Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: RoadKingLarry on October 13, 2019, 10:13:41 AM
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The story is a little light on the details as usual but so far sounds pretty damning for the Fort Worth cops
https://www.foxnews.com/us/fort-worth-texas-police-officer-woman-killed-welfare-check (https://www.foxnews.com/us/fort-worth-texas-police-officer-woman-killed-welfare-check)
Synopsis: Cops called for a "welfare check". Cops arrive on scene, see someone inside the residence, shoot and kill said someone., At least they cops all got to go home at the end of their shift.
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???
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Looks like we'll need to wait for more info. Lots of speculation right now. There's bodycam footage that has been released, but they're not releasing the footage from in the house, which would be the critical video. A neighbor supposedly claimed they didn't identify themselves before they entered.
To me, this stuff wraps right back around to red flag laws. Too many of these "welfare checks" seem to turn into SRT responses instead of actual welfare checks. I'm guessing some combo of how people report it to the cops, varying response procedures by individual agencies, and I suppose, society going overboard on "everything is a violent threat, including the hat you wear" so the cops just get a "potentially dangerous person" call and respond with that in the back of their mind.
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I'm going to have to advise whatever friends and relatives I have that under no circumstances are they to call the police to request a "welfare" check if I don't answer my phone.
In a statement, the department said it received a call at 2:25 a.m. reporting an open front door at a residence. Responding officers searched the perimeter of the house and saw a person standing inside near the window, according to police.
"Perceiving a threat, the officer drew his duty weapon and fired one shot, striking the person inside the residence," the department stated. In body camera video released by police, two officers search the home from the outside with flashlights before one shouts, "Put your hands up, show me your hands." One shot is then fired through a window.
If I'm in my home at 02:30 a.m., it's extremely unlikely that I would be aware of someone walking around the outside of my house. How is a person who thinks they are alone inside the house supposed to know that a voice from somewhere outside is talking to them when saying "Show me your hands"? This sort of thing has happened too often of late. I don't see it as a white cops vs black people issue, I see it as a complete failure of police training. I have commented multiple times in the past about what I perceive to be the over-reliance on "command voice." Too many cops today come out of training with an Attitude (with a capital 'A') that their word is law, that compliance with their directives -- no matter how stupid, inappropriate, or contradictory -- must be instant and complete or the punishment is death by firing squad.
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I agree with Hawkmoon. It's a problem when the officers think of a welfare check as a compliance with authority check. Common sense will tell you that somebody awakened in the middle of the night by unknown noises may be cautious enough to arm themselves. I didn't see any link to the body cam video but it sure seems trigger happy by the description.
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The other question that is too late for this woman is why didn't the neighbor go over and ring the doorbell? When you call the cops, you are calling to ask people to come with guns. Sometimes they don't do what you expect them to.
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Why did the police send their SWAT team? Was there some miscommunication that got this classified as some sort of crime in progress?
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http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=56381.0
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=56428.0
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=58699.0
A few other similar discussions. Not all the same, but few see the police punished at all.
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Okay, I watched the body cam footage. There was maybe 1 second between the officer starting to yell commands and the shot. There was not time for the woman to respond at all. Considering this was not supposed to be any sort of active situation and there was no report of an actual crime, that reaction is way beyond reasonable. I can't see how this would be a good shoot.
Not to mention, why would the officers be looking around the back yard when they haven't even knocked on the door yet?
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tactically, I was thinking a homeowner should be careful not to silhouette yourself in your own windows. But thinking about my house, I have a few big windows in a group in the living room looking out at the back yard. Using powerful flashlights, someone might see me even if I am in the back of the room. Something to think about when it comes to tactics of responding to noise/people outside.
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https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/video-fort-worth-woman-shot-and-killed-by-police-officer-in-her-home-after-welfare-call/
Lots of comments almost none of them kind to police.
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You guys know me to be the resident law enforcement supporter/police sympathizer. Too many years carrying a prosecutor's badge. So i looked into the shooting looking for a defense of the officer...
I can't fine one here.
You have an officer responding to an open door. Middle of the night. No knowledge if the lawful occupant is present or not. Go around to the backyard. Shine lights in the window and, judging from the video, they don't take a moment to identify the person. Gun up and shot.
Now, part of me wonders about a growing attitude of people, law enforcement included, that anyone with a firearm is a bad guy. Despite an increase of CCW permits and what I perceive to be increasingly common firearm ownership, there's this belief that gun=bad guy. So, cop goes to house, sees person inside with a gun (there's a picture of a handgun being shown in connection with the story), so BANG! As a lawful gun owner, what do I do to make myself less of a target (pun intended) in a situation where I'm in mu home, with a firearm. Well, I clean my guns in my workbench, which is in my attached garage with no windows. Dry fire or draw practice only with the blinds closed, or back in my garage. Any other thoughts?
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You guys know me to be the resident law enforcement supporter/police sympathizer. Too many years carrying a prosecutor's badge. So i looked into the shooting looking for a defense of the officer...
I can't fine one here.
You have an officer responding to an open door. Middle of the night. No knowledge if the lawful occupant is present or not. Go around to the backyard. Shine lights in the window and, judging from the video, they don't take a moment to identify the person. Gun up and shot.
Now, part of me wonders about a growing attitude of people, law enforcement included, that anyone with a firearm is a bad guy. Despite an increase of CCW permits and what I perceive to be increasingly common firearm ownership, there's this belief that gun=bad guy. So, cop goes to house, sees person inside with a gun (there's a picture of a handgun being shown in connection with the story), so BANG! As a lawful gun owner, what do I do to make myself less of a target (pun intended) in a situation where I'm in mu home, with a firearm. Well, I clean my guns in my workbench, which is in my attached garage with no windows. Dry fire or draw practice only with the blinds closed, or back in my garage. Any other thoughts?
All they've shown was that a gun was in found the house. If she had actually been holding a gun, that's what all the stories would lead with.
I think he pulled his gun (unnecessarily) with his finger on the trigger and fired accidentally. Not sure what the maximum sentence in Texas is for manslaughter, but I think that fits (based on not a lot of facts at this point.) Murder will be way too hard to prove. Negligent homicide is a maximum of 2 years, and that's not enough.
A lot of us are starting to believe cop=bad guy.
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I think he pulled his gun (unnecessarily) with his finger on the trigger and fired accidentally. Not sure what the maximum sentence in Texas is for manslaughter, but I think that fits (based on not a lot of facts at this point.) Murder will be way too hard to prove. Negligent homicide is a maximum of 2 years, and that's not enough.
Amber Guyger was just convicted of murder and, for all her stupidity, her case was a lot less murder than this one.
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Amber Guyger was just convicted of murder and, for all her stupidity, her case was a lot less murder than this one.
Yes it was. But the different levels of homicide have definitions, and if the cop claims he didn't mean to shoot I don't think they can get a murder conviction. Amber G. said she intentionally killed the guy; that makes it either murder or justifiable homicide.
I looked up the maximum sentence for manslaughter; it's 20 years and/or a $10,000 fine.
Chris or Ned can probably answer this; what does it take to strip an officer of qualified immunity? That's what needs to happen in a lot of these cases. Perhaps just a negligent homicide conviction is enough for that; then after he gets out of jail in 6 months, he can lose his house and entire life savings to the victim's family.
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https://youtu.be/839XoPYAHP0
Donut Operator didn't have any more to add than what we have seen. He also mentioned it looked like it could be a negligent discharge.
He played some press conference stuff around why the police department released the picture of the gun if they were not willing to say the officer was being threatened with it. I guess they might say more tomorrow.
I was also curious why the officers approached this situation the way they did. It appears they approached this as if a crime was in progress or they were searching for a criminal. Also why was this group sent to the home instead of a regular patrol unit since I heard they were in tacticals instead of a normal uniform. Made me wonder if they got bad information from dispatch. It doesn't excuse anything, just might explain a little.
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Article with video.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/officer-bodycam-shooting-killing-woman-home/story?id=66237208
NOT a good shoot.
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Even if the woman had the gun in her hand and was pointing it out the window at the cop she wasn’t doing anything wrong. As far as I’m seeing so far the cops didn’t identify either themselves or their target.
As far as the generalized “cops=bad guys” ignorance ... sure, and you have to answer for everything bad anyone you can be linked to does.
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I agree with Chris, totally apart from this particular case.
Now, part of me wonders about a growing attitude of people, law enforcement included, that anyone with a firearm is a bad guy. Despite an increase of CCW permits and what I perceive to be increasingly common firearm ownership, there's this belief that gun=bad guy. So, cop goes to house, sees person inside with a gun (there's a picture of a handgun being shown in connection with the story), so BANG!
Propaganda works.
I lived in NY the first two decades of my life, and I can atttest: If you have a gun, you are either a cop or a criminal to almost everybody.
Period.
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You guys know me to be the resident law enforcement supporter/police sympathizer. Too many years carrying a prosecutor's badge. So i looked into the shooting looking for a defense of the officer...
I can't fine one here.
You have an officer responding to an open door. Middle of the night. No knowledge if the lawful occupant is present or not. Go around to the backyard. Shine lights in the window and, judging from the video, they don't take a moment to identify the person. Gun up and shot.
Now, part of me wonders about a growing attitude of people, law enforcement included, that anyone with a firearm is a bad guy. Despite an increase of CCW permits and what I perceive to be increasingly common firearm ownership, there's this belief that gun=bad guy. So, cop goes to house, sees person inside with a gun (there's a picture of a handgun being shown in connection with the story), so BANG! As a lawful gun owner, what do I do to make myself less of a target (pun intended) in a situation where I'm in mu home, with a firearm. Well, I clean my guns in my workbench, which is in my attached garage with no windows. Dry fire or draw practice only with the blinds closed, or back in my garage. Any other thoughts?
On the last part, the only windows I leave the blinds/curtains open are also where I have an outdoor light illuminating the back yard. That ought to at least allow me to see them first if I am paying attention. Maybe. Definitely something that I will be thinking about.
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On the last part, the only windows I leave the blinds/curtains open are also where I have an outdoor light illuminating the back yard. That ought to at least allow me to see them first if I am paying attention. Maybe. Definitely something that I will be thinking about.
I need to assess this myself. The place here has a ton of big windows. On one side of the house (what you might consider the front), I close the blinds in late afternoon to keep the sun from shining directly in and then leave them shut till morning. The other side is pretty a much a "wall" of windows into the backyard, which then goes into a neighbors pasture. Because it's a fairly private setting and there are no "sun blinding" issues, I leave the blinds up on that side of the house 24/7. It's probably not the tactically aware thing to do. Though I had to install blinds when I moved in. Other than the bedrooms, the last owners had no blinds or curtains anywhere. I saw similar quite a bit when I was still looking at places. I guess people figure if they're out in the boonies, there's no need for window coverings.
I've been thinking about setting up a couple of solar motion lights in back, but then I have to worry about various critters setting them off and creating false alarms. The one neighbor's free range peacocks already drive me crazy with tripping a driveway sensor I have set up a couple hundred yards from the house.
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Re: driveway sensors. If you want it to activate just for cars, this thing has worked well for me for 3 years now. https://www.dakotaalert.com/store/2500-series-products/dcpa-2500-driveway-alarm-transmitter/
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Bad shoot all around. Responding to a welfare check call with guns drawn? Shooting through a window with little/no reasonably warning when no apparent threat to officers existed?
I'm with Chris... police work is tough so I try to be as understanding as possible, but there's no understanding this.
Brad
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Bad shoot all around. Responding to a welfare check call with guns drawn? Shooting through a window with little/no reasonably warning when no apparent threat to officers existed?
I'm with Chris... police work is tough so I try to be as understanding as possible, but there's no understanding this.
Brad
I have heard more than one person mention they think it was a negligent discharge. I am inclined to agree. Still a bad shoot, but maybe it would be manslaughter instead of murder.
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I have heard more than one person mention they think it was a negligent discharge. I am inclined to agree. Still a bad shoot, but maybe it would be manslaughter instead of murder.
Except the Agency's release say that the Officer fired "when he perceived a threat". If he's on record as saying that, then he meant to pull the trigger. One doesn't point a firearm at a threat and hope for an ND.
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I USED to be the one that gave the benefit of the doubt to the police.
These types of stories have emptied me of that good will.
I now have to work really hard to remember that these are probably not representative of the majority of police officers.
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Just got an update on my phone. Interim Chief says he would have fired the officer, but he resigned first. Second part, he says that the officer may be charged criminally. Says he expects an update by tomorrow.
Guess we will see...
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https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/fort-worth-officer-who-shot-and-killed-atatiana-jefferson-in-her-home-has-resigned/
Fort Worth Officer Who Shot and Killed Atatiana Jefferson in Her Home Has Resigned
IMO, it sounds like he knows he screwed up. We will see where this goes.
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I'm struggling to comprehend how a profeshunal can have a lesser sentence for a negligent discharge that kills a person than a deliberate decision that kills a person.
And in regards to liability, I'd see that self-admission of negligence as a means to strip the person of any qualified immunity or umbrella protection of a union's representation.
Then again, I've always struggled with the morality and logic of DUI laws. Deliberately kill a person with a weapon and for a defined reason, and it's Murder 1. But get drunk and kill someone while driving impaired, it's only manslaughter and pretty light sentence considering. Anywhere from 2-10 years, IIRC, and someone above mentioned a $10,000 fine. And get drunk and kill no one and drive all the way home only to get pulled over right before your driveway, you're looking at a $6000 fine here in AZ and like 6 months of jail time.
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The Fort Worth police chief says a white officer accused in the fatal shooting of a black woman in her home has resigned.
Interim Chief Ed Kraus said Monday that if the officer, Aaron Dean, had not resigned, he would have been fired.
Dean shot 28-year-old Atatiana Jefferson through her window in the early hours of Saturday morning. Officers were called to her home when a concerned neighbor worried for her safety noticed her door was open.
Police have said the officer perceived a threat when he saw someone near the window and opened fire.
Earlier Monday, family lawyer Lee Merritt called for the officer to be fired and charged in Jefferson’s killing.
Fort Worth Officer Who Shot and Killed Atatiana Jefferson in Her Home Has Resigned
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/fort-worth-officer-who-shot-and-killed-atatiana-jefferson-in-her-home-has-resigned/
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Except the Agency's release say that the Officer fired "when he perceived a threat". If he's on record as saying that, then he meant to pull the trigger. One doesn't point a firearm at a threat and hope for an ND.
I interpret the spokesperson's statement as a quote/paraphrase of the officer's initial statement, not as a statement of fact regarding what happened.
Also, no officer will ever admit he had a ND that killed someone. Basically, the officer had an oops, but said there was a threat. The police department spokesperson repeated that. Now that we have more information, we see that the officer and the department are updating the statements.
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Except the Agency's release say that the Officer fired "when he perceived a threat". If he's on record as saying that, then he meant to pull the trigger. One doesn't point a firearm at a threat and hope for an ND.
I think they are lying because they think it helps his case. (it's just a little lie...) FWPD needs to recuse themselves and turn the investigation over to the Texas Rangers.
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Per my phone. the ex-officer has been arrested and booked on a murder charge. (8:24 p.m. on 10/14).
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Per my phone. the ex-officer has been arrested and booked on a murder charge. (8:24 p.m. on 10/14).
The real question that will never be answered is: Did they charge and arrest him because it was the proper thing to do or because they are afraid of the riots protests if they didn't?
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FORT WORTH (CBSDFW.COM) – The Fort Worth Police officer who shot and killed a woman in her home early Saturday morning has been booked into the Tarrant County Jail and charged with murder.
Bond has not been set.
Former Fort Worth Police Officer Aaron Dean Charged With Murder
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/former-fort-worth-police-officer-aaron-dean-charged-with-murder/ar-AAIMcSq
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Forth Worth Police Department Chief Ed Kraus said Dean would have been terminated if he had not resigned, and is considered dishonorably discharged. Kraus also told reporters the U.S. Justice Department will examine the case for possible civil rights violations. Dean is white, and Jefferson was black.
What is this dishonorably discharged *expletive deleted*it? You ain’t military.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/10/15/fort-worth-woman-killed-by-officer-heard-noises-outside-drew-gun-nephew-told-authorities/
The nephew of the 28-year-old black woman fatally shot in her home by a white Fort Worth police officer over the weekend said his aunt drew a gun after hearing noises outside her house, according to an arrest warrant affidavit for the officer released Tuesday.
The details in the affidavit add weight to earlier accounts of the shooting from family members and city officials who said Atatiana Jefferson was trying to protect herself and the 8-year-old boy from what she thought was an intruder when she was killed early Saturday. The officer who shot Jefferson, Aaron Dean, resigned and was charged with murder on Monday.
According to the affidavit, Jefferson’s nephew told a forensic interviewer that he and his aunt were playing video games in a back bedroom when Jefferson “heard noises coming from outside” and “took her handgun from her purse.”
The boy told the interviewer that Jefferson “raised her handgun, pointed it toward the window” and “was shot and fell to the ground,” according to the affidavit. She was pronounced dead at the scene.
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From the same article. I agree.
On Monday, Fort Worth Mayor Betsy Price told people to disregard the weapon. “The gun is irrelevant,” Price said in a news conference. Jefferson “was in her own home caring for an 8-year-old nephew.”
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Watching the body cam video again, I guess it didn't occur to me the first time how quickly the shooting happened after the officer went through the back gate. Almost as soon as he went through the back gate, he shined his flashlight in the window and saw the woman. And his first instinct was not to back off, but to draw his gun and start issuing commands (through the window?). I also assumed the second officer was with him, but maybe not. I am not sure where the second officer was at the time of the shooting.
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Well, that could change things. I'm not sure how reliable an 8 year old witness is, though.
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Well, that could change things. I'm not sure how reliable an 8 year old witness is, though.
I am sure it will be used by the defense. Can the officer say he had a right to be in her backyard looking around? Especially when he is not readily identifiable as a police officer?
Actually, I kind of hope they bring that up. It would be interesting to see how the courts deal with it. Does a "welfare check" give the officer the right to trespass without identifying themselves? Or to use lethal force when they perceive a threat while doing so?
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I don't see that it changes things at all. As the mayor said, she was in her own home and she had every right to be armed. Skulking around the back yard of a private residence never used to be S.O.P. for conducting a welfare check, unless the officer(s) had already knocked on the front door and got no response. In any event, the bodycam video tells the tale. He did NOT identify himself as a police officer (although who in their right mind would automatically believe an unidentified voice at 02:30 in the morning anyway?), and there was no time for her to react between his verbal command and his shot.
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Fly320s:
Well, that could change things. I'm not sure how reliable an 8 year old witness is, though.
Reasonable doubt. But I fully expect the other relatives will press the kid to change the story to emphasize the officer's culpability.
"Are you sure you saw her raise the gun? Absolutely positive? You could be set for life and never have to work, ever, if she didn't. Now (use nephew's name), it couldn't be what you saw was her just going to scratch her nose, right?"
Pressure along those lines, "mind doctoring" a kid...
But as a former 8-year-old, I think the kid would tell the truth "right off the bat" if he weren't guilty about something himself.
I think that's what Terry would have done, back in 1947AD. =D
Terry
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If the victim pointed a gun at the cop (not knowing he was a cop, one would assume) that changes a lot.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/10/15/fort-worth-woman-killed-by-officer-heard-noises-outside-drew-gun-nephew-told-authorities/
Doesn't change my thoughts at all. She was in her home and responding rationally to a perceived threat.
The police officer was in the wrong COMPLETELY in this instance and deserves to be in jail for a very long time. (Since we won't give murder the proper punishment.)
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If the victim pointed a gun at the cop (not knowing he was a cop, one would assume) that changes a lot.
In this case, I don't think it does, but I figure some would and it will be interesting to see how this is dealt with in court.
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If the victim pointed a gun at the cop (not knowing he was a cop, one would assume) that changes a lot.
How? Why?
The cop was where he had no right to be. The woman was where she had every right to be.
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I’ve done welfare checks you don’t skulk around the backyard like a prowler
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IMO, saying the the woman having a gun changes things ALMOST gets to the point that burglars could claim self defense when they break in or are trespassing. As stated by others, the officer didn't have any reason to go around to the back yard. The legal question of whether he had a right to be back there is something that would be interesting for the court to deal with. This wasn't a search warrant or a hot pursuit. It was a welfare check.
That doesn't even get to the odd tactic of shouting commands to someone on the other side of a closed window instead of just moving to the side or heading back to the front door. If those windows were double pane glass, she might not even be able to hear him.
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Her pointing a gun at the cop may explain why he shot (assuming it was even intentional), but it in no way justifies it.
If he had clearly identified himself as a police officer first maybe, but skulking around the back yard then yelling and shooting at the same time doesn’t a good shoot make in my book.
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I’ve done welfare checks you don’t skulk around the backyard like a prowler
I'm guessing it depends on department SOPs. Are cops authorized to enter a backyard during a non-criminal investigation?
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If he had clearly identified himself as a police officer first maybe, but skulking around the back yard then yelling and shooting at the same time doesn’t a good shoot make in my book.
If someone didn't identify themselves as a cop, I would treat them as a criminal. Also a home invader yelling "This is the police" is not out of the question. I haven't seen anything on the lighting situation, but if there were only inside lights on, he saw her clear as a bell, and she likely wouldn't have known what was going on outside. Quite possibly would never have seen him before he shot.
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I’ve done welfare checks you don’t skulk around the backyard like a prowler
I did the exact same back when I was in Fire/EMS. Lots of knocking and ringing at the front door. Only if there was no response would we start looking in the ground-level windows, trying ground-level doors, looking for things like piled up mail, papers or packages at the front door and talking to any nearby neighbors. On occasion, we would activate lights/siren to see if that woke anybody up or some other response. We actually did find a few people who had expired at home and no one noticed, or someone had fallen and could not get to the door or to a phone. Absent an emergency happening right in front of our eyes, we would always call the local PD if a forcible entry had to be made.
I myself have had a firearm in my hands inside my home while waiting to see if that bump in the night repeated itself such that I had to do something about it. Until this case, I never even thought of the possibility that the local PD would shoot me through a window.
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Donut Operator had the right of it.
If two cops responded, one should have gone around back and waited. The other should have pounded loudly and repeatedly on the front door or window and announced. If the bad guy squirts out the back then there is someone to apprehend them. If the good guy responds no one gets shot.
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If someone didn't identify themselves as a cop, I would treat them as a criminal. Also a home invader yelling "This is the police" is not out of the question. I haven't seen anything on the lighting situation, but if there were only inside lights on, he saw her clear as a bell, and she likely wouldn't have known what was going on outside. Quite possibly would never have seen him before he shot.
Plus, he was shining a tactical light through the window. She wouldn't have seen anything and likely didn't hear anything.
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I'm guessing it depends on department SOPs. Are cops authorized to enter a backyard during a non-criminal investigation?
Don't they need a warrant to start running around on someone's property? Most especially without attempting to contact the resident first. Just being a cop is not an automatic pass to search around people's back yards. I don't even care if it was a criminal investigation.
IMO, it is especially bad since there was an open door and they hadn't made any attempt to announce themselves. If the purpose was to catch someone coming out the back door, why shine the tactical lights all over the place and into the window? He wasn't thinking at all.
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There's a saying that bad cases make bad law. This might end up being just such a case. Can an officer go to the backyard to look through windows on a well-check? Can an officer fire into a building at an unidentified person who has a weapon? Must an officer identify himself before issuing commands? If the officer is not in a legal position, can he still claim self-defense? If the officer is trespassing and can use self defense here, can the next criminal/killer validly make the same claim? God, this is a legal hornet's nest...
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I don't know if those questions need to be answered or not. It is really just bad judgement leading to the officer shooting a woman through the window of a home. It doesn't have to go any further. Would the officer's lawyer bring up some of that? I don't know.
Some of those questions are mine. How much leeway are officers given in these situations. The answer sometimes seems to be "whatever they can get away with". When I see this stuff in these stories, I assume it is common.
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Did he know it was just a welfare check, or did dispatch screw up the call and he thought it was a crime scene? (we don't know that yet)
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There's a saying that bad cases make bad law. This might end up being just such a case. Can an officer go to the backyard to look through windows on a well-check? Can an officer fire into a building at an unidentified person who has a weapon? Must an officer identify himself before issuing commands? If the officer is not in a legal position, can he still claim self-defense? If the officer is trespassing and can use self defense here, can the next criminal/killer validly make the same claim? God, this is a legal hornet's nest...
I believe the saying is "Hard cases make bad law"
This is only a hard case if we want to give police officers even more leeway in abridging the rights of the people. He had no right or cause to be in that backyard acting like a prowler. At every opportunity, he and his partner did the wrong thing. At no point does any of their actions seem rational*- if they were planning to catch an intruder, the officer in the rear ought not be announcing his presence with a powerful flashlight. If they were planning on a "dynamic entry", why did they split up? If this were an actual welfare check, why didn't they knock on the door?
Further, the police officer made no effort to defuse the situation, just immediately started with the "Hands <BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM> up!" (Only a slight exaggeration, given that less than a second passed before he started shooting after shouting orders without even identifying himself at a window where he had no idea if he had been heard.)
This isn't a hard case. This is a stupid person who should never have been a police officer and he and the department will likely pay for it.
The officers' best defense is that they were bungling fools. And murdered a woman defending herself, her nephew, and her home because of it.
*While, from best reporting, the actions of the murdered woman seem completely rational and justified.
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Did he know it was just a welfare check, or did dispatch screw up the call and he thought it was a crime scene? (we don't know that yet)
Not that I'm trying to defend the officer, but this was something I alluded to in my first post in this topic. I'm very curious about how the call was transmitted to the field, and if there is some standard code for it that may or may not have been followed. I just don't get how "welfare check" (especially after reading Millcreek's hands on summary) would cause responding officers to go into default "get the bad guy" mode.
Again, not trying to defend the cop, but wondering if the department might not have some small procedural liability here.
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Not that I'm trying to defend the officer, but this was something I alluded to in my first post in this topic. I'm very curious about how the call was transmitted to the field, and if there is some standard code for it that may or may not have been followed. I just don't get how "welfare check" (especially after reading Millcreek's hands on summary) would cause responding officers to go into default "get the bad guy" mode.
Again, not trying to defend the cop, but wondering if the department might not have some small procedural liability here.
I agree with you on that. It is one of those things we just don't know yet. I don't know if it would change the verdict, but it might help explain why they did what they did.
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If we assume for a moment that the press has gotten this all right, with no bias, fact changing, etc., I predict that the prosecution will work on the same theory they did with the Dallas case. Officer in wrong place fired an unwarranted shot causing a death. Defense is going to blame everyone from the department not giving proper training to the woman for pointing a semi automatic death machine at someone outside without trying to even figure out who it is. The defense will scream self defense over and over. Defense will argue that a trespass is irrelevant, that anyone who draws a gun on a cop deserves to get shot.
Just my guess...
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. . . Also a home invader yelling "This is the police" is not out of the question. . . .
A few years back there WERE a number of home invasions reported in both the Austin and Houston areas where exactly this happened. IIRC, some of the thugs even had T-shirts with the word "POLICE" prominently displayed - perfect to make the targeted victim hesitate just long enough for the home invader(s) to have their way.
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A few years back there WERE a number of home invasions reported in both the Austin and Houston areas where exactly this happened. IIRC, some of the thugs even had T-shirts with the word "POLICE" prominently displayed - perfect to make the targeted victim hesitate just long enough for the home invader(s) to have their way.
A long history of that.
Shades of the St. Valentine's day massacre in 1929. The hit team came in as cops.
To complete the illusion for any witnesses...
"Witnesses saw the fake police leading the other men at gunpoint out of the garage after the shooting."
"To give the appearance that everything was under control, the men in street clothes came out with their hands up, prodded by the two uniformed policemen."
(Wiki thereon.)
Terry
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A few years back there WERE a number of home invasions reported in both the Austin and Houston areas where exactly this happened. IIRC, some of the thugs even had T-shirts with the word "POLICE" prominently displayed - perfect to make the targeted victim hesitate just long enough for the home invader(s) to have their way.
Which is why I support full uniforms for police officers, which should be controlled items, much like military uniforms.
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Too many police officers seem to dress casually with very informal identifiers.
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Of course, everyone with velcro "POLICE" patches on their person MUST be assumed to be an officer even if you can't see them because they are shining 600 lumens in your eyes.
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If we assume for a moment that the press has gotten this all right, with no bias, fact changing, etc., I predict that the prosecution will work on the same theory they did with the Dallas case. Officer in wrong place fired an unwarranted shot causing a death. Defense is going to blame everyone from the department not giving proper training to the woman for pointing a semi automatic death machine at someone outside without trying to even figure out who it is. The defense will scream self defense over and over. Defense will argue that a trespass is irrelevant, that anyone who draws a gun on a cop deserves to get shot.
Just my guess...
I was wondering if they would go with the negligent discharge to keep it at a manslaughter charge.
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Too many police officers seem to dress casually with very informal identifiers.
I see that in my little podunk town here. Kinda like they want to be tacticool. They all dress in your standard Fed attire of tactical khakis and navy blue polos. Even the guys staking out the speed traps on either side of town.
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Not that I'm trying to defend the officer, but this was something I alluded to in my first post in this topic. I'm very curious about how the call was transmitted to the field, and if there is some standard code for it that may or may not have been followed. I just don't get how "welfare check" (especially after reading Millcreek's hands on summary) would cause responding officers to go into default "get the bad guy" mode.
Again, not trying to defend the cop, but wondering if the department might not have some small procedural liability here.
Apparently the call was NOT dispatched as a welfare check.
https://www.newser.com/story/281936/cop-who-killed-texas-woman-wasnt-doing-welfare-check.html
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/16/us/police-response-fort-worth-shooting/index.html
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https://www.fwweekly.com/2022/12/15/aaron-dean-found-guilty-on-manslaughter-charges/?utm_source=ground.news&utm_medium=referral
Officer found guilty of manslaughter. Sentencing hasn't happened yet.
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A result like this is the only way to get the attention of police trainers so cops don't do stupid stuff like this in the future. He got off easy with manslaughter especially compared to the cop in Minnesota.
That said, the idea of a cop trying to challenge someone through a closed window is idiotic.
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Thanks for the update!
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Yes, thanks for posting the update.
I know it is just a defense attorney doing their job, but this sort of statement ticks me off especially considering the circumstances.
During the defense attorney’s closing statements in which he portrayed Dean as acting within the norms of policing, lawyer Robert Gill told jurors that no one has the right to point a firearm at a peace officer.
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I know it is just a defense attorney doing their job, but this sort of statement ticks me off especially considering the circumstances.
During the defense attorney’s closing statements in which he portrayed Dean as acting within the norms of policing, lawyer Robert Gill told jurors that no one has the right to point a firearm at a peace officer.
I would like to hope that a jury in Texas got a big chuckle out of that statement.
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Looks like about 12 years prison time.
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I wonder if the department has insisted upon the use of lawyer triggers.
Heavy trigger pull.
So, you know what happens? The cops take up the slack, and then twitchBANG!
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I wonder if the department has insisted upon the use of lawyer triggers.
Heavy trigger pull.
So, you know what happens? The cops take up the slack, and then twitchBANG!
Rule 3.
Keep booger hook off the bang switch until ready to bang.
If you are prepping slack out of the trigger, you better be justified to shoot.
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"{twitch}, bang, what a hang, your daddy just shot poor me" - Jimi Hendrix