Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Battle Monkey of Zardoz on December 05, 2015, 01:12:58 AM
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Ok. First real shots fired. They want our guns. Going to be interesting how bad they want them. I do not care who is listening, monitoring this forum etc.... I WILL NOT GIVE UP MY FIREARMS. PERIOD!! I WILL NOT TURN THEM IN.
Understand this. Get this in your delusional head, it won't happen. If you want my firearms, you are going to have to come and take them. It's your move.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/12/04/when-you-read-last-paragraphs-of-ny-times-editorial-youll-understand-why-gun-owners-are-infuriated/
It is not necessary to debate the peculiar wording of the Second Amendment. No right is unlimited and immune from reasonable regulation.
Certain kinds of weapons, like the slightly modified combat rifles used in California, and certain kinds of ammunition, must be outlawed for civilian ownership. It is possible to define those guns in a clear and effective way and, yes, it would require Americans who own those kinds of weapons to give them up for the good of their fellow citizens.
What better time than during a presidential election to show, at long last, that our nation has retained its sense of decency?
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All that's really needed here is some slight editing of the Second Amendment.
"A well-regulated militia bunch of collectors and hunters, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear antique arms, shall not be infringed, unless infringing said right prevents crime makes some of us feel more gooder about stuff."
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Ok. First real shots fired. They want our guns. Going to be interesting how bad they want them. I do not care who is listening, monitoring this forum etc.... I WILL NOT GIVE UP MY FIREARMS. PERIOD!! I WILL NOT TURN THEM IN.
Understand this. Get this in your delusional head, it won't happen. If you want my firearms, you are going to have to come and take them. It's your move.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/12/04/when-you-read-last-paragraphs-of-ny-times-editorial-youll-understand-why-gun-owners-are-infuriated/
Ya know, I'd like to think that a serious attempt to ban and confiscate common firearms would lead to a real shaking out. I still feel (hope?) that in the first place those in power aren't stupid enough or arrogant enough to really go for it. In the second place, if they are that stupid/arrogant, while there would be some scattered ugliness, dismissed by the press as a few rightwing extremist/domestic terrorists, I just don't think there is enough intestinal fortitude (balls) left to make a difference.
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From the New York Times front page editorial.....
"Certain kinds of weapons, like the slightly modified combat rifles used in California, and certain kinds of ammunition, must be outlawed for civilian ownership. It is possible to define those guns in a clear and effective way and, yes, it would require Americans who own those kinds of weapons to give them up for the good of their fellow citizens."
I offer that withOUT editorial.
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I used to get all worked up and worried and angry over *expletive deleted*it like this until I realized that the liberals are idiots who are more akin to angry toddlers than anything else. They have little power outside of their enclaves (I.e major cities). They can wail and gnash their teeth all they want but they aren't going to get much traction outside of their little kingdoms.
And even in the extremely unlikely event should they manage to pass a confiscation law there isn't going to be a whole lot of people willing to attempt that suicidal job...and the pussy ass liberals aren't going to do it themselves, that's for sure.
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Hey journalists....
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi958.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae70%2FGolfbuddy45%2FRemington700VSSF2231.jpg&hash=3b5fd3b04019c959622a5a8a186e392c8711cf4c)
and
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblaze.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F11%2FScreenSnapz0341.jpg&hash=e89cd2c53cd460442a2cf8a85e48dcaedab55100)
Take the same ammunition.
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Hey journalists....
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi958.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae70%2FGolfbuddy45%2FRemington700VSSF2231.jpg&hash=3b5fd3b04019c959622a5a8a186e392c8711cf4c)
and
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblaze.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F11%2FScreenSnapz0341.jpg&hash=e89cd2c53cd460442a2cf8a85e48dcaedab55100)
Take the same ammunition.
Assualt weapon and high powered precision long range sniper rifle. Noone needs those! Ban them for teh childrens!
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I'm not worried.
I live in left-leaning Northern VA and work for a left leaning British owned corporation. Most of my coworkers are what I'd classify as either centrist or left leaning, or left leaning libertarian at best. I'm probably the most conservative of the bunch and consider myself not as conservative as many on this board. Just to give you an idea of what I'm coming from...
Even after this shooting, nobody at work is calling for gun control. Anyone who has commented have all agreed it isn't the guns and more laws wouldn't help one bit. One of those coworkers really surprised me because she appears to be your stereotypical NoVA yuppie type, yet she was adamant it wasn't the guns but the people at fault here. When we started talking about it, I just knew she was going to say something about how those guns should be outlawed or something. Boy was I wrong. :)
I'm seeing other positive signs as well. The gun shops and ranges are busy, yet filled with "normal" looking people (not commando wannabes, "rednecks", etc). We recently got a new premium indoor range that offers training and gunsmith services. It is the most expensive hourly range in the region. I frequently see "gun culture" stuff all over the place. Not just your Browning buck profile, but Magpul and other non-hunting symbols. I overhear gun-positive conversations while out and about.
We're always going to see the hardcore leftys clamoring for bans, but I'm getting a more positive vibe these days. I think people are starting to get the message.
Chris
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Don't forget teh "long rifle" ammo :facepalm: [tinfoil]
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A confiscatory ban sounds fun.
When can we start?
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Full article:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/12/05/opinion/end-the-gun-epidemic-in-america.html?referer=http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/12/04/when-you-read-last-paragraphs-of-ny-times-editorial-youll-understand-why-gun-owners-are-infuriated/
I don't think they are taking just about evil looking ARs. As we all know, every firearm is their goal.
Another excerpt:
It is past time to stop talking about halting the spread of firearms, and instead to reduce their number drastically — eliminating some large categories of weapons and ammunition.
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"eliminating some large categories of weapons and ammunition." Specifically all those that go "bang!"
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"eliminating some large categories of weapons and ammunition." Specifically all those that go "bang!"
Here are the categories:
Assault-style rifles.
Military-grade weapons.
Ghost guns.
Large-caliber weapons.
Large-capacity firearms.
Semi-azimuth-omatics.
Shoulder things that go up.
Porcelain Glocks.
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Here are the categories:
Assault-style rifles.
Military-grade weapons.
Ghost guns.
Large-caliber weapons.
Large-capacity firearms.
Semi-azimuth-omatics.
Shoulder things that go up.
Porcelain Glocks.
You forgot "guns that shoot hollow point cop killer bullets".
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You forgot "guns that shoot hollow point cop killer bullets".
Both the guns that shoot cop killer boolets and the cop killer boolets.
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A confiscatory ban sounds fun.
When can we start?
I'll be your Huckleberry.
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It ain't much but it will be "fun" for a bit!
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2Fguns%2Fmolon_labe.jpg&hash=616d0a17a617b673ceac7a07a10643f065f82d6c)
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I'd like another 30 or 40 years thank you very much. The left does seem to be in a bit of a hurry lately though.
They were so methodical and patient for so long it's finally nice to see them out themselves for the communists they have always been.
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I'm not worried.
I live in left-leaning Northern VA and work for a left leaning British owned corporation. Most of my coworkers are what I'd classify as either centrist or left leaning, or left leaning libertarian at best. I'm probably the most conservative of the bunch and consider myself not as conservative as many on this board. Just to give you an idea of what I'm coming from...
Even after this shooting, nobody at work is calling for gun control. Anyone who has commented have all agreed it isn't the guns and more laws wouldn't help one bit. One of those coworkers really surprised me because she appears to be your stereotypical NoVA yuppie type, yet she was adamant it wasn't the guns but the people at fault here. When we started talking about it, I just knew she was going to say something about how those guns should be outlawed or something. Boy was I wrong. :)
I'm seeing other positive signs as well. The gun shops and ranges are busy, yet filled with "normal" looking people (not commando wannabes, "rednecks", etc). We recently got a new premium indoor range that offers training and gunsmith services. It is the most expensive hourly range in the region. I frequently see "gun culture" stuff all over the place. Not just your Browning buck profile, but Magpul and other non-hunting symbols. I overhear gun-positive conversations while out and about.
We're always going to see the hardcore leftys clamoring for bans, but I'm getting a more positive vibe these days. I think people are starting to get the message.
Chris
It is surprising, but I've been seeing the same thing among the more intelligent of the left leaning folks. These days, it seems the only rabid anti gunners are the ones who are just stupid and obsessed. The ones who were actually dangerous to the RKBA (the ones who didn't really know much about guns, didn't really care other than wanting safer neighborhoods and mostly just followed along the party lines because, at the time, it sounded sensible to them) seem to be coming around.
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You forgot "guns that shoot hollow point cop killer bullets".
That's hollow-nosed cop killer bullets. Though I'm not sure if the hollow noses refers to the bullets, or the cops. I guess it's both.
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Sure, it's nice to see that your left-leaning co-workers and acquaintances are starting to see the light, but they aren't the ones we need to worry about. It's the leftist idiots in the national and state legislatures. They are frothing at the mouth to implement draconian gun control.
If the legislators at any level gain some traction and manage to get anti-gun bills headed for executive signature, your leftist friends won't care a bit. They won't lift a finger in protest. It will just be us on the conservative and libertarian sides opposing anti-gun actions, as it always has been.
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This is the intellectual wattage of our opponents. (http://dailycaller.com/2015/12/03/democratic-rep-sanchez-decries-multiautomatic-round-weapons-video/)
And they have nothing.
The demographics of the military and the police outside of the big blue cities are not favorable towards gun control. They have very few enforcers. And those they do have likely do not have the passion for their cause that we on our side have for ours. That is they are not likely to be willing undergo much privation or risk of harm to force their views on us.
Given the number of gun owners and the geography of the country they simply do not have a physical mechanism to collect the guns.
They are not wise enough to understand this however and think that if they pass the law people will go along with it. And we won't. In fact more guns will be purchased and more people will get training and what will the controllers do then?
They'll throw tantrums and type in all caps and write letters to editors and be their usual insulting, snarky, and self-righteous selves but outside of that they have nothing.
They get no choice in the matter.
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This is the intellectual wattage of our opponents. (http://dailycaller.com/2015/12/03/democratic-rep-sanchez-decries-multiautomatic-round-weapons-video/)
The demographics of the military and the police outside of the big blue cities are not favorable towards gun control. They have very few enforcers. And those they do have likely do not have the passion for their cause that we on our side have for ours. That is they are not likely to be willing undergo much privation or risk of harm to force their views on us.
My Sheriff's dept is very 2A friendly. Confiscatory laws wouldn't go over well with them, and I really don't want to mix it up with them.
Feds I don't know dumb enough to try, game on.
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The 'calculus' (had to use an obama word) on this stuff is easy.
If you are a constitutionalist, and they decide to confiscate your guns, consider yourself already dead.
When you consider yourself already dead, you have ultimate freedom to do anything you want.
Kill something evil, move on to the next evil, join up with others killing evil... lather, rinse, repeat.
Every gun owner in this country knows someone close by who would vote for or support violent, forceful confiscation. Right there is your starting point.
This *expletive deleted*it is a lot easier than anyone can imagine.
Edit: If anyone thinks that this post makes me sound like a violent radical- I'm not. I just want to go to work every day, bring home a check, have a few beers once in awhile and live a quiet, peaceful life in a place where my kids can grow up in relative freedom and do the same. *expletive deleted*ck with me, and all bets are off.
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The 'calculus' (had to use an obama word) on this stuff is easy.
If you are a constitutionalist, and they decide to confiscate your guns, consider yourself already dead.
When you consider yourself already dead, you have ultimate freedom to do anything you want.
Kill something evil, move on to the next evil, join up with others killing evil... lather, rinse, repeat.
Every gun owner in this country knows someone close by who would vote for or support violent, forceful confiscation. Right there is your starting point.
This *expletive deleted*it is a lot easier than anyone can imagine.
Edit: If anyone thinks that this post makes me sound like a violent radical- I'm not. I just want to go to work every day, bring home a check, have a few beers once in awhile and live a quiet, peaceful life in a place where my kids can grow up in relative freedom and do the same. *expletive deleted*ck with me, and all bets are off.
It's their move, anything we do at this point will be reactionary.
After the first one, the rest are free.
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They are not wise enough to understand this however and think that if they pass the law people will go along with it. And we won't. In fact more guns will be purchased...
And most of them will have custom lowers, with "Multiautomatic" in the FA position.
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And most of them will have custom lowers, with "Multiautomatic" in the FA position.
... and 30-magazine clips that empty in half a second.
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Are those the magazines that are consumed with use?
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Are those the magazines that are consumed with use?
The very same.
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Please make gun banning and confiscation a major plank of the Democrat Presidential run. That would motivate more voters to vote Republican than any other issue. Even Romney or Jeb could win.
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Even Romney or Jeb could win.
Not that we'd want them to.
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Not that we'd want them to.
I guess I took that as a given, but I shouldn't.
I caught a few minutes of a news discussion show on Fox this morning. They talked about gun control. The designated liberal was making the usual emotional pleas, but even Brit Hume noted that Americans were voting on the issue by buying more guns. He mentioned the record gun sales on Black Friday before the attack in Cali.
I think gun control is more of a losing issue now than in 1994. it sells well to leftist Dems and commies which is why the Dem candidates are talking it up trying to win their primaries. It won't win in the general election. It will be interesting to see if the Dem nominee keeps talking about it after the primaries are decided.
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Assualt weapon and high powered precision long range sniper rifle. Noone needs those! Ban them for teh childrens!
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.gunsholstersandgear.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F01%2FCMMG_Muzzleloader_AR15_03.jpg&hash=da010ccbb38e5a676f68565445b48a98a159307f)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpicturearchive.gunauction.com%2F9919214713%2F12523377%2Fthdpa.jpg_thumbnail0.jpg&hash=0e80ef6a852493288385a05d35f8d8679aa02f4f)
Same extra deadly 50 caliber ammo.
(Yes, that's the CMMG muzzleloading upper. Check out the mag (http://cdn.gunsholstersandgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/CMMG_Muzzleloader_AR15_02.jpg).)
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Check out the mag (http://cdn.gunsholstersandgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/CMMG_Muzzleloader_AR15_02.jpg).
What's with the empty cartridges?
Edit: Looked it up. Apparently they hold a 209 primer...seems like it would result in suboptimal ignition of the powder.
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Well, the mangling and misuse of firearms related terms is already starting:
Additionally, investigators believe both Farook & Malik were "dry-firing" in the back yard of another Southern California home in the days leading up to the attack, according to law enforcement sources. Dry-firing, as explained by a source, is pulling a gun's trigger with no bullets in the weapon's chamber.
"The intent is to train the mind to kill,” the source told Fox late Sunday.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/12/07/dry-run-san-bernardino-shooter-practiced-at-gun-range-days-before-attack/?intcmp=hpbt3
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"Journalism," as explained by a source, is writing articles about stuff from an ivory tower, with no practical experience in anything.
"The intent," the source said, "is to train the mind to sound clever at the next cocktail party."
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For some odd reason, the left thinks if this goes wet it will be cops and military against them bitter clingers.
They have not even figured out the contestants yet. Like they say, if you are in a poker game, and you can't figure out who the sucker is....
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For some odd reason, the left thinks if this goes wet it will be cops and military against them bitter clingers.
They have not even figured out the contestants yet. Like they say, if you are in a poker game, and you can't figure out who the sucker is....
Maybe not not mid-term, but short-term and long-term it will be so.
1. Short-term cops and .mil will do what they are told the first few times.
2. In the mid-term, some will balk after they figure out what is going on.
3. Those that balk will be replaced with more morally flexible sorts willing to to the bidding of their paymasters.
4. Long-term, expect the LEO and .mil to be just fine with whatever their employer wants. And don't expect kid-glove ROEs like what was the norm in A-stan and Iraq towards the end.
We must keep in mind that authoritarians have little trouble finding folk to do their dirty work as long as:
1. They pay well and that pay is not interrupted.
2. The authoritarians are perceived to be in control/on top.
3. It is not too risky.
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Maybe not not mid-term, but short-term and long-term it will be so.
1. Short-term cops and .mil will do what they are told the first few times.
2. In the mid-term, some will balk after they figure out what is going on.
3. Those that balk will be replaced with more morally flexible sorts willing to to the bidding of their paymasters.
4. Long-term, expect the LEO and .mil to be just fine with whatever their employer wants. And don't expect kid-glove ROEs like what was the norm in A-stan and Iraq towards the end.
We must keep in mind that authoritarians have little trouble finding folk to do their dirty work as long as:
1. They pay well and that pay is not interrupted.
2. The authoritarians are perceived to be in control/on top.
3. It is not too risky.
The pay could be an issue.
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The pay could be an issue.
If several million elderly on social security have to tighten their belts to pay for the gunstapo, then I suspect they'll be expected to tighten their belts.
The former USSR managed to pay army, kgb, gru, etc. while not having a real economy. And N Korea does the same today.
Oh, and if my comment is a splash of cold water, the following is a firehose:
Jewish Ghetto Police or Jewish Police Service (German: Jüdische Ghetto-Polizei or Jüdischer Ordnungsdienst), also referred to by Jews as the Jewish Police, were auxiliary police units organized within the Jewish ghettos of German-occupied Eastern Europe by local Judenrat councils under the ultimate authority of the Nazi occupiers...
They were used by the Germans primarily for securing the deportation of other Jews to the concentration camps...
The Jüdischer Ordnungsdienst were recruited from two separate groups, who could be relied upon to follow German orders. The first were Jewish lawyers, disbarred by the Nazi occupiers, largely recruited by deputy commander Jakub Lejkin, himself later killed by the Jewish Resistance. The second, larger and more criminally active group, were recruited from among pre-War Jewish organised crime groups. [1] The first commander of the Warsaw ghetto was Józef Szeryński, a Jewish lieutenant-colonel in the pre-War Polish Police.
... there was a secret department, Section 13, known as the "Jewish Gestapo". It specialised in tracking down Jewish people outside the Ghetto walls, as well as their Polish helpers, and often profited by extorting them.
It looks like the Jewish Ghetto Police got irregular pay and largely subsisted on bribes extracted from other Jews to not get put on the train to an extermination camp ( http://www.yivoencyclopedia.org/article.aspx/Ghettos/Ghetto_Police ).
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I do not counsel despair, but I think a clear understanding of what particular scenarios entail is important.
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3. It is not too risky.
Hehe. >:D
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Here's the thing that makes banning and confiscation all the more entertaining...
First thing they need to do is get authority to go into homes/buildings to looks for guns. Can't get a search warrant for every home that could have a gun, as there isn't probable cause for every structure in the US. So, you suspend the 4th Amendment and allow LEOs to search every home.
Except there aren't enough LEOs to do the searches in a timely fashion. I mean, where I live, the county has approximately 200,000 people spread out across 700 square miles. At the same time, there may be 200 LEOs for the whole county. So, LEOs will need more bodies. Suspend Posse Comitatus and allow the military to join in the searching.
Now, once you put LEOs (real or deputized soldiers) legally in the home to search for weapons, it's not a simple task. You can hide a firearm or it's parts just about anywhere in a home. So, they'll need to look in every closet, every drawer, and everything in the house gets dumped on the floor and picked through. Suddenly, there are no more secrets in your home. That little baggie of grass for a quiet Saturday night with the wife? Confiscated, and you'll get charged. Make that cocaine, and you're a felon. Financial records? Probably look through those. Since ghost guns are an issue, they'll need to search your computer. Again, there's no 4th Amendment issues, so they'll force it open, or take the drive with them. Encrypted? Maybe they better suspend the 5th Amendment as well, and force everyone to open their drives for inspection.
This just scratches the surface. There are issues with people being able to move materials from and area about to be searched to one which has already been searched, the burden on the court system of having all of these people charged for what is found in their home (firearm related or otherwise), the issue of seizing property without compensation. Bottom line is that without violent opposition, merely non-violent, non-cooperation on the part of some people, it is already a Constitutional nightmare, and a logistical quagmire.
Want to watch a liberal's head spin? Walk them through the Constitutional problems with banning and confiscation. In my experience, they'll often concur with suspending 4A for the search, right up to the point when I talk about their home being searched, the scope of the search, the damage to their property, and the fact that they will likely be charged for anything illegal found in their home (like the little baggie of grass in the nightstand). Suddenly, they see the problem...
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If several million elderly on social security have to tighten their belts to pay for the gunstapo, then I suspect they'll be expected to tighten their belts.
The former USSR managed to pay army, kgb, gru, etc. while not having a real economy. And N Korea does the same today.
Oh, and if my comment is a splash of cold water, the following is a firehose:
It looks like the Jewish Ghetto Police got irregular pay and largely subsisted on bribes extracted from other Jews to not get put on the train to an extermination camp ( http://www.yivoencyclopedia.org/article.aspx/Ghettos/Ghetto_Police ).
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I do not counsel despair, but I think a clear understanding of what particular scenarios entail is important.
Except that city, county, and state LEO's don't work for the federal govt and really don't report to them. And a lot of local LEO's aren't really paid that well and have to hang around once the Feds leave. I don't think it is useful to assume all the LEO's suddenly become gastapo simply because some wannbe dictator says so.
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Chris, I think we would also see a lot of non-compliance with local LEO's such as pencil whipping the searches.
I realize that some areas like Boston where the cops are already gestapo, this stuff might just happen. I don't think that is the case everywhere. I really struggle to come up with a scenario where LEO's across the entire country would fall in line with this stuff. What would have to happen?
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Except that city, county, and state LEO's don't work for the federal govt and really don't report to them. And a lot of local LEO's aren't really paid that well and have to hang around once the Feds leave. I don't think it is useful to assume all the LEO's suddenly become gastapo simply because some wannbe dictator says so.
Good thing that was not the argument I made.
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Except that city, county, and state LEO's don't work for the federal govt and really don't report to them. And a lot of local LEO's aren't really paid that well and have to hang around once the Feds leave. I don't think it is useful to assume all the LEO's suddenly become gastapo simply because some wannbe dictator says so.
Plus, the ones that do "go Gestapo" will probably suffer a career-ending injury early on.....hard to be a tyrant when people know where you live.
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I realize that some areas like Boston where the cops are already gestapo, this stuff might just happen. I don't think that is the case everywhere. I really struggle to come up with a scenario where LEO's across the entire country would fall in line with this stuff. What would have to happen?
Even in Gestapo-blue cities, what happens when one known instance of "shots fired" is going on? Yeah, that, every available unit comes running, contain the scene, scene commander, SWAT etc.
Has it EVER happened in living memory where someone who was PO'ed at the police walked up to the police milling around outside the perimeter just manning a squad car and roadblock and unloaded? I'm not talking about a few pops from a Hi-Point (well, even then!) but a string of aimed fire from a rifle with an optic?
There's your "Buckle Up Baby Jesus" moment. It will be bedlam. Just two or three people doing that in a city outside the perimeter of the stand-off/siege... ZOMGWTFBBQ111!!!/SHTF/ZPOC. (Insert the pansy future cops from Demolition Man movie "We aren't trained to handle this kind of violence!")
It would take awhile before the real bloodthirsty shoot-first, fast, and often, don't ask for compliance ROE gets going. National Guard? Not knowing how many would be on "our side"? Standing around (at first) with empty mags?
The pro-RKBA who crow about the HUGE SCALE of the problem, and logistical impossibility of confiscation, should some political miracle for the anti-RKBA side make it possible, starts becoming clear, it's not bragging, it's just a fact. Let's not even get into the possibility that the urban underclass might think this is a good time to riot and loot with the police so busy...
SS-Nazis with ZERO compunction about "Civil American Society" or any kind of constitutional rights, or decent behavior were held off how long by roughly 7-8 firearms in the Warsaw Ghetto?
And in small towns, red counties? Halfhearted at best. The populace knows who their spouses and children are and where they live if they do betray their citizens, and things got froggy. So even if the morality of the thing doesn't prevent it, the potential for reprisals will.
Why the lefty disconnect? Why do they think this is even possible without igniting CWII and the Matt Bracken Murder-Cube and big-fish-swallow-little-fish rings of guerilla warfare and ethnic cleansing?
http://westernrifleshooters.blogspot.com/2010/07/bracken-cw2-cube-mapping-meta-terrain.html
It's a mix of things. People in the big-city MSM Lefty coastal bubble haven't really thought it through. They also don't realize that barring minor harassment by EO from the White House, national gun control is a dead-letter, the DNC knows it, and this "New resurgence in the gun debate! The tide might be turning!"-feeling that the chatterbox class is thinking about, they don't understand is just a pro-forma display by the Left to keep from losing an even more embarrassing amount of ground in 2016, more Senate Seats, House Seats, and state-level races etc. by pandering to their 30% hard-left core base.
If the squishy middle, or moderates were even "in play" for 2016, you'd hear crickets on gun control, save maybe one day editorial blips from the usual MSM suspects after an incident. And watch for the gun issue to die off closer to November 2016 as the Democrats try to scrape up whatever middle/moderates/undecideds/social conservative blue collar union votes they can.
Want to watch a liberal's head spin? Walk them through the Constitutional problems with banning and confiscation. In my experience, they'll often concur with suspending 4A for the search, right up to the point when I talk about their home being searched, the scope of the search, the damage to their property, and the fact that they will likely be charged for anything illegal found in their home (like the little baggie of grass in the nightstand). Suddenly, they see the problem...
And if the light doesn't go on, and they don't see the problem. Or they triumphantly shout that "If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide!"...
That's the guy you go for if the lights go out and there's fire on the horizon.
As Brimic knows, Wisconsin also has the public database of the contentious gubernatorial recall petition. It would make a damn handy phone-book for a Pyrrhic victory/payback SHTF with no winners, but some losers bigger than others...
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Maybe not not mid-term, but short-term and long-term it will be so.
1. Short-term cops and .mil will do what they are told the first few times.
2. In the mid-term, some will balk after they figure out what is going on.
3. Those that balk will be replaced with more morally flexible sorts willing to to the bidding of their paymasters.
4. Long-term, expect the LEO and .mil to be just fine with whatever their employer wants. And don't expect kid-glove ROEs like what was the norm in A-stan and Iraq towards the end.
We must keep in mind that authoritarians have little trouble finding folk to do their dirty work as long as:
1. They pay well and that pay is not interrupted.
2. The authoritarians are perceived to be in control/on top.
3. It is not too risky.
This post is (IMO) Pretty much entirely wrong.
1. Cops might, as long as the first targets picked are the "right low lifes". The Military won't. Or not in big enough numbers to make a difference. In my dealings with the Army, both Active and Reserve, conservatively, 85% or so say that the order to search houses domestically (for anything really) is the "go off the reservation" threshold. The lessons of Katrina were not lost on us. Again, careful target picking early on might help the numbers but not by much.
2. Balk is not the reaction that get's thrown around discussions among Military officers. More like "We need to actively intervene and stop LE from doing this."
3. and 4. Many will take off, and/or get replaced. Then you will have a new LEO/Military force that is untrained, with no experience, and none of the Esprit de Corps and history that makes the US military strong, facing an insurgent US military.
4b. I think it will. The folks that forced those ROE are on the other side, and will even more desperatly need to try and assure the public that everything is OK. ROE (on their side) will be stupid.
Second paragraph:
1. They can always print that money, but it might be hard to spend and worth less.
2 and 3 will end quickly.
The flip side is that the current .mil folks that counter this know how to run an insurgency, know how to (and how not to) fight one, and will be both pissed off, and not really expecting to survive. I think you would see the insurgents pretty quickly doing things like: Organized ambushes against LEO, Targeted assassinations of prominent figures, Personal attacks against troops doing the search/oppressing. (Things like they go to work in the morning to take some guns, and their house is burned down).
Bottom line, it would be much uglier, much faster than I think anyone but the folks with guns now realize. Millions would probably die. Whatever emerged from the fire would not be the same country we have today.
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I don't think we're at risk for any meaningful gun control.
BUT...
if it happened, everyone's little Bracken-fantasy would not be how it went down. They're not going to go door-to-door taking guns. They will simply become illegal and you'll be given a window to turn them in. After that, you get caught with one and it's Fed prison time. So you kept yours and hid it in your attic? What for? You didn't put it to use and you can't practice with it now. In 50 years your grandkids will find it and post up on TFL asking what to do with Grandpa's old AR from back when they were illegal. It'll be like an unregistered full-auto rifle today. No way to make it legal, no way to use it legally. It'll become an albatross around your neck. Confiscation by attrition.
Chris
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What mtnbkr said. They're not dumb enough to do a nationwide house-to-house forced confiscation.
Possession of a firearm will merely become yet another thing they can nail you for at any time, another step towards making everyone in the country guilty of a felony for leverage purposes.
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I don't think we're at risk for any meaningful gun control.
BUT...
if it happened, everyone's little Bracken-fantasy would not be how it went down. They're not going to go door-to-door taking guns. They will simply become illegal and you'll be given a window to turn them in. After that, you get caught with one and it's Fed prison time. So you kept yours and hid it in your attic? What for? You didn't put it to use and you can't practice with it now. In 50 years your grandkids will find it and post up on TFL asking what to do with Grandpa's old AR from back when they were illegal. It'll be like an unregistered full-auto rifle today. No way to make it legal, no way to use it legally. It'll become an albatross around your neck. Confiscation by attrition.
Chris
In 50 years the grandchildren will be in a gulag having rats chew their intestines. Gun confiscation is the first step, not the last. You want to know where they will be? "Drawings from the Gulag", image search.
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What mtnbkr said. They're not dumb enough to do a nationwide house-to-house forced confiscation.
Possession of a firearm will merely become yet another thing they can nail you for at any time, another step towards making everyone in the country guilty of a felony for leverage purposes.
They were dumb enough to do Obamacare........or perhaps that was just evil. >:D
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What mtnbkr said. They're not dumb enough to do a nationwide house-to-house forced confiscation.
Possession of a firearm will merely become yet another thing they can nail you for at any time, another step towards making everyone in the country guilty of a felony for leverage purposes.
Unfortunately, a likely scenario.
You can ignore the "turn them in" order for the most part, unless you live in a state like CA where they are tracked, then you might have someone knocking on your door as is what happened here with certain AKs in the past, and would certainly happen with registered ARs if this were to happen now.
For the freer states, the gov won't have your guns, but now what? You can't use them for fun. If you defend yourself with one in a home invasion for instance, you'll be alive but going to jail. About the only thing you'll be able to use the guns for is full out insurrection, which is kind of a one shot deal. Might turn out good, might turn out bad.
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Chris, I think we would also see a lot of non-compliance with local LEO's such as pencil whipping the searches.
I realize that some areas like Boston where the cops are already gestapo, this stuff might just happen. I don't think that is the case everywhere. I really struggle to come up with a scenario where LEO's across the entire country would fall in line with this stuff. What would have to happen?
Oh, I know a lot of LEOs and .mil types won't follow orders and go on a house-by-house search. That would make it all the more impossible for any confiscation plan.
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Oh, I know a lot of LEOs and .mil types won't follow orders and go on a house-by-house search. That would make it all the more impossible for any confiscation plan.
I'm glad you have that faith. Military yes, but that 2A friendly cop buddy will come and get your guns. The "just following orders" runs deep.
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This post is (IMO) Pretty much entirely wrong.
1. Cops might, as long as the first targets picked are the "right low lifes". The Military won't. Or not in big enough numbers to make a difference. In my dealings with the Army, both Active and Reserve, conservatively, 85% or so say that the order to search houses domestically (for anything really) is the "go off the reservation" threshold. The lessons of Katrina were not lost on us. Again, careful target picking early on might help the numbers but not by much.
2. Balk is not the reaction that get's thrown around discussions among Military officers. More like "We need to actively intervene and stop LE from doing this."
3. and 4. Many will take off, and/or get replaced. Then you will have a new LEO/Military force that is untrained, with no experience, and none of the Esprit de Corps and history that makes the US military strong, facing an insurgent US military.
4b. I think it will. The folks that forced those ROE are on the other side, and will even more desperatly need to try and assure the public that everything is OK. ROE (on their side) will be stupid.
Second paragraph:
1. They can always print that money, but it might be hard to spend and worth less.
2 and 3 will end quickly.
The flip side is that the current .mil folks that counter this know how to run an insurgency, know how to (and how not to) fight one, and will be both pissed off, and not really expecting to survive. I think you would see the insurgents pretty quickly doing things like: Organized ambushes against LEO, Targeted assassinations of prominent figures, Personal attacks against troops doing the search/oppressing. (Things like they go to work in the morning to take some guns, and their house is burned down).
Bottom line, it would be much uglier, much faster than I think anyone but the folks with guns now realize. Millions would probably die. Whatever emerged from the fire would not be the same country we have today.
I sure hope you're right.
I have my doubts.
A. When I was in, I had a poor opinion of the military's brass. I think the military's brass has degenerated since then.
B. Waco. Tell the .mil that the "bad guys" shot up some LEOs serving a legal warrant, they are diddling kiddies, and are millenial religious fanatics, and you can get them to break out the APCs against folks who never made a hostile move toward anyone, save the day they were attacked. And then burn them alive. Military types won't have a choice: obey or face UCMJ. LEO types will have a choice: obey or lose your job, pension, and the means to support your family.
C. Any active disobedience, monkey-wrenching, or outright attacks vs unconstitutional orders and those doing the ordering by junior officers would require commo. Good luck pulling off a junior officer-led Valkyrie-ish operation when the NSA & Co are up your fourth point of contact with a boom mic. And to attack, say, FBI agents and locals doing the heavy lifting? Not likely that an infantry captain will sign off drawing weapons from the arms room and the training ammo to run down to the local cop shop or federal building and do some door kicking.
D. How much esprit de corps do you need to slaughter or intimidate most civilians? Have you seen the slobs that call themselves SWAT in many places in this country? I recall a former Marine was shot up by some over-eager SWATties, but what I recall the most about it was the unprofessional way in which they did their job. Fit not to take down a dangerous man, but only against non-resisting or poorly prepared drug dealers.
I don't think we're at risk for any meaningful gun control.
BUT...
if it happened, everyone's little Bracken-fantasy would not be how it went down. They're not going to go door-to-door taking guns. They will simply become illegal and you'll be given a window to turn them in. After that, you get caught with one and it's Fed prison time. So you kept yours and hid it in your attic? What for? You didn't put it to use and you can't practice with it now. In 50 years your grandkids will find it and post up on TFL asking what to do with Grandpa's old AR from back when they were illegal. It'll be like an unregistered full-auto rifle today. No way to make it legal, no way to use it legally. It'll become an albatross around your neck. Confiscation by attrition.
Chris
I can count the number of riots/uprisings due to Somdude being prosecuted under the 1934 NFA and 1968 GCA with no hands.
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Registration leads to confiscation.
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D. How much esprit de corps do you need to slaughter or intimidate most civilians? Have you seen the slobs that call themselves SWAT in many places in this country? I recall a former Marine was shot up by some over-eager SWATties, but what I recall the most about it was the unprofessional way in which they did their job. Fit not to take down a dangerous man, but only against non-resisting or poorly prepared drug dealers.
Even the best SWAT are only good if they use surprise or the people getting their door kicked in are unarmed.
There is a lot of propaganda around SWAT that they are an unopposable force, but with a little preparation, you have at least an even chance of wiping out a team of door kickers. Most of that involves early alert, preventing distraction devies crom coming through windows, and creating obstacles in fatal funnels. Better yet, be 150 yards away in a foxhole with your favorite varmint rifle when they come.bring friends.
They might bring the fight to citizens at first, but that dynamic will quickly reverse when bubba figures out that a case of beer, a few friends with rifles nd a pickup truck is all they need for an afternoon of unathorized hunting. Of course there are millions of Vets who have spent time in the jungle, desert, and mountains that will come up with their own unfair tactics.
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State and local governments cannot print their own money. Any disruption in the flow of taxes and fees will seriously hurt them.
Not only that they rely on private industry for almost everything they use. So a general boycott by suppliers would cripple them in a few weeks if not sooner.
Imagine no gasoline, tires, spares, office supplies, other consumables, food for the jails, contracted maintenance, being personally barred from shopping in places or eating in restaurants and so forth.
A resistance need not be violent to work. Though creative vandalism would speed up the process.
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A resistance need not be violent to work. Though creative vandalism would speed up the process.
Hell, brute force barrage-jam the police frequencies...isn't that hard to build a few kW broadband transmitter and a nice torodial pattern antenna if you don't care about frequency stability, linear gain, or legality...or better yet, make a crapload of small battery powered ones that also jam GPS...oh, and I have a -really- clever way to use those :)
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Find opposing force's antenna. Charge capacitor(s). Tap coax. Inject high voltage spike. Profit?
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Guys, the door to door, kick it in SWAT style and grab up the guns is slightly less likely than me finishing the next Boston Marathon. Too many problems for .gov to overcome, and as soon as they suspended 4A, 5A, and maybe even 1A, it would swing opinions of a lot of libs our way. Nah, just ban 'em, require eveyone to turn them in for a $50 Starbucks gift card, and incarcerate anyone found in possession after the deadline. US already leads the world in prison population. What's a few thousand more?
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Massive public displays of public disobedience.
The NRA, "conservative" media and gun rights groups could mobilize tens of thousands if our government was stupid enough to outlaw guns or even just EBR's.
I just don't think for a moment that our side would be acquiescent in the face of such a power grab.
It would be a call to action and probably non violent, much to the chagrin of our would be tyrants.
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Guys, the door to door, kick it in SWAT style and grab up the guns is slightly less likely than me finishing the next Boston Marathon. Too many problems for .gov to overcome, and as soon as they suspended 4A, 5A, and maybe even 1A, it would swing opinions of a lot of libs our way. Nah, just ban 'em, require eveyone to turn them in for a $50 Starbucks gift card, and incarcerate anyone found in possession after the deadline. US already leads the world in prison population. What's a few thousand more?
But that changes the calculation for gun owners.
At some point, active resistance including violence has the higher expectation of a positive outcome. That is your chance of dying in conflict is small enough to be preferred to the much bigger chance of going to jail and all that implies for your life.
So fighting back becomes the best choice and we're right back in the muck.
In fact, at some point a preemptive purge might be seen by some as the best strategy. I doubt this occurs to the left at all despite their history of doing it to others.
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I've posted it before but here is my more realistic expectation...
Legislation passed to outlaw various classes of firearms.
Amnesty period set for turning in illegal weapons, possibly a "buy back" included.
After amnesty period anyone found in possession will be prosecuted and locked up with severe minimum sentences.
Large rewards posted for people who rat out those evil gun owners. (You can always count on there being plenty of people to sell their soul for a little federal silver)
Late night SWAT raids on suspected gun owners based on information form "good citizens".
Probably a few convenient "tragic natural gas explosions" thrown in for good measure.
Might be a few isolated and quickly hushed up incidents of rightwing Christian extremist terrorists causing a few problems.
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According to these guys http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/ numerous red states have pre-nullified future gun control measures.
Without the state personnel helping them the feds would be in a difficult spot. And if they are actively resisting then the job becomes impossible and that's before the general citizenry gets involved.
Plus the lack of respect for the law and its enforcers would lead to a general loss of respect for the feds overall and things might just unravel for them to the point where they could not mount any kind of action on any issue.
Lastly, how many conservative or libertarian types work for the feds? Do they have critical positions? Would they be willing to leverage their access to stop the enforcement? That's an interesting question, I think.
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Without the state personnel helping them the feds would be in a difficult spot. And if they are actively resisting then the job becomes impossible and that's before the general citizenry gets involved.
That is actually an interesting discussion. Even in CA, many Sheriffs have in the past (and currently) sued the state over various gun laws and/or stated they will not enforce them. If some states choose not to enforce potential Federal gun laws (just like sanctuary cities don't enforce immigration laws), then what?
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That is actually an interesting discussion. Even in CA, many Sheriffs have in the past (and currently) sued the state over various gun laws and/or stated they will not enforce them. If some states choose not to enforce potential Federal gun laws (just like sanctuary cities don't enforce immigration laws), then what?
Then, like now, the Feds shut off the teats of federal monies and the states eventually comply anyway.
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They can only shut it off once. And if it doesn't work then what do they do?
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Hard to say but I think a lot of folks here have an over inflated opinion of not only their fellow citizens but also of the true nature of our elected stalwart conservatives.
It will be ugly, people will die, people will go to prison, but a sweeping federal gun ban will not result in the 2nd civil war. Too many people are more concerned with what the Kardashians are doing or how well their favorite sports franchise is doing than they are with creeping totalitarianism.
The Republic is already dead, and it didn't come with a bang but with a whimper.
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Oh, I know a lot of LEOs and .mil types won't follow orders and go on a house-by-house search. That would make it all the more impossible for any confiscation plan.
They didn't seem to have any problem finding cops to do house-to-house confiscations in New Orleans a few years ago ...
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They didn't seem to have any problem finding cops to do house-to-house confiscations in New Orleans a few years ago ...
Exactly. Katrina showed us what LE would do
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I know a lot of LEOs and .mil types will follow orders, even if that means going door-to-door. But I know a lot of officers who are strong 2A supporters and advocates. They will walk away before they follow such an order. Not all of them. Not even a majority. But, having seen "blue flu" happen, I can see an outbreak happening if they are told to go house to house and forcibly take the guns.
Now, back to the OP, I was at a Scout meeting last night. Heard a lot of men and women talking about buying guns, many of whom I would consider to be libs. There is a growing fear that the enemy is among us, a realization that "when seconds count, cops are minutes away," and a sense that the enemy is not only going to go after high-profile targets. As more people become armed, it will become even harder for .gov to take those weapons away.
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What people need to wake up and remember is that the 2nd Amendment doesn't protect gun ownership- the guns do!
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What people need to wake up and remember is that the 2nd Amendment doesn't protect gun ownership- the guns do!
I can count the number of riots/uprisings due to Somdude being prosecuted under the 1934 NFA and 1968 GCA with no hands.
Add to that the recent bans.
Lots of talk, not much action.
Chris
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Exactly. Katrina showed us what LE would do
I think the Katrina operation had a positive effect on most LE. It jarred many agencies into a "hey, what the hell are doing/thinking" mentality. It started the entire conversation on this issue. And remember that quite a few states passed "No confiscation of firearms during an emergency" laws in the short time after.
I'd be interested in hearing from APS'ers in NY and CT as how the bans/registrations are working there. I've heard that upto 90% of all EBR's weren't registered. So the questions would be:
"Do you friends still take their unregistered EBR's out to the range or to shoot?"
"Does anyone check to see if they are registered?"
"Do you know of any arrests for having an unregistered EBR?"
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Has it EVER happened in living memory where someone who was PO'ed at the police walked up to the police milling around outside the perimeter just manning a squad car and roadblock and unloaded? I'm not talking about a few pops from a Hi-Point (well, even then!) but a string of aimed fire from a rifle with an optic?
That's the thing that POs me about the whole "your rights aren't as important as me going home at the end of the shift" attitude; even with all their "precautions" a small but ruthless group with lever action rifles could slaughter an entire department using a plan so simple it's pathetic. Distract (handful of firecrackers and maybe a bullet through a window at some high priority location like the chief's house or a hospital) wait for maximum response, then engage with aimed fire from 3-4 points outside their perimeter just about the time they're starting to relax.
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That's the thing that POs me about the whole "your rights aren't as important as me going home at the end of the shift" attitude; even with all their "precautions" a small but ruthless group with lever action rifles could slaughter an entire department using a plan so simple it's pathetic. Distract (handful of firecrackers and maybe a bullet through a window at some high priority location like the chief's house or a hospital) wait for maximum response, then engage with aimed fire from 3-4 points outside their perimeter just about the time they're starting to relax.
That. And the fact it is a job one "applies" for. You wanted to be in LE. So, either they want to be special, or have not thought it through that at some point in their career they might be shot at. The prevalent culture in LE to view themselves as some kind of "military", non civilian force is rampant.
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That. And the fact it is a job one "applies" for. You wanted to be in LE. So, either they want to be special, or have not thought it through that at some point in their career they might be shot at.
More importantly, unlike the military, a cop can turn in his badge and go find another job at any time, so not thinking about it beforehand is no excuse.
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More importantly, unlike the military, a cop can turn in his badge and go find another job at any time, so not thinking about it beforehand is no excuse.
We have a winner!
I go out of my way to correct LEOs who refer to non-LEOs as "civilians."
"So, what branch of hte armed forces are you and your police department a member of?"
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I go out of my way to correct LEOs who refer to non-LEOs as "civilians."
"So, what branch of hte armed forces are you and your police department a member of?"
Pet peeve of mine as well. Not just because it is incorrectly attributed, but because it causes people on both sides of the blue line to look at each other differently.
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I would add a few things:
1. This discussion underscores that you need to support your gun rights organizations that are lobbying and fighting right now. It is much much cheaper and easier to spare some cash now versus after the fact. You might think about that the next time you get that junk mail.
2. Our entire law enforcement and domestic security apparatus is highly dispersed among many departments and governments. Trying to predict whether they will all line up with tyranny or not is impossible. They aren't all libertarians, but they are not all jack boots either.
3. Judging by the non-compliance with assault weapon bans in New York State, it won't just be a few thousand gun owners being rounded up. It will be more like 80 million. More likely a large number of states will not comply. I just think a whole lot of things would have to change quite a bit to allow something like this to happen. Maybe I am judging that based on being in a smaller town in Texas.
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ISIS, Taliban, IRA, Mujhadeen, Weathermen, Black Panthers, French Resistance, Bolsheviks.....
....doesn't take too many people who are willing to fight to disrupt a government....
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Hell, just a few dozen Special Forces dudes would cause all manner of problems.
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3. Judging by the non-compliance with assault weapon bans in New York State, it won't just be a few thousand gun owners being rounded up. It will be more like 80 million. More likely a large number of states will not comply. I just think a whole lot of things would have to change quite a bit to allow something like this to happen. Maybe I am judging that based on being in a smaller town in Texas.
This, and more importantly, most of these small towns where gun ownership per capita is quite a bit higher than average also depend on the sheriff for SWAT type actions. That means his team will be handling everything in the county and cities, so you'd be looking at 10-12 SWAT officers to go door to door on 12,500 households totaling 33,000 people. Even if they split into three four man squads and did a search every 30 minutes, 24x7, it would take most of a year to get it done. During that time, I would bet there would be a lot of people setting up some very effective resistance. All of this assumes the (elected, and by people who like the 2nd Amendment) sheriff is even willing to help with a confiscation.
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We have a winner!
I go out of my way to correct LEOs who refer to non-LEOs as "civilians."
"So, what branch of hte armed forces are you and your police department a member of?"
I love doing that too. Pisses off the right people.
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This, and more importantly, most of these small towns where gun ownership per capita is quite a bit higher than average also depend on the sheriff for SWAT type actions. That means his team will be handling everything in the county and cities, so you'd be looking at 10-12 SWAT officers to go door to door on 12,500 households totaling 33,000 people. Even if they split into three four man squads and did a search every 30 minutes, 24x7, it would take most of a year to get it done. During that time, I would bet there would be a lot of people setting up some very effective resistance. All of this assumes the (elected, and by people who like the 2nd Amendment) sheriff is even willing to help with a confiscation.
And this also assumes that there are no injunctions issued by courts to cease and desist the searches, or a suspension of 4A to legally permit a house-by-house search, which would get a lot of libs fired up.
All of this is why I truly believe that confiscation searches on this scale won't happen. Too many problems across the board. And, if they tried, can't you imagine a lot of unregistered firearms would disappear before they got to the owner's home? Hell, guns aren't like drugs or explosives. Never heard of a gun sniffing dog. So they would have to rip out the walls, tear up the floors, etc to check everywhere possible. I would hope that level of searching would get everyone fired up, especially a bunch of lawyers and judges. Yep, gotta set asiee the Constitution and eliminate judicial oversight...
Absent a declaration of the First American Empire, not bloody likely.
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That. And the fact it is a job one "applies" for. You wanted to be in LE. So, either they want to be special, or have not thought it through that at some point in their career they might be shot at. The prevalent culture in LE to view themselves as some kind of "military", non civilian force is rampant.
The "my safety first" attitude doesn't make sense for the military either. Though it's been tried.
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We have a winner!
I go out of my way to correct LEOs who refer to non-LEOs as "civilians."
"So, what branch of hte armed forces are you and your police department a member of?"
The city of St Louis just recently created a non-LE review board to scrutinize any future shootings of unarmedblackteenagers. Guess what it's called? :facepalm:
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All of this is why I truly believe that confiscation searches on this scale won't happen. Too many problems across the board. And, if they tried, can't you imagine a lot of unregistered firearms would disappear before they got to the owner's home?
And how many of those gun owners would also decide it's worth losing that rusty, unreliable old Raven .25 to go plant it in some anti-gun activist's house and call in an anonymous tip?
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I would add a few things:
1. This discussion underscores that you need to support your gun rights organizations that are lobbying and fighting right now. It is much much cheaper and easier to spare some cash now versus after the fact. You might think about that the next time you get that junk mail.
Thank you for reminding me. In honor of our POTUS, B. Hussein 0bama, I re-upped my Illinois Carry supporting subscription.
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The "my safety first" attitude doesn't make sense for the military either. Though it's been tried.
Heh. The military's attitude is "Your safety first, whether you want it or not!". And it makes zero sense.
The city of St Louis just recently created a non-LE review board to scrutinize any future shootings of unarmedblackteenagers. Guess what it's called? Face Palm!
The Didndunufin Confirmation Board?
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The city of St Louis just recently created a non-LE review board to scrutinize any future shootings of unarmedblackteenagers. Guess what it's called? :facepalm:
Special Task Force Unicorn, because there ain't no such?
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http://kfor.com/2015/12/08/we-as-a-nation-are-under-attack-oklahoma-sheriff-asking-all-eligible-citizens-to-bear-arms/ (http://kfor.com/2015/12/08/we-as-a-nation-are-under-attack-oklahoma-sheriff-asking-all-eligible-citizens-to-bear-arms/)
A few bright spots in an otherwise bleak future for this country.
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You all are thinking about this through the wrong lens.
The government won't suspend rights and come knocking over guns - they'll do it in the name of stopping terrorists, and many of you will cheer them on until they arrive at your doors.
The Government already can and has thrown citizens in the gulag with no oversight. The only question for future governments is the scale of gulagging they want to do. Those powers were supported by some even here on APS, because at the time they were only used against scary Muslims.
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You all are thinking about this through the wrong lens.
The government won't suspend rights and come knocking over guns - they'll do it in the name of stopping terrorists, and many of you will cheer them on until they arrive at your doors.
Yeah, right .... they're gonna visit all 330 million of us. I'd like to see the math on that; how many federal agents X how many visits per day X how many houses per day = ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
The Government already can and has thrown citizens in the gulag with no oversight. The only question for future governments is the scale of gulagging they want to do. Those powers were supported by some even here on APS, because at the time they were only used against scary Muslims.
"Scary Muslims?''' You mean the ones chopping off the heads of Christians?? ---'cause that's pretty scary.
Or Tashfeen & Sayed, the San Bernardino shoot 'em up team .... because that is also scary. Not as scary as decapitation in a way but probably a lot more effective.
Or the "peaceful Muslims."
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Jailing millions of people is well within reach for the government. They do it every year.
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St Louis's non-LE review board is called the Civilian Oversight Board. I guess Citizen Oversight Board didn't make a good enough acronym.
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Jailing millions of people is well within reach for the government. They do it every year.
What we have here is a failure to communicate.
330 million is the entire population of America.
How does the govt. imprison everyone?
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What we have here is a failure to communicate.
330 million is the entire population of America.
How does the govt. imprison everyone?
With liberal math, it works. [popcorn]
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With liberal math, it works. [popcorn]
Lock up every gun owner and the country would starve to death or die of third world diseases in 6 months. :laugh:
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Lock up every gun owner and the country would starve to death or die of third world diseases in 6 months.
Faster, when there's nobody to drive the trucks or fix the cars.
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Instead of Starbucks, Chipotle, or the occasional statehouse, OC marchers ought to file past the houses of anti-gun pol's.
The unions/Left tried it on our Governor and a few other GOP lawmakers here in WI.
I think the tactic may need revisiting.
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Instead of Starbucks, Chipotle, or the occasional statehouse, OC marchers ought to file past the houses of anti-gun pol's.
Or given Chipotle's latest publicity, maybe we should just occupy their bathrooms and see how long the customers can hold it.
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Instead of Starbucks, Chipotle, or the occasional statehouse, OC marchers ought to file past the houses of anti-gun pol's.
The unions/Left tried it on our Governor and a few other GOP lawmakers here in WI.
I think the tactic may need revisiting.
If nothing else, the outcry from Big Media would be hilarious.
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330 million don't need to be imprisoned to make the point. Even 100,000 gun owners in the can is going to settle a whole lot of tempers out there. The reality is that if it couldn't be settled in politics any illegal means will do nothing more than shrink support for gun owners as a group.
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330 million don't need to be imprisoned to make the point. Even 100,000 gun owners in the can is going to settle a whole lot of tempers out there.
Still not holding my breath there, DeSelby.
Stop moving the goalposts all around.
The reality is that if it couldn't be settled in politics any illegal means will do nothing more than shrink support for gun owners as a group.
Are you talking about the government doing illegal things or us patriots?
If "the balloon goes up" I'm not giving much of a ______ about support.
There are ways of dealing with things like that ...... as our Founding Fathers discovered for themselves. ;)
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With this talk of incarcerating thousands of gun owners, let me throw this in the mix.
Right now, there is a hard push in the criminal justice system to reduce the number of inmates. More pushing for community based corrections for low level felonies, drug offenses, and non-violent offenders. The push is financial-related. Simply put, no one wants to spend this much to house offenders. And, a lot of this push is coming from the feds, who throw a lot of grant money at the state prison systems, and want to spend that money somewhere else.
Right now, there are 197,706 people in prison for federal offenses in the US (per the federal Bureau of Prisons web cite). 161,516 are in federal prison. The rest are farmed out to other prisons, mostly state prisons.
Now I've read articles that say approximately 35-40% of Americans admit to owning a firearm. That puts the number at around 110,000,000 gun owners in the US. Let's say that of those 110 million gun owners, only .1% are committed enough to openly defy the law, and they get arrested, charged, and put in prison as a lesson to the rest of us. That's 110,000 bodies that would need a spot in a federal prison. It would almost double the federal prison population.
Where are the going to house these people? Who is going to man the prisons? Who is going to pay for food, clothing, medical care, etc.? Or, is this what the FEMA camps will be used for?
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The left thinks gun confiscation is like watching a movie- Cowboys vs Indians. Cops vs Robbers.
What they have almost uniformly failed to grasp, is that they won't be watching the movie, they will be the actors.
This would not be one of the great leftist moves they love so much, which is to impose edicts on others, who have to bear the costs- If they try this, the costs will be born by them personally.
Most likely, they will start a civil war that will burn this country to the ground, with multiple factions- it will make Syria look like a clearly defined problem.
Some of the communists, and some of the Muslims, want this- they have expressed it in their writings - only after the US is destroyed will they be able to achieve their goals.
Western civilization stands in the balance. It is ironic the cultures that seek to destroy the greatest achievement of humankind, also profit so greatly from it. The twit-face version is "cultural appropriation"- OK, morons, you can have your halloween costumes back, take the turban and the sombrero, I want my penicillin, cell phone and automobile, surgery ward, and all the other 50 million inventions by Western White Males back. The Western White Male has contributed more to human advancement than the rest of the world put together, by about 20 orders of magnitude.
Subtract the accomplishments of "white privilege" and the idiots railing against it would be living in a mud hut rubbing sticks together to light a fire to cook their gruel in a clay pot.
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Subtract the accomplishments of "white privilege" and the idiots railing against it would be living in a mud hut rubbing sticks together to light a fire to cook their gruel in a clay pot.
You underestimate them, as they also will still have the stream they use for both drinking water and a toilet to fall back on. Or in.
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Well there are white males who are on the other side too- you know the ones that dress up like lumberjacks, truck drivers, and mechanics, but ironically have neither the skills nor physical strength to work in any of those professions.
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Well there are white males who are on the other side too- you know the ones that dress up like lumberjacks, truck drivers, and mechanics, but ironically have neither the skills nor physical strength to work in any of those professions.
If skin color was going to save us we wouldn't need saving. Whites are still a majority in the USA.
Dedication to the principles civil society is based upon is the test. All allies are welcome.
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If skin color was going to save us we wouldn't need saving. Whites are still a majority in the USA.
Dedication to the principles civil society is based upon is the test. All allies are welcome.
Clarification- the white males I was talking about are generally on the side of destruction of western civilization.
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Clarification- the white males I was talking about are generally on the side of destruction of western civilization.
I know, I was agreeing with you and pointing out we need every ally we can get regardless of race.
I'll take a secular Iranian libertarian over a SJW white guy any day. Insert any race or nationality and philosophy that is pro freedom/liberty and I will take them over the feminized white progressive males our country has raised.
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I know, I was agreeing with you and pointing out we need every ally we can get regardless of race.
I'll take a secular Iranian libertarian over a SJW white guy any day. Insert any race or nationality and philosophy that is pro freedom/liberty and I will take them over the feminized white progressive males our country has raised.
You betcha!