Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Ben on December 16, 2019, 11:35:31 AM
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This boondoggle hasn't been in the news for a while. They apparently just signed a thirty year contract to build and maintain rails. THIRTY. YEARS.
For a bunch of "progressives", they sure don't seem to be aware of the recent speedy progression of technology. Thirty years is a ridiculously long time in that regard. By the time this contract ends, this bullet train will be a quaint antique.
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-12-16/the-federal-standoff-on-california-bullet-train-is-getting-deeper
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WTF?
I thought that mess had been unceremoniously killed after sucking down vast amounts of resources for absolutely ZERO progress...
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This boondoggle hasn't been in the news for a while. They apparently just signed a thirty year contract to build and maintain rails. THIRTY. YEARS.
For a bunch of "progressives", they sure don't seem to be aware of the recent speedy progression of technology. Thirty years is a ridiculously long time in that regard. By the time this contract ends, this bullet train will be a quaint antique.
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-12-16/the-federal-standoff-on-california-bullet-train-is-getting-deeper
What sort of techological advance do you imagine will happen in the next thiry years that will make a high-speed train obsolete?
This looks short-sighted to me. What happens in 30 years if the contract does not get renewed? It will take another 5+ years before the first train starts operations, so that leaves 25 years of use. I don't think the State can repay their costs with only 25 years of service.
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What sort of techological advance do you imagine will happen in the next thiry years that will make a high-speed train obsolete?
(https://www.thansyn.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/blog-2.jpg)
With every major manufacturer wanting to go to electric cars now, that for one. This train was supposed to reduce traffic and pollution by getting people places faster and cleaner, but it is still a train to nowhere. It will take the 30 years just to get an LA to SFO track laid, and that's if they're efficient and avoid eminent domain lawsuits. Otherwise, everywhere they plan on it going now still requires alternative transportation to final destinations. Cars and planes will still be faster, as will autonomous buses and whatever other vehicles they come up with that can use the pre-exisiting infrastructure that cars use now.
We went from computers that didn't even have a monitor, to smart phones in a little over 30 years. I couldn't tell you what might pop up as other better alternatives by 2050. Might be large autonomous rotary aircraft, hovercraft, or Jetsons air cars. :)
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What sort of techological advance do you imagine will happen in the next thiry years that will make a high-speed train obsolete?
This looks short-sighted to me. What happens in 30 years if the contract does not get renewed? It will take another 5+ years before the first train starts operations, so that leaves 25 years of use. I don't think the State can repay their costs with only 25 years of service.
This. High speed rail is not even modern technology. The first Japanese shinkansen trains started running in 1964. The ones running now have obviously been running for decades. This is like Apollo-era technology. Just because we can't do it in America doesn't mean it's hard.
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“If they approve that contract, it will put the Legislature in a position where it will have very little to say about what happens next, which is exactly why they are trying to do it,” said one key staffer.
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In 30 years we might have autonomous cars and buses, but we won't have autonomous aircraft. And that blimp is just ridiculous. It is designed for heavy lift, not passenger transport. It is cumbersome and slow.
One of the key features of high speed trains is the high speed part. No self-driving car will ever do that.
So, even though California is jacked up in so many ways, a high-speed train could actually work there. It won't, because California, but it could.
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In 30 years we might have autonomous cars and buses, but we won't have autonomous aircraft. And that blimp is just ridiculous. It is designed for heavy lift, not passenger transport. It is cumbersome and slow.
One of the key features of high speed trains is the high speed part. No self-driving car will ever do that.
So, even though California is jacked up in so many ways, a high-speed train could actually work there. It won't, because California, but it could.
The blimp was a joke.
High speed rail is still a boondoggle in CA. Who is going to use it? A few hundred people who might need to go between LA and SFO for work? If that section ever gets built. Right now it's just going to farm communities if this first test section ever gets done.
They would be better off skipping long distance high speed rail and creating more ways to take a train or whatever into big cities from all the outlying places people are moving to so they can afford a house. There's tons of people doing 2-4 hour commutes one way in LA type traffic. Shorter run mass transit with multiple daily trips would do more to address what they want to address than creating a train for a relatively small portion of the populace that's going between LA and SFO, and maybe Sacramento.
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You don't spend the money to build the train.
You build the train to spend the money.
You need an excuse to cause money to flow to cronies and this is one way to do it.
It does not matter that there are less-costly options or that the tech might become obsolete. The goal is to shove money into the pockets of the connected.
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You don't spend the money to build the train.
You build the train to spend the money.
You need an excuse to cause money to flow to cronies and this is one way to do it.
It does not matter that there are less-costly options or that the tech might become obsolete. The goal is to shove money into the pockets of the connected.
Exactly. If the decision was simply to move the greatest number of passengers to the greatest number of destinations, buses are #1. The cost is lower by far and they are flexible. They can be moved around to different routes. Most big cities put little effort into their bus system management. It isn't like they will stop building roads once the trains are built.
I always wonder if part of it is urban people want cheaper (someone else paying for it) ways to get from one urban area to another.
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Exactly. If the decision was simply to move the greatest number of passengers to the greatest number of destinations, buses are #1. The cost is lower by far and they are flexible. They can be moved around to different routes. Most big cities put little effort into their bus system management. It isn't like they will stop building roads once the trains are built.
I always wonder if part of it is urban people want cheaper (someone else paying for it) ways to get from one urban area to another.
Buses are for poor, dirty people. Trains are for environmentally conscious Americans, with a tastefully European sensibility. Bless their hearts.
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"Trains are for environmentally conscious Americans, with a tastefully European sensibility. Bless their hearts."
And don't forget Greta. Greta loves trains. Even if she has a decided lack of manners in not showing her appreciation.
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Buses are for poor, dirty people. Trains are for environmentally conscious Americans, with a tastefully European sensibility. Bless their hearts.
Just put train wheels on some buses and call it an "Almost High Speed Train".
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Just put train wheels on some buses and call it an "Almost High Speed Train".
That's called a trolly...
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We don't have to see breakthrough technology in the next few decades for this to be a bad idea. Just the fact that you are committing billions of dollars a year for generations should ring alarm bells. Given this quote from the article, why would you insist on throwing more money at a problem you've proven you have mismanaged, and committing to doing for 30 years?
Under the federal grants, California has to complete 119 miles of rail structures and install track in the Central Valley by 2022, but there is no requirement for electrical power, signals or a maintenance facility.
The work is far behind schedule, and only a third of all the bridges, viaducts and other structures have even started construction. The work was originally supposed to have been completed by 2017 at a cost of $6 billion. Now the cost is set at $10.6 billion.
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If anyone believes that the cost is "only" going to be $10.6 billion..., I have something to sell you...
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Also, this all started in 1996, and AFIK, they still haven't finished the first 30 miles of rail.
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That's called a trolly...
High Speed Trolly!!
They can do some cheap body work and add cross bars to the wheels so the steam locomotive guys can stare at them. Maybe let them use diesel fuel then they can use the diesel to make smoke like the old navy ships. Californians would love that!
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You don't spend the money to build the train.
You build the train to spend the money.
You need an excuse to cause money to flow to cronies and this is one way to do it.
It does not matter that there are less-costly options or that the tech might become obsolete. The goal is to shove money into the pockets of the connected.
Exactly.
The money isn't literally flushed down the drain or heaped on a bonfire - it ends up in someone's pocket. Public works projects are the traditional way for politicians to convert public funds into private profits.
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I would say to add that it converts back to political donations. A few hundred million allocated over there gets a few million back in campaign donations and tips on real estate deals.
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Also, this all started in 1996, and AFIK, they still haven't finished the first 30 miles of rail.
The project is more about lining certain people's pockets than it is about actually laying down rail.
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The project is more about lining certain people's pockets than it is about actually laying down rail.
... just like every other .gov project.
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MechAg94 wisecracked,
They can do some cheap body work and add cross bars to the wheels so the steam locomotive guys can stare at them.
Now that's funny !
Choo-choo Terry, 230RN
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That's called a trolly...
Ding ding ding!
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Ding ding ding!
:lol:
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Do you really want to ride a true high speed rail over track laid down by the lowest bidder in California?
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Do you really want to ride a true high speed rail over track laid down by the lowest bidder in California?
No but I want movie stars and the attendees of the next Climate Change Conference to ride it.
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No but I want movie stars and the attendees of the next Climate Change Conference to ride it.
Right beside all the politicians and movers and shakers that made it happen.
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Who are they going to blame when a high speed train malfunctions and ends up starting a wildfire that kills more people than Cecil B DeMille?
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Who are they going to blame when a high speed train malfunctions and ends up starting a wildfire that kills more people than Cecil B DeMille?
Well duh, Trump of course.
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This could be an interesting comparison: Texas apparently has a high speed rail in the works running from Houston to Dallas.
https://archinect.com/news/article/150175137/planning-for-texas-central-high-speed-rail-continues-apace
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Ding ding ding!
Judy Garland in "Meet Me in St. Louis"? :lol:
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This could be an interesting comparison: Texas apparently has a high speed rail in the works running from Houston to Dallas.
https://archinect.com/news/article/150175137/planning-for-texas-central-high-speed-rail-continues-apace
OMG Texkansen.
I like how they said "upgraded climate control for the extreme heat". It's not for the extreme heat; it gets just as hot in parts of Japan. It's because the AC on those things sucks. I imagine some Texan did a test ride and said "sweet trains, but can you put AC in them? Japanese will put up with climate control that would be considered a public health hazard in the US.
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This could be an interesting comparison: Texas apparently has a high speed rail in the works running from Houston to Dallas.
https://archinect.com/news/article/150175137/planning-for-texas-central-high-speed-rail-continues-apace
I thought I heard mention of that a while back, I didn't know they were close to trying to build it.
(https://archinect.imgix.net/uploads/6a/6a3e57bd957e6292e10580760e513620.jpg?fit=crop&auto=compress%2Cformat&w=514)
If the whole thing is elevated like this picture, it may actually work without interfering so much with the areas it passes through. Back in the 80's/90's the proposal was not like that and would have been a barrier 100's of miles long with a few overpasses. I am also wondering how much property they are trying to eminent domain to build it. Being elevated like that, they might be able to do it like a pipeline right of way. Deer stands in view of the passengers would be neat.
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The Seattle area badly needs another airport. Sea-Tac is close to being maxed out. The Legislature is studying the issue with a goal towards having a new airport ready to receive passengers by 2040 (!). One of the possibilities being looked at is the Moses Lake airport, a former SAC bomber base 180 miles east of Seattle. In order to transport passengers from the west side of Washington to the airport, a high speed passenger train tunneling through the Cascades (!) is being considered. I am pretty sure that the billions of dollars this will cost will remove Moses Lake from the list of airport candidates.
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Judy Garland in "Meet Me in St. Louis"? :lol:
In the song it's actually clang clang clang. I took some liberties to make the joke.
I'll probably be impeached for that.
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In the song it's actually clang clang clang. I took some liberties to make the joke.
I'll probably be impeached for that.
Yes, "Ding! ding! ding!" went the bell. I've had that stupid song stuck in my head all week. :lol:
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. . . I am pretty sure that the billions of dollars this will cost will remove Moses Lake from the list of airport candidates.
Not necessarily - public works projects are perhaps the ideal way of converting public funds into private profits.
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Yes, "Ding! ding! ding!" went the bell. I've had that stupid song stuck in my head all week. :lol:
Me too, it's a small world.