Author Topic: Is straightforward honesty a dying practice?  (Read 5963 times)

BrokenPaw

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Is straightforward honesty a dying practice?
« on: July 15, 2005, 03:44:57 AM »
Background nutshell:  BrokenMa and I are the keepers of a small, eclectic-path Grove that we have opened up to the pagan community in our area because, well, there aren't too many places nearby that are safe, secure, private, full of trees, and owned by someone who would allow a bunch of pagans to gather every full moon, quarter, and cross-quarter.  So.  By acclamation of our members we are the Elders of the Grove, and as such we act in something of a ministerial/counseling capacity for several of them.

Of late, communication among many of them has broken down, because no one will be honest with anyone else.  For example (and using fake names for illustrative purposes), if Bill has a problem with Mary, Bill doesn't tell Mary.  Instead, he gritches about Mary to me, and to BrokenMa[0], but at another time he also gritches to Susan.  Bob, who happens to have been sitting nearby, overhears Bill talking to Susan, and confides in his friend Jane that he's concerned about Bill, because of the situation he overheard.  Jane, being the fix-it type, runs to Mary, and tells Mary that Bill is saying foo, bar, and baz about her.  

Jane, having gotten the story second-hand, gets salient parts of the story wrong, and now Mary is mad at Bill, not for what Bill said, but for what Jane thinks Bill said, because she heard it from Bob.

So rather than going and talking to Bill directly, Mary goes to talk to her best friend Susan, and Susan (who doesn't know that Mary learned about things from Jane's interception of what Bob was saying), pretends not to know what's going on with Bill, because she doesn't want Mary to think that she (Susan) is talking about her behind her back.  

Then, Susan takes it upon herself to go castigate Bill for what Mary told her (because now she "officially" knows something because Mary told her).  But because Mary's version (which is also Susan's version) isn't actually what Bill originally said, Bill gets upset at Mary for accusing him of things that he didn't say, and gets mad at Susan for telling Mary (which she didn't), and doesn't believe her when she denies telling anyone, since she's the only one he told.

And on, and on.  Confused yet?  I am.  And I know all of these people.

If someone has a problem with something I'm doing, I would much rather they come to me, and tell me what they think I'm doing, and give me a chance to either correct their perception, or realize they're right and apologize, or tell them that they'll have to cope with it because I'm doing what I'm doing because I think it's the right thing to do.

I don't particularly like confrontation myself, but I'd rather go to someone directly if I have an issue with them, then to ask Jill to tell Mike to beg Ed to have Julie pass them a note after fourth period.

That's how it all feels; like seventh grade.  In fact, my daughter came home from school one afternoon and told BrokenMa and me about a situation at school where two girls liked the same guy, but he liked a third girl, and his friends were trying to keep that from the girls' friends, and everyone was playing go-between and the he-said, she-said game, and it all sounded exactly like what my Grove members are doing.

Why won't people just talk to one another?  Clear the air?  Maybe even get angry, but at least for the right reasons?

Avoiding conflict to such an extent that it ultimately causes more, worse conflict makes no sense to me.  Then again, my element is Fire, and I'm preemptive by nature.

BrokenMa and I have talked about this for hours and hours on end, and we've suggested things to various individuals, like "if you have a problem with A because B told you he said C, talk to A, don't talk to D".  Some of them are choosing to back down and look at things logically, but some are obstinately refusing to calm down.  And I can't make them; I'm a counselor and de facto clergy, not a martinet.

I can't talk to any of them about any of them, because that would break confidences and would also contribute to the problem I'm trying to resolve.  So I vented here.  If you've read this far, thank you.  I know there's not much to be done but be a calming influence.  It's very difficult for me not to intervene.  But as they say, you can lead a horse to water...

Namaste,
-BP

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Moondoggie

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Is straightforward honesty a dying practice?
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2005, 05:20:05 AM »
Your situation is exactly why my beloved and I live the life we do....few friends, and very few social interactions.  We've dealt with people with agendas and zero interpersonal discipline most of our lives; Church, work, clubs, family.....Yuck!

We don't have many friends, but the one's we do have are worth it.

All of this stuff you're describing is a function of these folks individual personalities, and, in my experience folks personalities' very rarely change.  The troubles in your group will eventually lead to it's demise as those who don't want to deal with the crap withdraw.

Welcome to human interaction.  Sounds like even Pagans are subject to the Seven Deadly Sins.

Sorry that I don't have a better answer...I've never been able to figure it out either!  I just know that at the end of this period of existence I have no desire to come back for more.
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grampster

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Is straightforward honesty a dying practice?
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2005, 06:15:10 AM »
We just went through something similar last week with some friends of 10 years who are acting like Jr. High kids over their perception that we have shoved them onto the back burner due to other friends we have in the neighborhood.  Long story and boring unless you are involved.  Suffice to say, they invented stories in their mind about what they thought was going on or not going on, that was just pure fantasy.  But if you are a bit infantile, self centered, spoiled, and think your life is the only movie in town, it happens.   It's just amazing what sort of convoluted error in thinking or perception can occur in the minds of people.
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Fjolnirsson

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Is straightforward honesty a dying practice?
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2005, 07:16:52 AM »
Yep. For some reason, honesty isn't a value folks teach their kids anymore. At least that's how it seems. Nor is Straightforwardness. For the latter part, I blame our PC society. We are encouraged to avoid hurting others' feelings at all costs. I've always preferred for folks who have issue with me to approach me directly. I seem to put folks off when I do the same. Sorry, but I don't have enought time on this earth to dance around issues.
Just another symptom of our sick society.
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Big_R

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Is straightforward honesty a dying practice?
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2005, 07:36:41 AM »
Absolutely, honesty is dying, probably because of our litigous society (don't tell me the truth I don't want to hear or I'll sue you).  I guess that's why everyone I know understands that I'd rather be hated for what I am than loved for what I'm not.  Face to face is always best.

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The Rabbi

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Is straightforward honesty a dying practice?
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2005, 10:03:24 AM »
I would say, they're pagans, what can you expect?  But then I would get flamed to a crisp.
In Jewish law we have prohibitions on specifically the behavios you describe.  Recent attention to the prohibitions hasn'tt eliminated the problem but it has become better.
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jefnvk

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Is straightforward honesty a dying practice?
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2005, 10:24:09 AM »
Quote
Why won't people just talk to one another?
People seem to talk the talk, until it actually coes time to confront the person.

I think all honesty in general  is going down the crapper.
I still say 'Give Detroit to Canada'

Sindawe

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Is straightforward honesty a dying practice?
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2005, 12:49:43 PM »
Quote
I would say, they're pagans, what can you expect?  But then I would get flamed to a crisp.
And well you should! Geezzz, a learned man even thinking such.  What is the world coming to? Wink

As others have noted, it does seam that honesty is becoming unfashionable.  Of course, the behavior you've described BrokenPaw has been going on for centuries.  I suspect its something very basic in our make up, since lots of other primates do the same kind of thing.

Quote
It's very difficult for me not to intervene.  But as they say, you can lead a horse to water...
Any Lokians or other chaosists in your groups?  I'm sure that one of THEM would HAPPY to intervene.  Might not get the results you want, but it sure would be fun to watch.
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griz

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Is straightforward honesty a dying practice?
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2005, 12:50:55 PM »
I'm not sure if this counts as disagreement, but here goes. I would seperate straightforwardness and honesty. I'll bet the people you described would all consider themselves honest, and their lies are probably lies of ommission. Not that it excuses that behaviour or makes it any easier to deal with.

The reason I mention this is because I deal with a bunch of folks like that. I tend to ignore it, which (to them) makes me appear unfeeling or distant. It is pretty frustrating to hear that I was "mad" at someone, and the person who leaked the info will not say why the other person thinks I am mad. (I wasn't BTW) You know just typing this makes me feel like junior high again. :/
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RevDisk

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Is straightforward honesty a dying practice?
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2005, 05:16:32 PM »
Quote
Background nutshell:  BrokenMa and I are the keepers of a small, eclectic-path Grove that we have opened up to the pagan community in our area because, well, there aren't too many places nearby that are safe, secure, private, full of trees, and owned by someone who would allow a bunch of pagans to gather every full moon, quarter, and cross-quarter.  So.  By acclamation of our members we are the Elders of the Grove, and as such we act in something of a ministerial/counseling capacity for several of them.
Wish I could find a decent group around here.  Not too many good groves in central PA.  

I've seen it in more than a few pagan groups myself.   Similiar game to "office politics".  I try to avoid it whenever possible and refuse to take sides.   Griz makes an excellent point.   It's not a lack of honesty, it's a problem of ommission.  Instead of meeting their problems straight on, they try bottle it up and it always boils over.


Quote
I would say, they're pagans, what can you expect?  But then I would get flamed to a crisp.
Bwahaha.  Now, now, Rabbi.
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Standing Wolf

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Is straightforward honesty a dying practice?
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2005, 05:41:02 PM »
Quote
Avoiding conflict to such an extent that it ultimately causes more, worse conflict makes no sense to me.
Some people not only thrive upon conflict, but seem to require it the way most of us require food and water and sleep. If there's no conflict, they'll concoct it.
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

P95Carry

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Is straightforward honesty a dying practice?
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2005, 07:16:06 PM »
BP - you are on one of my favorite tacks - and I include within this other attributes such as integrity, respect etc.

These are signs of the times - regretably.  I and wife are like Moondoggie - we socialize little and have few true friends - it suits us that way.  We are not ''anti-social'' per se - just not ''hyper sociable'' - much of that is due to the falsehoods we see and hear - gossip, destructive and snide tendencies in most of those perypheral to our lives.

I often wish some folks would fess up to what they really are instead of pretending and living lives of deception.  It will tho I fear ever be thus - just a good thing to be ''choosey'' and also ''eyes-wide-open''. Smiley
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Matthew Carberry

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Is straightforward honesty a dying practice?
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2005, 08:25:43 PM »
4 words

sky clad

angry hornets

Then when everyone comes running to whine about the nest that busted open in the middle of the shindig, you lay down a little fire and brimstone (well, you know what I mean Wink )

Seriously though, use some of that honesty.  When you hear them gossiping (which is a "harm to others" and violates the whatever law (been awhile since my last witchy friend) ), call them on it.

Make it clear you will provide counsel only so long as they in turn behave as adults.  Throw that weight around.

If they want to act like children, treat them like children.
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« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2005, 10:35:36 PM »
In the past i have made good use of the "nuclear option" and simply sat every involved person in one place at one time and told each and every one of them that they were being idiots, and why. Either it works or it doesnt, but no matter what it will put a stop to the nonsense (and its usually kinda funny afterwards).

thorn

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« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2005, 01:13:55 AM »
to me Honesty is everything. seems like most people- not so much. it is hard to get people to be totally straight with you ever. there is a "system" i will describe in another thread soon i think.

i wasn't always Christian, but always honest to a fault, get it from my dad. we're all terrible liars in my family- so bad at it there is just no point in trying.

ok after reading all of it- anyone of them says another word about the other- me, i would tell them to stop there or know i am not going to "keep secrets". deal with it themselves, or i will tell the other person myself.
heheh, i am truoble like that, i've done similar repeatedly, and if i have something to say behind someone's back, i throw in "go ahead and tell them i said that!"

either that or just tell them to talk to the problem or not at all, you're sorry but you don't want to hear about it.


reminds me of something my crazy Uncle Joe said, slightly related- "don't eve ask one of my neighbors how they're doing- 'cause they'll tell you."

BrokenPaw

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Is straightforward honesty a dying practice?
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2005, 01:46:06 AM »
Sorry for not responding on my own thread sooner; I posted and then went out of town for the weekend, with no 'net access.  Oops.

Thank you all for your responses.  Griz, I take your point about the difference between straightforwardness and honesty.  However, lack of straightforwardness becomes dishonesty, in my opinion, when people would rather lie (as opposed to just keeping their mouths shut) rather than admit to having a view they don't wish to express.  And it's gotten to that stage.  People lying to people in order to "not hurt their feelings".  ::sigh::

Rabbi, with all due respect, speak not of that which you do not know.  We pagans have rules about this sort of thing as well, and I think that every faith is a glass house, so to speak, when it comes to the behaviour of some of its members.  

RevDisk,  I know it's a bit of a drive for you, but if you'd like to attend a festival at our Grove, PM me -- we have rules about new attendees (to limit the influx of certain local dangerous people), but I'm sure we could work something out. Smiley

Namaste,
-BP
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

Sindawe

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Is straightforward honesty a dying practice?
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2005, 08:39:30 AM »
Quote
I am Judeochristian. Highly so. I also identify strongly with the concept of being a 'chaosist' or 'Lokian' if that means spreading highly entertaining and appropriate chaos among deserving types.

What does that mean for me?
That you're deeply conflicted and hate your mother?  I dunno, I'm a microbiologist, not a shrink. Cheesy
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InfidelSerf

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Is straightforward honesty a dying practice?
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2005, 06:53:30 AM »
I think it has to do with (and pardon the phrase if its too harsh) the pusification of our society. http://www.kimdutoit.com/ee/index.php/essays/the_pussification_of_the_western_male/]Kim du Toit

Everyone likes to think of themselves as pacifists and think ANY form of confrontation is bad.  Thus the reason our court systems are full of junk lawsuits.  It's easier to ask someone else to verbalize your displeasure with another than for you to just buck up and confront them.  
People also don't know how to debate anymore.  Everything is an arguement to them.

I think the breakdown in honesty can also be attributed to the breakdown of our societies moral character.  Everything is relative now.

The whole if it feels good do it mentality
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K Frame

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Is straightforward honesty a dying practice?
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2005, 07:49:00 AM »
Straightforward honesty has really never existed.

It's a quaint concept that falls flat in the face of the reality of human nature.
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Harold Tuttle

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« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2005, 10:34:54 AM »
The only central PA pagan's i knew, used to ride Harleys and spent their Saturday nights, beating up the PSU campus patrol at Beaver Stadium's parking lot.

i guess they were followers of Loki
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SteveS

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Is straightforward honesty a dying practice?
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2005, 08:01:02 AM »
Quote from: Mike Irwin
Straightforward honesty has really never existed.

It's a quaint concept that falls flat in the face of the reality of human nature.
+ 1

In talking to my grandparents and my wife's grandparents, they don't recall a time when most people were open and honest with each other, as a general rule.  People were just as petty and sneaky then as they are now.  This isn't the case for all relationships, but I think that many people would just rather complain about others behind their backs, then honestly confront them.
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K Frame

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Is straightforward honesty a dying practice?
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2005, 08:15:58 AM »
Bingo, Steve.

I think far too many people look back to the past with rose colored glasses, thinking it to have been some sort of bucolic utopian ideal that has somehow been perverted by modern life.

Go back 100 years.

Wonderland, right?

How about political corruption that makes today's politicians look like pansies, robber barrons who make today's corporate executives look like saints, unbelievable racism, crime rates in urban areas that are unimaginable, unspeakable poverty, and all packed into an average lifespan of something akin to 45 years.


We like to think that everyone had a concept of personal honor in the days of yore.

But, in reality, it's simply one of those quaint fantasies that somehow springs to life because people aren't happy with today's prospects, and some how jump to the conclusion that things were so much simpler back when.
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RevDisk

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Is straightforward honesty a dying practice?
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2005, 02:08:21 AM »
Quote
Thank you all for your responses.  Griz, I take your point about the difference between straightforwardness and honesty.  However, lack of straightforwardness becomes dishonesty, in my opinion, when people would rather lie (as opposed to just keeping their mouths shut) rather than admit to having a view they don't wish to express.  And it's gotten to that stage.  People lying to people in order to "not hurt their feelings".  ::sigh::

Rabbi, with all due respect, speak not of that which you do not know.  We pagans have rules about this sort of thing as well, and I think that every faith is a glass house, so to speak, when it comes to the behaviour of some of its members.  

RevDisk,  I know it's a bit of a drive for you, but if you'd like to attend a festival at our Grove, PM me -- we have rules about new attendees (to limit the influx of certain local dangerous people), but I'm sure we could work something out.
Yea, lying is the line in the sand.  I have many views/opinions that I do not express.  I usually shrug off any inqueries in the more ah, unconventional ones I hold.  I have never lied about them.  I really don't see the need to do so.

Bwahaha, I think I qualify under "certain local dangerous people".   Wink

But I'll shoot ya an email anyways.  I generally avoid group rituals.   My "thing" is not condusive to most group practices.  Tho, I do always bring something special to the party.   I have a lovely bottle of Irish Bunratty meade that I've been saving for a proper occassion.  Smiley


Quote
The only central PA pagan's i knew, used to ride Harleys and spent their Saturday nights, beating up the PSU campus patrol at Beaver Stadium's parking lot.

i guess they were followers of Loki
Err, the motorcycle gang Pagans and the religious group are usually different folks.
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Werewolf

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Is straightforward honesty a dying practice?
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2005, 04:50:44 AM »
In business and politics straightforwardness is an absolute no-no. Honesty can and does get one in trouble.

I'm a very straightforward (blunt) person. I go right to the heart of any matter, don't pull punches and usually spare no feelings. I've had numerous people including two CEO's of 100,000+ employee companies tell me that is the reason I'm not sitting in an Executive VP or even CEO chair today. I lack tact - to use the phrase my friends and bosses have used. So my own life experience has convinced me that straightforwardness is an anti-success strategy.

As to honesty - again - my own life experience has convinced me that it is an anti-success strategy. I got fired once from a very high level job for admitting that I was the one that made a decision that cost the company money and prestige. I cetainly wasn't going to blame anyone that worked for or with me or try to push the blame up - that just doesn't match my value system. The VP who fired me out and out told me I was stupid for admitting that I'd made the decision. He said all I needed to do was just shut the hell up and say nothing. Still - not my style.

IRL - when's the last time an honest politician got elected.

Every time I catch a sales clerk giving me back too much change and I hand the overage back the look I get is one of "man you are one stupid SOB - you shoulda kept it".

IMO - honesty and straightforwardness will not stand one in good stead in contemporary US society. Friends may value those characteristics, society may pay lip service to them but the reality is that practicing both on a regular basis will get one in trouble.

Those characteristics might help get one into heaven though - assuming that the various religions aren't lying about that too...
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K Frame

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Is straightforward honesty a dying practice?
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2005, 08:10:19 AM »
"In business and politics straightforwardness is an absolute no-no. Honesty can and does get one in trouble."

In the company I work for lying will get your ass thrown out of the building faster than anything else. A few weeks ago we lost a very high level unit manager. Rumor is that he lied to the customer on the status of a project. There is an absolutely zero tolerance policy for it here.


"IMO - honesty and straightforwardness will not stand one in good stead in contemporary US society. Friends may value those characteristics, society may pay lip service to them but the reality is that practicing both on a regular basis will get one in trouble."

I don't give a damn about the rest of "contemporary society." Just because virtually everyone else is morally and ethically deficient/bankrupt doesn't mean that I either have to be, or will be.

I live in my skin. No one else lives in my skin with me. If they don't like/accept my values, then I have absolutely no time for them.
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