Bailout passed in house

[Manedwolf]

He also had a HELL of a lot of money left over from his election bid.

Why didn't he use it to fight off this "disaster" if he cares so much? He had enough for a huge ad campaign! Could it be that he'd rather hang onto his own money?

Have you considered that this money has been all put into the CFL, which HAS organized a campaign for people to call Congress in opposition to the bill, and which is not, in fact, a scheme to enrich RP, nor is RP in personal control of its finances?

Have you considered that what I said about people like McCain holds EVEN IF RON PAUL TURNS OUT TO BE A CLOSET COMMUNIST?

And what did they do? I didn't see a single damned commercial. I did not hear of any rallies.

No wonder he couldn't even get past the primaries.

[MicroBalrog]

He also had a HELL of a lot of money left over from his election bid.

Why didn't he use it to fight off this "disaster" if he cares so much? He had enough for a huge ad campaign! Could it be that he'd rather hang onto his own money?

Have you considered that this money has been all put into the CFL, which HAS organized a campaign for people to call Congress in opposition to the bill, and which is not, in fact, a scheme to enrich RP, nor is RP in personal control of its finances?

Have you considered that what I said about people like McCain holds EVEN IF RON PAUL TURNS OUT TO BE A CLOSET COMMUNIST?

And what did they do? I didn't see a single damned commercial. I did not hear of any rallies.

No wonder he couldn't even get past the primaries.

So let's see.

Your argument against RP is that he's politically inept while doing the right thing.

That's still better than doing the wrong thing.

[Manedwolf]

He also had a HELL of a lot of money left over from his election bid.

Why didn't he use it to fight off this "disaster" if he cares so much? He had enough for a huge ad campaign! Could it be that he'd rather hang onto his own money?

Have you considered that this money has been all put into the CFL, which HAS organized a campaign for people to call Congress in opposition to the bill, and which is not, in fact, a scheme to enrich RP, nor is RP in personal control of its finances?

Have you considered that what I said about people like McCain holds EVEN IF RON PAUL TURNS OUT TO BE A CLOSET COMMUNIST?

And what did they do? I didn't see a single damned commercial. I did not hear of any rallies.

No wonder he couldn't even get past the primaries.

So let's see.

Your argument against RP is that he's politically inept while doing the right thing.

That's still better than doing the wrong thing.

I'm saying you need a better hero than your completely ineffectual elderly Don Quixote, who can be "right" all he wants, but is a LOUSY opposition leader.

[The Annoyed Man]

I'm saying you need a better hero than your completely ineffectual elderly Don Quixote, who can be "right" all he wants, but is a LOUSY opposition leader.

What defines "lousy"? Is a man 'lousy' if he can stand as an island in a sea of opposition?

Or, is a man 'lousy' if he abandons his island in the eye of the storm?

[MicroBalrog]

He also had a HELL of a lot of money left over from his election bid.

Why didn't he use it to fight off this "disaster" if he cares so much? He had enough for a huge ad campaign! Could it be that he'd rather hang onto his own money?

Have you considered that this money has been all put into the CFL, which HAS organized a campaign for people to call Congress in opposition to the bill, and which is not, in fact, a scheme to enrich RP, nor is RP in personal control of its finances?

Have you considered that what I said about people like McCain holds EVEN IF RON PAUL TURNS OUT TO BE A CLOSET COMMUNIST?

And what did they do? I didn't see a single damned commercial. I did not hear of any rallies.

No wonder he couldn't even get past the primaries.

So let's see.

Your argument against RP is that he's politically inept while doing the right thing.

That's still better than doing the wrong thing.

I'm saying you need a better hero than your completely ineffectual elderly Don Quixote, who can be "right" all he wants, but is a LOUSY opposition leader.

I'm not even TALKING about Ron Paul here. I'm talking about the general failure of 'moderate conservatism'.

Let me restate it in better terms:

I'd rather have Don Quixote in charge than Anakin Skywalker.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Tell me, what did Ron Paul actually do to fight the bailout bill?  What it the right thing?  What is the right way to oppose the bailout bill? 

Why are we discussing the person of Ron Paul at all? Is he running for President?

Here: I do not know what RP said to what Congressman behind the scenes, and whether he said anything to them at all. I do not care, either.

Because we were talking about McCain's qualities as a candidate.

No matter what Ron Paul did, McCain did worse, because McCain supported the bill. No matter how well he did it, he did the wrong thing.

You're talking about McCain, but I'm talking about Paul.  Both failed us today.  One did it by acting skillfully for the wrong outcome, one did it by acting incompetently for the right outcome.  Same net result either way, the bill still got passed.  

This is what I mean when I say that having the right position on issues isn't enough.  A good politician must both carry the right positions and be able to get results.  Only having only one or the other doesn't work.

Yes, McCain and the others did the wrong thing this time.  It happens.  If you have some sort of expectation that your representative is going to do exactly what you personally want him to do, each and every time, then you're going to be extremely disappointed.  Unless you figure out how to clone yourself, and then figure out how to get your clone elected, then there will invariably be times when your representative has a different opinion than you do.  

No, perfect candidates don't exist.  You must find the candidate who most closely agrees with you on the issues that are most important to you, and then balance that against the candidate's ability to influence the government.  Sometimes a candidate who only agrees with you some of the time, but who has great ability to make his beliefs law, is a better choice than a candidate who agrees with you all of the time but who will never make his beliefs law.  

It's a balancing act.  Ron Paul can't balance. 

[MicroBalrog]

See, there's a difference between disagreeing with me (or rather, 'us' - I hope we're all on the same page here at APS) on some issue, and having the completely wrong principles.

Fred Thompson disagreed with us on some stuff, but he had the right angle.

Mike Huckabee disagreed with us on some stuff, but he had the right angle.

Ron Paul disagreed with us on some stuff, but he had the right angle [with me personally, I like his position on 90% of the stuff]

Giuliani disagreed with us on most stuff, and had the completely wrong angle, but at least, with some pressure, could be prevailed upon to agree with *us* rather than the Democrats.

McCain not only has the completely wrong angle and disagrees with us on most issues, he actually BELIEVES in this 'moderate' stuff rather than being just corrupt like Giuliani. That's bad.

As for politics, the President has a lot of powers to enact change (both Constitutional and traditional) that do not require the consent of Congress. I believe I said it before on the subject of RP - had RP become President, it'd not be a magical reversal of all the evil policies, but it'd be a lot like hitting 88 miles per hour in old Doc Brown's car, you'd see some serious *expletive deleted*it.

That's irrelevant though, because he's not running for President, now is he?

[The Annoyed Man]

You're talking about McCain, but I'm talking about Paul.  Both failed us today.  One did it by acting skillfully for the wrong outcome, one did it by acting incompetently for the right outcome.  Same net result either way, the bill still got passed.  

The double standards are spilling out onto the floor.

Not long ago, you were arguing that we all have one vote, and we should use it to the best of our ability. Now, you are willingly and adamantly overlooking McCain's wrong vote (or acknowledging it, yet marginalizing its utter stupidity). Now you essentially fault Dr. Paul because he used his one vote to the best of his ability!

Explain, in depth, if you will, "acting skillfully for the wrong outcome."

(I would like to know how a football player can make an excellent catch and carry the football to the opponent's target endzone.)

(And then still make the starting line-up for the next game of the season)

edited: football scoring clarification 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Now you essentially fault Dr. Paul because he used his one vote to the best of his ability!

I don't think you understand how politics works.  By focusing on the way Paul voted to the exclusion of all else, you're missing what really happens.

Voting isn't what gets laws passed.  Politics is what gets laws passed.  The voting is subordinate to politics, because the politics will control the outcome of the vote. 

As a congressman, Ron Paul has (or should have) far more political resources and influence at his disposal than his simple vote.  If all he did was decide to vote 'nay' and then withdraw from the process, then for all practical purposes he didn't lift a finger to oppose the bailout.  He abstained in all the ways that mattered.  Why would anyone support that?

[MicroBalrog]

I believe I addressed that point in my post above. You seem to be only responding to nobody's_hero.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I believe I addressed that point in my post above. You seem to be only responding to nobody's_hero.

Indeed I am.

I generally agree with what you just posted.  McCain's biggest problem is his willingness to go along with the Democrats in the name of compromise.  You don't try to compromise with people hell-bent on destroying you, you defeat them.

Anyway, my point in starting this thread wasn't to blather on about politics.  I wanted to discuss the economic implications of the bailout passing.  By my math, the Dow lost almost 500 points after the bailout was approved.  I find that curious.  The dollar is rising too, which  seems odd, expecially considering it took a dive on Monday when the bailout failed.

[MicroBalrog]

I generally agree with what you just posted. 

*stares*

[AZRedhawk44]

I find that curious.

The folks on Wall Street know:
1.  We're pissed.
2.  Conservatives are REALLY pissed.
3.  Conservatives feel disconnected with the process, and unrepresented by their candidate.
4.  Conservatives will now stay home in November.
5.  Barry will win.
6.  Barry will raise taxes.
7.  Conservatives already know this and are saving money, not investing, because capital gains on investments are going up next year.

Hence, the Dow went down.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I generally agree with what you just posted. 

*stares*

I generally agree with your politics, Micro.  I just disagree on the best way to achieve them.  You approach it idealistically, I approach it pragmatically.  We tend to get so caught up in the details that we forget we're on the same side.  You call it libertarianism, I call it conservatism, but it's very nearly the same thing.

[MicroBalrog]

I generally agree with what you just posted. 

*stares*

I generally agree with your politics, Micro.  I just disagree on the best way to achieve them.  You approach it idealistically, I approach it pragmatically.  We tend to get so caught up in the details that we forget we're on the same side.  You call it libertarianism, I call it conservatism, but it's very nearly the same thing.

Eh, I know we're both libertaconservatives.

I was rather surprised because I was getting all worked up to keep this going a dozen more pages.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Oh, ok.  We can do that, too, if you want.

If I mention Ron Paul one more time, will that vein on your temple stick out again?

 

[MicroBalrog]

Oh, ok.  We can do that, too, if you want.

If I mention Ron Paul one more time, will that vein on your temple stick out again?

 

No, RP is my cause for gloating.

See, you could have had THAT.

Instead, you have THIS.

[Modifiedbrowning]

Well, at least my representative voted NO

Go Denny!

[Bigjake]

Hell, that aint no gloating thing.

My two favorite commies, Marcy Kaptur (D- whats left of Toledo) and Dennis "The Menace" Kucinich both voted it down.

[MicroBalrog]

Hell, that aint no gloating thing.

My two favorite commies, Marcy Kaptur (D- whats left of Toledo) and Dennis "The Menace" Kucinich both voted it down.

That's why I love Dennis. He's commie, but he's honest.

Anyhow, that's not what I meant.

Had Ron triumphed in the primaries, we'd see a beginning of an end to this sort of crap, and had he, through some miracle, been elected, it'd be Game Over.

[Ben]

I thought the thread title was "Bailout Passed in House", not "Let's Argue About Ron Paul Again".

Lets get back on topic please. Otherwise I'm running out of padlocks and I'm going to have to ask for a govt bailout so I can get some money to keep my thread locking business solvent.