Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Ben on January 03, 2016, 10:27:58 AM
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Protesters have taken over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon to protest the (re)incarceration of a rancher and his son.
Probably not enough info yet to fully comment, but based on the story, a few thoughts:
1) I've driven through that part of Oregon, including exploring back roads. The idea that someone would start fires to "hide poaching" seems very implausible to me. It is a big empty. You could hide the Burning Man there. Perhaps the "hide poaching" thing is misreporting. The ranchers claim they were burning invasive species, which is more plausible, and also more plausible for something the govt would stick its nose in, regarding what people can do on their own property. It could also be that their fires damaged property, but that's not evident.
2) The part about them both already serving a sentence, being set free, but now having to go back to prison because the govt decided they didn't serve enough time after the fact? It's probably legal, but I can't fathom how.
3) The father and son are (apparently) willingly going back to prison, so maybe there's more to the story.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/01/03/armed-protestors-occupying-national-wildlife-refuge-building-vow-long-stay.html?intcmp=hpbt1
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2) The part about them both already serving a sentence, being set free, but now having to go back to prison because the govt decided they didn't serve enough time after the fact? It's probably legal, but I can't fathom how.
Apparently their original sentence didn't meet the 5 year requirement:
http://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/eastern-oregon-ranchers-convicted-arson-resentenced-five-years-prison (http://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/eastern-oregon-ranchers-convicted-arson-resentenced-five-years-prison)
More info:
http://sblog.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Hammond-v-United-States-13-1512-Reply-to-Brief-in-Opposition.pdf (http://sblog.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Hammond-v-United-States-13-1512-Reply-to-Brief-in-Opposition.pdf)
I don't see this ending well.
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One of their kin testified that grandpas told him to lite it up to hide the poaching. Was a fairly small fire iirc
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Apparently their original sentence didn't meet the 5 year requirement:
I had seen that. I'm just wondering about the legality of re-incarcerating them. Seems like a goof in the legal system. Had they been handed five year sentences to begin with, probably wouldn't be an issue.
Also I still can't believe the "hide the poaching" thing, whether it comes from the accused or the gov. How does that hide poaching in BFE? The gov also, in natural resource cases, generally likes to file the criminal complaint, but then finagle civil penalties instead to fund the enforcement agencies. I didn't see that here.
Regardless, there has to be more going on given that they are willingly going back to the pokey. Bundy being there is likely mostly for his own agenda.
I do find it funny that the BLM crowd (funny, since this is also on BLM land) is crying about the National Guard not being called out, like it was in Ferguson. No matter what I might think about the militia crowd there, I'm betting they'll not be looting or trashing the place. The BLM crowd seems to have no concept regarding the remoteness of the location. There were probably more protesters at Rahm Emanuel's house last week, and no National Guard there.
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Regardless, there has to be more going on given that they are willingly going back to the pokey. Bundy being there is likely mostly for his own agenda.
From what I'm reading, the Hammonds have rejected Bundy and the protesters. At that point it ceased being about the Hammonds and became just another Bundy ego trip.
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Ammon wants to be the angry white version of Jesse Jackson
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http://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/eastern-oregon-ranchers-convicted-arson-resentenced-five-years-prison
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Here is the narrative of the pro-rancher side. (http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/)
Anyone who takes the Feds side in this has to realize that there is another side and is expressed here.
There is a lot of justified anger out there for the Feds and this case is just one of many instances of what is driving that anger.
Not to mention that the Feds routinely get away with instances of destruction that dwarf whatever the damage is that these ranchers allegedly did.
I'm of the view that there has been a long-term effort to drive people off the land and reserve it all under Federal auspices. And that this is part of that strategy, thus the injustice shown here isn't a local office or personnel that are out of control, they are doing what they are told to do. And so it doesn't matter what destruction the Feds have wrought since to their mind the land belongs to them and they can do what they want with it and the rest of us have no say in the matter.
One of their kin testified that grandpas told him to lite it up to hide the poaching. Was a fairly small fire iirc
From section O of the linked article:
(o) Federal attorneys, Frank Papagni, hunted down a witness that was not mentally capable to be a credible witness. Dusty Hammond (grandson and nephew) testified that Steven told him to start a fire. He was 13 at the time and 24 when he testified (11 years later). At 24 Dusty had been suffering with mental problems for many years. He had estranged his family including his mother. Judge Hogan noted that Dusty’s memories as a 13-year-old boy were not clear or credible. He allowed the prosecution to continually use Dusty’s testimony anyway. When speaking to the Hammonds about this testimony, they understood that Dusty was manipulated and expressed nothing but love for their troubled grandson.
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From what I'm reading, the Hammonds have rejected Bundy and the protesters. At that point it ceased being about the Hammonds and became just another Bundy ego trip.
Sure looks like more than just a few Bundy fans.
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Wouldn't increasing their sentences after-the-fact (whether the govt screwed up the minimum or not) be "double jeopardy"?
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Wouldn't increasing their sentences after-the-fact (whether the govt screwed up the minimum or not) be "double jeopardy"?
From what I understand, the prosecution appealed the sentence and it was changed. This happens. Usually when you hear about it, it's the defense appealing a sentence and having it reduced.
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Wouldn't increasing their sentences after-the-fact (whether the govt screwed up the minimum or not) be "double jeopardy"?
Sucky gray area I think.
Technically no, because the sentence for the original crime is just being extended to what the minimum sentence should have been. They aren't being tried convicted and sentenced all over again for the same crime.
On the not so technical side, it stink to high *expletive deleted*ing heaven.
Sent from my iPhone. Freaking autocorrect.
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Was a fairly small fire iirc
The fire covered 139 acres of public land. I know that's probably small by western standards but i'd consider it significant.
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The fire covered 139 acres of public land. I know that's probably small by western standards but i'd consider it significant.
LEASED land. It was a controlled burn to kill off invasive weeds according to one side.
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LEASED land. It was a controlled burn to kill off invasive weeds according to one side.
At which point, who cares? Controlled burn on leased land. No wildfire, end of story. *expletive deleted*ck you very much to the Feds.
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The fire covered 139 acres of public land. I know that's probably small by western standards but i'd consider it significant.
There have been bigger fires on public land in CA caused from everything from a guy welding a gate to kids letting their pot fueled campfire party get out of control. None of them were labeled arson and IIRC, none of them went to prison. I'm pretty sure several of the fires that were actual arson cases ended in probation or short jail stints.
The backfire should not be labeled arson, and I still call bull on the "fire to hide poaching". No one who lives in an area like that would ever think to start a fire when they could just bury the evidence, or freakin' cover it up. The chances of finding poaching evidence in that large and desolate area have to be puny. Whichever side that story comes from, there's something else going on with that fire.
Plus I saw the feds got $400K in damages, so that much dough plus 5 years jail time, that's more than "punishment fitting the crime". They definitely want that land.
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One of their kin testified that grandpas told him to lite it up to hide the poaching. Was a fairly small fire iirc
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That kin, from what I read, was a now 24-ish year old with significant mental health problems and lengthy estrangement from the family. Who was also only 13-ish at the time of the fire in question.
LEASED land. It was a controlled burn to kill off invasive weeds according to one side.
What I read was that it was done in order to prevent a major wildfire from destroying winter feed crops for their cattle. And that the burn worked even better than intended as it not only saved their feed crop but was key to stopping the fire overall. And whatever the total acreage of the back burn, it apparently consumed a whopping 1 acre of public (and leased for grazing) grass land. We're not talking about destroying thousands of acres of old growth timber here. I bet 6 months later you would be hard pressed to tell there'd ever even been a fire there.
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The fact that the Hammonds specifically requested for the circus of idiots to not come gives me a lot more favorable opinion of them and their case...
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The backfire should not be labeled arson, and I still call bull on the "fire to hide poaching". No one who lives in an area like that would ever think to start a fire when they could just bury the evidence, or freakin' cover it up. The chances of finding poaching evidence in that large and desolate area have to be puny. Whichever side that story comes from, there's something else going on with that fire.
The last fire the feds started up here was something like 83,000 acres burned, so a 'few hundred' isn't much.
Part of the problem is that apparently there's 3 fires and questions about whether they actually got the necessary permission/permits. Another thing I thought of - we know 3 fires supposedly got out of control, but out of how many? 3/3 is a bad ratio, but this was over the course of years. Was it really 3/100?
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[tinfoil]
Wasn't there some very early support for the protesters from the family that very suddenly was reversed? Like maybe in response to a credible threat from the government....
[tinfoil]
The group "occupying" the visitor center and outhouses at the wildlife reserve aren't playing it smart. Too concentrated a location. Too easy for a tragically convenient natural gas/propane explosion in the middle of the night.
Two basic options for the feds- go full Waco/Ruby Ridge on them and really cause a stink or just ignore them and they'll eventually just go home when they figure out American Revolution II isn't happening this week.
I don't have a lot of faith in the Feds doing the smart thing.
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Two basic options for the feds- go full Waco/Ruby Ridge on them and really cause a stink or just ignore them and they'll eventually just go home when they figure out American Revolution II isn't happening this week.
I don't have a lot of faith in the Feds doing the smart thing.
Setting aside the arguments as to why they're in there, the fact remains that an armed group has taken over a federal building. That's not something you get to just walk away from. If they're lucky they're all going to prison.
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I'm not so sure of that Bryan.
Two years ago I would have said that an armed group stopping Federal Law Enforcement from asset forfeiture wasn't something you walked away from. I also would have said that leading a group to shut down a major airport, even for a short time, wasn't something you walked away from.
And yet, clearly it can be for folks on both sides of the political spectrum.
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I kind of think the "taking over" aspect is getting blown way out. Was the building occupied or even if use or was it a visitor center that was shuttered for the season?
We see the SJW crowd causing much more trouble with shutting down federal highways, disrupting airports, rioting and such, how many of them go to prison.
Everybody has fallen in line with the narrative being fed by the mainstream media and the goverment. "Just a bunch of right wing radicals" .
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I kind of think the "taking over" aspect is getting blown way out. Was the building occupied or even if use or was it a visitor center that was shuttered for the season?
We see the SJW crowd causing much more trouble with shutting down federal highways, disrupting airports, rioting and such, how many of them go to prison.
Everybody has fallen in line with the narrative being fed by the mainstream media and the goverment. "Just a bunch of right wing radicals" .
According to one FB "friend" they are "white terrorists".
The majority of the population will not be outraged if the feds do go Ruby ridge on these guys or throw them all in jail. They are not idiot protestors on the " correct" side of the political spectrum.
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Technically no, because the sentence for the original crime is just being extended to what the minimum sentence should have been. They aren't being tried convicted and sentenced all over again for the same crime.
I thought the Obama administration opposed mandatory minimum sentences....
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The part about them both already serving a sentence, being set free, but now having to go back to prison because the govt decided they didn't serve enough time . . .
IANAL, but this sounds very fishy to me . . .
Dusty Hammond (grandson and nephew) testified that Steven told him to start a fire. He was 13 at the time and 24 when he testified (11 years later).
So this whole legal brouhaha took place more than a decade after the fact, and the case was based almost entirely on the testimony of a VERY shaky witness? Again, something sounds VERY fishy.
I'm not going to come down on anybody's side - but this entire matter sounds very fishy (OK, I know I said that already) and would seem to merit a thorough investigation by someone like John Stossel or some other investigative news reporter.
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Everybody has fallen in line with the narrative being fed by the mainstream media and the goverment. "Just a bunch of right wing radicals" .
Well, they upset the schedule of a coyote and two pheasants. Way worse than shutting down a freeway or burning down businesses, or beating to death a truck driver over a jury verdict. They need to die.
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According to one FB "friend" they are "white terrorists".
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs6.postimg.org%2Fgdm69v4rx%2Fimage.jpg&hash=9c1897fc1bdce4f37107ab878880e3686dd45172) (http://postimg.org/image/gdm69v4rx/)
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Also, interesting quote from the local sheriff (surprising, actually, considering it's rural Oregon):
"These men came to Harney County claiming to be part of militia groups supporting local ranchers, when in reality these men had alternative motives to attempt to overthrow the county and federal government in hopes to spark a movement across the United States," Ward said in a statement.
"Overthrow the government" isn't the kind of rhetoric I would expect from LE that says they want to calm the situation down. I wouldn't be surprised if he's getting chewed out by the FBI for it.
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I can't find a single moral reason to favor anything the feds have done on this one.
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs6.postimg.org%2Fgdm69v4rx%2Fimage.jpg&hash=9c1897fc1bdce4f37107ab878880e3686dd45172) (http://postimg.org/image/gdm69v4rx/)
Paging Sam Francis...
Anarcho-tyranny
Francis argued that the problems of the managerial state extend to issues of crime and justice. In 1992, he introduced the word "anarcho-tyranny" into the paleocon vocabulary.[38] He once defined it this way: "we refuse to control real criminals (that's the anarchy) so we control the innocent (that's the tyranny)."[39]
In one of his last essays, he explained the concept:
What we have in this country today, then, is both anarchy (the failure of the state to enforce the laws) and, at the same time, tyranny – the enforcement of laws by the state for oppressive purposes; the criminalization of the law-abiding and innocent through exorbitant taxation, bureaucratic regulation, the invasion of privacy, and the engineering of social institutions, such as the family and local schools; the imposition of thought control through "sensitivity training" and multiculturalist curricula, "hate crime" laws, gun-control laws that punish or disarm otherwise law-abiding citizens but have no impact on violent criminals who get guns illegally, and a vast labyrinth of other measures. In a word, anarcho-tyranny.
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Has being white been officially classified an act of terrorism yet?
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For those interested in the Hammond case, Popehat has weighed in on it. As usual he supplies a nonpartisan, factual article.
https://popehat.com/2016/01/04/what-happened-in-the-hammond-sentencing-in-oregon-a-lawsplainer/
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For those interested in the Hammond case, Popehat has weighed in on it. As usual he supplies a nonpartisan, factual article.
https://popehat.com/2016/01/04/what-happened-in-the-hammond-sentencing-in-oregon-a-lawsplainer/
Thanks for this. Answered my questions about what happened.
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Well, they are still there and have now issued a wish list of supplies. Figured somebody who was there "for the duration" would have maybe brought more stuff to start. Kinda early to be low on supplies.
Plus - BOTH Miracle Whip AND mayo? This ain't a restaurant. Plus, deodorant? What, ya got a date? Plus, how are they running out of underwear already?
http://twitchy.com/2016/01/09/got-mayo-militia-members-in-oregon-issue-wish-list-of-supplies/
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Plus - BOTH Miracle Whip AND mayo?
That's how you know the protesters are white.
(Yeah, that's racist. I don't care.)
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That's how you know the protesters are white.
(Yeah, that's racist. I don't care.)
The French vanilla creamer also indicates they're a little light in the loafers.
And let's not even get into the whole need for multiple brands of cigarettes. Is it some kind of hipster militia?
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well, clearly they had prepared some for their little adventure, because the only thing missing from that list is toilet paper.
I also notice that they didn't prepare for the fact that occupations of such nature are more boring than not. "gaming supplies" indeed. ;/
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Tampons and pads, but no condoms. Hmm.
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Tampons and pads, but no condoms. Hmm.
Then I think we need to send them a gambling kit for gaming supplies. :)
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I should say as a caveat, that my making fun of these guys in no way reflects on my concern for the serious underlying issue that caused them to show up there. Government overreach and abuse of power are serious issues.
That said, this militia group is at this point likely not helping. Perhaps their heart is in the right place, but if you're going to do something like this, you need to plan it through, and that requires planning for PR and public perception of everything you do. Right now, they're beginning to look like the stereotypical liberal definition of "dumbass white guys running around in the woods playing army". You can't help but laugh at camoed out armed tough guys who've taken and occupied an objective, post watches, talk about killing or being killed for the cause, but hey, we really need that French vanilla creamer. :laugh:
Without knowing all facts, my perception right now is that the government is actually doing something smart (regarding how they handle their side of this) by just letting the group sit there. That visitor center isn't scheduled to open back up until what, May? It's in the middle of nowhere, so really no one is affected right now. If I were one of the govt responders, I'd probably be saying, "Just leave them there and ignore them until they run out of supplies and get sick of camping out".
The fact that the group already released this list of needed supplies tells me they probably thought they'd get a lot more traction in the first days, that there would be some resolution, and that they really didn't plan on spending "possibly years" there. I think most of them figured it would all be wrapped up by now, one way or the other. By ignoring them, the govt takes away all their leverage. At some point, I assume some of these guys have to go back to their jobs, unless they're independently wealthy or unemployed or something.
Possibly BLM and OWS protesters were smarter by occupying and blocking areas that caused aggravation, which caused the authorities to address their demands. Not that I at all agree with the methods those groups used.
A positive suggestion, just so it doesn't look like I'm simply ragging on them and their cause, would be for them to go back to what they did before they occupied the building: Peaceful marches through town, or showing up at the visitor center when it opens with not guns, but signs and literature. Or better yet, do it in front of a regional BLM HQ, or the DOI building in DC where you get a lot more exposure.
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Yeah, I fully support the basic grievance but good grief Gerty what a bunch of meatheads.
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Yeah, I fully support the basic grievance but good grief Gerty what a bunch of meatheads.
This, many times this
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It's one thing to tell your supporters that they can bring food and supplies to such-and-such location, and even cite specific items you need. It's another thing to ask for specific condiments and brands. Go get an EBT card, already. ;/
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Apparently they have been receiving some donations:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_sXnZxiJjGw
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Yeah, I fully support the basic grievance but good grief Gerty what a bunch of meatheads.
Same. Not shocking that the fed govt is overreaching, that's what they do. Plenty of valid grievances and they have a right to protest, associate and petition for redress. But if they were wearing suits or even casual wear, they'd be making a hundred times their current impact. Care to imagine if they brought a lawn mower, some rakes and some clippers?
I usually call it "Hey, YOU, get off my side, please! You'd be much more helpful to X by joining the opposition!"
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http://thefreethoughtproject.com/oregon-fire-marshall-resigns-exposing-undercover-fbi-agents-posing-militia/ (http://thefreethoughtproject.com/oregon-fire-marshall-resigns-exposing-undercover-fbi-agents-posing-militia/)
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But if they were wearing suits or even casual wear, they'd be making a hundred times their current impact.
This goes for pretty much any political action. The times I've gone after an issue with the local city council, I found supporters who would at least wear nice jeans and a dress shirt, if not suits, to the meetings, and the difference in how they were treated and responded to compared to the folks that show up in business casual is very noticeable, to say nothing of the ones who show up in shorts and t shirts.
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This goes for pretty much any political action. The times I've gone after an issue with the local city council, I found supporters who would at least wear nice jeans and a dress shirt, if not suits, to the meetings, and the difference in how they were treated and responded to compared to the folks that show up in business casual is very noticeable, to say nothing of the ones who show up in shorts and t shirts.
??? So the hierarchy is shorts/t-shirts, khakis/dress shirt, jeans/dress shirt, suit?
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http://thefreethoughtproject.com/oregon-fire-marshall-resigns-exposing-undercover-fbi-agents-posing-militia/ (http://thefreethoughtproject.com/oregon-fire-marshall-resigns-exposing-undercover-fbi-agents-posing-militia/)
He's already walked back that onr
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He's already walked back that onr
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Of course he has. How long before he disappears? [tinfoil]
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Another knucklehead move by the group. They apparently appropriated two of the gov vehicles left at the refuge and used them to run errands. A member of the group has now been arrested for auto theft while out buying groceries.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/01/16/police-say-man-arrested-in-us-vehicle-stolen-from-oregon-refuge.html?intcmp=hplnws
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Another knucklehead move by the group. They apparently appropriated two of the gov vehicles left at the refuge and used them to run errands. A member of the group has now been arrested for auto theft while out buying groceries.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/01/16/police-say-man-arrested-in-us-vehicle-stolen-from-oregon-refuge.html?intcmp=hplnws
Ayep. Them there is some real scary terrorists. ;/
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[tinfoil]
One can only hope that this whole fiasco gets exposed as a false flag operation intended to discredit anyone in opposition to BLM overreach.
:facepalm:
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Another knucklehead move by the group. They apparently appropriated two of the gov vehicles left at the refuge and used them to run errands. A member of the group has now been arrested for auto theft while out buying groceries.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/01/16/police-say-man-arrested-in-us-vehicle-stolen-from-oregon-refuge.html?intcmp=hplnws
Good. Stupid should come with a price.
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So the hierarchy is shorts/t-shirts, khakis/dress shirt, jeans/dress shirt, suit?
Pretty much the same as applying for a job or any other process that involves persuasion; remember the modes of persuasion, and appearance contributes to all three in many cases.
Plus many people know you can find a suit at Goodwill for less than the cost of a single concert t-shirt at the concert.
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Unfortunately there's now a chance this might turn Waco. I saw this morning that the OR governor is demanding the feds step up their game and boot the group. She's mad that she's spent a half million on state LEO travel to the area.
Not sure why she needs to keep a small army down there. While the group is turning out to be a knucklehead brigade, they've shown themselves to be zero threat to citizens down there. They've only talked of fighting the government. Certainly the local sheriff likely has a small staff, but I'm sure there's a few feds hanging out and the state shouldn't need more than a few at this point as well.
If things look like they're going to get out of control, she can easily send state police down there. Otherwise, if she insists on quickly escalating things, she'll be the one creating a potentially big problem. Also apparently there are Portland based hippies protesting the protesters and demanding they leave.
As I've said above, I think the feds are doing the right thing waiting them out in their isolated area. If the state and the hippies start getting rowdy and antagonizing, it's going to lead to a showdown.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/01/21/oregon-governor-calls-on-feds-to-move-against-armed-wildlife-refuge-protesters.html?intcmp=hplnws
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Again, while I fully support opposition to the government overreach and abuses these guys are "protesting" they are really coming across as a bunch of morons. I don't know if that's because of highly filtered "news" or because these guys are a bunch of morons.
Shut off all services to the facility. Have a few forest service fire fighting planes fly over and drop water on the site.
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Same. Not shocking that the fed govt is overreaching, that's what they do. Plenty of valid grievances and they have a right to protest, associate and petition for redress. But if they were wearing suits or even casual wear, they'd be making a hundred times their current impact. Care to imagine if they brought a lawn mower, some rakes and some clippers?
I usually call it "Hey, YOU, get off my side, please! You'd be much more helpful to X by joining the opposition!"
Yep, they are doing the wrong thing(s) for the right reasons...
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Yep, they are doing the wrong thing(s) for the right reasons...
I don't think even their right reasons are right.
They're a bunch of stolen valor types - most of them are lying about their military service.
They're also eating a bunch of disdain from online. They've been mailed dildos and even a 55 gallon drum of 'personal lubricant'.
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I don't think even their right reasons are right.
They're a bunch of stolen valor types - most of them are lying about their military service.
I have to stop you there. Listened to the Forward Observer podcast this past week, and the guy they're trying to roast for stolen valor has tried to correct RT ( who called him a former Marine in their interview), with no success. Once it hit the internet the truth no longer mattered. Stolen Valor accusations are as bad as getting called a kiddie diddler anymore. Just the accusation is enough. Ask any Army type dumb enough to go for lunch in utilities.
I consider FO to be a credible source.
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They're also eating a bunch of disdain from online. They've been mailed dildos and even a 55 gallon drum of 'personal lubricant'.
What does that prove? Sex toys are the new vagina costume of the anti-gun nuts. They were employed when one of the states (TX maybe?) approved campus carry.
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I have to stop you there. Listened to the Forward Observer podcast this past week, and the guy they're trying to roast for stolen valor has tried to correct RT ( who called him a former Marine in their interview), with no success. Once it hit the internet the truth no longer mattered. Stolen Valor accusations are as bad as getting called a kiddie diddler anymore. Just the accusation is enough. Ask any Army type dumb enough to go for lunch in utilities.
I consider FO to be a credible source.
Maybe
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/01/08/busted-oregon-militia-thugs-caught-falsely-posing-as-marine-veterans/
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Maybe
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/01/08/busted-oregon-militia-thugs-caught-falsely-posing-as-marine-veterans/
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Thanks for that, hadn't seen there were two of them. The Cavalier guy is obviously full of *expletive deleted*it.
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It's the curse of all,organizations. How to police the ranks and ditch the flakes. Especially when a group is small it's hard to turn away manpower but inevitably your worst guy becomes your public/media image.
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It's the curse of all,organizations. How to police the ranks and ditch the flakes. Especially when a group is small it's hard to turn away manpower but inevitably your worst guy becomes your public/media image.
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I really can't fault the opposition for using the obviously effective counter. Stolen valor is an excellent way to discredit the whole thing. I'm just surprised people still try it. Not hard to prove them wrong. Half the time it's just picking apart their bullshit story.
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I'm just surprised people still try it. Not hard to prove them wrong. Half the time it's just picking apart their bullshit story.
I just assume they're either too stupid or too shameless to care. Lots of people out there telling easily debunked lies about a lot of things.
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Ammon Bundy has been arrested during a traffic stop. Apparently shots were fired.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/26/us/oregon-wildlife-refuge-siege-arrests/index.html
This purports to be a live steaming video about the event. I'm making no claims about its veracity:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VVWykMKiOjU
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Traffic enforcement by feds. Now the knucklehead ball is heading back into the gov's court.
Edit: Also interesting, I just read a short Fox News article that said Bundy et.al. were heading to John Day, OR for a meeting about the protest. The Sheriff of that county is a SUPER constitutionalist and not a fan of the federal government. I got my OR non-resident CCW through him. I'm thinking it wasn't a coincidence that town was chosen for the meeting. Also, given that's where they were heading, then why pull them over on a bogus traffic stop? Having the meeting might have lead towards some progress to a peaceful resolution.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/01/26/oregon-standoff-leader-ammon-bundy-arrested.html?intcmp=hpbt4
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http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/26/us/oregon-wildlife-refuge-siege-arrests/
One person killed, a couple injured.
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Doesn't one of those arrested Shawna cox have a history of around
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I'm afraid I have to put my tinfoil on. The incident is starting to sound Waco-like.
Still no explanation of the bogus traffic stop at night. Why not arrest them in broad daylight, or as they were entering or exiting the meeting in John Day? Or while out buying groceries, which worked in the past? Or if they were really only after the one person LE killed, why didn't they wait for an opportunity to arrest him with fewer other people to deal with? Hwy 395 between Burns and John Day was an interesting choice for a traffic stop.
While I still think the group was pulling bonehead moves, this time I think LE did so, with lethal results. Possibly because of pressure from the Governor and others. They still would have had several months for other options to present themselves before the Refuge is scheduled to open back up to the public.
Also, it appears the group said it was a "hands up, don't shoot" incident, but Al Sharpton hasn't rode in yet demanding a White House investigation.
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Yep, it appears as if the Fed's have tried to out stupid the knuckleheads. Again all they had to do was play the long game, arrest them in a ones and two as they left the "compound" to go for runs into town, etc.
Now the call has gone out for re-enforcements to come join the stand-off.
This is not going to end well....
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This is not going to end well....
QFT
If rumblings on the Book Of Faces are accurate, there are groups of patriotic citizenry en route to, um..., "assist" in certain efforts. I see this as getting a lot worse, and very soon.
Brad
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QFT
If rumblings on the Book Of Faces are accurate, there are groups of patriotic citizenry en route to, um..., "assist" in certain efforts. I see this as getting a lot worse, and very soon.
Brad
I wouldn't bet on that. A few lone wolves may be headed that direction, but AFAIK there is no widespread movement happening.
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Should we assume, given that this occurred on one of the most isolated roads in the state, that LE had dash cams running and all officers had bodycams running, for their own protection? The footage would go a long way towards clearing things up.
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Should we assume, given that this occurred on one of the most isolated roads in the state, that LE had dash cams running and all officers had bodycams running, for their own protection? The footage would go a long way towards clearing things up.
one would assume.
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You know what happens when you assume....
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I'd bet my life savings that the Feds have moles planted in that group, and likely agents provocateurs as well.
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I'd bet my life savings that the Feds have moles planted in that group, and likely agents provocateurs as well.
X2. I'd there is video, we will most likely never see it. That sheriff there is an idiot. He was on a fox a while ago getting all choked up and showing severe butthurt signs stressing that " we don't get all armed up and rebel in this country. We work with the system to solve issues".
What an f tard.
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QFT
If rumblings on the Book Of Faces are accurate, there are groups of patriotic citizenry en route to, um..., "assist" in certain efforts. I see this as getting a lot worse, and very soon.
Brad
Barry needed a little extra push to get some traction on gun control.
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Interesting info on why they were going to John Day. Sheriff Palmer is who I mentioned in my post above.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/post_2.html
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Yep, it appears as if the Fed's have tried to out stupid the knuckleheads. Again all they had to do was play the long game, arrest them in a ones and two as they left the "compound" to go for runs into town, etc.
Now the call has gone out for re-enforcements to come join the stand-off.
This is not going to end well....
Just like a skunk eating bees from a bee hive.
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I was thinking about this today, so if the BLM sold their land for $100 an acre, 100,000 acres will got for 10 million dollars. Typical BLM land can support 1 cow per 100+ or so acres. So you'll have to spend $10 millions for land that can only support maybe 1000 head of cattle. I really don't see how you could have a return on investment or a bank that would loan the money.
Currently AUMs are $1.69, so that means grazing rent is about $20 per cow w/calf annually.
Also if BLM and USFS liquidated land, it wouldn't be people like you and me buying it, it would be the Ted Turners of the world and all access would be shut off to everyone.
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Well, it appears to be over. Bundy told the remaining people to go home. Stated through his attorney. He and the others from the traffic stop are being held without bail.
Were any BLM protesters arrested and held without bail? Looters? Arsonists? Just curious.
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Well, it appears to be over. Bundy told the remaining people to go home. Stated through his attorney.
I wonder if the Feds will allow them to go home. I'm guessing "no."
He and the others from the traffic stop are being held without bail.
Some were arrested separately from the fatal "traffic stop." Are they also being held without bail?
Were any BLM protesters arrested and held without bail? Looters? Arsonists? Just curious.
#WhiteRanchersLivesDontMatter
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Don't have a link handy but the guy that said the deceased "charged" the cops was supposedly released. My guess is he was a Hoover undercover.
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http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/eyewitnesses-knock-down-conspiracy-theories-about-lavoy-finicum-dying-with-his-hands-up/
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http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/eyewitnesses-knock-down-conspiracy-theories-about-lavoy-finicum-dying-with-his-hands-up/
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The person in the cited story appears to be givng an anecdotal account. Given all the stories flying around I'd like to see a story from a direct witness. Better yet, unedited video from the cops' car and body cams.
Brad
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The person in the cited story appears to be givng an anecdotal account. Given all the stories flying around I'd like to see a story from a direct witness. Better yet, unedited video from the cops' car and body cams.
Brad
I won't believe a thing the Feds have to say on this until they release video.
If it was suicide by cop, lets see it and put all the rumors to bed for good.
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I won't believe a thing the Feds have to say on this until they release video.
If it was suicide by cop, lets see it and put all the rumors to bed for good.
Yup. I realize it's a little tinfoily, but given the way these arrests were made, I would want to see full disclosure from LE. They still haven't addressed the bogus traffic stop, which we know was bogus, because if they were just pulled over for a traffic violation while driving, then why were there roadblocks in place along their route ahead? LE didn't implement the full roadblocks until after the arrests.
Also I saw a report on Fox News where they found OMG NVGs at the site. Guess we'll have an "NVG loophole" next. I'm still not going back on my previous comments that these guys were knuckleheads, but knuckleheads have rights too. They certainly have at least the same rights as BLM protesters, so should be accorded the same punishments under the law, or BLM protesters should have been accorded the same punishments as these guys (or more, considering BLM was violent and destructive). The White House needs to launch the same investigations into "LE wrongdoing" that they did for BLM protests. Or not.
Regardless, again, all they have to do is release the raw video and this issue will be resolved one way or the other right quick.
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Better yet, unedited video from the cops' car and body cams.
This. If he really "charged" them, then video of that would settle it all right away. Sounds to me more like maybe he was in a hurry to get to the meeting and jogged over to see what was going on when they were stopped.
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The person in the cited story appears to be givng an anecdotal account. Given all the stories flying around I'd like to see a story from a direct witness. Better yet, unedited video from the cops' car and body cams.
Brad
The guy in video was in the same vehicle
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(https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/12645179_1232883926722583_7691503194786297631_n.jpg?oh=37207a1aabde8d55041a7b1e8191504b&oe=5730301F)
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For those waiting for the FBI to release the video of the shooting involving the militia members....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAGxDWKrjPQ
Here's the nearly 27 minute unedited video of the traffic stop involved.... According to the FBI (and you can see it in the video) he twice reached his right hand towards the left side of his jacket (even though he did exit with his hands up). The second time, he was shot by an Oregon State Police trooper.... They found a loaded 9mm handgun inside his jacket on the left hand side.
The vehicle was stopped for about 4 minutes before taking off again, trying to go around a roadblock (and nearly striking an FBI agent).... The relevant portion starts at about the 8 minute mark....
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Well, watching that video loses them some sympathy from me. Taking off from the stop, then trying a high speed evasion of the roadblock, then him getting out of the vehicle the way he did, and making the moves he did, not smart. Not smart at all.
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I have to say, I completely understand the frustration over how BLM Land is managed, etc.... But this was not the way to get it addressed.... Just like the Occupy idiots, the message gets lost.
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For those waiting for the FBI to release the video of the shooting involving the militia members....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAGxDWKrjPQ
Here's the nearly 27 minute unedited video of the traffic stop involved.... According to the FBI (and you can see it in the video) he twice reached his right hand towards the left side of his jacket (even though he did exit with his hands up). The second time, he was shot by an Oregon State Police trooper.... They found a loaded 9mm handgun inside his jacket on the left hand side.
The vehicle was stopped for about 4 minutes before taking off again, trying to go around a roadblock (and nearly striking an FBI agent).... The relevant portion starts at about the 8 minute mark....
He DinduNuffin! He wuz a good boy! Hands up don't shoot!
Oh wait...
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He DinduNuffin! He wuz a good boy! Hands up don't shoot!
Oh wait...
lolz
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I have to add, kudos to the FBI for releasing unedited video that quickly. I wish all LE would do that for more incidents.
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I have to add, kudos to the FBI for releasing unedited video that quickly. I wish all LE would do that for more incidents.
Well, he WAS a white guy. So they knew that releasing the video might actually make people realize that the guy wasn't a poor innocent victim.
Had he been black, releasing the video absolving themselves of wrongfully shooting would have just intensified the rioting.
Sigh
Guess i'm not getting a bunch of free *expletive deleted*it from bed bath and beyond anymore :-(
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Guess i'm not getting a bunch of free *expletive deleted*it from bed bath and beyond anymore :-(
I know, right? Totally bummed I won't be able to liberate the Roomba society owes me because some guy I've never met made a bonehead move. #benscleanfloormatters
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He chose...poorly.
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funny image
You know, on another forum I basically said the same thing? "Why are we in such a hurry to relocate them from a cold federal building where they have to feed themselves to a warm one where they get free food?"
And I'm glad the FBI released the video. I was like 'OH *expletive deleted*it' at 9:17 as he almost plows into one of the officers, even though I knew none of them were killed/hurt.
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The Bundy supporters on my Facebook are unphased by the video, claiming it's ambiguous, not buying he actually had a handgun on his left side ("who carries a handgun on their weak side?!?"), and claiming the cop that shot the guy did so because he thought he was being sneaky and was "surprised" when the shootee noticed him.
No different than when videos are released of shoots in urban areas, I guess. The true believers won't believe video evidence there either.
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...How do they know the guy wasn't left handed?
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Try reaching for an imaginary gun in your right vest pocket and then try it with your left vest pocket. I haven't watched the video. They said a 9mm was in his jacket pocket. Was it an inside pocket or outside pocket?
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The way he was reaching, I was guessing shoulder holster vs crossdraw.
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There is a ton of video of the deceased. He loved the camera. That could show how he carried
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Is LE still promoting the "random traffic stop" poopery? Trying to sell vehicles, officers, and a drone already in place as co-inkydinkle is rather a long stretch.
Brad
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Can any of y'all tell if maybe the cop he was facing plugged him, and he reached for the wound, and then got lit up by the guy in back? I'm sure an autopsy would shed some light on this.
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There is a ton of video of the deceased. He loved the camera. That could show how he carried
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Right hand hip, wheelgun. Since he was driving maybe he decided to just stick a gun in his pocket instead. A bit more comfortable and discreet that way (sitting in a car with low hip holster is painful)
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This isn't 'hands up don't shoot' shinola....
They were invited to a meeting with the Feds/Sheriff.
Either this shooting was gross incompetence or was an ambush.
Either way, the LEOs made it home safe and it was a mere serf that got greased.
Remember, federals LEOs murdering citizens "under the color if law" isn't an outlyer, its the norm.
They control the narrative, and so many otherwise intelligent people eat that narrative up.
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This isn't 'hands up don't shoot' shinola....
They were invited to a meeting with the Feds/Sheriff.
Either this shooting was gross incompetence or was an ambush.
Either way, the LEOs made it home safe and it was a mere serf that got greased.
Remember, federals LEOs murdering citizens "under the color if law" isn't an outlyer, its the norm.
They control the narrative, and so many otherwise intelligent people eat that narrative up.
Or you could NOT REACH FOR A *expletive deleted*ing WEAPON WHILE BEING ARRESTED.
This is particularly true after you have taken over a federal building, ran from the police, and hit one of them with your truck.
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This isn't 'hands up don't shoot' shinola....
They were invited to a meeting with the Feds/Sheriff.
Either this shooting was gross incompetence or was an ambush.
Either way, the LEOs made it home safe and it was a mere serf that got greased.
Remember, federals LEOs murdering citizens "under the color if law" isn't an outlyer, its the norm.
They control the narrative, and so many otherwise intelligent people eat that narrative up.
Yes it is exactly "Hands Up Don't Shoot" bullshit. Maybe Bundy could try posting a photo of the deceased moron when he was 12 and claim the cop shot an innocent little teenager. After all if you're gonna crib from the (some)BlackLivesMatter(onlywhenshotbyawhiteguy) playbook, might as well take the whole *expletive deleted*ing thing.
A) Idiot fled from the stop. That's *expletive deleted*ing retarded
B) Idiot runs up against a roadblock, veers off into the snow, then jumps out. *expletive deleted*ing retarded squared
C) Idiot reaches for his beltline twice and rightfully gets shot for doing so. If dumbfuck had kept his hands sky *expletive deleted*ing high he would still be alive and breathing.
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You don't *expletive deleted*ing get it. Somewhere down the road these aholes might be busting down your door for the crime of minding your own business and trying to scratch out a living. They will murder you in cild blood abd millions will say '*expletive deleted*ck yeah, 'murika!'
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You don't *expletive deleted*ing get it. Somewhere down the road these aholes might be busting down your door for the crime of minding your own business and trying to scratch out a living. They will murder you in cild blood abd millions will say '*expletive deleted*ck yeah, 'murika!'
Yup.
Not even getting into it with the rest that refuse to understand.
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You don't *expletive deleted*ing get it. Somewhere down the road these aholes might be busting down your door for the crime of minding your own business and trying to scratch out a living. They will murder you in cild blood abd millions will say '*expletive deleted*ck yeah, 'murika!'
Plenty of folks get it. Plenty of folks also recognize a turd for a turd, and that this particular turd did everything from the textbook to become a dead turd.
And there wasn't a *expletive deleted*ing thing in this stupid situation that had to do with minding your own business trying to scratch out a living. When you arm yourself and take over a federal building don't cry foul when you get shot. You want a rodeo? Don't *expletive deleted*ing cry when you get your ass thrown off the bull.
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Plenty of folks get it. Plenty of folks also recognize a turd for a turd, and that this particular turd did everything from the textbook to become a dead turd.
And there wasn't a *expletive deleted*ing thing in this stupid situation that had to do with minding your own business trying to scratch out a living. When you arm yourself and take over a federal building don't cry foul when you get shot. You want a rodeo? Don't *expletive deleted*ing cry when you get your ass thrown off the bull.
So a roadside ambush and a man being shot in the back is an acceptable outcome to you? Nevermind the fact that the lying *expletive deleted*ing scumbag feds lured him out with the promise of a peaceful palaver.
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So a roadside ambush and a man being shot in the back is an acceptable outcome to you? Nevermind the fact that the lying *expletive deleted*ing scumbag feds lured him out with the promise of a peaceful palaver.
I'm sorry I must have watched a different video. Because the one I saw involved running from police, damn near ramming through a road block almost killing someone in the process, and no one getting shot until they lowered their hand and went for a weapon.
Funny how everyone involved who didn't try and shoot themselves a fed managed to not get *expletive deleted*ing shot.
Sent from my iPhone. Freaking autocorrect.
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So a roadside ambush and a man being shot in the back is an acceptable outcome to you?
Put down the *expletive deleted*ing crack pipe
Nevermind the fact that the lying *expletive deleted*ing scumbag feds lured him out with the promise of a peaceful palaver.
Well obviously it was low down tactics to get them away from the compound for a peaceful arrest with the intention of no loss of life...How DARE they do that?
INSTEAD IT SHOULDA BEEN ANOTHER WACO SO THE KEYBOARD KOMMANDOS COULD GET A COUPLE DECADES OF MILEAGE OUT OF IT!!!111!!!!!!!!!
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I'd love to hear some of your advice to your children on how to handle traffic stops.
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Even if the traffic stop was bogus, and I still believe it was, I'm not sure how one can refute the bad moves in the video. I didn't see a guy being lured out to talk. I saw a guy who lost vehicle control while evading a blockade, then jumped out of his vehicle, moving quickly and erratically, and moving his hands all over the place.
Even if it was all a total setup, had he stayed in the vehicle like everyone else, or moved slowly and kept his hands up, he'd likely be alive today. He also fell back, not forward. It looked to me as if he was shot as he was turning towards the shooter, while his right hand was down in his coat.
Whether LE was right or wrong here regarding setting up the arrest, think about how you would react if say, you found an intruder in your home and you told him to put his hands up. If he started waving them around, or turned toward you with one hand positioned where a gun might be, what does your defensive training tell you that you should do?
I think there is still a valid argument to be made that LE could have used different means, a different location, or both if they wanted to make a peaceful arrest. Or that they could have waited the protesters out longer. But given this particular time snippet of this particular incident, it's hard for me to refute the argument that the dead guy made several bad decisions before he was shot. Even if LE was totally in the wrong, his self-preservation mechanism should have kicked in, especially if he thought LE was looking for any excuse to shoot.
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Well this thread went full retard quick
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Who claims they were meeting the feds?
That does not agree with current narrative. They were headed to meet like minded folks in John day.
Those folks were gonna be at a townhall type meeting the feds were holding there.
The claims that they were lured out by the feds and ambushed are specious
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http://abcnews.go.com/US/anatomy-takedown-deadly-oregon-shootout/story?id=36595434
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Cops did what cops do when you run from them, then put your hands anywhere but up. The video seems to support this. Lets go back to why they were running in the first place. All reports I've read have the OSP/FBI/whoever shooting at the first stop. They instigated this.
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Your version disagrees with the eye witnesses.
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Your version disagrees with the eye witnesses.
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Says the guy that insists Mark McConell was in the same vehicle.
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Didn't they have a arrest warrant for Amman Bundy? That would make sense to pull over a vehicle suspected of having him in it.
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Even the now discredited 18 year old girl disagrees.
The first stop had both vehicles stopped and one person already removed from the deceased man's car. He then chose poorly and made his break for freedom. I think he pay he'd himself up anticipating a confrontation and in the end psyched himself out. I am struck with similarities between his state of mind and that of joe horn in Texas. . Different results from poor decision making
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They had warrants for several of the folks in the vehicles . I think only 3 of them walked.
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If you don't want to die, you cooperate, no matter how bogus the stop is.
Bogus or not bogus? That you fight out in court.
Apparently, this particular nut did not want to fight things out in court. Thus he is now occupying the morgue.
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If you don't want to die, you cooperate, no matter how bogus the stop is.
Bogus or not bogus? That you fight out in court.
Apparently, this particular nut did not want to fight things out in court. Thus he is now occupying the morgue.
Yup a high sunblock number rendition of " I ain't going down like that" complete with choir singing "he din do nuffin! "
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This has slow mo zoomed video that shows how wrong folks can be. Even in the broad strokes. Cop that came outa trees shot with pistol not long gun.
Very interesting as is an article on "bearing arms" that breaks it down minute by minute
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/fbi_to_release_video_footage_o.html
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This has slow mo zoomed video that shows how wrong folks can be. Even in the broad strokes. Cop that came outa trees shot with pistol not long gun.
Very interesting as is an article on "bearing arms" that breaks it down minute by minute
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/fbi_to_release_video_footage_o.html
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Yeah...
I did a lot of reading on the subject and background of the guy since my initial post. It does look like the whole scenario was more 'suicide by cop' than anything else I might have originally thought... =|
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Given the stupidity and evil represented by the various physically represented sides in this sticky mess, I think Henry Kissinger's Iran/Iraq quote apt:
"It's a pity they can't both lose."
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This has slow mo zoomed video that shows how wrong folks can be. Even in the broad strokes. Cop that came outa trees shot with pistol not long gun.
Either way, he was still well out of spitting range.
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Lavoy Finicum chose poorly, in a series of decisions. However:
"This whole mess began because a Federal prosecutor (like all of them an effete urbanite) thought it would be amusing to make a felony out of some careless brush burnoffs by a couple of ranchers, and send the hayseeds to prison." ~Hognose.
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Lavoy Finicum chose poorly, in a series of decisions. However:
"This whole mess began because a Federal prosecutor (like all of them an effete urbanite) thought it would be amusing to make a felony out of some careless brush burnoffs by a couple of ranchers, and send the hayseeds to prison." ~Hognose.
In reality these 2 guys away with just a warning on the first time they pulled this stunt. Slow learners they did it again.
I think fir rest grump said it best
"You can't help stupid"
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Lavoy Finicum chose poorly, in a series of decisions. However:
"This whole mess began because a Federal prosecutor (like all of them an effete urbanite) thought it would be amusing to make a felony out of some careless brush burnoffs by a couple of ranchers, and send the hayseeds to prison." ~Hognose.
The whole Weaponsman post was excellent.
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question:
The original charges stem from the ranchers setting fires that were to prevent fires, including a back burn to stop a fire on federal land from spreading, correct?
Did it work or, rather, did the affects of those intentionally set fires do the job for which they were intended? and if they did work, wouldn't that be a benefit for both the ranchers and the federal land?
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question:
The original charges stem from the ranchers setting fires that were to prevent fires, including a back burn to stop a fire on federal land from spreading, correct?
Did it work or, rather, did the affects of those intentionally set fires do the job for which they were intended? and if they did work, wouldn't that be a benefit for both the ranchers and the federal land?
And without trying, you come to the crux of this entire fiasco.
Setting the occasional backburn is a very common thing. The two instances that led to this whole *expletive deleted*it show involve one burning 140 odd acres of "fed" land, and another burning 1 acre and actually improving the value of said federal land.
Try this guy, he's way more articulate than me, without going all Waco truther.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1JzuQf4DMU
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https://westernrifleshooters.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/d8d0fa7b-1517-4112-8562-d7e4c9d2e116.jpg
I can't decide if this is crazy like a fox or full retard.
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question:
The original charges stem from the ranchers setting fires that were to prevent fires, including a back burn to stop a fire on federal land from spreading, correct?
Did it work or, rather, did the affects of those intentionally set fires do the job for which they were intended? and if they did work, wouldn't that be a benefit for both the ranchers and the federal land?
Yeah, but he didn't get a burn permit. ;/ (the sad thing is, that really might be it)
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The jury did not swallow the "backfire' narrative. Perhaps it being the second set of fires made that little tough to sell
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The jury did not swallow the "backfire' narrative. Perhaps it being the second set of fires made that little tough to sell
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And have you noticed who winds up on juries most of the time?
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The jury did not swallow the "backfire' narrative. Perhaps it being the second set of fires made that little tough to sell
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Honestly, it doesn't matter. I don't think anyone here particularly blames the jury. The point is about the Federal government that sent ranchers to prison for a brush fire that got out of control. Nothing else was proven in court. Just the fire. So they're back in prison for a fire.
And that's why Lavoy, with all his faults, was on site. I'm not trying to avoid putting blame on anyone. But there is a very clear cause/effect in play here and as long as these abuses continue it is not going to stop. The lesson here is not merely what happened but how it's going to go down next time, and there will be a next time. And here's a clue...it probably won't be just one guy dying.
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Honestly, it doesn't matter. I don't think anyone here particularly blames the jury. The point is about the Federal government that sent ranchers to prison for a brush fire that got out of control. Nothing else was proven in court. Just the fire. So they're back in prison for a fire.
And that's why Lavoy, with all his faults, was on site. I'm not trying to avoid putting blame on anyone. But there is a very clear cause/effect in play here and as long as these abuses continue it is not going to stop. The lesson here is not merely what happened but how it's going to go down next time, and there will be a next time. And here's a clue...it probably won't be just one guy dying.
The 'next times' seem to be happening at a greater frequency.
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Am I wrong in surmising that the BLM is not only run by but caters to Luddite coastal envirofreaks instead of their supposed clients, the ranchers and other-landworkers who are forced to interact with them on a regular basis?
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And have you noticed who winds up on juries most of the time?
People not bright enough to get out of jury duty.
IMO, step one is to make jury pay the same as the judge's pay. Lots of folks can't afford to risk getting stuck on a long trial without enough pay to even cover a couple McDonald's value meals a day.
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Am I wrong in surmising that the BLM is not only run by but caters to Luddite coastal envirofreaks instead of their supposed clients, the ranchers and other-landworkers who are forced to interact with them on a regular basis?
You pretty much just described every federal agency.
Lavoy being a jackass or not aside, the entire situation has stunk to high heaven from stage one.
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18000 permits seem to be handled without controversial events. Why is it only these modern dannites have troubles with white rancher welfare?
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http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/grazing.html
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18000 permits seem to be handled without controversial events. Why is it only these modern dannites have troubles with white rancher welfare?
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http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/grazing.html
Honestly, I don't know. But I do know the BLM has clashed with anyone who uses federal land for anything other than birdwatching. And based on the amount of property the BLM has subsumed in the Malheur area, and the tactics they have purportedly used to get it, what happened here isn't exactly shocking.
And whatever the legal intricacies, it's still immoral. Saying that these guys deserved to go to jail because out 18000 permit applicants they were the *only* ones that had a problem, in the absence of another related conviction, is still the weakest of sauce.
I know that being the dissenting voice here is your niche, and I don't resent that one bit. I appreciate it. I also know you love finding the flaws in individual cases that are held up in the media as representing a problem. I have benefited from your research in many other cases. With that in mind, let me reiterate that I am not seeking to absolve anyone from blame. I understand that the judgement passed down was perfectly legal and not without precedent. I'm merely emphasizing that it was completely immoral, unethical, and disproportionate, and that other men can easily envision ways which this abuse of power will affect them.
If similar abuses continue to happen at the hands of unaccountable beaureaucrats, then these types of protests, however ill-advised, will continue. They will not go away. That is not in the DNA of the movement, even if it is top-heavy with keyboard commandoes and Stewart Rhodes types afraid of their own shadows.
IMO the Feds have made a martyr, if not unjustly then certainly unnecessarily, and one more sympathetic than Randy Weaver or David Koresh, whom I have never seen in a facebook meme.
Unlike most keyboard patriots, I also see this continuum as being very long, and the end of it, if any, being yet distant rather than immediate.
For those like myself who prognosticate on these situations, I would be wary of disorganized, overly enthusiastic individuals such as the decedent and his friends, who have and will cause chaos. But beware the end state of their efforts, which will result in a deeper, darker, more professional phase of this cold civil war. I fear that way lurks more secret and organized groups who are keeping score and don't like to brag about how many Feds they could have killed any time they wanted to, a la Ryan Payne. If they feel the need to act they will simply kill then disappear.
I pray, of course, that none of this happens. Nothing good will come of it, but as with Lavoy, we can only deal with realities and consequences, not wishful thinking. Personally, I'm hoping for secession.
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Am I wrong in surmising that the BLM is not only run by but caters to Luddite coastal envirofreaks instead of their supposed clients, the ranchers and other-landworkers who are forced to interact with them on a regular basis?
The switch from consumptive to recreation/conservation usage of public lands began in the 1950s when urban folks started to use their cheap cars, cheap fuel and extra money/leisure time to start exploring the public lands.
Google "Mission 66" this one of the programs out on the 1950s, this is the park service, but there is similar plans for forest service and BLM.
Also rent rates for public land is cheaper then they should be, so it is also a form of welfare for the ranchers.
If you bring up the argument that they should sell the public land, just remember wealthy billionaires like Ted Turner is going to buy it and no one will have access.
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If you bring up the argument that they should sell the public land, just remember wealthy billionaires like Ted Turner is going to buy it and no one will have access.
IMO, it ought to be given over to the states. My own state here passed legislation "requiring" this be done (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Transfer_of_Public_Lands_Act), but they'll have to (successfully) sue the federal government to make it actually happen. I expect little to nothing to happen on that front.
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Lady has an agenda but her numbers are good
http://www.forbes.com/sites/vickeryeckhoff/2014/04/25/federal-grazing-program-in-bundy-dispute-rips-off-taxpayers-wild-horses/#2885e7d37b78
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Lady has an agenda but her numbers are good
http://www.forbes.com/sites/vickeryeckhoff/2014/04/25/federal-grazing-program-in-bundy-dispute-rips-off-taxpayers-wild-horses/#2885e7d37b78
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I'm not opposed to government management of the land. I'm opposed to an unaccountable morally corrupt bureaucracy cooperating with Federal prosecutors to accuse ranchers of terrorism after a burn got a little out of hand.
Government-managed common land has a tradition in common law and from where I sit there is no inherent difficulty there. I am ambivalent, due to lack of research, on whether or not Federal lands should go to the States and what Ranchers should be charged for grazing it. The market will sort that out, given the opportunity. As I understand it Texas has almost no federal land and seems to provide beef just fine.
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If you bring up the argument that they should sell the public land, just remember wealthy billionaires like Ted Turner is going to buy it and no one will have access.
Depends on how it's sold and how the sales are advertised; yes, if you're selling it only in 10,000 acre chunks, only the very wealthy will get it, but 10-150-500 acre parcels with notice given in a truly public way ahead of time will attract a lot of people. Access easements to sections of particular public interest (which should be held by the state, though with some restrictions to keep state lawmakers from selling them off or leasing them out to fund some boondoggle) would keep the parts most people would ever care about having access to open.
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https://westernrifleshooters.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/d8d0fa7b-1517-4112-8562-d7e4c9d2e116.jpg
I can't decide if this is crazy like a fox or full retard.
He won't be happy until they Waco him.
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Depends on how it's sold and how the sales are advertised; yes, if you're selling it only in 10,000 acre chunks, only the very wealthy will get it, but 10-150-500 acre parcels with notice given in a truly public way ahead of time will attract a lot of people. Access easements to sections of particular public interest (which should be held by the state, though with some restrictions to keep state lawmakers from selling them off or leasing them out to fund some boondoggle) would keep the parts most people would ever care about having access to open.
States like Wyoming don't have easement laws, you can be truly landlocked. BLM land is the land that no one wanted (or could make a living off of) after the land grant system was ended.
Also more than likely it will be sold off in sections, so even at $100 an acre, a section is going to be $64K.
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18000 permits seem to be handled without controversial events. Why is it only these modern dannites have troubles with white rancher welfare?
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http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/grazing.html
Just going to paraphrase your last slew of posts; You're totally OK with these guys being sent to prison on terrorism charges. Great. Got it.
My days of taking anything you post seriously are coming to a middle.
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If you bring up the argument that they should sell the public land, just remember wealthy billionaires like Ted Turner is going to buy it and no one will have access.
True. If you need proof, look to Chile: http://observers.france24.com/en/20100128-man-who-buying-south-america-chilet-argentine-parcs-prives-douglas-tompkins
My wife was from Chile. She hated him, and every Chilean I have spoken with hates him. But ... the socialist-leaning government of Chile loves his money ...
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IMO, it ought to be given over to the states. My own state here passed legislation "requiring" this be done (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Transfer_of_Public_Lands_Act), but they'll have to (successfully) sue the federal government to make it actually happen. I expect little to nothing to happen on that front.
Be careful what you wish for.
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Depends on how it's sold and how the sales are advertised; yes, if you're selling it only in 10,000 acre chunks, only the very wealthy will get it, but 10-150-500 acre parcels with notice given in a truly public way ahead of time will attract a lot of people.
Not that land. You need to sell it in pretty big chunks for it to be productive. Selling/giving it away in small chunks is how this mess started out to begin with. All the good areas -- places with year-round water, mostly -- got homesteaded or bought, and the rest nobody wanted.
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Be careful what you wish for.
Eh. Depends on the state most likely. On average I don't see the states handling the land any worse than the feds. Utah is over 66% federal land; Nevada is over 80%, I find those numbers a tad ridiculous.
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Just going to paraphrase your last slew of posts; You're totally OK with these guys being sent to prison on terrorism charges. Great. Got it.
My days of taking anything you post seriously are coming to a middle.
They are facing mandatory minimum sentencing for arson, not terrorism.
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They are facing mandatory minimum sentencing for arson, not terrorism.
Don't interject facts into a wnd/infowars fueled fantasy
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I am sure the years will rest more lightly on their shoulders, given they were imposed for arson, not terrorism.
As for the NWR occupiers, I am not sure they had thier Underpants Gnome plan to riches liberty quite ready for prime time.
For my own part, I suspect more such incidents will occur, unless the gov't gets smart and aggressively ignores such occupiers and reforms its abuses. The Brits in N Ireland showed the likeliest path to victory in such a situation by iron discipline in the face of provocation and minding its own store.
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Anybody ever wonder how the "hard working" ranchers and farmers seem to be second only to liberal looters and pampered housewives in the amount of free time they have available to lobby and protest?
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I am sure the years will rest more lightly on their shoulders, given they were imposed for arson, not terrorism.
As for the NWR occupiers, I am not sure they had thier Underpants Gnome plan to riches liberty quite ready for prime time.
For my own part, I suspect more such incidents will occur, unless the gov't gets smart and aggressively ignores such occupiers and reforms its abuses. The Brits in N Ireland showed the likeliest path to victory in such a situation by iron discipline in the face of provocation and minding its own store.
It runs in cycles out west, google sage brush rebellion sometime.
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Eh. Depends on the state most likely. On average I don't see the states handling the land any worse than the feds. Utah is over 66% federal land; Nevada is over 80%, I find those numbers a tad ridiculous.
I bet California would throw a pickle into, maybe a Colorado, maybe one more state, either Oregon or Washington.