out of the equation is a big step.
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If it wasn't for income taxes, the propery taxes would be mostly all that was left and those are state/local. It would cost more money to keep the doors open, but it would get done most places.
The biggest issue for property taxes is values. The Church we went to when I was kid is right near the Galleria shopping mall in Houston. It was there long before that mall and the other buildings were built. However, now the property is worth quite a bit more. I hate to think what the taxes would be. Even 1% would probably be quite a bit of money.
Also, something tells me that the people who might try to do this would likely put in some qualifier keeping the exemption for Mosques, just like the Houston Mayor didn't supeona any Mosques for their sermons.
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If it wasn't for income taxes, the propery taxes would be mostly all that was left and those are state/local. It would cost more money to keep the doors open, but it would get done most places.
The biggest issue for property taxes is values. The Church we went to when I was kid is right near the Galleria shopping mall in Houston. It was there long before that mall and the other buildings were built. However, now the property is worth quite a bit more. I hate to think what the taxes would be. Even 1% would probably be quite a bit of money.
Also, something tells me that the people who might try to do this would likely put in some qualifier keeping the exemption for Mosques, just like the Houston Mayor didn't supeona any Mosques for their sermons.
Similar thing here. Forty years ago it displaced from its original location due to development and an offer and now even the new location is built up around with high-$$$ residential and commercial real estate. We get offers frequently to buy the property. Pushing those starting offers against the millage results in a number we could never afford to pay. "Ruinous" doesn;t even com close to it. If gov't is going to tolerate gov't owned tax free entities (schools, gov't offices, fire stations, etc.) to exist on land that could be put to greater property tax generating use, it can tolerate private/chartered tax free entities doing the same.
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I didn't think there was any obligation to keep religion from influencing govt mandates. That would be silly. There is no way to prevent that. Our laws have traditionally been full of things "influenced by religion". The goal is to keep Govt out of the Churchs, not necessarily to keep Church people out of Govt.
We live in opposite land, where liberals do the exact opposite of what should be done and interpret laws to be the exact opposite of what they are.
-church and state- Jefferson wrote that the state will not interfere, not the current leftist interpretation.
-2nd Amendment- leftists believe this means that guns are to be regulated and be only in the hands of militias (national guard) or government.
..and those are just two examples, I could give a hundred.
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I didn't think there was any obligation to keep religion from influencing govt mandates. That would be silly. There is no way to prevent that. Our laws have traditionally been full of things "influenced by religion". The goal is to keep Govt out of the Churchs, not necessarily to keep Church people out of Govt.
Hence "unduly influenced." As in, no particular church directly dictates governmental policy.
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Hence "unduly influenced." As in, no particular church directly dictates governmental policy.
Not really. If 75% of voters were suddenly Southern Baptist, there is nothing stopping them all from voting in Southern Baptist candidates or ideas. What they cannot do is establish Southern Baptist as an official religion/denomination or oppress other religions/denominations.
I may be defining "unduly influenced" differently than you are though.
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Not really. If 75% of voters were suddenly Southern Baptist, there is nothing stopping them all from voting in Southern Baptist candidates or ideas. What they cannot do is establish Southern Baptist as an official religion/denomination or oppress other religions/denominations.
Not oppressing other denominations pretty much eliminates all Southern Baptist ideas, so that wouldn't work out very well with Constitutional limitations.
Of course, a solid 75% of voters in agreement on anything could force a Constitutional Convention and rewrite the whole darn thing if they put their minds to it.
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Not oppressing other denominations pretty much eliminates all Southern Baptist ideas, so that wouldn't work out very well with Constitutional limitations.
Of course, a solid 75% of voters in agreement on anything could force a Constitutional Convention and rewrite the whole darn thing if they put their minds to it.
Oddly, I have never felt or been oppressed by S Baptists or their ideas. I have debated them where their tradition or doctrine is in conflict, but that is hardly oppression.
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Oddly, I have never felt or been oppressed by S Baptists or their ideas. I have debated them where their tradition or doctrine is in conflict, but that is hardly oppression.
Visit the South and try to buy a case of beer on the way to watch football at a friends house some Sunday......
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Visit the South and try to buy a case of beer on the way to watch football at a friends house some Sunday......
Most places around here, you can get the beer, but not hard liquor.
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In FL it varies by county and I don't even try to keep track.
The Southern Baptists (today) come closer than any other denomination I have come across to oppression through color of law.
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In FL it varies by county and I don't even try to keep track.
The Southern Baptists (today) come closer than any other denomination I have come across to oppression through color of law.
I must not be doing it right then. I don't think I've oppressed anybody in... dang, it's been a long time. =|
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Most places around here, you can get the beer, but not hard liquor.
Not here. All of Texas beer sales are prohibited on Sunday before noon.
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If I still drank living in va would suck
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Not here. All of Texas beer sales are prohibited on Sunday before noon.
Never tried before noon. If you can't get through church without a beer, get a new preacher.
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Never tried before noon. If you can't get through church without a beer, get a new preacher.
Yeah then there's religions that practice Saturday as the sabbath, don't recognize the sabbath at all, and don't forget the atheists like me.
Liquor laws like that are a prime example of the hypocrisy of this whole thing.
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Yeah then there's religions that practice Saturday as the sabbath, don't recognize the sabbath at all, and don't forget the atheists like me.
Clearly, atheists need something to do on Sunday mornings. Maybe you could go sit in an empty, undecorated room and listen to nothing for a couple hours?
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I must not be doing it right then. I don't think I've oppressed anybody in... dang, it's been a long time. =|
I'm sure if you try you can oppress someone this weekend before you need to make the casserole. =D
To clarify, I'm not accusing any individual of oppression (yet). But in the US, and especially in the South, the predominance of Baptist led to a lot of Baptists in office. And as was indicated up thread that means you have a lot of folks making a lot of local laws. Many of those end up being pseudo religious. For decades no one that mattered cared because if you had a problem with the blue laws, you obviously weren't "God Fearing Christian Folk" and your opinion didn't matter. Kind of a passive aggressive oppression but oppression by the Baptists none the less. in the last 15-20 years it has slackened but it's still pretty obvious in small towns and counties throughout the Bible Belt.
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It's an vague line between local folks deciding local laws and oppression. Depends where you stand
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I'm sure if you try you can oppress someone this weekend before you need to make the casserole. =D
To clarify, I'm not accusing any individual of oppression (yet). But in the US, and especially in the South, the predominance of Baptist led to a lot of Baptists in office. And as was indicated up thread that means you have a lot of folks making a lot of local laws. Many of those end up being pseudo religious. For decades no one that mattered cared because if you had a problem with the blue laws, you obviously weren't "God Fearing Christian Folk" and your opinion didn't matter. Kind of a passive aggressive oppression but oppression by the Baptists none the less. in the last 15-20 years it has slackened but it's still pretty obvious in small towns and counties throughout the Bible Belt.
Truth.
When pastors and religious groups actively seek to uphold or enact laws that limit my freedom, they're going to find me giving less of a deuce that they find themselves being oppressed.
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Yeah, I am really sure atheists wouldn't oppress anyone at all if given the chance. ;/
Imagine all the forgetful Sunday morning fishermen who can't get drunk because they forgot to buy on Saturday. What would fishing be if you had to do it sober?
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I am pretty sure many local and state governments had similar laws you might find oppressive in 1776. This nation has never been a libertarian paradise.
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Yeah, I am really sure atheists wouldn't oppress anyone at all if given the chance. ;/
Imagine all the forgetful Sunday morning fishermen who can't get drunk because they forgot to buy on Saturday. What would fishing be if you had to do it sober?
True, the Blue laws are not that egregious. Mind you it's still BS that myself and another adult can not complete a otherwise legal transaction because of an uninterested third parties church, but it doesn't really rise to torches and pitchforks.
However, due in large part to the "anti-god influence of media" several Baptist churches got together and got the small town in North FL my cousin lives in to strengthen their public decency laws. "Too many of those dang Goths" were coming over from JAX. (No seriously, that's what her pastor said). As a result I've seen my cousin's 14YO daughter stopped by police on the sidewalk outside her school to measure the length of her volleyball shorts. Churches drafted the law, churches pushed it before the city council, church members voted it in, and church members with guns enforce it regardless of your religious affiliation. Seems I've heard of another major religion that makes laws if their women show to much skin........hmmmm.
It's a small, predominantly white, rural town in FL. Even if it does bother people, it won't get enough traction to get a lawsuit, or even a news story. But it happens still.
Like I said, I'm not trying to bash any one religion or any one believer. But Christians, especially Baptists in the south, still have a stranglehold on our culture that is sometimes hard to see from inside the church. It's a fact of life in America.
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I am pretty sure many local and state governments had similar laws you might find oppressive in 1776. This nation has never been a libertarian paradise.
Also true. which is why I don't actually worry much about the oppression. In aggregate, oppression and all, the US, and especially the southern US is a pretty free and wonderful place to live. But that doesn't make me blind to it's issues.
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Halp halp the baptists are oppressing me!
I guess i was oppressed the other day after church at sams. Tried to buy some beer and it would not ring up. Come see the baptists iherent in the system!
Ftr i doubt baptists have enough clout to pass such laws on their own.
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Soft tyranny is still tyranny. And when you break the soft tyranny laws, they still use the threat of force to enforce them.
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Soft tyranny is still tyranny. And when you break the soft tyranny laws, they still use the threat of force to enforce them.
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Want to see tyranny? Wait till the last vestiges of cultural Christianity are purged from our institutions and replaced with progressives and statists.
They are the ones who have no philosophical constraints on using government power to mold the new American human world citizen. They deny natural rights exist and many reject human free will also. It's kind of hard to square their philosophical circle with our square constitution.
You might reject Christianity but the circle of friends who believe in those two principles of liberty shrinks enormously without us Christians.
Should be interesting to watch if the USA doesn't self immolate first.
In answer to fistfuls question regarding corporations. We will have to play it out as it is till the end. There is no escape from Leviathan now, that deal was sealed long ago. Government and religion yoked up a long time ago and government is in the drivers seat. There is no alternative in our system other than going underground. All we can do is try and keep what liberty we have until it is taken away. Once it is taken away we go underground. Not the first choice but Christianity does fine underground.
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The soft tyranny comment reminded me of the CS Lewis quote
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. - CS Lewis
I'm sorry, but to me I would say that the progressives fit the above description of moral busybodies much better than modern cultural Christianity.
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And yet, Christian groups continue to attack the moral freedoms others would like to enjoy.
Done with this one.
Ya'll keep it civil though.
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I wasn't thinking when I posted it, my apologies, and it's been edited.
I'm not saying that churches have to like it. Maybe they should fight for full and total freedom that might allow them the ability to operate fully free of government interference and coercement. And I'm glad they have dug in their heels on the issue.
And I'm saying that churches can exist without government involvement. Taking the money out of the equation is a big step.
I'm sure there are some that are. My church is doing all it can just to keep the 'lectric bill paid up.
I've edited my post, as well.
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Come see the baptists iherent in the system!
Of course I had to read that in a Monty Python voice.
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Of course I had to read that in a Monty Python voice.
I had half a skit going in my head with Michael Palin going on as a Unitarian-Universalist complaining about the oppression of folk with orthodoxy and creeds and all, but it just sort of trailed off into meaninglessness...
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Halp halp the baptists are oppressing me!
I guess i was oppressed the other day after church at sams. Tried to buy some beer and it would not ring up. Come see the baptists iherent in the system!
Ftr i doubt baptists have enough clout to pass such laws on their own.
When I lived in West Michigan, there were (at least apocryphally) municipalities that would allow service of liquor in a resturaunt on sunday, but not beer. We (non-Dutch) liked to joke that the Christian Reformed didn't want to drink with us Lutherans, Baptists and Catholics on Sundays.
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I think a lot of people would understand the church/state issue better, if they applied fistful's patented Separation of Church and State, Not Belief and State formula. In other words, church/state separation is meant to apply to the church and state as institutions; but not as a firewall sealing off the religious beliefs of individuals from having any effect on our government, or the way we vote. Obviously, our views on politics, law, government are the result of our religious beliefs, our philosophies, our interests, our principles, etc.
Viewed from this perspective, those insidious, blue-law Baptists are only as menacing as every other advocacy group pushing burdensome regulations. If the churches encourage individual voters to restrict access to liquor, that's their right, just like everyone else has a right to push for their own agenda.
Edited.
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I think a lot of people would understand the church/state issue better, if they applied fistful's patented Separation of Church and State, Not Belief and State formula. In other words, church/state separation is meant to apply to the church and state as institutions; but not as a firewall sealing off the religious beliefs of individuals from having any effect on our government, or the way we vote. Obviously, our views on politics, law, government are the result of our religious beliefs, our philosophies, our interests, our principles, etc.
Viewed from this perspective, those insidious, blue-law Baptists are only as menacing as every other advocacy group. If the churches encourage individual voters to restrict access to liquor, that's their right, just like everyone else has a right to push for their own agenda.
Surprisingly to me, the Mennonites in my community in Texas were opposing a blue law repeal of banning alcohol sales, a few years ago.
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I had half a skit going in my head with Michael Palin going on as a Unitarian-Universalist complaining about the oppression of folk with orthodoxy and creeds and all, but it just sort of trailed off into meaninglessness...
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Flist%2F000%2F396%2F683%2F94d.png&hash=5a792b84efd4bc9e045f260a305d8648f5ed7a90)
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Wow... I actually agree with Fistful on a topic involving religion. Thinking everybody should bundle up: Hell just froze over
I do feel it necessary to point something out: "charitable works" are not needed for a church. Not saying they're a bad idea, just that "doing charitable works" isn't a necessary function to denote a church
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Wow... I actually agree with Fistful on a topic involving religion. Thinking everybody should bundle up: Hell just froze over
I do feel it necessary to point something out: "charitable works" are not needed for a church. Not saying they're a bad idea, just that "doing charitable works" isn't a necessary function to denote a church
I'm not so sure about that. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25:31-46 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25:31-46) Jesus wasn't necessarily talking about the church (it didn't really exist yet) but I think the principle still applies.
Also see James's comments about faith without works.
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"Church" doesn't mean "Christian church". Using it as "religious organization", regardless of religion
There ARE pagan churches
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"Church" doesn't mean "Christian church". Using it as "religious organization", regardless of religion
There ARE pagan churches
Are there pagan hymnals?
Pagan parsonages?
Pagan pot-bless chili suppers?
How about pagan Sunday school?
Vacation pagan school in the summer?
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Are there pagan hymnals?
Pagan parsonages?
Pagan pot-bless chili suppers?
How about pagan Sunday school?
Vacation pagan school in the summer?
Don't know, but I do know that there is a Spiritist church camp, about 40 miles from where I am.
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Do Druids count? They had everything but the parsonage and hymnals.
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Do Druids count? They had everything but the parsonage and hymnals.
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Plus sacrificial victims' entrails draped on the oak trees like garlands.
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When I was in work release the rules allowed you to sign out for religious services and not have it count against regular furlough time. One enterprising guy found out the Druids had all day service on Sundays.dawn to dusk. All at once there were a bunch of converts
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Pagan pot-bless chili suppers?
I heard of one in Boston. It was wicca-tasty according to attendees.
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I heard of one in Boston. It was wicca-tasty according to attendees.
Even Tallpine is rolling his eyes at that one.
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Sure, a church can exist easily without the governments hands in it. But when you invite the devil to dinner so you can have tax free status, you agree to the devils menu.
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You're trying to make it sound like some greedy church grasping to avoid paying taxes. In order to function as a church legally in America, you have to incorporate as a 501(c) group. Might as well say you can't complain about gun control laws if you have a carry permit.
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I'm sure if you try you can oppress someone this weekend before you need to make the casserole. =D
To clarify, I'm not accusing any individual of oppression (yet). But in the US, and especially in the South, the predominance of Baptist led to a lot of Baptists in office. And as was indicated up thread that means you have a lot of folks making a lot of local laws. Many of those end up being pseudo religious. For decades no one that mattered cared because if you had a problem with the blue laws, you obviously weren't "God Fearing Christian Folk" and your opinion didn't matter. Kind of a passive aggressive oppression but oppression by the Baptists none the less. in the last 15-20 years it has slackened but it's still pretty obvious in small towns and counties throughout the Bible Belt.
Teetotaling as a social norm is directly unBiblical and a product of American culture. Albeit it frequently masquerades as a religious thing but it has zero to do with the actual text.
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The blue laws here in Minnesota are worse than in Texas, and there are *very* few Baptists here, Southern or otherwise.
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Teetotaling as a social norm is directly unBiblical and a product of American culture. Albeit it frequently masquerades as a religious thing but it has zero to do with the actual text.
This.
“Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to.”
----Martin Luther
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This.
“Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to.”
----Martin Luther
"For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!' 19"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' ...Jesus
"There's no pleasing some people!"
...Brian
"That's just what Jesus said, sir"
...Ex-leper
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I don't particularly care if it's biblical or not. Y'all are welcome to argue over how is more true to your text till the cows come home. My point was, and is, that the christian mainstream culture in this country, through sheer force of numbers, often legislates their opinion of their religion. It is common at the local level. It's also pretty annoying, even if it's little stuff, to non members of that particular religion.
You churchgoers can frett and pontificate on the biblical aspects of various laws, and weather the "Bless their heart" judgments from LE, county councils, and judges are good Christianity or bad, but it still has to be delt with on a daily basis by folks that don't need or want any of your help in their spirituality.
I'd say you don't even know how deeply your religion invades all aspects of your thinking, but the few Baptists in positions of authority I've talked to about it Self Righteously told me that they KNEW they were spreading the faith by law, and that it was good. Which is why Baptists sit on the oppression list. I'd bet money that if I spent more time in the upper midwest the Presbyterians would join them.
Now please proceed with telling me how the laws that I have witnessed, and the people who have told me they were using their county seat to enact or keep religious laws aren't real christians, don't follow the bible or some other crap that has no practical outcome on living with self righteous bible thumping aholes.
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I don't particularly care if it's biblical or not. Y'all are welcome to argue over how is more true to your text till the cows come home. My point was, and is, that the christian mainstream culture in this country, through sheer force of numbers, often legislates their opinion of their religion. It is common at the local level. It's also pretty annoying, even if it's little stuff, to non members of that particular religion.
You churchgoers can frett and pontificate on the biblical aspects of various laws, and weather the "Bless their heart" judgments from LE, county councils, and judges are good Christianity or bad, but it still has to be delt with on a daily basis by folks that don't need or want any of your help in their spirituality.
I'd say you don't even know how deeply your religion invades all aspects of your thinking, but the few Baptists in positions of authority I've talked to about it Self Righteously told me that they KNEW they were spreading the faith by law, and that it was good. Which is why Baptists sit on the oppression list. I'd bet money that if I spent more time in the upper midwest the Presbyterians would join them.
Now please proceed with telling me how the laws that I have witnessed, and the people who have told me they were using their county seat to enact or keep religious laws aren't real christians, don't follow the bible or some other crap that has no practical outcome on living with self righteous bible thumping aholes.
Are you claiming that Christians are somehow more likely than other groups to favor intrusive government? If so, I think you will find that doesn't pan out.
[They] told me that they KNEW they were spreading the faith by law, and that it was good.
I've heard that, too. There's a lot of illogic going around in this country. A lot of wrongheadedness about how government should work, what a free country would look like, what the Bible really teaches, etc. I wish I knew how to reach those people, and show them the error of their ways. I'm pretty sure that berating Christians only makes them more likely to see non-Christians as the enemy. It makes them less likely to listen to arguments against blue laws, or the drug war. =|
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Are you claiming that Christians are somehow more likely than other groups to favor intrusive government? If so, I think you will find that doesn't pan out.
No, I'm claiming that in the US Christians are more likely than other groups to have succeeded in religious based intrusive government.
I've heard that, too. There's a lot of illogic going around in this country. A lot of wrongheadedness about how government should work, what a free country would look like, what the Bible really teaches, etc. I wish I knew how to reach those people, and show them the error of their ways. I'm pretty sure that berating Christians only makes them more likely to see non-Christians as the enemy
. It makes them less likely to listen to arguments against blue laws, or the drug war. =|
Which is why, in general, I don't berate Christians. In general, broad brush, even their pseudo-theocracies are freer and more to my style of living than other options available in the real world. This started with Rooster saying he'd never felt oppressed. I believe that he never has felt so, I just offered some differing experiences. I even tried pretty hard to be polite and low key about it, and predictably enough I got the checklist of "Those aren't REAL oppressions" -> "Others are worse" -> "They aren't Good Christians anyway" ->"Well you shouldn't bash all Christians because some are mean". It's like a small version of Larry Correia's SJW checklist.
I don't have anywhere near the problem with Christianity (in all it's schizophrenic incarnations) that I do with Islam as an institution. But it remains true that in my actual life, as a non-Christian spiritual person, the only religion that has successfully used the power of government and the threat of force to make me conform with their [idea of] religion is followers of Christ. Muslims have tried to kill me, but they've never sicced a Sheriff on me. And as usual, other Christians either don't want to see it, or want to excuse it.
As I said earlier, don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating we strap on the body armor and overthrow the Christian oppressors. It's not to the point of feeding you guys to the lions again. But it is annoying, especially when it's poo-pooed, and it affects large blocks of the voting public.
So there you go, take it for what it's worth.
It's funny that I actually side with the pastors in this thread, they should tell the .gov to FOAD, when those very same mega-church pastors are the ones most likely to influance city hall into the laws I'm complaining about.
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No, I'm claiming that in the US Christians are more likely than other groups to have succeeded in religious based intrusive government.
Fair enough, but I wonder whether you realize that religiously-inspired intrusive laws are no better or worse than intrusive laws not inspired by religious motives.
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Fair enough, but I wonder whether you realize that religiously-inspired intrusive laws are no better or worse than intrusive laws not inspired by religious motives.
Oh I do. See earlier CS lewis quote and Progressivism.
I was responding only in the limited context of "Baptists don't oppress" with a "yeah they do" and some anecdotes of such. Don't extrapolate that out to "They are the mostest evils in the world!".
You guys barely break the top 50 these days. =D
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The Catholics are off the hook on teetotaling. Especially the Irish ones
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Are there pagan hymnals?
Pagan parsonages?
Pagan pot-bless chili suppers?
How about pagan Sunday school?
Vacation pagan school in the summer?
I think you could easily find some sort of "pagan" version of all of those ;)
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It's funny that I actually side with the pastors in this thread, they should tell the .gov to FOAD, when those very same mega-church pastors are the ones most likely to influance city hall into the laws I'm complaining about.
Not really - liberty is liberty no matter who or whom =)
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However, due in large part to the "anti-god influence of media" several Baptist churches got together and got the small town in North FL my cousin lives in to strengthen their public decency laws. "Too many of those dang Goths" were coming over from JAX. (No seriously, that's what her pastor said). As a result I've seen my cousin's 14YO daughter stopped by police on the sidewalk outside her school to measure the length of her volleyball shorts. Churches drafted the law, churches pushed it before the city council, church members voted it in, and church members with guns enforce it regardless of your religious affiliation. Seems I've heard of another major religion that makes laws if their women show to much skin........hmmmm.
What city is that? I know some places try to be more "decent" than others, but other than school dress codes, I've never heard of getting to the point of measuring shorts.
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The Catholics are off the hook on teetotaling. Especially the Irish ones
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Do you know what the difference is between a Catholic friend and a southern Baptist friend?
The Catholic will know you when they run into you at the liquor store.
I'm very much a "live and let live" kind of atheist. In this case I strongly support the preachers telling the city to pound sand. It would be hard for me to envision much more of a blatant attack on the first amendment.
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I don't particularly care if it's biblical or not. Y'all are welcome to argue over how is more true to your text till the cows come home. My point was, and is, that the christian mainstream culture in this country, through sheer force of numbers, often legislates their opinion of their religion. It is common at the local level. It's also pretty annoying, even if it's little stuff, to non members of that particular religion.
You churchgoers can frett and pontificate on the biblical aspects of various laws, and weather the "Bless their heart" judgments from LE, county councils, and judges are good Christianity or bad, but it still has to be delt with on a daily basis by folks that don't need or want any of your help in their spirituality.
I'd say you don't even know how deeply your religion invades all aspects of your thinking, but the few Baptists in positions of authority I've talked to about it Self Righteously told me that they KNEW they were spreading the faith by law, and that it was good. Which is why Baptists sit on the oppression list. I'd bet money that if I spent more time in the upper midwest the Presbyterians would join them.
Now please proceed with telling me how the laws that I have witnessed, and the people who have told me they were using their county seat to enact or keep religious laws aren't real christians, don't follow the bible or some other crap that has no practical outcome on living with self righteous bible thumping aholes.
I ended reading this in my head with the voice of John Cleese:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso
What have they ever done for US?
1. Logic.
2. Empiricism and modern science.
3. Universal view of human worth.
4. Philosophical underpinnings that helped to end chattel slavery on 90% of the earth.
5. The very idea of the hospital.
6. Etc, etc, etc.
Simply put, were it not for folk like those you despise, we would all still be slaves of some despot and peeing in the same stream we get our drinking water from instead of grousing about how free folk exercise their franchise at the polls.
FTR: Long live Federalism and the 10th Amendment, so I can pack up and move if ever my neighbors get intolerably up in my business.
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The soft tyranny comment reminded me of the CS Lewis quote
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. - CS Lewis
I'm sorry, but to me I would say that the progressives fit the above description of moral busybodies much better than modern cultural Christianity.
I saw this quote and started to reply before I saw the last sentence. I do agree that "moral busybodies" often decribes liberal leftists whether they are Christian or not.
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The difference I find is that the Christian Moral Busybodies will wave their index finger at you and give you a disapproving look. The Progressive Moral Busybodies will pass a law to make it illegal.
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I think some folks need to recalibrate their meter that distinguishes between "oppressed" and "slightly inconvenienced."
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So a judge ordering a pastor to perform a gay marriage he finds morally, religiously and spirituously repugnant is a "slight inconvenience?"
If the reich was stuffing pastors in gas ovens would that count as oppression? [tinfoil]
When we have a government trying to force companies run by believers to provide abortofacients via their healthcare program, or where judges are "ordering" religious actions against the belief of the church, then however you cut it, we have a government that's grown too big and intrusive and badly needs pruning.
Atleast kudzo isn't an endangered specie. [popcorn]
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So a judge ordering a pastor to perform a gay marriage he finds morally, religiously and spirituously repugnant is a "slight inconvenience?"
If the reich was stuffing pastors in gas ovens would that count as oppression? [tinfoil]
When we have a government trying to force companies run by believers to provide abortofacients via their healthcare program, or where judges are "ordering" religious actions against the belief of the church, then however you cut it, we have a government that's grown too big and intrusive and badly needs pruning.
Atleast kudzo isn't an endangered specie. [popcorn]
You're in the wrong thread. This is the one where Southern Baptists are oppressing the population by making them wait until 1201pm to buy liquor on Sunday.
FTR I am not a baptist of any sort and I live in one of if not the most hostile to religion places in America, so maybe the Sharia Baptists really are a problem in America's Penis Florida.
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http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2014/10/no-guys-its-not-first-amendment.html
Just the thought of someone who is (I believe) slightly respected here
Personally, I prefer the government stay out of religious issues. But I agree with what Peter has written about public businesses (to a point: I also respect a business owner's right to be an ass)
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I guess I shouldn't be surprised that so many believe in the Imaginary Law of the Universe, that opening one's business to the public divests one of control over said business. :facepalm:
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I think it's funny that one loses the religious part of the first amendment if you start a business or get a job, but not the free speech part. Odd how that works.
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Somehow the "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" part got thrown out.
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Somehow the "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" part got thrown out.
What!? You are completely free to exercise it.
For an hour each week. Behind the doors of your chosen sanctuary. On whatever one day of the week you choose.
(Unless you are muslim, of course.)
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You are also completely free to believe that blacks are inferior and subhuman. You just aren't allowed to refuse them service if you own a business
*shrug*
So... if a Pagan owned a gas station, and refused to sell fuel to Christians based on religious beliefs, you would be supportive of them?
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Yea
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You are also completely free to believe that blacks are inferior and subhuman. You just aren't allowed to refuse them service if you own a business
*shrug*
So... if a Pagan owned a gas station, and refused to sell fuel to Christians based on religious beliefs, you would be supportive of them?
Yes. Or a pagan baker. Or photographer. Or Hobby store owner. Or....
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You are also completely free to believe that blacks are inferior and subhuman. You just aren't allowed to refuse them service if you own a business
*shrug*
So... if a Pagan owned a gas station, and refused to sell fuel to Christians based on religious beliefs, you would be supportive of them?
1. Yes
2. Is selling gas a religious endeavor or in any way an endorsement of activity one is morally opposed to? Given that none of these case involve refusal to serve based on sexuality, merely refusal to participate in a specific religious ceremony which they object to.
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You are also completely free to believe that blacks are inferior and subhuman. You just aren't allowed to refuse them service if you own a business
*shrug*
So... if a Pagan owned a gas station, and refused to sell fuel to Christians based on religious beliefs, you would be supportive of them?
Morally, no. Legally, yes. I'd be morally opposed to the way they run their business, just like I'd be morally opposed to a whites-only gas station. But I wouldn't force either of them to change.
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If a business wishing to turn away paying customers, they should be able to do so. As long as they do not seek to prevent competitors from taking that business or starting up to compete with them. Free and open markets is the goal. "Free" applies in a number of ways.