Magic vs. prayer

[Perd Hapley]

Most folks claiming to do magick often involve deities or spirits, not just on their own accord.  Some claim to do it all themselves, not many.  I'm failing to see how this is substantially different than prayer.  It's asking for supernatural intervention.  Sometimes completely with no desired activity on the practitioners' part, sometimes for assistance with some activity on the practitioners' part, sometimes for guidance on some decision making. 

Thanks for bringing up other kinds of magic. I'm just going by how you and Terry have described it. I was thinking of magic as involving certain prescribed actions or words that would bring about a desired result. Do you think that is a correct understanding? To me, that seems different than Christian prayer, because there is no reliance on actions to be performed, or a script to be read. Or if these elements are present, it would be incorrect to think of them as mechanistically causing a result. They are a just a guide.

If there is such a substantial difference, why do I hear variations of "God helps those who help themselves", "Have to meet God half-way", etc on a regular basis?  Is that not at least partially conceding that often some action is required on behalf of the Christian, and not just to expect God to do all of the work?

I don't think that usually refers to prayer, it just means that people shouldn't sit around and expect everything to work out for them.

Neither can be shown to have an effect in the material world in any controlled, scientifically rigorousness test.

I recall hearing from time to time, about studies that show a benefit to prayer, but I think those usually refer to people's feelings. Are you including the well-being of the petitioner, or the peace of mind of a person that knows people are praying for them? Or not?

If you refer to more concrete results, then I don't think the Christians will have any argument with that. We don't see causation as the purpose of prayer.

[230RN]

Nick1911:

Neither can be shown to have an effect in the material world in any controlled, scientifically rigorousness test.

Depends on the level of "rigor," or confidence level you want to see.  Remember, we're not talking about the world of chemistry or physics, where probabilities approach certainty.

Me:

The difficulty here is that such things as I discussed as similarities v differences in "Magic v Prayer" rarely reach statistical significance, commonly defined as rejecting the null hypotheses with a confidence level of P<0.05 or P<0.01 (depending on how conservative the researcher is.)

Note that these confidence levels usually used are  chosen arbitrarily.   

There is nothing theoretical barring the use of lower confidence levels.  The "oh-five" level and the "oh-one" levels* are mainly "publication levels," below which experimental results don't get published. **

To a scientist who commonly uses the more restrictive P<.0.01, an experimenter who uses P<0.05 might be considered "unscientific."  (Joke, but with a serious edge.)

Bear in mind that statistical testing of null hypotheses is a well-recognized and scientific technique for seeking knowledge.***  However, it is not like in the world of physics, where the results of many experiments have a probability of 1.00 of coming out as predicted.  Mix vinegar with baking soda and you will get a fizz with a probability of P=1.00000000000.  Put one Volt across a one Ohm resistor and the current through it will be one Ampere, excluding instrumental error.

The problem we have in much of this discussion is where we want to set our confidence level in rejecting the null hypothesis that "there is no difference between praying (or using spells) to achieve a result and not praying (or using spells)."  Some prefer to choose certainty, P=1.00. The difficulty in choosing P=1.00 is that one will miss a lot of information in many experiments --such as in testing Prayer or Magic. 

Beyond saying that, we would have to conduct a review of inferential statistics, which I am not willing to present here.

And, as I mentioned, if Gandalf could call lightning from the sky with P=1.00, we would not be having this discussion.

Terry, 230RN

* For one-tailed tests
** Excepting where the scientist finds "no statistically-significant difference" between the treated and untreated groups, and then claims that there is no difference.  This is a gross logical error, but is repeated time and time again.  Simply because there is "no statistically-significant difference" does not mean there is no difference.  It's just that any differences there might be do not show up at the confidence level chosen by the researcher.
*** Originally, statistical testing was developed in agriculture, to determine whether one crop grew "better" than another crop treated differently.  Google {"blaise pascal" + statistics}.

[De Selby]

There are some Christian churches that, like the early germanic hordes, clearly see prayer as a kind of magic.  They pray for results.

Others, like revdisks Muslim example, see it as a way of accepting gods will.  (Muslims use that phrase to mean "if god wills it", to imply that if god doesn't will it, it won't happen.)

[230RN]

Quote from RevDisk:

Most folks claiming to do magick often involve deities or spirits, not just on their own accord.  Some claim to do it all themselves, not many.  I'm failing to see how this is substantially different than prayer.  It's asking for supernatural intervention.

Quote from The artist formerly known as fistful:

I was thinking of magic as involving certain prescribed actions or words that would bring about a desired result. Do you think that is a correct understanding?

I think it should be pointed out that many neo-pagans think that invocation of (or, if you will, "praying to") dieties is merely another aspect of using Tools to aid one's natural magic.  Thus, it is permissible to create one's own dieties to suit a particular purpose.  The recently-invented goddess "Squat," for instance, is the Goddess of Parking Spots.  Can't find suitable parking? 

Then invoke the goddess Squat.

And, similarly, the goddess Tablena is the Goddess of Restaurant Tables.

Can't get a restaurant table?

Hey, invoke Tablena.

Of course, a twenty dollar bill in the headwaiter's palm helps, too.  Talk about "putting wings on your invocation!"



Note that invocation of a diety does not necessarily  involve "praying to" a deity, although sometimes things similar to praying occur (chants, rituals, poems, etc.).  This is kind of subtle and hard to explain.  What "invoking" a deity means is to create or use a pre-established imaginary entity to focus one's thoughts on a desired outcome.

And the chants, rituals, and even doggerel poems are, themselves, also Tools.  The formalized ones, to many neo-pagans, merely allow groups of people to get and be  "in synch," which also helps the concentration.  Besides, they're fun.

But many pagans are "Solitaire," which means they don't necessarily participate in public rituals or formal covens per se.  This allows them a greater flexibility in their Magick. 

For myself, a Solitaire, I haven't recited the Goddess Chant for years.  Maybe I will tonight:

"Isis, Astarte, Diana, Hecate, Demeter, Kali, Inanna"

Hey, I got an idea. Maybe I'll add Squat and Tablena to that.  No priests or ministers around to tell me no, and my High Priestess would get a laugh out of it, so...

Isis, Astarte, Diana, Hecate, Demeter, Kali, Inanna, Squat, Tablena...



Terry, 230RN

[Perd Hapley]

There are some Christian churches that, like the early germanic hordes, clearly see prayer as a kind of magic.  They pray for results.

I wonder if you wouldn't mind explaining the prayer of the German hordes. Also, what do you mean by "praying for results"? I think most Christians do, including myself. The question is whether they see the prayer as a cause of the result. If the latter, then I would agree that many Christians have this misunderstanding.

[BlueStarLizzard]

Terry, i'm not an anything, but...

I'm definatly invocing Squat next time I'm looking for a parking space downtown....
  

[De Selby]

I wonder if you wouldn't mind explaining the prayer of the German hordes. Also, what do you mean by "praying for results"? I think most Christians do, including myself. The question is whether they see the prayer as a cause of the result. If the latter, then I would agree that many Christians have this misunderstanding.

The earliest Germanic Christians, like clovis, thought of Christian prayer as akin to their pre-christian rituals. They thought praying before battle would give them magical advantages.  There are interesting drawings of Jesus in full Germanic warrior regalia, aiming bows and other weapons, from that period.

Itd be helpful to clarify what we mean by prayer causing results - does it mean "if the prayer had not been said, the miracle wouldn't have happened", or does it mean "the prayer was the whole cause of the miracle"?

I think you will find both in modern Christians, but much, much more of the first.