Author Topic: Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns  (Read 5784 times)

geronimotwo

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Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns
« on: January 20, 2008, 07:00:48 AM »
 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080120/ap_on_bi_ge/nuclear_waste_worries

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By ANGELA CHARLTON, Associated Press Writer
Sun Jan 20, 3:12 AM ET
 


BEAUMONT-HAGUE, France - Thousands of canisters of highly radioactive waste from the world's most nuclear-energized nation lie, silent and deadly, beneath this jutting tip of Normandy. Above ground, cows graze and Atlantic waves crash into heather-covered hills.

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The spent fuel, vitrified into blocks of black glass that will remain dangerous for thousands of years, is in "interim storage." Like nearly all the world's nuclear waste, it is still waiting for the long-term disposal solution that has eluded scientists and governments in the six decades since the atomic era began.

Industry officials hope renewed worldwide interest in nuclear energy will break a long, awkward silence surrounding nuclear waste. They want to revive momentum for scientific and political breakthroughs on waste that stalled after the accidents at Three Mile Island in 1979 and Chernobyl in 1986, which raised worldwide fears about radioactivity's risks to human and planetary health.

So far, though, recent talk of a nuclear renaissance has focused on the "front end," or reactor construction. Engineers are designing the next generation of reactors to be safer than today's  and they're being billed as a solution to global warming. Nuclear reactors do not emit carbon dioxide, blamed for heating the planet.

Few people have been talking about the "back end," industry-speak for the hundreds of thousands of tons of waste that nuclear plants produce each year, and the lucrative, secretive business of storing it away.

Waste "is the main problem with this so-called nuclear rebirth," said Mycle Schneider, an independent expert who co-authored a recent study for the European Parliament casting doubt on a global nuclear resurgence. He says government efforts to revive nuclear energy will stall without a "miracle" solution to waste disposal.

Workers at this waste treatment and storage site on France's Cherbourg peninsula, run by industry giant Areva, don't see a problem.

Though much of the technology here dates from the 1970s and 1980s, they point to a strong safety record and the 26,000 environmental tests conducted every year as evidence that the public has nothing to fear from their activity.

The tests routinely find crabs, cows and humans living nearby to be healthy. One longtime plant employee gestured toward her pregnant abdomen, holding her third child, as proof that there's nothing to worry about. Plant officials say strict security measures, tightened since the Sept. 11 attacks, rule out terrorism risks.

Greenpeace questions state-run Areva's safety figures, and accuses the government of playing down accidents and soil and water contamination. A group called Meres en Colere, or Angry Mothers, was formed in the region after a 1997 study showed higher than usual local rates of child leukemia, a malady linked to radiation exposure.

Now the "pros" are on a new mission to dispel a generation of scares and suspicion, saying nuclear power is less dangerous to humans and the Earth than burning oil or coal. The "antis" say nuclear energy can never offer 100 percent protection from its radioactive ingredients.

The splitting of uranium atoms in a nuclear reactor creates the exceptional heat that drives turbines to provide electricity. The process also creates radioactive isotopes such as cesium-137 and strontium-90 that take about 30 years to lose half their radioactivity. Higher-level leftovers includes plutonium-239, with a half-life of 24,000 years.

Direct exposure to such highly radioactive material, even for a short period, can be fatal. Indirect exposure, through seepage into groundwater, can lead to life-threatening illness for those living nearby and environmental damage.

For now, the best scientific solution for getting rid of the most lethal waste is to shove it deep underground.

Yet no country has built a deep geological repository. Governments meet protests each time one is proposed. The Yucca Mountain waste site in Nevada was commissioned in 1982 and is still awaiting a license.

Another option is recycling. Countries such as France, Russia and Japan reprocess much nuclear waste into new fuel. That dramatically reduces the volume: Forty years' worth of France's highly radioactive waste is stored under just three floor surfaces, each about the size of a basketball court, at Beaumont-Hague.

Recycling, though, produces plutonium that could be used in nuclear weapons  so the United States bans it, fearing proliferation.

And not all waste can be reprocessed. The deadliest bits  such as fuel rod casings and other reactor parts as well as concentrated fuel residue containing plutonium and highly enriched uranium  must be sealed and stored away.

That's what lurks 10 feet underground at this Normandy plant: More than 7,000 cylindrical steel canisters, each about the height of a parking meter, stacked and sealed upright in holes beneath the slick floor. Some contain compacted radioactive metal, the others hold spent fuel that has been vitrified into glass.

Among other ideas once floated for disposing of nuclear waste have been shooting it into space (deemed too risky because of the volatile rocket fuel) or injecting it in the ocean floor (stalled because testing its feasibility is too costly), or shipping all the world's waste to a collective nuclear dump.

The last idea proved too diplomatically delicate. But Greenpeace and Norwegian environmental group Bellona say European nations have for years been illegally shipping radioactive waste to Russia and leaving it there.

Current research in industry leader France  which relies on nuclear energy for more than 70 percent of its electricity, more than any other country  is focusing on new chemical processes that would shrink nuclear waste and cool it faster.

It will be at least 2040, though, before these might be put to use, scientists estimate. Schneider says scientists are "creating work for themselves" by researching methods that may never be commercially feasible or do much to solve the long-term waste quandary.

The World Nuclear Association, an industry group, disagrees, citing increasing interest in waste research by governments. The managers at the Normandy plant say long-held taboos about the industry are fading.

"We have the best scientific solution for treating waste," deputy director Eric Blanc said, referring to the plant's vitrification process and network of cooling pools. "Others are coming all the time to study it."

Visitors to the plant must wear special uniforms and trek through a maze of security and radioactivity checkpoints.

The plant used to have Webcams and "open house" days for people from nearby communities, but both practices were stopped after 9/11. Now the Defense Ministry regularly monitors the plant, and vets all visitors.

Meanwhile, new reactor clients are lining up.

China signed a staggering $11.7 billion deal last month for two nuclear reactors from Areva. Areva later said the deal included a feasibility study for a waste treatment and recycling facility in China that would cost another $22 billion.

Areva already makes $2.2 billion in revenues a year on treating and recycling waste. The plant at Beaumont-Hague takes in 22,000 tons of spent nuclear fuel a year, from France, Japan, Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy and Australia. The foreign fuel by law must be returned to its owners once it has been reprocessed into a more stable form that  through lack of alternatives  is buried or held in storage.

The French fuel stays in Normandy indefinitely, while bulkier, lower-level nuclear waste is piling up in dumps worldwide.

Nuclear scientists' dream is a wasteless reactor, and some sketches for the next crop of reactors, the Generation IV, include those that recycle 100 percent of their refuse.

Both nuclear fans and foes agree, however, that it will take a few more human generations for that dream to come true.

whatever happened to the idea of fusion, where the waste would be all "burned" up?

make the world idiot proof.....and you will have a world full of idiots. -g2

Firethorn

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Re: Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2008, 03:06:53 PM »
Fusion was never that the waste was all burned up, but that the waste wouldn't be generated in the first place.

In addition, with nuclear power we're in the fairly unique position to actually contain all the dangerous stuff.

Personally, I'd be going for breeder reactors that can burn other plant's waste as fuel, as well as generate more fuel to power the other plants.

They're also overstating the issue - you see, all these 'thousands of years' figure is how long it'd take for the waste to reach the radiation level of the ore it was processed from.  Realistically, all we'd need to do to get that is dilute it back down.

Reprocessing is where it's going to be at in the future.

Werewolf

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Re: Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2008, 10:08:26 AM »
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Reprocessing is where it's going to be at in the future.
Shoot it into the sun or encase it in glass which is then encapsulated in the type of concrete that uses a fiber filler for elasticity and strength. Bury the encapsulated waste in one of those salt mines that is 1000's of feet deep.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2008, 10:12:18 AM »
Bah.  These people would scream if we found a way to generate power out of thin air, with no construction, no infrastructure, and no emissions.  They just want to have something to gripe about.

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Firethorn

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Re: Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2008, 06:47:53 PM »
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Reprocessing is where it's going to be at in the future.
Shoot it into the sun or encase it in glass which is then encapsulated in the type of concrete that uses a fiber filler for elasticity and strength. Bury the encapsulated waste in one of those salt mines that is 1000's of feet deep.

Why should we spend money and resources to shoot it into the sun?  It's still got useful isotopes in there.  Besides, with orbital mechanics the way they are, it's actually highly difficult to shoot something into the sun - takes a lot of energy.

Worst case, after we've reprocessed it, we dump the remaining waste(with short halflives) into a subduction zone.

Glassifying it is optional at that point.

Sergeant Bob

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Re: Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2008, 06:51:07 PM »
Isn't the heavy water really the most complicated waste to dispose of?
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
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wooderson

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Re: Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2008, 06:56:14 PM »
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Bah.  These people would scream if we found a way to generate power out of thin air, with no construction, no infrastructure, and no emissions.  They just want to have something to gripe about.

Reading the article, 'these people' consist of one guy who said "waste is an issue." Which is it is.

I'm all for nuclear power and wish my fellow pinko/enviro-Stalinists/etc. would get on board - but pretending that disposal of waste, as of today, is a non-issue doesn't cut it.
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Firethorn

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Re: Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2008, 07:21:47 PM »
Isn't the heavy water really the most complicated waste to dispose of?

Not really.  The whole idea with using water is that it's relatively difficult to render radioactive while remaining cheap(yes, even heavy water can be considered cheap compared to other possible materials).

And not all reactors use heavy water.  Many are called 'light water' reactors because they can use plain old H2O.

Oh, and heavy water is relatively non-toxic:  You'd have to drink nothing but it for a week to get sick.

Contaminated water can be a different issue.


CAnnoneer

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Re: Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2008, 08:48:55 PM »
Come on now. Libs remain against nuclear because they do not want to admit they were wrong about it. It is amusing and ironic in many ways, especially when France, their idol, runs on 80% nuclear. It just comes to show how stubborn and impractical they are. Those few of them that tend to admit it are also very quick to add all sorts of exaggerated problems of storage and transportation, essentially contradicting themselves again. Their entire position is nothing but stupid pride and stubborn bullshit.

Nitrogen

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Re: Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2008, 04:43:41 AM »
Personally, my main issue with nuclear power is the expense, when I feel we should be pushing for more renewable power, like solar, wind, etc.

Nuclear power should be part of a diversified cleaner energy policy that includes solar, wind, and whatever other bits we can think of that dont pollute or add greenhouse gasses, mercury, or other crap into our air and environment.
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Ben

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Re: Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2008, 04:54:40 AM »
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Personally, my main issue with nuclear power is the expense

Is it more expensive given energy produced? I'm not trying to pick a fight, I really don't know. I always thought nuclear was actually cheaper per unit output over the lifespan of the power system. It would be interesting to see a study, if one exists, regarding energy cost per unit output, linked to longevity and cost to build, of different power systems. It would also be interesting to see a comparison of amount of hazmat and pollution produced. That would include, as examples, the nuclear waste (using a Japanese or French model), acids and other chemical byproducts in the production of solar cells, and raw particulate pollution of coal.

Edited to add, "cost to build"
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MechAg94

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Re: Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2008, 05:22:56 AM »
I don't think you are going to meet today's power demands with solar and wind power (without some improvements at least).  I think those are supplemental sources right now.  If you want the bulk of power produced to be clean with no air pollution, nuclear is the way to go at present I think.  Others sources such as hydroelectric, etc are good if available.  Natural gas Cogeneration turbines are pretty clean also, but natural gas isn't cheap these days.

I would also like to see a little more effort on solar research, but at least some of that is already going on.

I think there already is some energy policy or tax breaks favoring wind power.  At least, I see the big wind turbine propeller sections being trucked out of Freeport quite regularly, so someone is building them. 

As well, there are a number of new permits issued to build nuclear power plants.  My neighbor works at the South Texas Nuke plant near Bay City.  He said they have an approved permit to build two more units, doubling their size.  He said there was another permit for a plant near San Antonio or Austin.  I think this first round of permits was backed up by grants or loans to supplement the projects.  I think there were 10 or 12 around the country.  Anyway, if you want to get the schooling and background checks, there might be some job opportunities.  My neighbor said they recruit at the high school level at times to help kids know what education requirements they have and such.  Good pay from what he says. 
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Re: Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2008, 06:46:25 AM »
The single biggest problem with nuclear energy in this country is that it's a for profit business, rather than a public utility.  Under the 'for profiit' rules, the entity building the nuke is entitled to a minimum 10% return on its investment and can charge its customers whatever rate in order to get that amount.  Accordingly, it's in their interest to build the most complicated and expensive power plant possible.  And the more anti nuke environmental challenges, the more profit, because those legal costs are capitalized into construction and become the basis for an additional 10% ROI.

What needs to happen is 1) Place nuclear power plants under public control and remove the for profit burden.  2) Build the plants all the same, 'cookie cutter' style, based on a proven and efficient design.  Stop engineering each new from the ground up.

charby

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Re: Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2008, 08:58:29 AM »


I think there already is some energy policy or tax breaks favoring wind power.  At least, I see the big wind turbine propeller sections being trucked out of Freeport quite regularly, so someone is building them. 

We have two plants to build blades opening in Iowa, one in Ft Madison at the old Fruehauf (Wabash National) Trailer plant and one at the old Maytag plant in Newton.

Constantly building windfarms north of me along I-35 and lots more in NW IA. 

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MechAg94

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Re: Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2008, 10:21:34 AM »
Riley, Public Utility companies were a for profit business a few years ago and were just regulated with oversight.  I think you are thinking more along the lines of a fully govt run and managed nuke plant.  I am not sure I like the consequences of that type of move.  I really doubt the cost of power from the govt run version would be less than what we have now in the long run. 
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Re: Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2008, 11:57:44 AM »
"It is not too much to expect that our children will enjoy in their homes electrical energy too cheap to meter, will know of great periodic regional famines in the world only as matters of history, will travel effortlessly over the seas and under them and through the air with a minimum of danger and at great speeds, and will experience a lifespan far longer than ours as disease yields and man comes to understand what causes him to age."
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Re: Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2008, 12:09:55 PM »
Riley, Public Utility companies were a for profit business a few years ago and were just regulated with oversight.  I think you are thinking more along the lines of a fully govt run and managed nuke plant.  I am not sure I like the consequences of that type of move.  I really doubt the cost of power from the govt run version would be less than what we have now in the long run. 

Right, because the unregulated 'free market' always produced superior and efficient results.  It never does irresponsible things like fail to actually fund the contractual pensions for its employee, thereby cheating them our of their retirement.  Or making subprime real estate loans with adjustable mortgages for a quick buck.

Nah.  They wouldn't do any of that stuff. 

Firethorn

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Re: Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2008, 05:19:42 PM »
Right, because the unregulated 'free market' always produced superior and efficient results.  It never does irresponsible things like fail to actually fund the contractual pensions for its employee, thereby cheating them our of their retirement.  Or making subprime real estate loans with adjustable mortgages for a quick buck.

How about instead of a for profit or purely government run industry we have it be a coop?  IE it's property of a power district, principally provides power to that district, and is owned by the consumers of electricity in that district.

The local phone company here is a coop and I love it.

Paddy

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Re: Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2008, 05:33:06 PM »
That's a good idea. Coops are good, accountable to the customers rather than 'for profit' shareholders, yet not government.  I like it.  Our town has a mutual water company and it works great.

Excellent idea for nuclear power plants.

CAnnoneer

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Re: Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2008, 02:24:58 AM »
Here is another idea - why not get the Navy to run them? They have been running reactors on ships and submarines since 1955 without a nuclear accident. Perhaps that will win over enough political support for nuclear power.

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Re: Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2008, 02:40:00 AM »
hate to tout the french as a "how to" example but tey standardized reactor design. as opposed to our every site is different technique
i want the guy in charge of safety required to live on site  with his family   in a house atop the dome  that should keep him motivated
and i want some butt whupped over safety issues   few years back at the plant near here an inspection showed some genius had ganged to gether a series of switches with paper clips. these switches activated pumps used during a scram. had to be thrown one at a time with pauses so as not to throw full start up load on line all at once. was too much trouble to throw em one at a time during simulations so some guy defeated the safety designed into system with paper clips. i want jail time for that kinda stupidity.and hid boss if he allowed it
when the nrc caught it the said if he had thrown it like that for real it coulda got ugly. not sure what they did to guy but if its union i guarantee hes still working

MechAg94

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Re: Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2008, 05:53:06 AM »
I was thinking more along the lines of this:  The nuke plant closest to me has higher pay and better advancement than most chemical plant jobs on the Gulf Coast, especially for non-degreed people.  It has greater requirements to be eligible, but that is what it is.  It seems to me that if you turn it into a government run agency, you will end up with government worker quality.  You will still end up with stupid stuff happening occasionally regardless of who runs the plants. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Firethorn

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Re: Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2008, 09:06:47 AM »
You will still end up with stupid stuff happening occasionally regardless of who runs the plants. 

 undecided -looks at the blame stuff for New Orlean's levies, and has to agree.

Do you really want nuclear plants run by the same people that created the TSA?

As for having the navy run them - not their purpose, I don't think that the navy operatiges GW range plants, and who probably already snaps up many navy nukes as they get out/retire?

Mech:  Imagine that, the job that has tougher entry requirements pays more.  Wink

French G.

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Re: Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2008, 10:10:40 AM »
Wind power.  rolleyes  Local project estimated to cost 65 million. Estimated to gross 5.5 million a year. 20 year service life. Construction cost is always underestimated, revenue is based on rosy power generation numbers they should have no problem meeting as long as the wind blows just the right speed 24/7/365.  Or by wind advocates statements they hope to see wind provide 15% of the nation's power needs. Our power usage grows by about 1.5% a year. How exactly will wind save us?

 Riley, greed is good. No new nuke plants have been constructed in the U.S. in decades not because the evil power companies can't make enough money, but because gov't regulation is just a touch Byzantine. Let a company make money and they might figure out how to make more. Free market.
AKA Navy Joe   

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Art Eatman

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Re: Nuclear revival rekindles waste concerns
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2008, 10:27:26 AM »
An incredible amount of money is wasted in the lawsuits against nuke plants brought by the BANANA crowd.  And, the Environmental Impact Statements which re-invent the wheel at great cost while providing no new information.

Sure, waste is an issue--but the geology/engineering part has been solved long ago.  It's a political hassle.

Solar is good for daytime peaking--at high cost per kw--but it ain't worth doo-doo at night.  Wind is good, when the wind blows.  In Texas, however, when the so-called "Marfa High" weather phenomenon sets in, the wind quits for a couple of weeks, and those hundreds of units along I-10 won't be very useful.
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