Author Topic: The plague controversies  (Read 3185 times)

Iain

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The plague controversies
« on: January 12, 2008, 07:19:05 AM »
I've spent an interesting Saturday early afternoon pottering around on the internet.

It all started here at a blog called Retrospectacle. From Part 1 on the Black Death:

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It was a disease of rodents and was spread by their fleas. As the rats died, the fleas would frantically look for new hosts, jumping on human beings. Later experiments illustrated how virulent the Plague really was: mice died after being infected with just three bacilli, and fleas can disgorge up to 24,000 in one bite.

Three main 'types' of Plague were then identified-- bubonic, septicaemic, and pneumonic--which varied by the entrance of the infection. Bubonic plague entered a human via the lymph system and was characterized by 'buboes' (swelling of lymph nodes). Septicaemic plague resulted when the bacillus entered the bloodstream directly, and was almost always fatal. Pneumonic plague was the most deadly, and could be acquired without a flea-bite, by breathing the bacillus into the lungs.

There is some recent controversy that Pasteurella pestis is not the actual bacillus involved in the Black Plague. But, you'll have to wait until Part 2

From the comments under Part 1 I learn that my primary school teachers probably lied to me. It seems the idea that the nursery rhyme 'Ring a Rosie' has to do with the Black Death or the Great Plague is actually a 20th century idea - see more at Snopes

(From there the disputed wikipedia article on Ring a Rosie led me to other 'explanations' of nursery rhymes, the idea that cockle shells in Mary Mary quite contrary has to do with the pilgrimmage icon in Roman Catholicism (the Mary being Mary I of England) seems particularly odd, I'm fairly certain it is scallop shells that are associated with the pilgrimmage to Santiago de Compostela)

On to Part 2 from Shelley:

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In Part One, I mentioned that the main scientific consensus regarding the cause of the Black Death was a particularly nasty (and fast-acting) bacteria called Y. pestis, which is responsible for bubonic plague. However, there exist a few alternative theories that scientists have offered over the years. Specifically, that while the modern-day bouts of plague are indeed Y. pestis, the widespread deaths in the 14th century were not from bubonic plague but from anthrax or an Ebola-like virus.

I recommend the rest of that blog entry for an overview of the arguments for and against these other proposed causes of black death. Norman Cantor and anthrrax I will return to. Part of her conclusion:

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Despite these theories, most epidemiologists and plague historians agree that Y. pestis is still the best explanation of the widespread deaths during the Black Plague of medieval Europe. The remains of some of the victims of the plague have confirmed that Y. pestis was active during that time-- dental pulp from a plague cemetery in Montpellier, France confirmed DNA from Y. pestis and were negative for anthrax.

To return to Cantor - a medievalist (rather than an epidemiologist) he posits that the plague in Europe doesn't match what might be expected of Y. pestis and proposes anthrax as a alternative. So I had a look around on google for Norman Cantor and his plague hypothesis and found this:

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The Black Death? A timely topic? Well, yes - if you consider this 14th-century catastrophe to be a dry run for our experience with “mad-cow disease” or foot-and-mouth. Cantor seems to adopt this cheerful perspective, and although In the Wake of the Plague purports to be a historical analysis, the reader is never certain whether it is about the breakdown of medieval society or the plight of 21 st-century rural folk in Devon...

...By reading history backwards, Cantor succeeds in unearthing a number of remarkable parallels between our unhappy experience with BSE and HIV/Aids and the medieval Black Death. However, these astonishing parallels appear to be the product of the modern cultural narrative of fear, rather than of any historical discoveries. Using imaginative speculation, Cantor offers an analysis of the plague, which resonates with contemporary concerns about microbes jumping from one species to another. The author questions the historical consensus that regards bubonic plague as being behind the Black Death. He raises the hypothesis that the culprit was not only bubonic plague but also anthrax, a virulent, anti-- humanoid form of cattle disease. There is no scientific evidence to support this thesis, and Cantor makes no attempt to present any hard facts.

That's a review of Cantor's book by Frank Furedi. Fascinating, Furedi reviews the book from the position that Cantor has gone against scientific and historical consensus and offered little evidence, in fact that Cantor's analysis is tainted by modern concerns (the thread the other day about preparing for 'inevitable Asian flu' springs to mind.)

Did anyone click on the wikipedia link about Frank Furedi? Because if they had they'd discover that Furedi was a leading light in the Revolutionary Communist Party of Great Britain (now defunct). Don't be fooled, it seems they are not what they seem, in fact they seem to have morphed into a pro-business libertarian movement who are associated with the (sued into non-existence) Living Marxism magazine and Spiked and Martin Durkin and the Great Global Warming Swindle and here I stop.

I'm going for a walk.

By the way - most recent plague associated death in the US? Plague is the probable cause of death of a National Park Service employee at Grand Canyon National Park dated 9 November 2007. Don't be autopsying any dead mountain lions this weekend.
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roo_ster

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Re: The plague controversies
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2008, 12:29:26 PM »
One of the two non-fic books I am currently reading is Armies of Pestilence* by the obnoxious athiest RS Bray. 

Bray agrees with the scholarship that y pestis was the culprit, but that only bubonic was critter-to-human and that pneumonic and septicemic were human-to-human due to the routes and speed with which the disease spread.

He believes that the reason we have not seen another y pestis pandemic is due to:
1. y pestis genetic mutation
2. Human genetic mutation
3. Culling of those human lines susceptible to y pestis during the multitude of plagues from 14th cent until 18th cent


*  He is obnoxious due to deeper personality defects, but his atheism allows his "I'm gonna die friendless" personality an unique outlet. 

The book is a 3 star effort, best summed up by the amazon.com 3-star reviews here:
http://www.amazon.com/Armies-Pestilence-Effects-Pandemics-History/dp/0718829492

The following is a good nutshell:
"I would not recommend this book to someone looking for an introduction to disease history; however, if you are well-versed in general history and already know a bit about diseases, you will find it worth a read."

The 5-star reviewer is smoking crack.
Regards,

roo_ster

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Scout26

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Re: The plague controversies
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2008, 06:17:47 PM »
Several years ago I read a book about the Black Death which basically said the it was different from the other plagues that swept through Europe roughly every 20 twenty years in that it had to be a hemorrhagic disease due to the speed the disease spread compared to Bubonic plague because of the human-to-human contact vs slower rodent/insect-to-human contact.  Previous plagues you could chart their movement from east to west over the course of a year or more.  The Black Death swept through Europe in under 6 months, IIRC.   

And yes the human race was culled during those plagues so that those with natural immunities survived making recurrences less deadly.  But newer palgues (1918 Flu Pandemic, anyone) keep coming.  It's just like the old Armor vs Warhead race. 

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Bogie

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Re: The plague controversies
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2008, 08:38:28 PM »
Breaking news: George W. Bush blamed for black plague - racist disease genetically engineered and time-transported via secret Haliburton technology.
 
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Manedwolf

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Re: The plague controversies
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2008, 10:29:18 PM »
We see how quickly the old plaguing problems can return when we forget why we used a certain science to combat them, too.

Now that DDT has completely fallen out of use, bedbugs are making a serious resurgence. Even in the finest hotels, there's infestations, and they're almost impossible to get rid of.

Unless you give the walls a mild coating of DDT, at levels that are harmless to humans, but will eradicate the bugs completely. They've found this again, recently, in tropical areas, that it works.

But...DDT is banned in the US, so the bedbug problem will continue to get worse.


Bogie

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Re: The plague controversies
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2008, 10:02:10 AM »
For that matter, have you seen those "nothing but nets" commercials? Where they're asking you to donate so they can ship mosquito nets to Africa?

I'm wondering - people cannot LIVE under mosquito nets. Why not just kill mosquitos? Oh, wait... That'd use DDT, and the same hand-wringers would completely freak out...
 
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Paddy

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Re: The plague controversies
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2008, 10:19:37 AM »
It's ok to help someone once in a while, Bogie.  Honest, it won't hurt you a bit.  The nets are treated with insecticide, which kills mosquitos.

Bogie

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Re: The plague controversies
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2008, 10:31:15 AM »
Well, they don't say that on the commercials.

And I'll bet that if they _did_ say that on their commercials, they'd have their donations from the hand-wringing folks seriously drop off... I mean, sheesh - they're talking like all they have to do is have nets. I'm guessing that people are not supposed to venture outside them.
 
Kill the 'skeeters. Simple solution.
 
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Paddy

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Re: The plague controversies
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2008, 10:42:16 AM »
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Kill the 'skeeters. Simple solution.

You might want to contact UC Davis. They have a number scientists working in a program for the prevention  and control of malaria in Africa.  Maybe they haven't thought of that solution.

BrokenPaw

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Re: The plague controversies
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2008, 11:07:40 AM »
Since so many people here seem interested in this subject, I'm going to take the opportunity to brag about the fact that BrokenMa gave me my very own plush Y. pestis for Yule.  It's six inches of soft, fuzzy pestilential cuteness.  With blue eyes.

Plush microbes.  Genius.

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Bogie

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Re: The plague controversies
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2008, 12:17:53 PM »
Well, 50 or so years ago, people would spray the skeeters, but now I think that the preferred method of dealing with them involves meetings and fundraising, so that they can properly define the problem, and then develop a committee to suggest possible alternatives.
 
Sigh.
 
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Iain

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Re: The plague controversies
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2008, 01:53:46 PM »
They still spray with insecticide bogie, including ddt where it is still useful.

Brokenpaw - that's cool.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: The plague controversies
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2008, 02:48:35 PM »
I would like to thank BrokenPaw (and BrokenMa) for making my wife and I seem almost normal.  We're not used to that. 

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roo_ster

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Re: The plague controversies
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2008, 02:55:09 PM »
Since so many people here seem interested in this subject, I'm going to take the opportunity to brag about the fact that BrokenMa gave me my very own plush Y. pestis for Yule.  It's six inches of soft, fuzzy pestilential cuteness.  With blue eyes.

Plush microbes.  Genius.

-BP

Quick! Spray BrokenFam with DDT and the skeeters with penicillin! Wink
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roo_ster

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BrokenPaw

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Re: The plague controversies
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2008, 05:56:51 AM »
I would like to thank BrokenPaw (and BrokenMa) for making my wife and I seem almost normal.  We're not used to that. 

That one bird's plumage outshines another's does not make the duller of the two any less odd.   grin

-BP
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

Manedwolf

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Re: The plague controversies
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2008, 06:28:41 AM »
Well, 50 or so years ago, people would spray the skeeters, but now I think that the preferred method of dealing with them involves meetings and fundraising, so that they can properly define the problem, and then develop a committee to suggest possible alternatives.
 
Sigh.

They still do in Florida. Malathion sprayers. Seeing DC-3's going over trailing clouds is not unusual. I once saw three side-by-side, which was pretty impressive.



Regarding the plush microbes, someone at work here was joking about leaving the plush Ebola one outside the cleanroom to see if it caused alarm.  grin

Paddy

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Re: The plague controversies
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2008, 06:45:45 AM »
Quote
Well, 50 or so years ago, people would spray the skeeters, but now I think that the preferred method of dealing with them involves meetings and fundraising, so that they can properly define the problem, and then develop a committee to suggest possible alternatives.
 
Sigh.

Right. It would be much more effective to send over some Raid and flyswatters right damn now and kill them skeeters daid.  No, the UC program is based on California's mosquito abatement districts plan, which is the best in the world.

at the same time, the mosquito nets significantly reduce the transmission of malaria at night, when it is most prevalent.   

280plus

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Re: The plague controversies
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2008, 07:31:06 AM »
Hey, is that Gewehr I see up in the cockpit there?  laugh
Avoid cliches like the plague!

Chuck Dye

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Re: The plague controversies
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2008, 08:39:03 AM »
 police   police   police   police

Gentle folk,

Please!  The organism is Yersinia pestis.  The shortened Y. pestis is acceptable only after the full name is established within an article or post, or, perhaps within a thread.

Thank you very much.  grin

Chuck Dye

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Re: The plague controversies
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2008, 08:58:06 AM »
Oh, and for what it is worth, my first job with the University of California Police came when a disgruntled grad student took a rack of test tubes containing a gimmicked rabies virus culture and placed it at the top of a four story stair well, then called the campus PD and suggested it be rescued before someone booted it down the stairs.  When questioned, the PI, principal (scientific) investigator running the lab, said there was a significant chance the gimmicking made the virus survivable for some time in air.  The results could have been dozens to hundreds dead.  The PI could only guess.


Bogie

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Re: The plague controversies
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2008, 11:41:46 AM »
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No, the UC program is based on California's mosquito abatement districts plan, which is the best in the world.

Okay... If, in fact, it _is_ the best in the world, then it's one of very few California government-sponsored dealies that actually works...

Betcha we could take the just the budgets that these folks use for committees, and do a lot better...
 
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