Protesters Take Over National Wildlife Refuge

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/anatomy-takedown-deadly-oregon-shootout/story?id=36595434

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[Andiron]

Cops did what cops do when you run from them,  then put your hands anywhere but up.  The video seems to support this.  Lets go back to why they were running in the first place.  All reports I've read have the OSP/FBI/whoever shooting at the first stop.  They instigated this.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Your version disagrees with the eye witnesses.


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[Andiron]

Your version disagrees with the eye witnesses.


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Says the guy that insists Mark McConell was in the same vehicle.

[charby]

Didn't they have a arrest warrant for Amman Bundy? That would make sense to pull over a vehicle suspected of having him in it.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Even the now discredited 18 year old girl disagrees.
The first stop had both vehicles stopped and one person already removed from the deceased man's car. He then chose poorly and made his break for freedom. I think he pay he'd himself up anticipating a confrontation and in the end psyched himself out. I am struck with similarities between his state of mind and that of joe horn in Texas. . Different results from poor decision making


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[cassandra and sara's daddy]

They had warrants for several of the folks in the vehicles . I think only 3 of them walked.


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[BlueStarLizzard]

If you don't want to die, you cooperate, no matter how bogus the stop is.

Bogus or not bogus? That you fight out in court.

Apparently, this particular nut did not want to fight things out in court. Thus he is now occupying the morgue.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

If you don't want to die, you cooperate, no matter how bogus the stop is.

Bogus or not bogus? That you fight out in court.

Apparently, this particular nut did not want to fight things out in court. Thus he is now occupying the morgue.

Yup a high sunblock number rendition of " I ain't going down like that"  complete with  choir singing "he din do nuffin! "

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[cassandra and sara's daddy]

This has slow mo zoomed video that shows how wrong folks can be. Even in the broad strokes. Cop that came outa trees shot with pistol not long gun.
Very interesting as is an article on "bearing arms" that breaks it down minute by minute
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/fbi_to_release_video_footage_o.html


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[brimic]

This has slow mo zoomed video that shows how wrong folks can be. Even in the broad strokes. Cop that came outa trees shot with pistol not long gun.
Very interesting as is an article on "bearing arms" that breaks it down minute by minute
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/fbi_to_release_video_footage_o.html


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Yeah...
I did a lot of reading on the subject and background of the guy since my initial post. It does look like the whole scenario was more 'suicide by cop' than anything else I might have originally thought...

[roo_ster]

Given the stupidity and evil represented by the various physically represented sides in this sticky mess, I think Henry Kissinger's Iran/Iraq quote apt:
"It's a pity they can't both lose."

[KD5NRH]

This has slow mo zoomed video that shows how wrong folks can be. Even in the broad strokes. Cop that came outa trees shot with pistol not long gun.

Either way, he was still well out of spitting range.

[Jocassee]

Lavoy Finicum chose poorly, in a series of decisions. However:

"This whole mess began because a Federal prosecutor (like all of them an effete urbanite) thought it would be amusing to make a felony out of some careless brush burnoffs by a couple of ranchers, and send the hayseeds to prison." ~Hognose.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Lavoy Finicum chose poorly, in a series of decisions. However:

"This whole mess began because a Federal prosecutor (like all of them an effete urbanite) thought it would be amusing to make a felony out of some careless brush burnoffs by a couple of ranchers, and send the hayseeds to prison." ~Hognose.

In reality these 2 guys away with just a warning on the first time they pulled this stunt. Slow learners they did it again.
I think fir rest grump said it best
"You can't help stupid"


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[Andiron]

Lavoy Finicum chose poorly, in a series of decisions. However:

"This whole mess began because a Federal prosecutor (like all of them an effete urbanite) thought it would be amusing to make a felony out of some careless brush burnoffs by a couple of ranchers, and send the hayseeds to prison." ~Hognose.

The whole Weaponsman post was excellent.

[BlueStarLizzard]

question:

The original charges stem from the ranchers setting fires that were to prevent fires, including a back burn to stop a fire on federal land from spreading, correct?

Did it work or, rather, did the affects of those intentionally set fires do the job for which they were intended? and if they did work, wouldn't that be a benefit for both the ranchers and the federal land? 

[Andiron]

question:

The original charges stem from the ranchers setting fires that were to prevent fires, including a back burn to stop a fire on federal land from spreading, correct?

Did it work or, rather, did the affects of those intentionally set fires do the job for which they were intended? and if they did work, wouldn't that be a benefit for both the ranchers and the federal land? 

And without trying, you come to the crux of this entire fiasco.

Setting the occasional backburn is a very common thing.  The two instances that led to this whole *expletive deleted*it show involve one burning 140 odd acres of "fed" land,  and another burning 1 acre and actually improving the value of said federal land.

Try this guy,  he's way more articulate than me,  without going all Waco truther.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1JzuQf4DMU

[Andiron]

https://westernrifleshooters.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/d8d0fa7b-1517-4112-8562-d7e4c9d2e116.jpg

I can't decide if this is crazy like a fox or full retard.

[zxcvbob]

question:

The original charges stem from the ranchers setting fires that were to prevent fires, including a back burn to stop a fire on federal land from spreading, correct?

Did it work or, rather, did the affects of those intentionally set fires do the job for which they were intended? and if they did work, wouldn't that be a benefit for both the ranchers and the federal land? 

Yeah, but he didn't get a burn permit.    (the sad thing is, that really might be it)

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

The jury did not swallow the "backfire' narrative.  Perhaps it being the second set of fires made that little tough to sell

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[Northwoods]

The jury did not swallow the "backfire' narrative.  Perhaps it being the second set of fires made that little tough to sell

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And have you noticed who winds up on juries most of the time?

[Jocassee]

The jury did not swallow the "backfire' narrative.  Perhaps it being the second set of fires made that little tough to sell

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Honestly, it doesn't matter. I don't think anyone here particularly blames the jury. The point is about the Federal government that sent ranchers to prison for a brush fire that got out of control. Nothing else was proven in court. Just the fire. So they're back in prison for a fire.

And that's why Lavoy, with all his faults, was on site. I'm not trying to avoid putting blame on anyone. But there is a very clear cause/effect in play here and as long as these abuses continue it is not going to stop. The lesson here is not merely what happened but how it's going to go down next time, and there will be a next time. And here's a clue...it probably won't be just one guy dying.

[brimic]

Honestly, it doesn't matter. I don't think anyone here particularly blames the jury. The point is about the Federal government that sent ranchers to prison for a brush fire that got out of control. Nothing else was proven in court. Just the fire. So they're back in prison for a fire.

And that's why Lavoy, with all his faults, was on site. I'm not trying to avoid putting blame on anyone. But there is a very clear cause/effect in play here and as long as these abuses continue it is not going to stop. The lesson here is not merely what happened but how it's going to go down next time, and there will be a next time. And here's a clue...it probably won't be just one guy dying.

The 'next times' seem to be happening at a greater frequency.

[Jocassee]

Am I wrong in surmising that the BLM is not only run by but caters to Luddite coastal envirofreaks instead of their supposed clients, the ranchers and other-landworkers who are forced to interact with them on a regular basis?