Author Topic: No smoking in combat zones?  (Read 20259 times)

Monkeyleg

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Re: No smoking in combat zones?
« Reply #75 on: July 22, 2009, 09:47:35 AM »
Everyone (or most everyone) here is reasonable with their arguments. There are, as Uncle Bubba has pointed out, some very unreasonable people out there.

I recall listening to a local conservative talk radio show. A woman called in to complain about the store clerks at a large department store who hang around the ashtray located 20 or 30 feet from the doors.

The host asked if it bothered her to smell smoke when she walked past them, to which she replied that she didn't get close enough to smell it.

He asked her what the problem was, and she said that it looked bad.

[facetious voice]Sheesh. I'm old enough to remember when hating people based upon their skin color was sufficient for most folks.[/facetious voice]

K Frame

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Re: No smoking in combat zones?
« Reply #76 on: July 22, 2009, 11:24:49 AM »
A couple of years ago I tied into it with Bob Levey of the Washington Post.

Someone wrote in complaining about someone smoking at the National Zoo, and he opined that smoking should be banned in the zoo for the sake of the animals.

My question was whether he meant the animals who resided at the zoo permanently, or the animals who visited the zoo from South East DC...

$#*(&$^)(*&^()*&$ 'tard.
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: No smoking in combat zones?
« Reply #77 on: July 22, 2009, 12:42:20 PM »
my main issue with folks who have issues with ciggerette smoke only come up if their standing in a designated smoking area and making a fuss. i'm with bubba the rest of the time, but if you come into a smoking area and expect me to put out a ciggerette, your nuts.
The thing is, to, with those folk, you know its not the ones that have an actual issue with ciggerette smoke, like bridgewalker, because folks like her won't come within 100 ft of those areas in the first place. they're just doing it to shove in your face how dirty and nasty you are.

i know its a bad habit and i know its bad for my health and i know some people think it stinks, but i have my reasons (the foremost being i LIKE smoking) for doing it. i figure as long as i'm not forcing it on them then they need to get over it.

funny side note: my mother and step father actually do the complete oppisite for me. they hate the fact that i smoke but are increadibly polite about when we go to resterants and voleentarly (without me asking) sit in the smoking sections. i think it also may have to do with the fact that they are smart enough to know i won't quit till i'm good and ready and their not going to waste time complaining.
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Iain

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Re: No smoking in combat zones?
« Reply #78 on: July 22, 2009, 03:34:07 PM »
Here is a surpise: inhaling the products of burning is bad for your body. It is amazing that people continue to deny this.

Milloy and the FUD activists like him sure have done a good job. Take a bow Phillip Morris.
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chaim

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Re: No smoking in combat zones?
« Reply #79 on: July 24, 2009, 11:09:45 AM »
Quote
my main issue with folks who have issues with ciggerette smoke only come up if their standing in a designated smoking area and making a fuss. i'm with bubba the rest of the time, but if you come into a smoking area and expect me to put out a ciggerette, your nuts.

My favorite was when a smoker complained about my smoking.

Around 10 or 15 years ago when smoking was still legal in local bars I was at a bar with a lot of smokers.  Knowing that not everyone likes the smell of cigars, and not wanting to put out my $15 cigar once I started it, I asked those around me if they minded if I light up and no one did.  Some busybody woman at the other end of the bar who was chain smoking cigarettes saw me smoking my cigar and made a big deal of my smoking the cigar, complained that it stunk horribly, and insisted I put it out- she did so quite rudely and loudly, yelling at me, no screaming at me, from across the bar.  I told her that I would if she stopped smoking cigarettes, she said that my cigar stunk, not her cigarettes, and she complained to management claiming that not only would I not put out my cigar but that I was belligerent and rude with her (projection anyone?).   Now, the manager on duty and half the staff at the restaurant not only told her no, the wouldn't ask me to put it out, but laughed at her request to kick me out for being rude (the manager was one of my two closest friends and most of the staff knew me well, so they knew her claims of rudeness and being belligerent were insane).  Unfortunately, she turned out to be friends with the owner and soon both cigars and pipes were banned at the bar (I was the only person to ever smoke a pipe there, and I never had one complaint about the smell, but rather several compliments), but he didn't ban cigarettes (which actually do stink).


As for the topic, banning smoking in the military, I think the idea is insane.  These people have signed on to risk their lives for our freedom, I don't think we should take away their freedom to smoke.  As for the "we pay their healthcare bills" argument, so what?  They have volunteered to risk their lives for our freedom.  Plus, soon Obama will have his way and the taxpayers will be paying everyone's medical bills- should we then all lose the right to smoke?  My answer is no, we need to preserve as much personal freedom (even those we don't like) as possible.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 11:15:15 AM by chaim »
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Monkeyleg

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Re: No smoking in combat zones?
« Reply #80 on: July 24, 2009, 12:34:23 PM »
Just remember that, decades ago, 50% of the adult population smoked. Today that number is slightly under 25%. The anti-smoking crowd started out proposing bans back in the 1970's. The promise was that reducing smoking would reduce health care costs.

With such a dramatic a drop in smoking, why do we need health care reform? Liberal ideas work, right?

Phantom Warrior

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Re: No smoking in combat zones?
« Reply #81 on: July 24, 2009, 03:16:30 PM »
As for the topic, banning smoking in the military, I think the idea is insane.  These people have signed on to risk their lives for our freedom, I don't think we should take away their freedom to smoke.  As for the "we pay their healthcare bills" argument, so what?  They have volunteered to risk their lives for our freedom.  Plus, soon Obama will have his way and the taxpayers will be paying everyone's medical bills- should we then all lose the right to smoke?  My answer is no, we need to preserve as much personal freedom (even those we don't like) as possible.

I'm sorry, but have you ever been in the military?  Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious but much more basic freedoms than smoking are denied in the military every single day.  One of the more it's-funny-because-it's-true jokes I ever heard was "The United States military is the world's biggest dictatorship defending the world's biggest democracy."  Whatever decision is made I strongly doubt Soldiers' personal freedoms will factor into it.

chaim

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Re: No smoking in combat zones?
« Reply #82 on: July 24, 2009, 06:22:18 PM »
I'm sorry, but have you ever been in the military?  Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious but much more basic freedoms than smoking are denied in the military every single day.  One of the more it's-funny-because-it's-true jokes I ever heard was "The United States military is the world's biggest dictatorship defending the world's biggest democracy."  Whatever decision is made I strongly doubt Soldiers' personal freedoms will factor into it.

I joined right after high school but unfortunately my ankle didn't allow me to stay in for very long.  I understand that the UCMJ does not provide the same freedoms and protections the rest of us have.  However, there are generally reasons (sometimes even good ones) to take away various freedoms, it isn't arbitrary.  Given the number of people who smoke, I think the savings won't be that drastic (and not enough to justify reducing our service members' freedom in that area).  Alcohol poses a more serious threat to operational readiness and probably at least as great a health care cost, but I don't see anyone seriously proposing that our Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines shouldn't be allowed to have a beer.  Further, if done under a "we pay their healthcare, and no smoking should reduce that cost" justification, that same justification will be used to introduce a tobacco prohibition on the rest of us once Obama has his way with universal coverage and there will then be precedent. 
« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 06:26:47 PM by chaim »
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Iain

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Re: No smoking in combat zones?
« Reply #83 on: July 24, 2009, 06:34:44 PM »
Just remember that, decades ago, 50% of the adult population smoked. Today that number is slightly under 25%. The anti-smoking crowd started out proposing bans back in the 1970's. The promise was that reducing smoking would reduce health care costs.

With such a dramatic a drop in smoking, why do we need health care reform? Liberal ideas work, right?

Time lag between reduction in smoking and reductions in smoking-related dieseas, rise in obesity, longer life spans and more expensive (and effective) treatments for diseases (leading to longer life spans) Probably a lot more factors.

I hope you weren't trying to make a serious point.
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Monkeyleg

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Re: No smoking in combat zones?
« Reply #84 on: July 24, 2009, 07:03:45 PM »
I guess I should regularly use [sarcasm] tags.

Of course, a promise from government is worth it's weight in printed dollars.

MicroBalrog

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Re: No smoking in combat zones?
« Reply #85 on: July 28, 2009, 06:01:31 AM »
this seems appropriate:

When They Came for the Smokers ...

by L. Neil Smith

             A friend of mine calls himself a "political smoker".
             He doesn't smoke. He never has.
             But told some time ago at a Los Angeles supper club that he and other members would henceforward be forbidden to smoke, his immediate reaction was to borrow a cigarette from somebody sitting nearby, stand, and light it up in protest. As he sees it, his interests, in terms of his individual and civil rights, run parallel with those of smokers who are being increasingly stripped of theirs.
             I am a former smoker.
             I quit cold more than a year ago, after suffering a heart attack. Even before that, I never claimed that smoking is good for anybody, just that I had always enjoyed doing it -- and that a great many lies were being told about it by individuals and groups who had gone beyond non-smoking to become anti- smokers.
             But I, too, remain a political smoker.
             Exactly like many another do-gooder-targetted group, smokers today are well along in the process of losing their human rights -- and more and more, it seems, their very humanity -- to social parasites who, as H.L. Mencken is reputed to have put it long ago, awaken in the middle of the night, sweat- drenched and trembling with the morbid fear that somewhere, someone might be happy. Until now, there hasn't been an effective way to crush these lice on the American body politic -- and their bloodsucking symbionts in media and government -- between the thumb of the Ninth Amendment and the forefinger of the First.
             Until now.
             Let me suggest a couple of ways to begin dealing with them. Of course you're free to employ one or the other, or both, or go off and think something up yourself ...
             Although I smoked two packs of Marlboros a day for 30 years, I indulged in cigars and pipes, as well. One thing I still haven't been able to do is dispose of my collection of the latter. Some I inherited from my father and an uncle. They're pretty, they were chosen to express my personality -- the same way you buy a hat -- and they still smell wonderful. I keep my ancient favorite on my desktop to this day, and although I'll never put tobacco in it again and light it, I still pick it up -- it feels comfortingly familiar in my hand -- fondle it, and hang it off my lower teeth for a contemplative moment or two.
             Drug paraphernalia.
             So far, it hasn't left the house since that night last summer when I was rushed to the emergency room with unbearable pains in my chest and left arm. But I'm thinking of taking it on a field trip to the non-smoking section of a restaurant or two. I know what will happen, and so, if you think about it, do you.
             There are non-smokers like me, and then there are anti-smokers.
             The anti-smokers all around me will begin to fidget.
             They'll mutter to themselves and each other.
             They'll glare at me.
             Because what they're all about -- what they've always been all about -- has absolutely nothing to do with the presence or absence of first- or second- or third-hand smoke and whether it harms anybody or not. That's only their excuse.
             What it has to do with is the complete unsuitability, in their twisted minds, of simple human pleasure in the lives of everyone around them. This used to be the preoccupation of Puritanical religions. Today, most of the people of this bent have abandoned religion, but they haven't abandoned the demented ecstasy they experience by shouting "Thou shalt not!" at everyone in sight -- and being able to back it up with the brute force of governmental edict.
             If I'm especially lucky, they'll complain to the management who'll be forced to confront me and my empty, tobaccoless pipe and ask me to put it back in my pocket or leave the restaurant. Either that or, at my suggestion, the management will go back to the nicotine Nazis at the next table and tell them where to put their complaints -- not in their pockets, but where the sun never shines.
             So ... My first suggestion is that you become a political smoker. Go to the nearest drugstore and pick out an inexpensive pipe, a pipe that's never had tobacco in it, a pipe that likely never will, a pipe that strikes you as attractive or expresses some aspect of your personality. They make all kinds of pretty ones, not only briar, but gold, silver, inlaid, or enameled. Think of it as a fashion accessory or an item of jewelry. Don't worry that it serves no practical purpose. What practical purpose does an earring or a necktie serve?
             Display it in your favorite restaurant, on the bus, at the theater, at a children's daycare center. What your empty pipe will accomplish is to inform beleaguered smokers that they're not alone, as media and government would have them believe. It will inform Prohibitionists that their reign of terror is coming to a long-overdue end, that they're up against a civilized solidarity that maintains the human, Constitutional, and American right to go to hell in your own way.
             There used to be a certain class of people -- people of a certain color -- who by longstanding evil custom were forbidden to sit anywhere on a bus but at the back. After a century or so of such nonsense, one of them courageously refused to abide by this evil custom, and she changed the course of American history forever.
             On another occasion, another class of people -- those who for reasons of their own enjoy nicotine in its many forms -- were also limited to the back of the bus.
             Today, even that has been taken away.
             My second suggestion to you is that we call such people "niccers" -- after their recreational drug of choice -- as loudly and as often as we can, so that the average tobacco Prohibitionist -- say, California Congressman Henry Waxman, as nasty a piece of work as I've ever seen in more than three decades of political observation -- will realize precisely who and what he has become.
             I'm a political niccer.
             Are you one, too?

http://www.lneilsmith.org/niccers.html
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Jamisjockey

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Re: No smoking in combat zones?
« Reply #86 on: July 28, 2009, 08:18:55 AM »
His opening point is awful.  A Dinner club is a private group.  As a libertarian, LNS should know his right to smoke doesn't trump the dinner club's private property rights.   
JD

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roo_ster

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Re: No smoking in combat zones?
« Reply #87 on: July 28, 2009, 11:12:21 AM »
Well, start with people going directly into officers programs.  I can't think of any serious applicant for JAG or similar legal programs who wouldn't do what it takes to get a spot, including quitting smoking, and there is a serious excess of well-qualified applicants anyway.  I understand there is similar competition for many programs.  Then make is a prereq not for enlisting, but for getting into certain high-demand MOSs. 

Dunno about the other services, but USAF Basic Training and OTS have been no-smoking for many years. 

As are the Army equivalents.

Thing is, the majority of tobacco users I knew in my unit picked up the tobacco habit after joining the service.  Most often picked up was during one of the usual high-stress, low-sleep, few-rations, high-activity bouts of training.  They'd do it to stay awake when staying awake was difficult but necessary or some such.
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roo_ster

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roo_ster

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Re: No smoking in combat zones?
« Reply #88 on: July 28, 2009, 11:18:01 AM »
It is and has been proven time and time again that smoking is damaging to your physique.

And, so you've got a whole new generation of vets that have been wounded and will receive VA benefits for the rest of their lives.  And if that includes emphysema or cancer from smoking....you and I are footing the bill.

Again, you do have the right to do whatever you want to yourself and I fully prescribe to that theory.  But as an employer, the fed.gov should have the same rights to deny employment for it.

Meh, just another way the anti-smoking fascists want to harass smokers.  Next in line after tobacco is alcohol.  If you doubt, gawk at some of the MADD literature and activism, these days.  

His opening point is awful.  A Dinner club is a private group.  As a libertarian, LNS should know his right to smoke doesn't trump the dinner club's private property rights.  

True, he rights don't trump the group's property rights.  But, it was a fine display of defiance and solidarity in the face of the anti-smoking turds, who are much more obnoxious and deserving of a swift kick in the jimmy,  than the smokers & their filthy habits.
Regards,

roo_ster

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doczinn

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Re: No smoking in combat zones?
« Reply #89 on: July 28, 2009, 11:19:39 AM »
Quote
niccer
I like it.
D. R. ZINN

roo_ster

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Re: No smoking in combat zones?
« Reply #90 on: July 28, 2009, 11:20:32 AM »
I can understand being sensitive to it. However, when it causes you to go into a racking cough when a lit cigarette is 100 yds or more downwind, I'd say you have a psychological problem...

I try to be as polite as possible (except with my mom-in-law: she LIKES second-hand smoke). But there are limits...

I like the smell of a good cigar and pipe tobacco.  I get to enjoy the aroma and avoid the ill effects.  OTOH, most cigarette smoke is awful, save the very best quality.  Too many folks buying the cheap coffin nails.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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Re: No smoking in combat zones?
« Reply #91 on: July 29, 2009, 02:53:18 AM »

It just seems very stupid to waste money when you were so young and had a whole civilian life ahead of you with all the extreme expenses of housing, marriage, possible unemployment, and possible education ahead of you. It would have made more sense to save when you were getting all the non-montary benefits the military provided.
 

Well, there is that.

But, let me take you back on a stroll through the life of a Marine in the seventies.  They were people who were sent into harm’s way.  Some of them died.  Many of them lived for the moment because they had no clue if that day would be their last. 

Vietnam wasn’t over until 1973- Marines died there that year as they did in '70, '71, and '72. 

Marines evacuated the Cambodia US Embassy during (I recall what was named) Op Eagle Pull.  It wasn't exactly considered a cake walk.

Then once again they were sent into Vietnam on Op Frequent Wind.  Again they had no way of knowing what the reception was they may receive.

Then Marines went into Cambodia to rescue the crew of the SS Mayaguez.  Marines died there.   My brother, who served concurrently during my time, was one of the Marines on a helicopter that was shot down.  He spend about 15 hours before the rescue on Koh Tang - most of the time under fire.  I'll bet he cut loose and spend money once he was back in Subic.  He was probably both celebrating life and mourning the loss of some friends.  Money well spent in my opinion.

In short, it’s one thing to condemn others for what you may perceive to be improper and wasteful, but I’d have to suggest that until you send bullets downrange and hear a couple incoming, that you are poorly suited to make judgments concerning the actions of those who have.

College, marrying, raising a family, and buying a home were dreams we all had- although we knew full well those days may never come.  Some of my friends didn't get the chance.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 12:28:21 AM by 209 »

RevDisk

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Re: No smoking in combat zones?
« Reply #92 on: July 29, 2009, 05:23:51 AM »

Bah.  I remember when I was deployed and the brass were beating the smoking cessation classes.  I went because they were handing out nic patches, which are handy when you're doing something where smoking is a bad idea.  I remember thinking that they were trying to push the health benefits when folks were getting food poisoning from cheap KBR food, respiratory illnesses from the polluted air (nonsmokers only, of course, which was hilarious) and we had UXO everywhere.   They stopped issuing bottled water and told us to use the base's 'filtered' water (which sucked and tasted rather horrible) or buy your own.  The massive amounts of chlorine probably killed anything biologic, but I doubt they filtered out the chemicals and metals from the water.  And we didn't have field water purification, of course.     

Being in the military is dangerous and often bad for your health.  Whether it's catching a bullet, breaking your legs on a jump or being exposed to rather unhealthy working conditions.  I'm sure folks have good points in wanting to ban smoking in the military, but I still find it hilarious to ban it for health reasons. 

Of course, as I'm writing this, I'm sitting outside an airport smoking.  Can't smoke in the airport.  The airport didn't want to ban smoking, but the state banned it for everyone and refuses to hand out any exceptions.  Of all the evils in the world, of which I've seen more than my fair share, I think the most evil is "We know better than you do, so we are going to control your life.  For your own good."  I'm not referring directly to smoking bans, just the mindset that allows them.
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LadySmith

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Re: No smoking in combat zones?
« Reply #93 on: July 29, 2009, 05:40:31 AM »
I like it.

What...what...WHAT did you say?!?  :mad:  :mad:  :mad:

Quote
niccer

Oh.

 :lol:
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Monkeyleg

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Re: No smoking in combat zones?
« Reply #94 on: July 29, 2009, 09:21:09 AM »
Here's a part of a ban that I think reveals a lot about the motives of anti-smoking crusaders.

We now have a statewide ban on smoking in public places in Wisconsin. Cigar bars and such are exempt. There have been some businesses--bars, cigarette shops, etc--which have approached their city or county boards with proposals to have separate "cigarette bars," which would be separate buildings or specially ventilated rooms. They've all been turned down.

The indian casinos here are exempt from the law. While it's true that indian land is sovereign, the tribes do conform to all other state laws, and I don't think it would have been out of line for the state to get them covered under the ban. But there's this thing called "campaign contributions," and our governor has received millions of them from indian casinos.