Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Balog on May 18, 2015, 12:09:04 PM
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http://www.hartfordbusiness.com/article/20150518/PRINTEDITION/305159970
Not looking good for them, and I always hate to see a gun manufacturer gets dicked over by f-troop. I found it interesting that they turn out over 12000 lowers a month.
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I have to ask... who did Stag Arms harm with their administrative error?
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Themselves. And perhaps their workers depending on the fallout
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I have to ask... who did Stag Arms harm with their administrative error?
they hurt the feelings of a useless parasite "bureaucrat colossus"
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Speaking of F troop, anyone ever hear anything about Cav Arms?
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This
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1003311_CAV_ARMS_LOSES_FFL_TO_ATF_and_OWNER_ADMITS_TO_ILLEGALLY_SELLING_40_GUNS__COULD_DO_TIME_.html
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And now this
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/04/foghorn/cav-15-returns-to-production-now-on-sale/
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This
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1003311_CAV_ARMS_LOSES_FFL_TO_ATF_and_OWNER_ADMITS_TO_ILLEGALLY_SELLING_40_GUNS__COULD_DO_TIME_.html
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But it's all Oak-a-ley Dok-a-ley when the same .gov bureaucrats do it.
P.S.
Vincent said as much as 90 percent of the government's original case against Cavalry was dismissed, leaving his client pleading guilty to selling to an out-of-state buyer.
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Themselves. And perhaps their workers depending on the fallout
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Harmed by .gov that is...
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Were they good boys just turning their life around?
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Were they good boys just turning their life around?
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I presume you are talking about the agents of the ATF's Phoenix Office whch would have done the Stag Arms thing, you know, after the whole Fast and Furious thing.
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That could apply too I was thinking more of this
http://www.examiner.com/article/atf-cavalry-arms-owner-pleads-guilty
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That could apply too I was thinking more of this
http://www.examiner.com/article/atf-cavalry-arms-owner-pleads-guilty
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who did cavalry arms harm?
The atf exists only to terrorize the gun industry and gun owners with administrative laws that they themselves don't even understand. IIRC, they went after Cavalry arms and stole all if their working capital at gunpoint because of some unintelligible arcane law about injection moulding dies being stired at the wrong location.
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I would have had the lowers serialized within 24 hours of the feds visiting.
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who did cavalry arms harm?
The atf exists only to terrorize the gun industry and gun owners with administrative laws that they themselves don't even understand. IIRC, they went after Cavalry arms and stole all if their working capital at gunpoint because of some unintelligible arcane law about injection moulding dies being stired at the wrong location.
Not just the Gun industry. Moonshiners and Indians, too.
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I would have had the lowers serialized within 24 hours of the feds visiting.
yeah, I agree. I have never dealt with the ATF, but I have dealt with environmental regulators. If you have a problem, you fix it immediately and tell them you fixed it and set up procedures to make sure it doesn't need to be fixed again. Not trying to judge this. Govt regulators can make your life hell. Gotta work self defense in more ways than one.
What I don't like is the apparent attitude of the agent that everyone is guilty and breaking the law, they just haven't found the evidence yet.
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Not just the Gun industry. Moonshiners and Indians, too.
The statement could describe any federal regulators and anyone they regulate.
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True, the ATF is just bigger dicks about it. As you correctly noted, they assume everyone is breaking the law and they will find the evidence soon.
This hasn't been the case with the OSHA, EPA, and USCG regulators i've dealt with personally.
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who did cavalry arms harm?
The atf exists only to terrorize the gun industry and gun owners with administrative laws that they themselves don't even understand. IIRC, they went after Cavalry arms and stole all if their working capital at gunpoint because of some unintelligible arcane law about injection moulding dies being stired at the wrong location.
The injection molding story was the one pitched to us initially by the cavalry arms folks. When they were raising funds fir legal defense. The truth came out later , much later.
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yeah, I agree. I have never dealt with the ATF, but I have dealt with environmental regulators. If you have a problem, you fix it immediately and tell them you fixed it and set up procedures to make sure it doesn't need to be fixed again. Not trying to judge this. Govt regulators can make your life hell. Gotta work self defense in more ways than one.
What I don't like is the apparent attitude of the agent that everyone is guilty and breaking the law, they just haven't found the evidence yet.
I've dealt with the DNR, DEA, and ATF in my role in my last job. while the DNR was state, the ither two were federal.
DEA was the most lax, or at least the most understanding with our processes. We processed hundreds of kilos of morphine, codeine, and fentanyl derivitives. We kept very good records, but If a chemist were to charge, say, 5kgs of morphine to a reactor, and the gross, tare, net were off by 5gm on a container, the DEA would be peperfectly fine and not call it a diversion if 2 chemists witnessed the process.
I found the DEA to be very professional to deal wwith.
The DNR had odd rules, uf they found you in accidental violation, they made allowances for you to update your practices and systems.
The DNR was strict, but nit hard to deal with.
The ATF audited us on our ethanol records (for taxation purposes). I found the atf agents to be petty dick heads. They had the least important auditing job but certainly made up for their relative unimportance with their little man syndrome.
Whatever respect I may have had for them before as at least law enforcement agents rapidly approached zero.
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The injection molding story was the one pitched to us initially by the cavalry arms folks. When they were raising funds fir legal defense. The truth came out later , much later.
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I'm sure that truth was coerced to change by a gestapo agency backed by the federal government its large army of tyranical lawyers,
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He plead guilty to what amounted to serial criminal stupid.
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He plead guilty to what amounted to serial criminal stupid.
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Regardless, stupid shouldn't be a crminal offense, while running guns to drug cartels which gets Americans killed needs to be.
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Very true
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I thought I heard the Cav Arms thing amounted to using a 3rd party to make the plastic receivers in 2 halves then allowing the 3rd party to have both halves of the mold and receivers at the same time. The latter was something I think they were repeatedly told not to do. I am not sure how many warnings or how firm the warnings were, but supposedly they were aware of the problem.
The problem here with Stag about the receivers could almost be something to manufacturing guys were doing without others in the know, but hard to say. I don't know how big their operation is.
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I thought I heard the Cav Arms thing amounted to using a 3rd party to make the plastic receivers in 2 halves then allowing the 3rd party to have both halves of the mold and receivers at the same time. The latter was something I think they were repeatedly told not to do. I am not sure how many warnings or how firm the warnings were, but supposedly they were aware of the problem.
The problem here with Stag about the receivers could almost be something to manufacturing guys were doing without others in the know, but hard to say. I don't know how big their operation is.
Is the problem really anything more than complete procedural BS?
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Stag Arms is a major manufacturer of AR-15s, and their guns have an excellent reputation. I very much doubt that they are (were) fooling around with selling unserialized lowers.
It's interesting how many firearms-related businesses are located on John Downey Drive. That's also the home of Metalform (the magazine maker), and I think a couple more similar companies.
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It's interesting how many firearms-related businesses are located on John Downey Drive. That's also the home of Metalform (the magazine maker), and I think a couple more similar companies.
Its weird how stuff like that works out sometimes. Where I lived in my pre-divorce house, Bartlein Barrels was on the same street, a 5 minute walk away, Krieger barrels was in the next town over, a 5 minute drive away. The Krieger and Criterion High Power Teams usually shot at our club's matches...lots of friendly trash talk between the teams, all top notch shooters.
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Stag Arms is a major manufacturer of AR-15s, and their guns have an excellent reputation. I very much doubt that they are (were) fooling around with selling unserialized lowers.
It's interesting how many firearms-related businesses are located on John Downey Drive. That's also the home of Metalform (the magazine maker), and I think a couple more similar companies.
IIRC Springfield Armory, Rock River Arms and one of the custom gun builders are all located really close to each other in of all places here in Illinois.
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IIRC Springfield Armory, Rock River Arms and one of the custom gun builders are all located really close to each other in of all places here in Illinois.
When your business requires certain specialized skills, it's a good idea to locate where such skilled labor already is.
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The DOJ does maintain that a shoelace possession can be prosecuted as possession of automatic weaponry.
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Maybe one day we'll have a government that prefers to focus on crimes that are malum in se instead of malum prohibitum.
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Maybe one day we'll have a government that prefers to focus on crimes that are malum in se instead of malum prohibitum.
Nabbing murderers is dangerous, time consuming, and costly. Nabbing regulatory rule breakers is danger-free, easy, and can make the enforcers a lot of money.
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Nabbing murderers is dangerous, time consuming, and costly. Nabbing regulatory rule breakers is danger-free, easy, and can make the enforcers a lot of money.
This. Eloquently, if depressingly, put.
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Is the problem really anything more than complete procedural BS?
It was procedural BS that was a core part of being licensed as a firearms manufacturer. Compliance is a big deal. Yeah, it would be great to get rid of those regulations, but that is not the world we live in. (Referring to Cav Arms not Stag.
My company has had issues before with FDA and EPA, but we can't afford to screw around with regulations when the govt auditors get involved. I hear the BATFE is worse than most others so that makes it even more important to be careful.
I wasn't clear on what exactly triggered laying down the hammer on Stag. It sounds like they had an issue flagged in an audit and didn't fix it? Not sure.
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It was procedural BS that was a core part of being licensed as a firearms manufacturer. Compliance is a big deal. Yeah, it would be great to get rid of those regulations, but that is not the world we live in. (Referring to Cav Arms not Stag.
My company has had issues before with FDA and EPA, but we can't afford to screw around with regulations when the govt auditors get involved. I hear the BATFE is worse than most others so that makes it even more important to be careful.
I wasn't clear on what exactly triggered laying down the hammer on Stag. It sounds like they had an issue flagged in an audit and didn't fix it? Not sure.
I understand it's that state of things, but it doesn't suck any less because of that.
Just makes me mad is all.
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Agreed. It is odd having a state environmental person auditing you who knows nothing about your process and nothing about how it works, but it just making sure you can show you are complying with all the regulations. Those guys are probably smart as far as Govt regulators go.
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From my understanding the BATFEIO-EIO can and does change the rules without notice or warning. Often from one agent to the next. Agent A says do X. A year later Agent B comes in and you get in trouble for doing X.
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While not likely applicable here the ATF also has the bad habit of drafting or changing rules after they arrest, seize, or investigate someone specifically to screw one person over. The requirement that firearm serial numbers require at least one number is an example.