Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Ben on August 26, 2022, 08:18:27 AM
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California will ban the sale of new non-electric vehicles starting in 2035. I wonder what auto manufacturers think of this after all their years of rolling over for any CA law that came out regarding mandatory equipment in gas vehicles, which of course meant that all US vehicles were stuck with the same "improvements" and additional costs.
Or perhaps they will roll over again and (as CA undoubtedly hopes) will cease all gas vehicle production in the US to keep the CA market.
https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/california-ban-gas-powered-cars-electric
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And their power grid can't even handle the current load.
Next up an announcement of a massive increase of taxes on gas among other items and pleads for Fed funding for more windmills and solar panels.
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There will be state-subsidized mass transmit systems implemented. They will encourage workers to live in dorms within happy marching distance of their work places.
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I’m guessing the dealers in Arizona, Nevada and Oregon are rubbing their grubby paws in delight. Unless the are banning registration of 2035 and later model year cars with gas engines, and not just sales within the state.
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I’m guessing the dealers in Arizona, Nevada and Oregon are rubbing their grubby paws in delight. Unless the are banning registration of 2035 and later model year cars with gas engines, and not just sales within the state.
The article seemed to indicate that while no new cars would be sold in the state, people "can keep buying and driving them". So that might be a possibility unless they change the law again.
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perhaps they will roll over again and (as CA undoubtedly hopes) will cease all gas vehicle production in the US to keep the CA market.
CA has been pretty successful throwing it's weight around to get what it wants and it's a big market but I don't think it's that big. They could still sell them in the other 49 states. Especially, as noted, right on the border of CA.
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CA has been pretty successful throwing it's weight around to get what it wants and it's a big market but I don't think it's that big. They could still sell them in the other 49 states. Especially, as noted, right on the border of CA.
It could be. I didn't catch the "buy and drive" until Sumpnz's post.
Still we see what happened with CARB, which was originally CA only. The rest of us could have kept using regular gas cans instead of now having to use "water cans" for a normal pour spout.
Also when diesel regs went into effect in 2006(?). That was pushed by CA EPA. The automakers didn't need to change diesels in the other 49 states, but CA EPA pushed national EPA to hurry the change through, and manufacturers then put out hurried and crap products. I made the mistake of buying the first gen F250 with a DPF. What a horrible and costly mistake.
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Interesting they set the date for 2035 far beyond when any of the current politicians will be held accountable.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FbBYuNfWQAAdtPF?format=jpg&name=900x900)
https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2022/08/26/ho-lee-chit-electric-vehicles-that-supposedly-save-americans-lots-of-money-have-one-very-very-very-expensive-problem-screenshot/
https://www.autoblog.com/2014/01/10/chevy-volt-battery-replacement-cost-34000/
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I don't expect it will be too many years before gas vehicles are banned in the entire country.
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I was in the lawn and landscape industry for 20 years. I remember when the CARB-compliant 2-stroke grass trimmers and blowers came to Michigan.
They were more expensive, less powerful, and had a lifespan half as long as the older equipment. I owned grass trimmers that had catalytic converters, and they clogged easily. I always ended up just drilling a hole through them when that happened.
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I don't expect it will be too many years before gas vehicles are banned in the entire country.
Figure they'll use economic levers for that. Increase the taxes on fuel and start taxing everything (gas and electric) per mile. Rapidly the cost of running gas equipment would be economically nonviable.
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Figure they'll use economic levers for that. Increase the taxes on fuel and start taxing everything (gas and electric) per mile. Rapidly the cost of running gas equipment would be economically nonviable.
I foresee a cottage industry of mileage alteration solutions . . .
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I foresee a cottage industry of felony mileage alteration solutions . . .
FTFY
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I am thinking on multiple stategies. Lo-tech, we have always wanted a draft horse. Next we buy all the 80s chevy pickups we can get our grubby paws on. Hoard gas and look at making ethanol if can get the feed stocks. Also have several mechanical diesels, make biodiesel. Possibly buy a new or near new car or two as close to the ban as possible and run them sparingly.
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I wonder if we'll even be allowed to own cars by the time 2035 rolls around.
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I don't expect it will be too many years before gas vehicles are banned in the entire country.
If that happens, I wonder what people will use for 4WD back-country vehicles. How are people going to get "out in the boonies" to do some hunting, take care of their cattle herds, etc.? :facepalm: [popcorn]
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If that happens, I wonder what people will use for 4WD back-country vehicles. How are people going to get "out in the boonies" to do some hunting, take care of their cattle herds, etc.? :facepalm: [popcorn]
Do you think you will still be allowed to go out in the back country as an average citizen without some sort of special permission?
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I wonder if we'll even be allowed to own cars by the time 2035 rolls around.
Sure
(https://assets3.cbsnewsstatic.com/hub/i/r/2015/05/13/eca6f881-5d9d-4cea-a9b6-057a7acff5b2/thumbnail/640x426/8a012da7433c264d8f3d0f50ac5150bf/fury-road-00253.jpg)
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The trend towards farm consolidation will continue. The haves will afford new tractors. The have nots will move to town for factory work. So much out here in ag hinges on the 30 year old truck that gets used everyday just on the farm, or maybe sits all year until the one time it is needed. Batteries not so good at that. I guess being able to fix anything will be handy.
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Higher cost for electric vehicles - wonder how many politicians have stock in Chinese mining or battery companies? Being unaffordable for many, more money will have to be spent on public transportation - with all the opportunity for profit to a select few which that implies. Plus, with all the added electronics, don't be surprised if these will be "smart" vehicles that cali.gov can disable remotely for "traffic management" or other issues. Driving out to off road or rural or wilderness areas - where you're hard to monitor? Are you kidding? And with the CA grid inadequate, picture plenty of restrictions on charging. CA politicians clearly want people to stay close to home. This mandate goes a lot farther than just "cleaner air."
It won't surprise me if CA tries again (as they did during the Joseph "Gray" Davis governorship) to try and get states as far away as Indiana to reconfigure their grids to feed more juice into California.
I've come to the conclusion that lefty politicians have seen and read a lot of dystopian movies and books (The Hunger Games, Soylent Green, 1984, etc.) and have come to regard them as a blueprint for the future rather than as a warning against what might happen.
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Or this could be a feel good circle jerk by the CA Legislature that will never be implemented 'ala their microstamping law.
Or maybe they'll finally build some nuke plants.
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Or maybe they'll finally build some nuke plants.
You're drunk.
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Or this could be a feel good circle jerk by the CA Legislature that will never be implemented 'ala their microstamping law.
Or maybe they'll finally build some nuke plants.
The whole point of the microstamping law was to effectively ban by other means any new guns coming into Caili since no one has ever actually gotten it to work properly and they know that.
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The article seemed to indicate that while no new cars would be sold in the state, people "can keep buying and driving them". So that might be a possibility unless they change the law again.
And they would neeeever change their mind and ban them after the fact *coughsks*
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I don't expect it will be too many years before gas vehicles are banned in the entire country.
I wonder if someone makes a replica Red Barchetta.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FbBYuNfWQAAdtPF?format=jpg&name=900x900)
https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2022/08/26/ho-lee-chit-electric-vehicles-that-supposedly-save-americans-lots-of-money-have-one-very-very-very-expensive-problem-screenshot/
https://www.autoblog.com/2014/01/10/chevy-volt-battery-replacement-cost-34000/
I would be curious if they are recycling all the used batteries. I would think so, but I never hear much about that.
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The trend towards farm consolidation will continue. The haves will afford new tractors. The have nots will move to town for factory work. So much out here in ag hinges on the 30 year old truck that gets used everyday just on the farm, or maybe sits all year until the one time it is needed. Batteries not so good at that. I guess being able to fix anything will be handy.
So, in that scenario, batteries on Electric Farm Truck are shot after 3 years, because they hardly ever get used. Farmer Jim and his college kid son studying electrical engineering rig up a gas powered generator to juice it up enough to run. Weld up a nice cabinet in the bed for it. Write it up for Farm Journal. (https://www.farmjournal.com/).
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Apparently under current Virginia law, they now have to also ban gas vehicles in 2035:
https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/08/27/gov-youngkin-vows-to-fight-ridiculous-edict-that-ties-va-to-califs-upcoming-gas-powered-vehicle-ban/
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Monkey see monkey do
It boggles my mind they would do this
"In 2021, Governor Northam and the far-left controlled General Assembly signed a law that binds Virginia to California's emission vehicle regulations, which, among other thingsboggles , bans the sale of gas-powered cars in Virginia by 2035," a spokesperson for Virginia Attorney General Jason Miyares' office said in a statement to Fox 5 DC.
California gas car ban will apply to Virginia, too, due to 2021 law
https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/california-gas-car-ban-will-apply-to-virginia-too-due-to-2021-law?intcmp=tw_fnc
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Whoops, sorry Ben
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If California doesn't figure out their water shortage issues it isn't going to matter much anyway.
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If California doesn't figure out their water shortage issues it isn't going to matter much anyway.
I think you mean if Cali doesn't get the rest of the country to pay to fix their water shortage issues
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I think you mean if Caili doesn't get the rest of the country to pay to fix their water shortage issues
More or less :rofl:
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Hopefully Virginia will fix this. The sad part is that we have to elect worthless republicans to do it because they are slightly less worthless than the others. People always talk about states seceding. All backwards. States come together and show Cali the door. Western states need to build nuke plants and sell the energy to California at extortionate rates. Patrol the border and deport Cali residents found living in free states.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FbBYuNfWQAAdtPF?format=jpg&name=900x900)
https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2022/08/26/ho-lee-chit-electric-vehicles-that-supposedly-save-americans-lots-of-money-have-one-very-very-very-expensive-problem-screenshot/
https://www.autoblog.com/2014/01/10/chevy-volt-battery-replacement-cost-34000/
Whomever posted that is either lying, or being raped by a dealer.
1st: That VIN comes back to a 2012 Volt, and that battery Part number has been discontinued and replaced for some time. A dealer would know that when ginning up a quote.
2nd: The OEM drive battery for a 2012 Volt is $6879.60 (https://www.gmpartsonline.net/oem-parts/gm-battery-assembly-20979876?c=Zz1oeWJyaWQtY29tcG9uZW50cyZzPWJhdHRlcnkmbD04Jm49QXNzZW1ibGllcyBQYWdlJmE9Y2hldnJvbGV0Jm89dm9sdCZ5PTIwMTImdD1iYXNlJmU9MS00bC1sNC1lbGVjdHJpYy1nYXM%3D). Aftermarket options are available for less than $5500 (https://www.besthybridbatteries.com/products/chevy-volt-2011-2012-hybrid-battery)
It looks like they are hitting them up for about 10 hrs labor, which seems about right to R+R the drive battery.
ETA: The other obvious option is the dealer doesn't want to work on this 10 year old car and they found some place to sell them a New Old Stock version of the discontinued battery at an inflated price rather than the current part number so as to convince the owner to *expletive deleted*ck off.
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From the autoblog article:
We called up Keyes Chevrolet in Los Angeles and were quoted a broad price range of between $3,400 and $34,000 to replace a "drive motor replacement battery" in a 2012 Volt. Tellingly, perhaps, the dealer we spoke with was not sure what replacing a 'drive motor replacement battery' (and the 'Grade B' version, at that) entails, and told us we'd have to bring a Volt in to see what's wrong with the pack to get a real estimate. We got the same confusion and numbers to replace the battery from Berger Chevrolet in Grand Rapids, Michigan. We asked GM to clarify what this $34,000 charge includes, but that information was not forthcoming.
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No gasoline cars?
Big deal.
Get a diesel.
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The trend towards farm consolidation will continue.
By 2035, Bill Gates will own all the farms.
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And they would neeeever change their mind and ban them after the fact *coughsks*
They will need to close the used car "loophole".
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They will need to close the used car "loophole".
Cash for clunkers went a long way to doing that (it added a zero to the cost of used cars.)
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Cash for clunkers went a long way to doing that (it added a zero to the cost of used cars.)
That effect was worked out of the used car market after several years. We waited until 2014 to buy our minivan (2008 Sienna) specifically because we were waiting for prices to return to sanity after Cash for Clunkers. Used car prices were mostly reasonable until the supply chain disruption from the Covid shutdowns.
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Cash for clunkers went a long way to doing that (it added a zero to the cost of used cars.)
It also had people trading in for F150s instead of the priuseses.
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That effect was worked out of the used car market after several years. We waited until 2014 to buy our minivan (2008 Sienna) specifically because we were waiting for prices to return to sanity after Cash for Clunkers. Used car prices were mostly reasonable until the supply chain disruption from the Covid shutdowns.
I don't see how that can be claimed; used car prices never came back down, then the covid nonsense added a second zero to their price. I sold a 2019 Honda CRV for more than the note was worth. Bought in 2019 new, had to part with it a year later for reasons and it had appreciated in value. Bonkers.
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I don't see how that can be claimed; used car prices never came back down, then the covid nonsense added a second zero to their price. I sold a 2019 Honda CRV for more than the note was worth. Bought in 2019 new, had to part with it a year later for reasons and it had appreciated in value. Bonkers.
The program lasted for less than 2 months in 2009. You can’t seriously be telling me that 11 years later it was still significantly influencing used car pricing which then compounded the supply chain disruptions. The vast majority of the cars taken off the market would have been scrapped by then anyway and within 5 years the new cars sold in the interim mostly refilled the used car market. Hence why we bought that van in 2014 and not 2013 when my 4th was born and we really needed it.
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By 2035, Bill Gates will own all the farms.
I didn't say that at all or ever. His companies own farms as investments, not some vast conspiracy. It is reported that he owns about 260,000 acres or a little over 400 sections. A decent sized county. ZOMG Bill Gates is going to starve us all go the non stop conspiracy posts.
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Washington and Mass looking to follow
Monkey see monkey do
Two More States Follow California's Lead in Banning Sales of New Gas-Powered Cars by 2035
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/leahbarkoukis/2022/08/29/gas-powered-car-ban-n2612354
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Gee, that worked out real well
Scottish police switch over to electric cars. Great, except someone forgot something, like how to charge them :facepalm: :rofl:
They're resorting to things like running cords out of office windows charging one car at a time. :facepalm: :rofl:
Scottish Police Electric Cars STOP Working… Guess Why! 😂 😂 😂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKhbQJ-oL0U
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Oregon just announced today. So as of 2035, no new ICE cars can be sold on the West Coast: California, Oregon, and Washington.
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Oregon just announced today. So as of 2035, no new ICE cars can be sold on the West Coast: California, Oregon, and Washington.
Well, at least this is unlikely to force me into a BEV until at least 2045. I don’t expect to buy a car less than 10 years old for most of my life. Hopefully by then heads can be extracted from asses and prevent these regulations from going into effect.
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Are hybrids okay, or they have to be all-electric?
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If California doesn't figure out their water shortage issues it isn't going to matter much anyway.
The Colorado and San Juan and Salt Rivers were all raging over the week I spent in the assorted mountain ranges and drainages that fed these systems. All the tributary streams were running, and the rivers were all chocolate with sediment from the high flow. Downtown Moab was flooded and under water just a week ago. Many businesses were closed due to water damage. Some say the Colorado is always chocolate silted... but add in the same condition to the San Juan (which is often dry) and the Salt (which is usually clear) and it indicates considerable increased water flow, due to a successful southwest summer monsoon weather season.
Droughts don't last forever, and the Southwest has been in the grips of a good decade-long drought. Policymakers are driving Lake Mead to the point of failure in order to use it as a mechanism to reshape southwest (and possibly national?) water policy, while the upstream reservoirs are at average or above average capacity for this time of year.
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My wife and I are in our mid-60's, and she thinks we will have at least one electric vehicle before we are too old to keep driving.
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The Colorado and San Juan and Salt Rivers were all raging over the week I spent in the assorted mountain ranges and drainages that fed these systems. All the tributary streams were running, and the rivers were all chocolate with sediment from the high flow. Downtown Moab was flooded and under water just a week ago. Many businesses were closed due to water damage. Some say the Colorado is always chocolate silted... but add in the same condition to the San Juan (which is often dry) and the Salt (which is usually clear) and it indicates considerable increased water flow, due to a successful southwest summer monsoon weather season.
Droughts don't last forever, and the Southwest has been in the grips of a good decade-long drought. Policymakers are driving Lake Mead to the point of failure in order to use it as a mechanism to reshape southwest (and possibly national?) water policy, while the upstream reservoirs are at average or above average capacity for this time of year.
Even without the drought California will continue to have issues with not enough water. They have for decades refused to increase storage capacity and have even undamed some reservoirs. All the while the population has steadily increased. Without major changes in state policy California will either eventually become unlivable for it's current population or will rely on federal action that will cost us taxpayers billions.
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Californians Told Not to Charge Electric Cars Days After Gas Car Sales Ban
https://www.newsweek.com/californians-told-not-charge-electric-cars-gas-car-sales-ban-1738398
"During a Flex Alert, consumers are urged to reduce energy use from 4-9 p.m. when the system is most stressed because demand for electricity remains high and there is less solar energy available," the release said.
The top conservation actions are to set thermostats to 78 degrees or higher to reduce air conditioner use, avoid using large appliances and charging electric vehicles, and turn off unnecessary lights, it said.
:facepalm: :rofl:
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Californians Told Not to Charge Electric Cars Days After Gas Car Sales Ban
https://www.newsweek.com/californians-told-not-charge-electric-cars-gas-car-sales-ban-1738398
:facepalm: :rofl:
That state is so *expletive deleted*ing stupid...
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To follow, and I guess it can go here, NPR says that environmentalists are the ones who push for nuclear power.
https://www.npr.org/2022/08/30/1119904819/nuclear-power-environmentalists-california-germany-japan?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_term=nprnews&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr
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That state is so *expletive deleted*ing stupid...
You don't know the half of it.
They're going to demolish hydropower dams, too - claiming they produce "insignificant" power, hurt fish, and would have huge costs to bring up to "environmental" standards.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/major-hurdle-cleared-plan-demolish-california-dams-83119729
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You don't know the half of it.
They're going to demolish hydropower dams, too - claiming they produce "insignificant" power, hurt fish, and would have huge costs to bring up to "environmental" standards.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/major-hurdle-cleared-plan-demolish-california-dams-83119729
They're also going to kill the Central Valley farming (where a significant portion of US food comes from) by shutting down wells and restricting surface water. I was talking to my aunt a couple of weeks ago, and she said they may lose their water next year, which means all 300+ acres of their oranges die.
Apparently within the governor's office and the legislature, there is a powerful environmental contingent that is talking about reverting nearly half the valley back to "a natural environment". If they do that, the food riots will be fun.
https://youtu.be/P8DQlqemkcQ
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Going after agriculture is the correct thing to do though. 90% of California's water use is for agriculture, and the reason is completely unrealistic water contracts for agriculture. Almonds alone use more water than the whole city of LA. There's no way to solve the water problem without addressing the agricultural waste (sorry, that's what it is), because it's a problem created by agricultural waste. One would hope they would approach it in a reasoned and intelligent way, without corruption or favoritism, but you can guess how it will really go down.
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There's no doubt that big agri-business is a problem. Some of these corporations chase popular crops in insane ways. For a while walnuts were the big thing, and the big corps planted tens of thousands of acres of them. Then when the prices dropped from over production, they went to almonds, ripping out perfectly good walnut trees to plant the new crop, and yeah, almonds take a lot of water.
Some of the wells in the West valley were being drilled to 2000 feet to get enough water. That's like a $1million well. Those wells draw down shallower groundwater, and then individual family farms go dry and they can't afford the deeper wells.
However the state response isn't a graduated one, it's using a catapult to swing the pendulum the other way and destroy more than "cash crops" like almonds. And lets not forget that CA lets billions and billions of gallons of fresh water bypass farms and dump into the ocean to "save" the Delta Smelt, which state biologists can't even find anymore.
Plus we can go back to the environmentalists kiboshing the one dam (I forget the name now) that the state tried to build in the 70s, which would have nearly eliminated the present water shortages. In many ways the water situation in CA is the same as the nuclear energy situation.
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France isn't going to have electricity shortages:
https://www.france24.com/en/france/20220902-france-to-restart-all-nuclear-reactors-by-winter-amid-energy-crunch
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France isn't going to have electricity shortages:
https://www.france24.com/en/france/20220902-france-to-restart-all-nuclear-reactors-by-winter-amid-energy-crunch
Soon, to keep the EV thing going, our democrats and environmentalists will insist we follow suit, stating that they have been pushing for nuclear all along and that it's the maga semi-fascist extremists that have been holding it up.
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Meanwhile, to deal with an expected spell of hot weather, California is telling owners of electric vehicles NOT to recharge them.
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Does the ICE prohibition after 2035 also include hybrid cars with ICE/battery?
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How long until California bans electric car batteries because of the environmental damage that cobalt and lithium mining causes?
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How long until California bans electric car batteries because of the environmental damage that cobalt and lithium mining causes?
NIMBY. They'll care when most of it is not mined halfway around the world by African child workers owned by Chinese corporations.
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^ Agreed.
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Does the ICE prohibition after 2035 also include hybrid cars with ICE/battery?
From what I understand, hybrids are banned as well.
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NIMBY. They'll care when most of it is not mined halfway around the world by African child workers owned by Chinese corporations that funnel money into politicians' pockets (or the pockets of family members and donors.)
Added what you forgot at the end.
I remember during the blackout days under Gov. "Gray" Davis, California tried to get more energy by demanding Nevada send them all they needed . . . and if Nevada then ran short, they could get power from Utah. If Utah in turn needed more, they could draw on Colorado's grid. And so on and so on, with California proposing they get control of power distribution all the way back to Indiana.
This cockamamie plan didn't work . . . and California didn't built the plants they needed . . . if they HAD started back then, they'd be in good shape today. But they didn't.
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Cali: You need to buy a $60,000 + car because we're banning gas powered cars
Also Cali: Don't plug it in.
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Banning gasoline cars - it just won't work. It is a law that will run headlong into the facts of life. Perhaps in some form it will survive, but greatly weakened.
Has California eliminated all T12 fluorescent tubes? Where I work, we still receive regular shipments of them, and people still buy them. We still sell 75-watt A19s, though they're coated, or rough-service.
If the fed.gov can't manage to eliminate ancient, T12 bulbs and ballasts, I don't see states really getting rid of all gas-engine vehicles.
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While California pushes forward, China and India do absolutely nothing.
California's response?
WE GOTTA DO MORE! MORE!!! BAN COOKING! IT CAUSES FUMES THAT DO SOMETHING!
2088 NBC Nightly News
Today it was announced that California's population has dropped below 1 million people. Since super secret hyper environmental controls were instituted in 2050 California's population has declined steadily.
California's Secretary of Holodomor said in news conference that still more needs to be done to ensure that all Californians are ensured a satisfactory life.
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Note to self: Invest heavily in walking shoe companies
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Added what you forgot at the end.
I remember during the blackout days under Gov. "Gray" Davis, California tried to get more energy by demanding Nevada send them all they needed . . . and if Nevada then ran short, they could get power from Utah. If Utah in turn needed more, they could draw on Colorado's grid. And so on and so on, with California proposing they get control of power distribution all the way back to Indiana.
This cockamamie plan didn't work . . . and California didn't built the plants they needed . . . if they HAD started back then, they'd be in good shape today. But they didn't.
That's pretty much what they're doing with water. Lake Mead is drying up, states like Nevada, Utah, and Arizona are facing rationing -- but California isn't. Yet California isn't pushing to demolish dams in the other states, from which they get their water. Only in their own state.
"Charity begins at home." California should be building dams and reservoirs, not demolishing them.
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Lets understand this problem with some facts.
In 2020, California consumed 1380.7 trillion BTU's of motor gasoline in the transportation sector [cite (https://www.eia.gov/state/seds/sep_fuel/html/fuel_mg.html)].
In 2021 California produced 193,569 GW-hr of electrical power. [cite (https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/california-electricity-data/electric-generation-capacity-and-energy)]
The average electric car kWh per 100 miles (kWh/100 mi) is 34.6. This works out as 0.346kWh per mile. [cite (https://ecocostsavings.com/average-electric-car-kwh-per-mile/)]
Gasoline contains about 120k btu per gallon. A 30 MPG car will therefore consume 4000 BTUth per mile.
California gasoline consumption equates to 3.5x1011 miles driven, assuming 30MPG. For average electric cars to travel this distance, they would consume 1.2x1011 kw-hr.
1.2x1014 wh-hr / 1.94x1014 ≈ 0.62.
Conclusion: If all gasoline energy used for transportation in California were to be replaced with electrical power (with the above assumptions) the electrical demand from transportation would consume 62% of existing generating capacity.
California will need to massively increase it's electrical generation capacity if this proposal is to work.
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FWIW I did that same math with the whole US last year, and the numbers were pretty similar. We need to add about 75% to our electrical grid to switch to all electric cars.
Couple that with the already rising electrical consumption of most homes and we need to basically double our electrical generation in the next decade to decade and a half.
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Lets understand this problem with some facts.
In 2020, California consumed 1380.7 trillion BTU's of motor gasoline in the transportation sector
<snip>
Conclusion: If all gasoline energy used for transportation in California were to be replaced with electrical power (with the above assumptions) the electrical demand from transportation would consume 62% of existing generating capacity.
California will need to massively increase it's electrical generation capacity if this proposal is to work.
FWIW I did that same math with the whole US last year, and the numbers were pretty similar. We need to add about 75% to our electrical grid to switch to all electric cars.
Couple that with the already rising electrical consumption of most homes and we need to basically double our electrical generation in the next decade to decade and a half.
Given the above, and that electric cars will likely continue to be much more expensive than their ICE equivalents, it makes one wonder if someone wants to make Americans less mobile?
Or do I just need to screw my tinfoil hat on a little tighter?
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Given the above, and that electric cars will likely continue to be much more expensive than their ICE equivalents, it makes one wonder if someone wants to make Americans less mobile?
Or do I just need to screw my tinfoil hat on a little tighter?
There has been a contingent (mostly enviro) wanting that for a long time. No one should live outside of cities. If you live in a city, you should be living in multifamily housing that is tightly packed geographically. That way everything you need (but not necessarily want) to get to is within walking, biking, or public transportation distance.
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California will need to massively increase it's electrical generation capacity if this proposal is to work.
Thank you for doing the math. Given that they aren't going to build a lot of nuke plants, I guess this won't be working.
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There has been a contingent (mostly enviro) wanting that for a long time. No one should live outside of cities. If you live in a city, you should be living in multifamily housing that is tightly packed geographically. That way everything you need (but not necessarily want) to get to is within walking, biking, or public transportation distance.
And much much easier for the "elites" to control.
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Lets understand this problem with some facts.
In 2020, California consumed 1380.7 trillion BTU's of motor gasoline in the transportation sector [cite (https://www.eia.gov/state/seds/sep_fuel/html/fuel_mg.html)].
In 2021 California produced 193,569 GW-hr of electrical power. [cite (https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/california-electricity-data/electric-generation-capacity-and-energy)]
The average electric car kWh per 100 miles (kWh/100 mi) is 34.6. This works out as 0.346kWh per mile. [cite (https://ecocostsavings.com/average-electric-car-kwh-per-mile/)]
Gasoline contains about 120k btu per gallon. A 30 MPG car will therefore consume 4000 BTUth per mile.
California gasoline consumption equates to 3.5x1011 miles driven, assuming 30MPG. For average electric cars to travel this distance, they would consume 1.2x1011 kw-hr.
1.2x1014 wh-hr / 1.94x1014 ≈ 0.62.
Conclusion: If all gasoline energy used for transportation in California were to be replaced with electrical power (with the above assumptions) the electrical demand from transportation would consume 62% of existing generating capacity.
California will need to massively increase it's electrical generation capacity if this proposal is to work.
Thank you for doing the math. Given that they aren't going to build a lot of nuke plants, I guess this won't be working.
They're be banning household AC and put a cap on electricity use next
Dem and Hollywood elites will get an exemption of course
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They're be banning household AC and put a cap on electricity use next
One of the things they are doing is trying to move people away from gas heating to heat pumps, which while efficient, especially in a CA climate, will really knock electricity use up even more, since at least in the parts of CA I was, gas heating was pretty standard.
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One of the things they are doing is trying to move people away from gas heating to heat pumps, which while efficient, especially in a CA climate, will really knock electricity use up even more, since at least in the parts of CA I was, gas heating was pretty standard.
Heat pumps don't work so awesome up here in the winter.
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Heat pumps don't work so awesome up here in the winter.
Same thing here. I have a propane furnace that kicks in around 27deg. I find the heat pump excellent for cooling in this climate though.
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One of the things they are doing is trying to move people away from gas heating to heat pumps, which while efficient, especially in a CA climate, will really knock electricity use up even more, since at least in the parts of CA I was, gas heating was pretty standard.
Makes sense, lets increase the load on an overloaded system even more. :facepalm:
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We put in our wood stove specifically to cut our electric bill in winter. While the heat pump is decent on the typical 40F day, overnight when it dips in to the mid-20’s or anytime we have a cold snap (day after Christmas last year it got down to 5F, and didn’t get above freezing for a week or more) the electric furnace would otherwise have to kick in a we’d get monsterous bills.
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Thank you for doing the math. Given that they aren't going to build a lot of nuke plants, I guess this won't be working.
Of course it will work. California will simple demand that Utah, Nevada, and other states produce more electricity for them to buy.
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I've had a heat pump since I moved into this house in 1993.
I've NEVER liked it for home heating.
Yeah, it "heated" the house, but it was never a warming, comforting heat, so I was always shivering under a blanket or breaking out a supplemental electric heater. And still not liking it.
In 2019 I finally got my pellet stove. My electric bills went down to the point where I just about broke even with the cost of pellets. I think the first couple of years I actually saved a bit.
This year, however, pellet prices are up $1 a bag. That's just enough that it will probably cost me a bit more to heat with pellets.
Know what? I don't care. With the pellet stove going it actually puts out warm heat, not tepid "heat" that's actually feels damned cold because of the air currents.
For the last 3 winters I've actually been comfortable. And that's more important to me than anything else.
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Of course it will work. California will simple demand that Utah, Nevada, and other states produce more electricity for them to buy.
That is Cali's master plan. Get that good clean energy from Nevada that is produced in hydroelectric plants fed by nature's endless bounty of Colorado Rivershed water.......oh wait.
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Of course it will work. California will simple demand that Utah, Nevada, and other states produce more electricity for them to buy share.
For equity of course. Think of all the POC they will be helping by graciously sharing electricity.
EO coming right up.
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They're be banning household AC and put a cap on electricity use next
Did you just make this up, or is there a source for this claim?
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I think that was a prediction, not a statement of fact.
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I think that was a prediction, not a statement of fact.
This
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Did you just make this up, or is there a source for this claim?
The ground work for that is being laid. An increasing number of stories in all sorts of media talking about what an environmental disaster air conditioning has been coupled with "Hey, here's how people in India cope with the heat!"
He's making a prediction.
My prediction is that he's not wrong, and it's not all that far off.
After all, who among us through that, 10 years ago, there would be entire cities in California where you can no longer install any kind of natural gas appliance? Because 10 years ago natural gas was going to save us all because it was such a clean burning fuel!
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Yep
And the reason I said household AC and not AC in general is that there's too many office buildings and other buildings that due to their design would be unusable without it. Office buildings before AC became in general use were designed with open windowed airflow, not so much since. How many office buildings where you can even open a window are there nowadays? That may change if they continue to have their way for newer buildings
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Many residences are being built on the same "no or limited air exchange" thinking as the office buildings. No climate control would mean tearing down houses and rebuilding the regional building styles of the early 20th century.
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Many residences are being built on the same "no or limited air exchange" thinking as the office buildings. No climate control would mean tearing down houses and rebuilding the regional building styles of the early 20th century.
We're sorry, no, you can't rebuild it due to environmental restrictions, you must move to this pod in the city.
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Many residences are being built on the same "no or limited air exchange" thinking as the office buildings. No climate control would mean tearing down houses and rebuilding the regional building styles of the early 20th century.
I was thinking houses hold as in houses most of which still has windows you can open so their AC can go. Failed to include many apt/condo buildings and similar when I referred to office buildings.
And btw I was just making a somewhat sarcastic prediction but lately the lefties seem to be determine to make my sarcasm and satire reality
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Given the above, and that electric cars will likely continue to be much more expensive than their ICE equivalents, it makes one wonder if someone wants to make Americans less mobile?
Or do I just need to screw my tinfoil hat on a little tighter?
Mobility literally is independence and the collectivist b-holes hate that. Dependent neoserfs are what they desire and they are making it happen.
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Yep
And the reason I said household AC and not AC in general is that there's too many office buildings and other buildings that due to their design would be unusable without it. Office buildings before AC became in general use were designed with open windowed airflow, not so much since. How many office buildings where you can even open a window are there nowadays? That may change if they continue to have their way for newer buildings
A couple of years before I retired, the local CA congresswoman insisted we build a new building for our office and move it to UC Santa Barbara, and make it green. It had no AC and was designed with "window circulation", which meant you had to keep upstairs and downstairs office windows open, and then it had skylights that automatically opened after it hit a certain temperature. We also had to keep our office doors open in order for it all to work as intended. It was still freakin' hot when the sundowner winds blew.
I had a GSA security container in my office, which meant windows and the door had to stay closed and locked down. Had I not retired when I did, I would have spent my own money on a portable AC unit.
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A couple of years before I retired, the local CA congresswoman insisted we build a new building for our office and move it to UC Santa Barbara, and make it green. It had no AC and was designed with "window circulation", which meant you had to keep upstairs and downstairs office windows open, and then it had skylights that automatically opened after it hit a certain temperature. We also had to keep our office doors open in order for it all to work as intended. It was still freakin' hot when the sundowner winds blew.
I had a GSA security container in my office, which meant windows and the door had to stay closed and locked down. Had I not retired when I did, I would have spent my own money on a portable AC unit.
Luddites. It's no coincidence they also hate your modern sporting rifle.
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Lets understand this problem with some facts.
In 2020, California consumed 1380.7 trillion BTU's of motor gasoline in the transportation sector [cite (https://www.eia.gov/state/seds/sep_fuel/html/fuel_mg.html)].
In 2021 California produced 193,569 GW-hr of electrical power. [cite (https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/california-electricity-data/electric-generation-capacity-and-energy)]
The average electric car kWh per 100 miles (kWh/100 mi) is 34.6. This works out as 0.346kWh per mile. [cite (https://ecocostsavings.com/average-electric-car-kwh-per-mile/)]
Gasoline contains about 120k btu per gallon. A 30 MPG car will therefore consume 4000 BTUth per mile.
California gasoline consumption equates to 3.5x1011 miles driven, assuming 30MPG. For average electric cars to travel this distance, they would consume 1.2x1011 kw-hr.
1.2x1014 wh-hr / 1.94x1014 ≈ 0.62.
Conclusion: If all gasoline energy used for transportation in California were to be replaced with electrical power (with the above assumptions) the electrical demand from transportation would consume 62% of existing generating capacity.
California will need to massively increase it's electrical generation capacity if this proposal is to work.
It's a nice calculation but it's wrong.
Instead of starting from gasoline consumed, you have to start from total miles driven. Then multiply that by known efficiency of EVs. When you do it that way, you come up with closer to 15% increase.
Which sounds much better. Even doable. Until you remember that increasing grid capacity by even 15% is a gigantic undertaking that would require a heroic growth plan, and those plans still don't exist.
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And... They looked at a single fuel.
Diesel should also be figured in.
And... Can small businesses which rely upon diesel vehicles afford to upgrade? Big ones can fit them in...
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It's a nice calculation but it's wrong.
Instead of starting from gasoline consumed, you have to start from total miles driven. Then multiply that by known efficiency of EVs. When you do it that way, you come up with closer to 15% increase.
Which sounds much better. Even doable. Until you remember that increasing grid capacity by even 15% is a gigantic undertaking that would require a heroic growth plan, and those plans still don't exist.
Worse, not oniy do those plans not exist should any attempt be made to increase capacity it will be tied up for years in courts by the same people who scream for EVs. The usual cycle of lawsuits, construction, pauses for more lawsuits, more construction that is now ridiculously over budget and behind schedule, and then cancellation when the project is almost finished because of some never seen before endangered species will apply to any and all infrastructure projects
The leftist (*expletive deleted*ing retards that they are) response to when you raise concerns about the outdated and inadequate grid is “oh the ban is 13 years away at this point plenty of time” and “solar solar solar everything”. Apparently the Civil Engineers of the Internet believe that massive projects are like making the newest model of IPhones…just dream the ideas up amd it’s on the shelves in 6 months.
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"Stranded Tourist with Dead Electric Car Helped by West Virginia Coal Miners"
https://www.breitbart.com/local/2022/09/04/stranded-tourist-dead-electric-car-helped-west-virginia-coal-miners/ (https://www.breitbart.com/local/2022/09/04/stranded-tourist-dead-electric-car-helped-west-virginia-coal-miners/)
The car, driven by a tourist from Wash. DC, couldn't be towed because the bottom was all plastic fittings and there was nothing to safely connect a cable to. The car was pushed to the coal mine offices by five miners where the driver could plug it in for a recharge. The miners even gave the driver a "Friend of Coal" license plate to take home with him. :rofl:
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"Worse, not oniy do those plans not exist should any attempt be made to increase capacity it will be tied up for years in courts by the same people who scream for EVs."
Ding ding ding!
I'm going to make some popcorn and watch California burn...
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It's a nice calculation but it's wrong.
Instead of starting from gasoline consumed, you have to start from total miles driven. Then multiply that by known efficiency of EVs. When you do it that way, you come up with closer to 15% increase.
Which sounds much better. Even doable. Until you remember that increasing grid capacity by even 15% is a gigantic undertaking that would require a heroic growth plan, and those plans still don't exist.
Certainly possible I'm wrong, but I'm not seeing how.
Californians drive 340 billion miles per year [cite (https://www.policygenius.com/auto-insurance/average-miles-driven-by-state/)]. That's pretty close to what I came up with at 3.5x1011
So, which bit do you disagree with? ???
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The fix is in
Newsom Promises There Will Be Enough Electricity For All Californians After Everyone Moves To Florida
https://babylonbee.com/news/newsom-promises-there-will-be-enough-electricity-for-all-californians-once-everyone-moves-to-florida
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A couple of years before I retired, the local CA congresswoman insisted we build a new building for our office and move it to UC Santa Barbara, and make it green. It had no AC and was designed with "window circulation", which meant you had to keep upstairs and downstairs office windows open, and then it had skylights that automatically opened after it hit a certain temperature. We also had to keep our office doors open in order for it all to work as intended. It was still freakin' hot when the sundowner winds blew.
I had a GSA security container in my office, which meant windows and the door had to stay closed and locked down. Had I not retired when I did, I would have spent my own money on a portable AC unit.
Several decades ago, a domed sport stadium ("Hubert H. Humphrey Metrodome") was built in Minneapolis without any air conditioning - the air pumped inside to keep the dome up was supposed to provide all the cooling needed.
It didn't. The informal name became "The Steamerdome." Fortunately, allowance had been made in the structure to retrofit A/C which was eventually done.
They also tried to save energy by not heating the roof. In Minneapolis. Snow load caused the dome to tear and collapse . . . to no thinking person's surprise.
There was a city office building in St. Paul, MN that was built with solar panels on the roof, which architects and city "leaders" assured everyone would provide all the heating needed thanks to the great insulation they put in.
It didn't. They didn't think about long periods - weeks at a time - with overcast skies during the winter. They got frost inside.
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There was a city office building in St. Paul, MN that was built with solar panels on the roof, which architects and city "leaders" assured everyone would provide all the heating needed thanks to the great insulation they put in.
It didn't. They didn't think about long periods - weeks at a time - with overcast skies during the winter. They got frost inside.
I have a solar array. 17.5KW nominal, on a ground mount because I have almost no south facing roof, mostly E/W. On a bright sunshiny summer day it will make 110kwh. On a grim, cloudy winter day it might barely make 1kWh.
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^^^Does it feed into a battery bank for off-grid, or do you sell it back to the local electric utility?
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^^^Does it feed into a battery bank for off-grid, or do you sell it back to the local electric utility?
Just net-metering. Batteries were $$$$. Be nice in terms of having an effective and silent backup generator, but was totally unaffordable.
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Just net-metering. Batteries were $$$$. Be nice in terms of having an effective and silent backup generator, but was totally unaffordable.
Yep. Battery tech and prices kind of kill the idea of being totally off-grid for most houses.
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This man apparently wants to be our next president:
https://nypost.com/2022/09/07/gavin-newsom-slammed-for-ac-double-standard-amid-heatwave/
https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/california-pushed-to-the-limit-by-a-relentless-heat-wave-that-broke-the-mold/ar-AA11yUCY
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This man apparently wants to be our next president:
https://nypost.com/2022/09/07/gavin-newsom-slammed-for-ac-double-standard-amid-heatwave/
https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/california-pushed-to-the-limit-by-a-relentless-heat-wave-that-broke-the-mold/ar-AA11yUCY
Besides the "double standard" mentioned in the Post article, his other double standard is that he relentlessly attacked Texas when they had power outages during their ice storms, which are not within the expected parameters of their grid. Heat waves are calculated into the CA grid as an expected event.
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Surprised? No
Shocked? No
Disappointed? Yes
Expected? Yes
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https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2022/09/07/oil-gas-workers-assn-reply-to-l-a-news-anchors-tweet-about-power-outage-is-chefs-kiss/
"Get somebody to bring you 5 gallons of wind turbine."
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This man apparently wants to be our next president:
https://nypost.com/2022/09/07/gavin-newsom-slammed-for-ac-double-standard-amid-heatwave/
https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/california-pushed-to-the-limit-by-a-relentless-heat-wave-that-broke-the-mold/ar-AA11yUCY
Outrage over that? Such idiots.
The guy is wearing branded clothing for a video shoot. That looks better/more official than his black t-shirt he has on. What about the cap? Does that keep the head cool or warm? Damn pundits are grasping at straws.
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California Government Recommends Purchasing A Giant Hamster Wheel To Charge Your Electric Car
https://babylonbee.com/news/californian-government-develops-hamster-wheel-to-charge-your-car-when-the-grid-goes-down