Author Topic: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?  (Read 19628 times)

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?
« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2008, 02:58:28 PM »
Quote
Of course, we can make clean water simply by building de sal plants.  You can't make more oil.

Two words:

Thermal.

Depolymerization.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2008, 03:01:21 PM »


While I don't like big government, I have no use for idiot anarchists and would-be Weathermen in my state, thanks. They need to go back to their basements, chee-tohs, and Ron Paul worship.


For the record, Maned.

I'm a Free State Project member. If, and when, I immigrate, I will choose NH for my state of habitation.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

WeedWhacker

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 152
Re: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2008, 04:11:49 PM »
I cheer every time those loons get themselves arrested again (one of the leaders is in prison now for being a deadbeat dad, even), especially if they throw themselves on the ground and make the cops drag them around when pulled over for not having a car registration, since they're "showing the man". It's hilarious. Hilarious in a sad way, but hilarious.

While I don't like big government, I have no use for idiot anarchists and would-be Weathermen in my state, thanks. They need to go back to their basements, chee-tohs, and Ron Paul worship.

Granted that I don't agree with some of the FSP's members' actions (or inactions, as in the case of being dragged around by the cops) or ideology, I do recognize that they and I have a common enemy: the ever-increasing encroachment of big government, in a country birthed in violence against the same, which has made a mockery of its original charter.

I don't cheer the cops when I see a thin, older woman dragged out of her car by cops because she didn't show her papers, which she doesn't possess to show because she opposes them on moral grounds.

-edit
As for the topic, I'm of the idealistic mindset that it'd be wonderful to see what the free market could come up with if let to be free to do its thang. For starters, I'd *love* to buy one of those tiiiny little deathtrap cars from India which were said to retail at under ... was it $5K new? No frills, no nothing, just a small car which by virtue of its small size gets good fuel economy. Can't, though, 'cause I understand they're banned in the USA.
"Higher education" is often a euphemism for producers of fermented, homogenized minds.

Glock Glockler

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
Re: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2008, 06:17:17 PM »
Manedwolf,

You basically stated that you want big govt. infringing on people's rights and preventing more fuel getting to market because you have a personal dislike for some of the people who support it.  We can argue about the analogy but the fact remains that growing hemp infringes on no one's rights yet you don't want to take the govt. off people's backs. 

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2008, 06:28:58 PM »


While I don't like big government, I have no use for idiot anarchists and would-be Weathermen in my state, thanks. They need to go back to their basements, chee-tohs, and Ron Paul worship.


For the record, Maned.

I'm a Free State Project member. If, and when, I immigrate, I will choose NH for my state of habitation.

As long as you're aware that their "project" was entirely hijacked from its ivory-tower founder, and has now been taken over by crazy anarchists with the FBI, DHS and US Marshal Service eye on them constantly, even a few Marshals questioning members at a bar in Manchester about the violent threats of one. They know evvverything about them. They know the names of their members. They know where they meet. They're now intimately entwined with the federal case over the Browns, a couple of crazy, armed "tax protestors" who threatened to kill law enforcement members' families and had a half-year standoff with authorities from a concrete bunker.

If you, as an incoming foreigner, want to fall in with a crowd under the microscope of various letter agencies, that's up to you. I wouldn't consider it wise. Especially if you want to get any kind of job.

I don't cheer the cops when I see a thin, older woman dragged out of her car by cops because she didn't show her papers, which she doesn't possess to show because she opposes them on moral grounds.

They were looking for a confrontation. They were caught speeding 60mph in a 35mph zone, I believe. They had no inspection sticker or registration sticker on their car. As soon as the cops came up, the other person in the car jumped out with a camcorder to record it as she did her "refuse to cooperate" act. And then when taken to jail, the rest of the FSP people, like a bunch of freakish children, paraded around outside the jail wearing "V for Vendetta" masks.

They're crazed conspiracy-theory anarchists who like to throw juvenile shows, they're professonal protestors, they are Ron Paul cultists, they're 9/11 troofers, and they're an embarassment to the state.

I've seen more than one "FREE STATERS GO HOME" bumper sticker, including on vehicles that had Bush, NRA, and even SASS stickers on them.

I'd just like them to go home, go to Wyoming or something where they can be "free" and not annoy locals any more, or to be reined in before some of them go the Weathermen route and blow up something to make their point. undecided

wmenorr67

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,775
Re: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2008, 06:51:56 PM »
Something to take into account, studies confirm that E-85 will get you about 25% less fuel economy than gas.  So even if it is cheaper by the gallon over the course of time it winds up being more expensive.
There are five things, above all else, that make life worth living: a good relationship with God, a good woman, good health, good friends, and a good cigar.

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American Soldier.  One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Bacon is the candy bar of meats!

Only the dead have seen the end of war!

Gewehr98

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 11,010
  • Yee-haa!
    • Neural Misfires (Blog)
Re: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2008, 08:48:17 PM »
Not necessarily true, though.

I filled up on E-85 this morning, at $2.79/gallon.  I looked across at the regular unleaded pump, and it was going for $3.63/gallon.

That's a difference of 84 cents/gallon between the two fuels. I understand Wisconsin charges 40 cents/gallon tax on that E-85, too. 

Regardless, if it wasn't cheaper to run on the stuff, I wouldn't do it, nor would other honest-to-Gawd FlexFuel vehicles out there.  I'm not talking E-10, I'm talking E-85, and the vehicles that are designed to run on it.  Put E-85 in a non-FlexFuel vehicle, and you'll ruin it.  Put E-10 in a vehicle designed for regular unleaded, and it'll run ok, but the engine management system isn't set up to optimize for the mix. 

My FlexFuel 2001 S-10 is still cheaper running on E-85, miles/dollar, even with the slightly increased consumption rate.  Likewise, I don't see a 25% drop in mileage, that must be a seriously worst-case scenario with a vehicle that doesn't use a fuel composition sensor to adjust ignition and fuel injection timing.

As a fuelie from way back, I'm very much into the alcohol-burning vehicles, be it nitromethanol in a HemiCuda or E-85 in my 2.2L S-10. The stroker 383 that's going into my '53 Chevy pickup has a new Edelbrock 600cfm E-85 carburetor, and makes considerably better use of the 105-octane E-85 than the current batch of low-compression engines currently designed for 87-octane mogas.  It should do better than my S-10, although  as a dedicated E-85 only vehicleit will also not leave the Wisconsin/Illinois/Minnesota area. That doesn't bother me in the least bit, and I'm already doing my homework to convert my Shovelhead Harley, too. It's already fairly high compression, domed pistons and all.     
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

http://neuralmisfires.blogspot.com

"Never squat with your spurs on!"

stevelyn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,130
Re: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?
« Reply #57 on: May 03, 2008, 04:35:53 AM »
Any reason why hemp wouldn't work?  From what I read it'll grow very well without any fertilizer. 

Nope, other than the govt already has too much invested in the anti-hemp lie and won't allow it.

 
Quote
........FBI, DHS and US Marshal Service eye on them constantly, .........


Great! rolleyes I'd rather be in the company of dope-smoking anarchist hippies than fedpuke trash.
Be careful that the toes you step on now aren't connected to the ass you have to kiss later.

Eat Moose. Wear Wolf.

Nitrogen

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,755
  • Who could it be?
    • @c0t0d0s2 / Twitter.
Re: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?
« Reply #58 on: May 03, 2008, 05:49:44 AM »
Something to take into account, studies confirm that E-85 will get you about 25% less fuel economy than gas.  So even if it is cheaper by the gallon over the course of time it winds up being more expensive.

I posted a rundown on this a while ago, here
Of course, the prices were much less then.

Readers digest:  Ethanol has less energy per gallon than gas, so you require more of it to get an equivilant energy.
Also realise that Corn prices are artifically "low" due to government interference, so the true cost difference is even worse.

PS I love my new icon.
יזכר לא עד פעם
Remember. Never Again.
What does it mean to be an American?  Have you forgotten? | http://youtu.be/0w03tJ3IkrM

Sergeant Bob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,861
Re: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?
« Reply #59 on: May 03, 2008, 06:11:49 AM »
Something to take into account, studies confirm that E-85 will get you about 25% less fuel economy than gas.  So even if it is cheaper by the gallon over the course of time it winds up being more expensive.

I posted a rundown on this a while ago, here
Of course, the prices were much less then.

Readers digest:  Ethanol has less energy per gallon than gas, so you require more of it to get an equivilant energy.
Also realise that Corn prices are artifically "low" due to government interference, so the true cost difference is even worse.

PS I love my new icon.

But as G98 posted, with ethanol you are able to run with higher compression ratios, increasing the efficiency of the engine, which would offset some of the energy difference.
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

I already have canned butter, buying more. Canned blueberries, some pancake making dry goods and the end of the world is gonna be delicious.  -French G

taurusowner

  • Guest
Re: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?
« Reply #60 on: May 03, 2008, 04:26:37 PM »
Paddy, just how exactly do you plan to make oil not publically traded?  Ar eyou going to take over the whole planet and create a global socialist government?  Because there will always be people with brains who will avoid and fight socialism, continue to embrace capitalism.  In short, you can only implement your socialist ideals in the country you vote in.  Everywhere else, it's up to them.  You wouldn't be shooting America in the foot.  You'd be shooting us in the head.

stjeanp

  • New Member
  • Posts: 28
    • My Website
Re: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?
« Reply #61 on: May 03, 2008, 04:30:41 PM »
Food and water are always more of a concern.

People will piss and moan if there's no gas at the gas station.

If there's no food or water, they'll riot and kill.

True and a good observation, but I'd like to point out that a good bit of the fertilizer used in this country comes from the petroleum industry.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?
« Reply #62 on: May 04, 2008, 01:29:48 AM »
Quote
they're professonal protestors,

There's something wrong with being a professional protester?

Quote
they are Ron Paul cultists

I supported Ron Paul because he was the best candidate. If you think I'm crazy because of that, well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Quote
I've seen more than one "FREE STATERS GO HOME" bumper sticker, including on vehicles that had Bush, NRA, and even SASS stickers on them.

So, supporters of a moderate president and a moderate gun rights organization oppose people who are not political moderates.

The sky is blue.

The sun rises in the east.

Quote
If you, as an incoming foreigner, want to fall in with a crowd under the microscope of various letter agencies,

Frankly, I have expressed my views on politics in print numerous times, both in letters to editors, and as guest political columns in various print and on-line media. I have appeared on television (Israel's channel 10) at one point, talking about public funding for higher education.

If someone out there is making a List of Evil Minarchist Libertarians, I'm already on that list.

Quote
Especially if you want to get any kind of job.

If you think that the U.S. government is acting behind the scenes to deny jobs to people due to their political views, I've got a bridge to sell to you.

[
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?
« Reply #63 on: May 04, 2008, 04:25:26 AM »
Quote
they're professonal protestors,

There's something wrong with being a professional protester? (2)

Quote
Especially if you want to get any kind of job.

If you think that the U.S. government is acting behind the scenes to deny jobs to people due to their political views, I've got a bridge to sell to you.

[


Yes, most professional protesters are unemployable oxygen thieves.

It is not US Gov't, it is any employer with google-fu. 

Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?
« Reply #64 on: May 04, 2008, 04:37:03 AM »
Quote
Yes, most professional protesters are unemployable oxygen thieves.

I hope you're not serious about that.

There's a lot of stuff wrong about modern society. Most people (myself included) don't have the time, the bravery, and the resources to dedicate to actively protesting it.

I have two jobs and a degree to think of, so I can't find time to stand out in the heat and cold with a poster protesting minor issues that few people other than me little about. Most people don't.

I can but cheer on people who are carrying on the fight (non-violently).

I can't lie down in a protest and let police drag me, and maybe risk being beaten or tased, or whatever, even on issue that I feel strongly about. Maybe I'm not angry enough, or just not brave enough.

There are people out there that dedicate a lot of time to protesting against injustices.

I can't lead that life, but I admire these people.

Quote
It is not US Gov't, it is any employer with google-fu. 

Funny. I know plenty of libertarians with jobs. Even in my field.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?
« Reply #65 on: May 04, 2008, 04:48:02 AM »
Quote
Yes, most professional protesters are unemployable oxygen thieves.

I hope you're not serious about that.

There's a lot of stuff wrong about modern society. Most people (myself included) don't have the time, the bravery, and the resources to dedicate to actively protesting it.

I have two jobs and a degree to think of, so I can't find time to stand out in the heat and cold with a poster protesting minor issues that few people other than me little about. Most people don't.

Most professional protesters are unemployed parasites who couch-surf and/or bum off other people as they travel around, protesting for the sake of protesting.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?
« Reply #66 on: May 04, 2008, 04:50:36 AM »

Most professional protesters are unemployed parasites who couch-surf and/or bum off other people as they travel around, protesting for the sake of protesting.

My opinion stands.

Or are you telling me the only way to live one's life is to have an eight-to-five job, wife, two children and a mortgage, wear a tie, go to church/synagogue weekly, vote for moderates?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Glock Glockler

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
Re: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?
« Reply #67 on: May 04, 2008, 05:51:35 AM »
Micro,

One thing I will say on my own behalf is that there is a difference between protesting something to help change public opinion more towards what you believe it should be as opposed to protesting something because you simply want to protest it.  I was beyond excited about the FSP when I heard NH was chosen but I soon became very disillusioned when I met many of the other participants, a few of them were fantastic people but the majority were selfish idiots who cared only about their own aggrandizement; they'd have crackhead ideas of protest that would alienate people, especially NH natives, and they didn't care that they'd alienate people.  It wasn't about persuasion or even about building a political/social movement, it was simply about them getting to play the part of the radical/bad ass. 

Building a successful movement is not that complicated but it does take a lot of hard work, IMO the people best at this are the democrats, not the Che Guevera loving hippies who refuse to bathe but the political machine democrats that get people elected decade after decade.  Unglamorous things like hitting the phones to get voters to come out are extremely vital but most of the FSPers I met wouldn't do that in 100yrs, they're not interested in actually changing things, if they were successful in changing things what would they complain about?

Anyway, if one really did want to be effective in the FSP the first step is being a good neighbor, the kind of person that makes other people say "wow, that guy is great, I'm really glad he decided to move here".  If one is unwilling or uable to accomplish that simple feat they really should examine why they want to take part in the FSP. 


MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?
« Reply #68 on: May 04, 2008, 07:11:19 AM »
Look,

I appreciate the importance of professional politicians, and political activists, and the guys who donate $25 per year to the DNC, and the importance of the regular Joe. And it's all true. But for one, everybody plays a role. Take the US Progressive movement. It was the moderate, clean-shaved and cuddly guys who struck most of the blows against individual liberty in the last 80 years - but the radical guys were always there helping them in a variety of ways.

Now, as I mentioned, I'm not really all that far out in my personal behavior, my hair is not long, and my plans for life include a graduate degree, and marriage, and a child. But I don't think that people whose plans for life include long hair and polyandry, or who live on as hikikomori have somehow 'failed', because I'm not conceited enough to think everybody should have a 'normal' life. If there's anything my limited education taught me is that a lot of things I call 'normal' would be seen as insane by people only a generation removed from me.

Now let's be fair.

My views on politics, on what society should be, are pretty far out by most people's standards. Some of these you agree with, some of them you don't; let's just say I'm on that very edge where radical conservatism bleeds into libertarianism.

My political disagreement with the current system is not limited to the political disagreement one might have, for example, when deciding where to post a traffic sign. It is not only a disagreement of efficiency  it is one of morality. I consider the system, with its various alphabet-soup agencies, to be unjust.

I'm not trying to persuade you here, but I'm trying to make you understand where I am coming from.

I recognize my views are not likely to be implemented into policy soon in my own country, or in America, where I plan to immigrate.

I recognize that these views are radical and revolutionary. I do not mean I support people storming the houses of government with rifles and hanging those responsible, but I do imply that the society I have in mind will be different at root from what we have now.  The political order, the laws, and the culture and economy shaped by them would likely have to undergo a fractal shift.

This sort of thing has been accomplished once already  as you pointed out  by the Democrats and Progressives. It took them almost ninety years. Seventy if you count from the New Deal.

If the only way to deal with the situation is through the machine of ordinary politics, through the gradual work of trying to chip away a granite slab with a toothpick, it'll take another 70 years.

So if I go your way  only endorsing moderate, sensible politics  and if everything works out fine  I end up being old and drooling in my own shirt by the time it's all over  if I succeed, that is. Not only will I have allowed what I see as injustice to go on for 70 years, but I will also be old.

The purpose of the Free State Project was  and IS  "Liberty in our lifetime." The idea was to use activism to off-set the low amount of libertarians in society, and to cut down that crazy 70-year timeperiod we have to work for. It selects for activists  if you're so dedicated to your idea you'll move to a different state for it, you will sure be active for it.

But naturally someone so dedicated often ends up a bit 'strange' by common standard.

Political revolutions are not accomplished by people in ties  unless it's within 70 years. If  you want to see the system go away, you need to be ready to tolerate wacky guys, and people who chain themselves to gates of various public offices, and people who wear Wookie suits (I personally see nothing wrong with a Wookie suit, for the record. Even if one wears it to work. I would hire an employee wearing a Wookie suit if he proved competent). Well-behaved women rarely make history, remember?

I'm not saying you have to be like that yourself, but its part of that big process if your views are as radical as mine.

Which is why, I think, a lot of people who share my views bought into Ron Paul. Sure he is a bit strange by some people's standards, and he's imperfect. But the essence of Ron Paul's message for libertarians was: "That unwieldy revolutionary change we were talking about? The one you're going to have to work for the rest of your lives to try to accomplish? I have the blueprints for the battle station. All we need to do is to fly an X-wing down the thermal exhaust pipe&"

I'm not trying to tell you I'm right, and that you should abandon your political views in favor of mine. But I'm trying to explain *why* I think what I think.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?
« Reply #69 on: May 04, 2008, 07:27:52 AM »
There's a lot of stuff wrong about modern society. Most people (myself included) don't have the time, the bravery, and the resources to dedicate to actively protesting it.

The problem here is that protesting, as a result, favors the very poor - who, being on government subsidies can AFFORD to spend all their time protesting various things.  It also favors the very rich - who can afford to hire the protesters, often for little more than a couple meals and a bus per day. 

It sucks for the middle class.  When you see middle class individuals protesting, you KNOW they feel strongly about it.

You can see this manifest in countries with high welfare populations such as France, Egypt, Saudi Arabia.  They'll have huge protests over the most minor thing.  Most people in the USA are too busy for that sort of stuff.

Personally, I don't think that we should put to much faith in how common protester's values are commonplace among the working population.

As an aside, a couple deployments ago I figured out that with my pay I could have a hundred protesters demonstrate for pretty much anything I wanted every day for my posting there.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?
« Reply #70 on: May 04, 2008, 07:29:20 AM »
Quote
The problem here is that protesting, as a result, favors the very poor - who, being on government subsidies can AFFORD to spend all their time protesting various things

We're talking about FSP members here, who protest the very existence of these subsidies.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Glock Glockler

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 182
Re: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?
« Reply #71 on: May 04, 2008, 08:32:57 AM »
Micro,

A couple of quick thoughts regarding activism:

-The FSP might be about 'liberty in our lifetime' but at the end of the day freedom minded people as well as socialists all want as much change in their direction as they can get as quickly as possible.  Socialists might have moved slowly but they've always taken ground decade after decade.  Look at the amount of socialism in the USA compared to 100yrs ago.  Suppose NH isn't a libertatian paradise within our lifetimes but a good deal of big govt. is removed, is the FSP then a failure?

Similarly, suppose I am discussing gun control with someone and I know that they love the idea of an instant background check, should I specifically argue against one?  My goal is to take as much ground as possible, so I'll by-pass this issue and continue on to other areas where I can make progress.  I did exactly this with a friend who was a former US Army Infantryman, he loved the background check so I said "If the Feds give me a clean bill of health why shouldn't I be able to own an M-16, if I'm good enough for the AR-15 why not the M-16"?, and he agreed.  If I argued the background check no progress would have been made on that day.

So, how does it help for FSPers to set unrealistic goals and persue them in foolish ways?

- Not everyone is suited to all types of activism, someone who is very introverted might not do well making phone calls to potential voters, that's fine, there are other ways they can help, but throwing snowballs at a Federal Building is NOT doing anything to help.  Trespassing on Federal property handing out anti-IRS leaflets is NOT going to help.  If you want liberty then you shouldn't do things that alienate people.

Your average guy on the street, who is going to be the main determinant of political change, does NOT want radical change, if they did they'd be a radical activist.  The average guy probably thinks that things are not as good as they should be but he doesn't understand why, talking about "radical" anything will scare him, if you want to persuade him it'll be with talk of "common sense" and "reform".  This is partly why Obama is so successful, even though he's a radical socialist the average guy doesn't know it, Obama just talks very slickly about Washington being broken and to fix it, hope, change, and progess being key.

At the end of the day being effective matters a lot more than being "right". Think of Naziism, Communism, or any other radical "ism" that was ever sold to the masses and ask yourself what kind of packaging was used, how it was marketed and sold.     





Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?
« Reply #72 on: May 04, 2008, 12:21:34 PM »
I was beyond excited about the FSP when I heard NH was chosen but I soon became very disillusioned when I met many of the other participants, a few of them were fantastic people but the majority were selfish idiots who cared only about their own aggrandizement; they'd have crackhead ideas of protest that would alienate people, especially NH natives, and they didn't care that they'd alienate people. 

Oh, they did that alright. The term "carpetbaggers" is applied to them a lot.

You see, the best way to piss off an old-style New Englander is for a newcomer to move in and tell them How Things Should Be.

New England, (not counting present day MA), more Northern New England, is about being a good neighbor while at the same time respecting privacy and not making public spectacles. People say "good morning" to strangers on the street here, and hold open doors. They'll run over to help someone struggling to get a package into a car. But they do not ask about or boast about their religion or politics...that's a private matter. And they do not cause scenes in public, especially things like the Free State people did, like scaring children and ruining the Nashua Holiday Walk by marching around in a group bellowing about Ron Paul at the top of their lungs.

They've completely and utterly pissed off the natives and longtime residents here. Especially after one of them marched into the IRS office in Keene with a straw hat and pitchfork (as if that's what NH locals wear?), after they shouted that the Manchester PD was "like Nazis rounding up the Jews" while making a huge scene, and even moreso after the Brown debacle, and then again after they chased Hannity around like a crazed mob. Oh, yes, and marching to the jail wearing "V for Vendetta" costumes, that really helped their cause when it showed up in a photo in the paper.

Most of the ones here who get continually arrested have no job, and even boast that they had to sell their stuff to afford to move here for the "project". They're parasites and bums. One of their leaders was apparently just arrested for being a deadbeat dad, as I mentioned.

People here want them gone. They're an embarassment to the state and are not the image we want in the national news, that's the sentiment I get from everyone I talk to.

MicroBalrog, I understand what you're saying, but you're way far away looking at ivory-tower ideals. I'm here on the ground, I live where that group is, and I'm telling you that you'd be severely disillusioned by what kind of people they actually are and what they really do.

Trust me. Unless you like people who are loud and uncouth and who truly think that the US and "Zionists" cooperated to orchestrate 9/11, they're not what you're hoping for.

I'm sorry to pop your hopeful bubble, but like all utopian visions, the people who actually took it and ran with it completely broke it and misused it for their own ends. The professor who came up with the idea completely lost control of it to a group of unproductive, in-your-face obnoxious and delusional anarchists who ran off with the flag.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?
« Reply #73 on: May 04, 2008, 10:03:37 PM »
Quote
Oh, yes, and marching to the jail wearing "V for Vendetta" costumes, that really helped their cause when it showed up in a photo in the paper.

What's wrong with V costumes? Did I miss something?

Quote
nd even boast that they had to sell their stuff to afford to move here for the "project".

You generally need to sell your house to move to a new one.

Quote
Unless you like people who are loud and uncouth and who truly think that the US and "Zionists" cooperated to orchestrate 9/11, they're not what you're hoping for.

Maned, I *know* quite a few people in the 'Project'. I hang out on the FSP forums, hell, I get birthday presents from some of them.  Yes, I'm perfectly aware that some of them are wackier than myself.

A response for Glockler is forthcoming, but will require more thought. Cheesy

Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Will Peak Oil be the next "Global Warming" farse?
« Reply #74 on: May 05, 2008, 03:05:59 AM »
Quote
Oh, yes, and marching to the jail wearing "V for Vendetta" costumes, that really helped their cause when it showed up in a photo in the paper.

What's wrong with V costumes? Did I miss something?

My FIL has a wise saying when referring to folks with, uh, "non-standard" sartorial choices:
"He is dressing for his peer group."

So, a bunch of folks wearing V masks are conforming to their peer-group norms.  Good for them.

Thing is, when they try to interact with folks outside their little clique, they look like a bunch of unemployable fools and wierdoes.  Any influence they might have by means of reason or argument is flushed down the toilet. 

IOW, they are no longer trying to influence, persuade, or otherwise do something real & effective.  They are prancing about to gin up status in their own little group.  In adolescents, such behavior is somewhat expected.  In adults, it is pathetic and cringe-inducing.

Quote
Yes, most professional protesters are unemployable oxygen thieves.

I hope you're not serious about that.

There's a lot of stuff wrong about modern society. Most people (myself included) don't have the time, the bravery, and the resources to dedicate to actively protesting it.

I have two jobs and a degree to think of, so I can't find time to stand out in the heat and cold with a poster protesting minor issues that few people other than me little about. Most people don't.

I can but cheer on people who are carrying on the fight (non-violently).

I can't lie down in a protest and let police drag me, and maybe risk being beaten or tased, or whatever, even on issue that I feel strongly about. Maybe I'm not angry enough, or just not brave enough.

There are people out there that dedicate a lot of time to protesting against injustices.

I can't lead that life, but I admire these people.

I am serious. 

A prime example of the type is Barack Obama.  The man has a real aversion to real work.  The only job he had where he provided something of value in exchange for his pay was as a law lecturer.

His longest stint of "employment" was as a "community activist."  IOW, a protester.

He made his money by asking folks for theirs and by getting gov't grants, not providing something of use.

Then there is Jesse Jackson.  The man hasn't done an honest day's work in living memory.  He shakes down companies with threats of accusations of racism and sucks up huge hunks of pork from the public trough. 

Such is the lot of so many professional protesters.  For instance, the entire environmentalist movement is pretty much funded by the EPA.

"Unproductive leech" and "oxygen thief" seem apt, IMO.

From the perspective of effectiveness, hard-working middle-class folks are where its at.  Get them riled up and willing to spend time on a topic and the bed-wetters in gooberment pay attention.

Two interesting examples are the topic of illegal immigration and the 2004 POTUS election recount.

Professional political types had been sparring for years on illegal aliens, but when Senator McCain (RINO-Mex) & GWB tried to push amnesty, you saw the middle class get riled.   And you saw the political class wet its pants.

The 2004 POTUS election recount mess was interesting becasue it riled up a number of hard-working, usually non-political middle class folks.  I'll never forget the group of tie & button-down shirt wearing guys baning on the door of the Dem-controlled election boards in S Florida.  It was disquieting to lefty protester types and heartening to those who wanted to uphold the rule of law.

Quote
It is not US Gov't, it is any employer with google-fu. 

Funny. I know plenty of libertarians with jobs. Even in my field.

It isn't the run of the mill libertarian that has to worry.  It is the goofball who acts like a loon in public or somewhere their antics are recorded and linked to the person.



One last thing...

You made the following statements:
1. You wish to come to the USA, presumably to immigrate & become a citizen
2. You are a radical / revolutionary

Pardon me if I am less than enthusiastic at the prospect of #1, given #2.

We need not import from afar folks who have no love of the principles of the COTUS.  There are enough here in bulk, without adding to their numbers.

Also, given your stated beliefs as a radical/revolutionary, you would have to swear falsely while taking the oath of citizenship.  See, it has certain bits about supporting the COTUS that your average radical/revo/minarchist agenda is set on destroying.

Now, lying and oath-breaking do seem the fashion, especially given that so many in the US Congress provide a fine example to follow. 

But, some odd folks like myself who took a similar oath take it seriously and get bent out of shape when others break theirs or whose statements indicate that they will be swearing falsely.


Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton