Author Topic: Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?  (Read 8827 times)

bunni

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Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?
« on: December 29, 2007, 12:36:59 PM »
I'm looking to purchase my first handgun and would like a 9mm for general plinking and practice. I'm looking for the lightest recoiling 9mm handgun I can afford. I don't want to go with a .22. I'd like to spend less than $700. I live in California. I'd prefer an auto-loader but am not ruling out revolvers.

With that out of the way... I've heard good things about the CZ 75 SP-01 and 9mm 1911s - does this include models like the Star Model B? Or would I be better off with a Springfield or Colt 1911 9mm for light recoil?   

Brad Johnson

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Re: Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2007, 12:39:29 PM »
Go for a heavy one.  Something all metal with plenty of meat on its bones.  Think along the lines of a Ruger P-89 or a Baby Eagle.

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Re: Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2007, 01:17:37 PM »
Try a few rentals out at a range, if thats possible.  Light recoil will be relative to how well the gun fits your hand.  Of what you just mentioned, all but the Star are good choices.  You really can't go wrong with a CZ or Springfield.  Colts are pricey, I'd avoid them.

From personal experience, the Beretta 92 fits all of your specs, and with a set of grips that you like, can fit just like a glove. Brad mentioned a Baby Eagle, which is a brick, but feels great and has little or no recoil.

Again, the biggest factor will be what fits you best, not necessarily which gun has the least possible recoil.  If the gun doesn't feel good in your hand, you won't enjoy shooting it no matter what.  How big are your hands?

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Re: Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2007, 01:26:36 PM »
You may want to try out a .45 acp.  I find the recoil from a .45 a lot more comfortable than a 9mm.

9mm is much cheaper to shoot though.

Also does it have to be a semi auto?  .38 special in a 4" service revolver is very mild.

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Re: Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2007, 01:27:35 PM »
Browning High Power  grin
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bunni

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Re: Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2007, 01:37:58 PM »
You may want to try out a .45 acp.  I find the recoil from a .45 a lot more comfortable than a 9mm.

9mm is much cheaper to shoot though.

Also does it have to be a semi auto?  .38 special in a 4" service revolver is very mild.



I've fired .38 special in a service revolver and that is exactly the feel I'm looking for, but in a 9mm autoloader.

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Re: Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2007, 01:47:10 PM »
You can find Stoeger Cougars for $350 around here, but I don't know about CA. All metal, light recoil, and reliable. All the Beretta tooling was moved to Turkey. Same gun, half the price.

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Re: Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2007, 02:22:40 PM »
Any full-size 9mm handgun is going to have mild recoil.

On paper, the lightest-recoiling will be whatever is heaviest, which normally means a steel-frame, full size handgun . . . a CZ75B or 1911 would probably fit this niche, as would one of the rare Beretta Billenniums. (Which, unfortunately, don't just break your $700 price limit, but demolish it.)

When it comes to felt recoil, a polymer-frame gun that fits your hand well may be exceedingly comfortable to shoot - a Glock, for example.

I've got Glocks, a Beretta 92 Elite, and BHPs . . . I find the recoil of a 9mm to be quite mild in all of them; my petite (5'1") 78-year old mother (she's NOT a regular shooter!!!) has no problem with 9mm recoil in any of these pistols, though the Beretta's grip is too large for her.
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Re: Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2007, 02:33:57 PM »
Also bullet weight will have a lot to do with it.  Try the heavier bullets, like 147gr subsonic.
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Re: Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2007, 02:53:24 PM »
My SP-01 has less felt than my 9mm Springfield - it's five or six ounces heavier, I believe.
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Re: Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2007, 03:50:48 PM »

My Ruger SP-101 in 9mm is the easiest on recoil of any I have shot. Unfortunately they are rather hard to come by.

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Re: Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2007, 03:55:02 PM »
To summarize the following article, three thing will effect recoil (real and felt/percived)

1. Weight of gun- More weight less recoil, less weight more recoil.
2. Weight of ejecta/projectile - More weight=more recoil, less weight=less recoil.
3. Speed of ejecta/projectile - More speed=more recoil, less weight=less recoil.  

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WARNING MATH INVOLVED IN FOLLOWING ARTICLE !!!  grin

Quote
By Wm. C. Davis, Jr.

   Sir lsaac Newton in 1686 published a treatise called "The Mathematical Principles of Natural Science," and in it he set forth three fundamental laws of nature which govern the relationship between force and motion. The science of ballistics, and indeed the whole science of mechanical physics, are based on these three laws. Since this is not a lesson in mechanics, we will not dwell on Newton's three laws of motion here. It can be shown, however, that Newton's second and third laws of motion lead to the principle of conservation of momentum. From this principle, it follows that the momentum imparted to the gun upon firing must always be equal in magnitude, and opposite in direction, to the momentum imparted to the bullet and the powder gases that are expelled from the bore. Since the momentum of a body is the product of multiplying its mass by its velocity, the fundamental equation of recoil can be expressed as follows:

   MG * VG = MB * VB + MC * VC

      where MG = mass of the gun
                VG = velocity of the gun
                MB = mass of the bullet
                VB = velocity of the bullet
                MC = mass of the powder charge
                VC = velocity of the powder charge

   The masses of the gun, the bullet and the powder charge are easily determined by weighing them. The velocity of the bullet is easily measured by a chronograph, and the velocity of the gun can be determined by various means, the most convenient of which is the recoil pendulum. The only quantity not directly measurable in the fundamental recoil equation is therefore the effective velocity of the powder charge, VC. Since the other quantities can all be measured, their values can be substituted in the equation, and the value of VC can thus be found for any particular experiment. This has been done a great many times, for a wide variety of guns. For a variety of cannon, it has been found that the value of VC is about 4700 f.p.s., and that number is sometimes quoted in formulas for calculating the recoil of small arms as well, but experience shows that it is too high for small arms.
   Experiments carried out by Hitchcock and Kent at Aberdeen Proving Ground in 1929 for various .30 cal. guns and loads showed values from 3710 to 4115 f.p.s. for VC. The British Textbook of Small Arms (1929) reports measurements made on the .303 British rifle with Mark VII ammunition which gave a value of 3725 f.p.s. for VC. I made recoil measurements on some standard .30 cal. rifles and some experimental .22 cal. high-velocity rifles at Aberdeen Proving Ground in 1953, and found values of VC from 3920 f.p.s. to 4100 f.p.s. I have since had occasion to make such measurements on a 7 mm Rem. Mag. rifle with various loads, and found values of VC from about 3700 f.p.s. to 4300 f.p.s. Col. E.H. Harrison wrote in the NRA Firearms and Ammunition Fact Book that the evidence he had studied suggested a typical value of about 4000 f.p.s, for VC in small arms, and indeed that agrees very well with the data that I have seen for guns firing smokeless-powder charges. There is not much reliable information available on experiments made with blackpowder loads, but such information as there is suggests a velocity of about 2000 f.p.s. for VC. In the following equations, 2000 should therefore be used instead of 4000 for the value of VC when calculating the recoil of blackpowder loads. This does not imply that blackpowder loads produce less recoil than do smokeless loads, as can be seen from working out examples. Blackpowder loads produce greater recoil than do smokeless loads that give the same muzzle velocity to the same projectile, because the use of blackpowder requires that a much heavier charge be used.
   It should be noted that formulas sometimes quoted for calculating recoil have set the velocity of the powder gases equal to some constant, such as 1.5, multiplied by the muzzle velocity of the bullet.
   However, that agrees well with experiment only for muzzle velocities of about 2600 to 2700 f.p.s., in which case 1.5 times the muzzle velocity is about 4000 f.p.s. That approach is evidently flawed in principle as well, since it implies that shortening the barrel, which would reduce the muzzle velocity of the bullet, would also reduce the escape velocity of the powder gases, whereas that manifestly is not the case. Shortening the barrel increases the pressure of the gases at the muzzle, which would serve to increase rather than to reduce the velocity at which they escape from the bore. In the fundamental recoil equation, the term MG * VC is the momentum imparted to the gun, while MB * VB and MC * VC are the momenta of the bullet and the powder charge respectively. The momentum of a body is numerically equal to the impulse which produced the momentum, and the term MG * VG is customarily called the recoil impulse, represented by the letter "I", so the equation becomes:

   I = MB*VB + MC*VC, where I is the recoil impulse.

   If 4000 f.p.s. is taken as the effective velocity of the escaping powder gases, and constants are introduced to adjust for the units of measurements customarily used, the fundamental recoil equation for smokeless-powder loads becomes:

   I = (WB*VB + 4000*WC)/225400

   where I = recoil impulse in lb.-sec.
         WB = weight of the bullet in grains
          VB = velocity of the bullet in f.p.s.
         WC = weight of the charge in grains

   The recoil impulse depends essentially upon the performance of the ammunition, and it is independent of the weight of the gun. It is the basis on which the recoil characteristics of different cartridges and loads are sometimes compared, uncomplicated by consideration of the differing weights of guns. It is also the fundamental equation from which other characteristics of recoil are derived. There are two other characteristics of recoil which are perhaps more important in determining the "kick" or sensation of recoil. One is the free-recoil velocity, which can be found from the following equation:

   VG = 32.2*1/WG

      where VG = velocity of the gun in f.p.s.
               WG = weight of the gun in lbs.

   The free-recoil velocity of the gun can make it unpleasant to shoot, even if the recoil impulse is not excessive. The British Textbook of Small Arms (1929) says that, for guns weighing 6 to 7 lbs. a free-recoil velocity of 15 f.p.s. "&has long been established as a maximum above which gun-headache is sure to ensue." That is also the reason that the recoil of a light gun may be perceived as a sharp and uncomfortable jab to the shoulder, whereas a heavier gun producing equal free-recoil energy is perceived as producing a slower push that is not so uncomfortable. The third characteristic of recoil, and perhaps the most meaningful single predicter of the "kick" sensation, is the free-recoil energy. It is found from the following equation:

   EG = WG*VG2/64.4

   where EG is the free-recoil energy in ft.-lbs.

   It should be mentioned that the "kick" or sensation of recoil is somewhat affected by factors not taken into account in these calculations. In particular, autoloading guns often produce a much softer "kick" sensation than do fixed-breech guns. This is because the spring-loaded recoiling parts are being driven rearward relative to the remainder of the gun during recoil, and their rearward momentum is not transferred to the buttstock or grip of the gun very suddenly, but is "fed back" more slowly during the recoil and counter-recoil movement of the spring-loaded parts. This is a real physical effect, and it can be confirmed by suitable instrumentation. It is sometimes supposed that the use of a "slower" powder can also soften the "kick" sensation, but that is debatable, because the burning of the powder is completed, in any case, before the gun has moved more than about 1/10", and thereafter, the speed of powder burning could make no difference in the movement of the gun. There are also some physical factors such as the drop of the stock, the slope of the comb, the size and resiliency of the buttplate, the security of the shooter's grip on the fore-end, or the size and shape of the grips on a handgun, which affect the sensation of recoil. Finally, of course, there are some purely psychological factors which may strongly affect the subjective perception of "kick", apart from any real physical phenomena. A shooter who has been thoroughly convinced that his gun will not "kick" hard may perceive after firing it that he has hardly been "kicked" at all, whereas a shooter expecting to be "kicked" very hard may fire the same gun and perceive that his worst expectations were fulfilled. This gives rise to countless differences of opinion, and some vociferous arguments, about the relative recoil effects of various guns, cartridges, and recoil-reducing devices.
   The accompanying tables list recoil characteristics for some typical rifle, handgun and shotgun loads. For readers who remember their algebra, the equations above can readily be solved for other guns and loads in which they are interested. A simple pocket calculator will do all of the necessary arithmetic. For those who have access to a personal computer, the task is made easier by the accompanying computer program. It is written in the BASIC dialect used by "IBM-compatible" computers. Readers are hereby granted permission to copy the program for their own personal use, but it is copyright material, and copying it for commercial exploitation is forbidden by copyright law. If you are not familiar with copying and running programs in BASIC, you should read the article titled "How to Compute in BASIC''', found elsewhere in NRA Firearms and Ammunition Fact Book.
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Re: Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2007, 04:27:22 PM »
Thanks for the math warning, whew!! that was close...  laugh
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Re: Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2007, 05:32:39 PM »
I know some of the recoil-sensitive persuasion have full-sized 1911 Government Models in 9mm Luger/Parabellum.  If I remember correctly, Art Eatman has one - perhaps he would be a good source to ask.
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Re: Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2007, 06:50:09 PM »
Under $700? That's the kicker right there. It probably puts a 9mm 1911 out of the running unless you can find one used; $550 for base/cheap gun + 200+ upper assembly, I'd imagine, and you'd still probably have to do a little extra to get it to work.

I'd say get one of the following (first ones being my suggestions - all steel assembly):

CZ 75B (should be able to find a new one for under $500)
Browning/FN/FM Hi-Power (around $600 new)
Ruger P01 (not sure of cost)
Beretta 92 (I hate them, not sure how much they cost)

Again, I'd say get the CZ. (Oh, and the CZ has a $280 .22LR upper assembly available for it, so you can practice real cheap with the same platform)

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Re: Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2007, 08:24:59 PM »
My CZ 75B has pretty light recoil, especially with low powered practice loads.  It's all metal, and it's just great Smiley

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Re: Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2007, 04:47:24 AM »
Ruger P89, Beretta 92, Taurus PT92. They are all heavy, with relatively long barrels, and in the price range.

By the way, the physics in the quoted article is wrong. The charge becomes propellant gases which impart equal momentum to both bullet and gun. (As written, the article essentially violates Newton's third law.) Momentum of gun and bullet are equal, so

p=mV=Mu

where m, M are masses of bullet and gun respectively, and V,u are velocities of bullet and gun respectively.

The trick is that kinetic energies are Ebullet=mV^2/2=p^2/(2m) and Egun=Mu^2/2=p^2/(2M). So, although they carry equal momentum, the bullet gets most of the imparted energy:

Ebullet/(Ebullet + Egun)=M/(m+M)
Egun/(Ebullet +Egun)=m/(m+M)

That's why heavier guns "kick" less with the same ammunition.

280plus

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Re: Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2007, 06:40:29 AM »
See, and I thought it was just because they were heavier...  grin
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Re: Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2007, 07:01:27 AM »
You may want to try out a .45 acp.  I find the recoil from a .45 a lot more comfortable than a 9mm.

9mm is much cheaper to shoot though.

Also does it have to be a semi auto?  .38 special in a 4" service revolver is very mild.



I've fired .38 special in a service revolver and that is exactly the feel I'm looking for, but in a 9mm autoloader.
Good luck - that'll be a difficult search. Plain 38's out of a revolver are practically recoilless in my experience especially in a L frame S&W. In an autoloade eliminating perceived recoil is very difficult (even with a 22) because of slide action.

That said: Like another poster mentioned any all metal semi will adequately tame the recoil of just about any 9mm load. Personally in your price range I'd recommend a CZ-75B. You can pick one up new for a bit over $400 depending on where you live. Very accurate and easy to maintain.

On the other hand a basic Sig P226 in 9mm can be had for a little over $750 NIB (in OKC anyway). As reliable as CZ's are (I have 4) they still don't stack up to the reliability of a Sig. The Sig is not as accurate as the CZ IMO though.

Add it all up and based on what you've said the CZ is probably the way to go but think about the Sig too. Might be a better choice in the long run.
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Re: Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2007, 07:04:42 AM »
I have a beretta 92, sig 226. and a hk uspc. Out of the three the sig has the least recoil. Imo  You should be able to find any of these for under 700. The sig weighs 33 oz, the beretta 34.4 oz, the hk 23.5.
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Re: Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2007, 08:03:41 AM »
Best bet that meets all criteria:
CZ 75B in 9mm or the CZ 75SA in 9mm

I just sold a buddy's 30th Anniv Edition for ~$425.  If I would have had that much in the budget for toys, I woulda bought it myself.

Best bet that pushes cost rqt:
Used 1911 in 9mm or .38 Super
All the guys I know who own 1911 .38Supers also fire 9mm outta them.  I can't recall if it is just a spring change or spring+mag, or spring+mag+bbl change.

Used Browning/FN Hi-Power in 9mm is a wild card.

I like SA autos or autos capable of cocked & locked and avoid Berettas & such like the plague.
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Re: Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2007, 08:06:55 AM »
Quote
By the way, the physics in the quoted article is wrong. The charge becomes propellant gases which impart equal momentum to both bullet and gun. (As written, the article essentially violates Newton's third law.) Momentum of gun and bullet are equal, so

p=mV=Mu

where m, M are masses of bullet and gun respectively, and V,u are velocities of bullet and gun respectively.

Maybe my physics degree is getting in the way, but IIRC, the mass of the propellant charge/combustion gas is still being sent out the muzzle behind the bullet (or even around and forward of the bullet as it departs), because mass is ALWAYS conserved whether it's unburned WW231 or propellant gas. That's why the powder charge has been factored into free recoil equations since Christ was a corporal.  Wink
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Re: Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2007, 10:00:28 AM »
I'll toss in Charles Daly's/FEG's copy of the Hi Power as a choice.  Inexpensive and seem a pretty faithful copy.   I sold one and the customer loves it.  Should be in the $300 range.
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Re: Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2007, 12:15:41 PM »
Maybe my physics degree is getting in the way, but IIRC, the mass of the propellant charge/combustion gas is still being sent out the muzzle behind the bullet (or even around and forward of the bullet as it departs), because mass is ALWAYS conserved whether it's unburned WW231 or propellant gas. That's why the powder charge has been factored into free recoil equations since Christ was a corporal.  Wink

I also have a physics degree and believe that the center of mass of the propellant cannot be moving with respect to the earth in the case of normal recoil-operated pistols. My analysis is especially true for blowback and open-breach systems, and probably not so much for short-recoil systems that fire from locked breach.The inclusion makes sense when firing from a flintlock or a bolt-action gun, where the gas is forced to expand in one direction only. The same is also the case in rocket propulsion, where the gained momentum to the rocket comes from the gain of momentum in the opposite direction of preferential expansion of the gases backwards.

The reason why I mentioned the third law is because it ensures that the gas acts with the same force in gun and bullet as well, whence the equality of momentum imparted to gun and bullet, so long as the bullet is still in the muzzle.

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Re: Lightest recoiling 9mm handgun, what is it?
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2007, 01:31:17 PM »
Boy, ya post one math equation and the physics nerds come out of the woodwork like cockroaches..... rolleyes

While the formula may not be exact. my statement that:

Quote
1. Weight of gun- More weight=less recoil, less weight=more recoil.
2. Weight of ejecta/projectile - More weight=more recoil, less weight=less recoil.
3. Speed of ejecta/projectile - More speed=more recoil, less weight=less recoil. 


Conforms to all of Fig's smarter brother Laws of Motion.

But I guess I should have been clearer to the OP.

It depends.  Not only on the gun but also on the loads you shoot.   With my 1911 if I shoot 230gr FMJ military loads it takes me longer to get back on target, then when I shoot my 200gr HP SD loads.  (Cleaner also....)

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