No smoking in combat zones?

[zahc]

Always keep in mind that nobody knows what causes cancer.

My toxicologist acquaintance says that carcinogens are "things that kill you slowly enough for you to live long enough to get cancer and die from that instead" or alternately "it's either a poison or it's a carcinogen".

[Uncle Bubba]

1) I have faced actual challenges.

2) I don't pretend to know it all. I may not be as wise as some 50 year olds but I am wise beyond my years.

3) I suppose I am slightly arrogant, however some of what you call arrogance is actually knowledge presented in an relatively untactful manner.

4) I know the real truth about many things. Not all knowledge requires tremendous amounts of life experience to learn. Why should I not criticise if it is true? I suppose I was rude to Bubba, but even he admits his actions are foolish. As for respecting elders since many are complete idiots why should I base something so valuable as respect on the possible notion that a particular one is not. I believe in common courtesy, greater respect is earned.  

Respect is a two-way street. You have been treated with the respect due a thinking human being and fellow occupant of the planet by all here because common courtesy requires us to and because we all know what it was like to be young and learning. Common courtesy also dictates that you don't summarily *expletive deleted*it on others. Learn some tact. I can assure you that if you don't learn it on your own then one day when you speak to someone in person in that manner they will forcibly instruct you on the matter.

And as many another here can attest, it's what you learn after you think you know it all that counts.

[Monkeyleg]

Last time I checked, the Crucifix held just one person, and His place is taken.

[Balog]

I think smoking is certainly a risk factor for lung cancer, depending mostly on how heavily one does it. The body can cleanse itself, but too much at once and it sticks around. Look at X-rays of heavy smokers lungs (or coal miners for that matter). The nasty additives found in many (most?) cigarettes are also a big factor.

I'm a big fan of moderation in everything. It's generally the excessive use of a substance that does the damage, although with the more addictive substances it's quite difficult to use moderately. Ymmv and not everyone reacts the same to outside chemical stimulus.

[Uncle Bubba]

Well said, Balog. Too much of anything is bad for you.


I remember some years back a university coach or athletic director said something akin to yours about addictive substances. In a speech he said that if used properly cocaine is a performance enhancer, but that because it's so addictive it's nearly impossible to get that performance benefit without getting hooked on it. What he said was true, but he was still publicly vilified for saying that there was any benefit to be derived from *gasp* illegal drugs, and threatened with loss of his job if he didn't retract the statement. It was sad to see.

[BridgeRunner]

if used properly cocaine is a performance enhancer, but that because it's so addictive it's nearly impossible to get that performance benefit without getting hooked on it.

OT, but apparently not in its unrefined form.  Iirc, coca leaves are pretty fine and dandy to chew on in most respects. 

One objection I have to the argument that it's possible to prevent loss of performance of smoking and therefore it should continue to be acceptable in the military is the whole problem of secondhand smoke.  I've never lived in base housing, but a number of women of my interweb acquaintance have talked about how the smoke kind of seeps throughout the housing; that a miasma of smoke more or less pervades life on base.  This sounds a bit overblown to me, but nonetheless, I think erring on the side of enhancing performance by removing secondhand smoke is a good idea--with a very, very long phase-in period.

I also agree that it's not strictly about performance, but also about costs.  We shouldn't be saving on mental health costs, or giving cut-rate prosthetics to injured vets.  One way to make better health care more affordable for the military could be to decrease spending on tobacco-related problems. 

[Balog]

Well, the issue with that is recruiting and enforcement. Say "No smoking/chewing" as part of the recruitment pitch and watch the enlistment rates fall. And then, how will one enforce this policy?

[BridgeRunner]

Well, the issue with that is recruiting and enforcement. Say "No smoking/chewing" as part of the recruitment pitch and watch the enlistment rates fall. And then, how will one enforce this policy?

Well, start with people going directly into officers programs.  I can't think of any serious applicant for JAG or similar legal programs who wouldn't do what it takes to get a spot, including quitting smoking, and there is a serious excess of well-qualified applicants anyway.  I understand there is similar competition for many programs.  Then make is a prereq not for enlisting, but for getting into certain high-demand MOSs. 

[Jamisjockey]

Well, the issue with that is recruiting and enforcement. Say "No smoking/chewing" as part of the recruitment pitch and watch the enlistment rates fall. And then, how will one enforce this policy?

Nicotene testing, same as for drugs.
I've got a better way of making the .mil smoke free, though.
Pee test for Nic.  If you pass, receive a % pay bonus every paycheck. 

[Monkeyleg]

And then, how will one enforce this policy?

I was going to say by shooting the offenders, but being shot is already one of the job hazards.

[BlueStarLizzard]

Nicotene testing, same as for drugs.
I've got a better way of making the .mil smoke free, though.
Pee test for Nic.  If you pass, receive a % pay bonus every paycheck. 

actually jamis has a point. why not the carrot instead of the stick for this sort of thing?

[Strings]

I honestly would have no problem with using "the carrot" trick.

To be absolutely truthful, I'm just VERY tired of the nanny state telling us what we can and can't do, use, or say. Yes, I smoke, so I suppose my stance against outlawing smoking makes sense. However, I have the same stance against outlawing alcohol (although I only rarely drink), or our War on Some Drugs (and there's nothing illegal that I would be interested in using)...

 We are a (supposedly) free people. That gives us rights that come with responsibilities. If I decide to do something that has the potential to damage me, that's my right. If I DO get damaged, then those consequences are mine to deal with. This includes being in a car sans seatbelt, riding my bike without a helmet, and yes, smoking.

 As to the damage caused by smoking: I really do think a bunch of it has been overblown. I've watched people who were standing well upwind from me, who were fine until they saw my lit cigarette. THEN, the coughing started...

 

[Jamisjockey]

It is and has been proven time and time again that smoking is damaging to your physique.

And, so you've got a whole new generation of vets that have been wounded and will receive VA benefits for the rest of their lives.  And if that includes emphysema or cancer from smoking....you and I are footing the bill.

Again, you do have the right to do whatever you want to yourself and I fully prescribe to that theory.  But as an employer, the fed.gov should have the same rights to deny employment for it.

[Balog]

VA healthcare for disabled vets is for the issues you're disabled for.

[Jamisjockey]

VA healthcare for disabled vets is for the issues you're disabled for.

If that's truly the case, I only have half an argument.  I served during the Clinton years, so all I did was survive don't ask, don't tell.

[Balog]

It's what they told me, but as massively incompetent and in some cases downright dishonest as they've been who knows.

In any case, I don't think anyone is saying the .mil can't do it. Just that it'd be wicked stupid. Alcohol causes tons of problems, shall we ban the .mil from drinking? Riding motorcycles is very dangerous for young .mil folk, shall we ban them?

[Strings]

My understanding of VA benefits is the same. If it's related to your service, they're accountable. If not, you're SOL...

You only get "full coverage" if a)you were permanently disabled during your service, or b)served until retirement...

[seeker_two]

Sure, smoking increases your risk of cancer. So do many other things. Breathing in general increases your risk of getting it because your sucking in foreign matter.

You've convinced me....I'm going to stop breathing right away...that should extend my life span....




 

[Gewehr98]

Couple things I want to address here:

Say "No smoking/chewing" as part of the recruitment pitch and watch the enlistment rates fall. And then, how will one enforce this policy?

Dunno about the other services, but USAF Basic Training and OTS have been no-smoking for many years. 

VA healthcare for disabled vets is for the issues you're disabled for.

Umm, no.  If you make the magic 10% disability rating or worse, then you're eligible to use the VA hospital system as your primary health care provider, even for non-service related treatment.   It doesn't matter if you separated or retired from the service.

Ask me how I know, and no, I'm not posting pics of my surgery scars... 

[Jamisjockey]

Awesome, now I can dig in both heels. 

[Balog]

Couple things I want to address here:

Dunno about the other services, but USAF Basic Training and OTS have been no-smoking for many years. 

Sure, for the couple months of basic.

Umm, no.  If you make the magic 10% disability rating or worse, then you're eligible to use the VA hospital system as your primary health care provider, even for non-service related treatment.   It doesn't matter if you separated or retired from the service.

Ask me how I know, and no, I'm not posting pics of my surgery scars... 

Huh, I could be wrong. I stay away from the VA after the 2 mis-diagnosed cases of MRSA, myself.

[Uncle Bubba]

 As to the damage caused by smoking: I really do think a bunch of it has been overblown. I've watched people who were standing well upwind from me, who were fine until they saw my lit cigarette. THEN, the coughing started...

*drifting again*

One fine day when I worked at Zoo Atlanta I watched a woman turn from a happy, laughing, enjoying-her-outing-with-family middle-aged mom into a ranting idiot because she smelled cigarette smoke, or said she did. She was standing at the lion viewing area, which is next to the elephant enclosure and across a paved path from rhinos, giraffes, zebras, and gazelles, which need I say makes for a memorable stench on a dead hot Summer day like this one was. As I walked by she turned from her group, put her hands on her hips, and said "All right! Someone's smoking and it stinks!" There was no one in sight except me and I wasn't smoking (I never smoked in the public areas of the zoo when I was working). The only place someone could've been burning one was almost 100 feet away around a corner. As I rounded that corner I could hear her bitching about it. No one else in her group said they could smell it, and she polled them all before I got out of earshot. I saw her several times in different areas of the zoo over the next two-plus hours and every time she was still bitching about having smelled cigarette smoke. One whiff, that no one else smelled, ruined her day. That's a sad way to go through life.

[BridgeRunner]

One whiff, that no one else smelled, ruined her day. That's a sad way to go through life.

You are assuming that having something to bitch and moan about ruined her day.  Sounds like she just really likes bitching and moaning self-righteously.

Of course, I am guilty of the coughing fits around smokers (not just smoke, but smokers), but it is rarely a flurry of coughing, unless I'm sick already.  Usually it's just a tightness in my chest and throat, a cough or two, and increased susceptibility to other triggers for a little while. 

It cuts both ways.  I really frickin' hate getting the dirty looks, like I somehow messed up some guy's day by being unable to contain a cough.  My father-in-law, of course, will blow smoke right in my face, simply to get the satisfaction of getting pissy at me for daring to cough.  And sure, I have issues with all kinds of smoke.  I can't go to state campgrounds on holidays anymore because of the pervasive smoke.  But no one gets offended when their campfire makes me cough.

ETA:  On the phantom smoke smell:  My mother once had a headache on and off for a couple of years.  Very severe headache, that never entirely went away, and got really bad several times a week.  It was diagnosed as a sinus infection, but now I suspect it was migraines.  Turns out that a smokey smell is not an unusual precursor to a migraine.  I get the same thing from time to time (but a lot less severe).  I wonder if that's what was going on with that woman? 

[Uncle Bubba]

You are assuming that having something to bitch and moan about ruined her day.  Sounds like she just really likes bitching and moaning self-righteously.

I thought of that, too. It was just so strange to see someone go from enjoying the time to pissed off at the world in a couple of shakes. And then stay that way the rest of her time there.

Of course, I am guilty of the coughing fits around smokers (not just smoke, but smokers), but it is rarely a flurry of coughing, unless I'm sick already.  Usually it's just a tightness in my chest and throat, a cough or two, and increased susceptibility to other triggers for a little while. 

It cuts both ways.  I really frickin' hate getting the dirty looks, like I somehow messed up some guy's day by being unable to contain a cough.  My father-in-law, of course, will blow smoke right in my face, simply to get the satisfaction of getting pissy at me for daring to cough.  And sure, I have issues with all kinds of smoke.  I can't go to state campgrounds on holidays anymore because of the pervasive smoke.  But no one gets offended when their campfire makes me cough.

Like most smokers I try very hard not to impose my habit on others when I'm in public. I've had people cough like that around me, then apologize and explain like you did that it's not a pissy way of saying they don't like smoking but that they're sensitive to it. When that's happened I've either moved farther away or put it out. I don't recall that having the smell on me has caused such, though. You're really sensitive to it. My sympathies. That has to suck out loud.

Your FIL could stand to have his attitude forcibly adjusted. But you already know that.

ETA:  On the phantom smoke smell:  My mother once had a headache on and off for a couple of years.  Very severe headache, that never entirely went away, and got really bad several times a week.  It was diagnosed as a sinus infection, but now I suspect it was migraines.  Turns out that a smokey smell is not an unusual precursor to a migraine.  I get the same thing from time to time (but a lot less severe).  I wonder if that's what was going on with that woman? 

First I've heard of that one. Could be. My mother gets migraines and her indicator of one coming on is fragmented vision, "...like I'm looking through cracked glass." she says.

I've had a headache for a week and thought I was going to lose my mind because of it. I don't think I could stand having one for two years.

[Strings]

I can understand being sensitive to it. However, when it causes you to go into a racking cough when a lit cigarette is 100 yds or more downwind, I'd say you have a psychological problem...

I try to be as polite as possible (except with my mom-in-law: she LIKES second-hand smoke). But there are limits...