Author Topic: Toyta Prius Review  (Read 8090 times)

Brad Johnson

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2008, 08:33:24 AM »
  What about other factors in "cost of ownership"?

Well, there's the $7000-$8000 cost of battery pack replacement at 100k (+/- 15K).

Brad
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roo_ster

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2008, 08:41:50 AM »
"My point was that the stereo controls for non-pre-programmed stations are inconvenient and dangerous to operate while driving."

You do realize that that describes a LOT of the cars currently on the market, right?

Yes, but the Prius is an extreme example.

The usual stereo unit has a seek or scan button that you can glance at, mash, and be on your way.  The Prius requires several button/touchscreen mashes in a particular order to accomplish the same thing.  Not only that, some of the touchscreen and real buttons are close enough that it is easy to hork it up even if you watch what you are doing.

Heck, in the last year I have had 15+ rental cars, consisting of ~10 different models.  The Prius tops them all when it comes to difficulty/distraction to accomplish that task.
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roo_ster

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mtnbkr

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2008, 08:43:05 AM »
I did some poking around regarding the battery issue.  There isn't any good data for battery replacement because it very rarely happens.  Manufacturers expect the batteries to last between 150k and 200k under normal use. According to one FAQ I read, Toyota claims to have never replaced a battery due to wear and tear.

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-batteries-none-the-worse-for-wear-cga.htm

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And Toyota claims that not one has required a battery replacement due to malfunction or "wearing out." The only replacement batteries sold--at the retail price of $3000--have been for cars that were involved in accidents. Toyota further claims that the nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) battery packs used in all Prius models are expected to last the life of the car with very little to no degradation in power capability.

For those of us who have cell phones and other devices with NiMH batteries, that claim may sound unrealistic. Over time, the battery's charge longevity seems to wane, resulting in shorter and shorter usage between charges. Eventually, the battery becomes worthless and we buy a replacement.

But in the case of most electronic devices, the batteries tend to get fully charged, then nearly fully discharged before being charged again. For the power pack in the Prius, at least, Toyota says this would greatly shorten the life span of the battery.

A navigation screen converts to show the driver what type of power the Prius is using, gas or electric. 
To get maximum life out of the Prius battery pack, the car's computer brain does not allow the battery to fully charge or discharge. Toyota says that for the best service life, the Prius battery likes to be kept at about a 60 percent charge. In normal operation, the system usually lets the charge level vary only 10-15 percentage points. Therefore, the battery is rarely more than 75 percent charged, or less than 45 percent charged.

According to Toyota, the life of the Prius battery pack is determined more by mileage than by time, and it has been tested to 180,000 miles. Supporting this are first- and second-generation Prius taxis in Canada that have reportedly traveled more than 200,000 miles without suffering any battery problems.

Chris

Manedwolf

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2008, 08:45:38 AM »
"My point was that the stereo controls for non-pre-programmed stations are inconvenient and dangerous to operate while driving."

You do realize that that describes a LOT of the cars currently on the market, right?

Yes, but the Prius is an extreme example.

The usual stereo unit has a seek or scan button that you can glance at, mash, and be on your way.  The Prius requires several button/touchscreen mashes in a particular order to accomplish the same thing.  Not only that, some of the touchscreen and real buttons are close enough that it is easy to hork it up even if you watch what you are doing.

Heck, in the last year I have had 15+ rental cars, consisting of ~10 different models.  The Prius tops them all when it comes to difficulty/distraction to accomplish that task.

This is why you hire a user interface designer with the correct degrees and a portfolio of successful design. Obviously, they didn't.

Sounds like what killed most early (and still also-ran) MP3 players. They let the engineers, or worse, the MBAhead committees design the interface.

bedlamite

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2008, 08:49:29 AM »
This is why you hire a user interface designer with the correct degrees and a portfolio of successful design. Obviously, they didn't.

Sounds like what killed most early (and still also-ran) MP3 players. They let the engineers, or worse, the MBAhead committees design the interface.


There are 3 engineers on my trap team. One of their biggest gripes is that marketing wants to throw the KISS rule out the window.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2008, 08:55:35 AM »
This is why you hire a user interface designer with the correct degrees and a portfolio of successful design. Obviously, they didn't.

Sounds like what killed most early (and still also-ran) MP3 players. They let the engineers, or worse, the MBAhead committees design the interface.


There are 3 engineers on my trap team. One of their biggest gripes is that marketing wants to throw the KISS rule out the window.

To be fair, though, engineers are often pretty horrific at aesthetic design. Smiley For some reason, whenever they deliver a web app to me, it's usually in NAVY BLUE AND RED or some other eye-hurting solid-color blandness, and I've got to soften it up and give it a pleasing palette and intuitive controls. And what makes sense UI-wise to an engineer is probably not going to make sense to the average user. Sometimes that need to add more layers is to accommodate the very real fact that different users will have different ways of thinking that will cause them to take different paths, and a good design will allow for multiple paths to the same destination to accommodate that. It's also why all designs should be tried with test users and visual tracking of where they look, along with a red flag on anything that causes confusion.

Just look at engineer-designed sites like Sourceforge. Just TRY to find the simple "Download it here" link.  cheesy (it's usually a tiny 8px font link down at the bottom of a huge scroll of source and build revisions)

Brad Johnson

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2008, 09:07:43 AM »
Quote
Manufacturers expect the batteries to last between 150k and 200k under normal use.


M'kay, so figure $4000 per 100k.  That's 4 cents per mile just for the battery pack.

So....

Battery pack costs per 100k = 4 cents per mile.
$3.70 gas at 40 mpg = 9.25 cents per mile.
Total fuel cost = 13.25 cent per mile

At 13.25 cents per mile fuel cost, and using the same $3.70 fuel, any vehicle that gets 27.92 mpg or better (highway) trounces the Prius in per-mile fuel cost.  And no battery pack full of toxic heavy metals to deal with, or to have manufactured in the first place.

There are a whole host of vehicles that get at least 27-28 mpg highway that are larger, more comfortable, more powerful, safer, and have fewer expensive doo-dads to fail.  Luminas, Tuarus/500s, and a bunch of other 'family' sedans regularly top 30.  Heck, even a standard Crown Vic (not the 3.27 geared Sport model) will get a real-world 25-26 mpg highway.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

mtnbkr

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2008, 09:22:28 AM »
But is your $8k replacement cost correct (I think that number is from the early days of hybrids)?  Batteries are as low as $725 shipped from Ebay, and about $3k elsewhere.  What does it take to replace one?  It can't be upwards of $5k in labor.  I also remember reading somewhere that the NiMH batteries are recycled or can be at least.  Anyway, the benefit IMO of a hybrid is town driving.  Like I said above, there are many "standard" vehicles that do nearly as well as a Prius (and the Camry Hybrid isn't much better on the highway than my standard Camry), but none do as well in town.

I wouldn't own one today, but I won't write them off yet either.  Give them a few years and let's see what the engineering folks do with the concept.

Chris

Manedwolf

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2008, 09:24:49 AM »
There is, of course, another aspect of hybrids and even moreso, all-electric cars that people haven't taken into account much.

They make firefighters and other first responders very skittish, with good reason. They don't want to be electrocuted. If you get into a crash in one, you might be stuck in it for a good while until they can ensure that the battery system is shut off and not likely to blast someone if they use the jaws of life and tear a cable.

http://www.komotv.com/news/local/7445836.html

Quote
"If it's not handled properly it's gonna kill you"

Story Published: May 10, 2007 at 11:16 PM PDT

Story Updated: May 11, 2007 at 11:36 AM PDT
By Michelle Esteban
Watch the story
SEATTLE -- Right now, 1.5 percent of all cars sold in the U.S. are hybrids, and in three years that number is expected to be six times higher. At some local dealerships they even have waiting lists for customers who want to purchase a hybrid vehicle.

But what makes these cars so desirable, is also creating an extra danger.

The problem starts right under the hood, where most hybrids have bright orange cables carrying high-voltage electricity between the batteries and engine. Those cables can be a hot zone for firefighters responding to collisions involving hybrids.

Emergency responders have an inherently hazardous job, but the proliferation of hybrid vehicles is adding to the potential dangers they face on a daily basis.

The risk of electrocution is very real.

"If it's not handled properly it's gonna kill you," said Seattle firefighter Tim Clark. "You have to understand what it is you're dealing with."

The combination gas-electric vehicles have up to 500 volts running through them, and can also pose a danger to passengers in a crash.

When firefighters are called to high-speed collisions, they often have to cut drivers and passengers out of the mangled vehicles.

But cut in the wrong place on a hybrid car before the battery is disconnected, and it could result in a lethal shock.

Clark says its just one more thing they have to think about when they're rushing to save lives. "If we don't spend a couple seconds on this, we could end up wishing we had," he said.

Camano Island / Stanwood Fire Chief Darin Reid said that because of the complex electrical systems found in hybrid cars, they don't always behave the same way in a crash as traditional vehicles.

"You could very well have a hybrid car moving while on fire," he said. And because the hybrid's electric motor is silent, firefighters can't always tell if it's running.

Reid said that if rescuers wrongly assume that the engine is off, one wrong move could launch the hybrid into drive, with the victim still inside and firefighters on or near the vehicle.

Fore the last seven years, Reid has been teaching everything he knows about hybrids to Washington firefighters. There are some standard do's and don'ts, but he reminds everyone that not all hybrids are the same. The electrical systems vary from one manufacturer to another.

"No company puts the wiring in the same spot," Reid said.

So, many fire departments often rely on the Internet when responding to crashes involving hybrid vehicles. It's not uncommon for firefighters to call up a manufacturer's web site so they can double-check the car's emergency response guidelines.

Matt Stroud, a safety instructor with Toyota, spends much of his time training firefighters on how to safely deal with a Prius at the scene of a crash.

Firefighters will often take field trips to area dealerships to practice disconnecting the car's electrical system.

"All hybrids, including the Prius, have a built-in safety system that's supposed to turn the car off if it's in a crash," Stroud said.

But the hybrid isn't fully safe until the battery is disconnected.

"You've still got a boost factor of 500 volts," Stroud said, referring to a situation when the engine has shut down, but the batteries are still sending electricity through the cables.

In March, a hybrid vehicle crashed into a convenience store in Tacoma and caught fire. Firefighters extinguished the flames, but because they were worried the car was still energized, they called a local dealership to walk them through disconnecting the battery.

Safety is so important to Stroud, he's writing an emergency pocket guide for firefighters -- the first of its kind. Seattle firefighters will be the first in the nation to get the guide.

Reid says the risks are manageable, but that it's crucial to educate rescuers. "When seconds do count, it's a lot less scary if firefighters know what they're up against."

Tim Clark doesn't think it will be much of a problem for area firefighters.

"It's a challenge," he said, "but we like that kind of thing."

K Frame

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2008, 09:31:09 AM »
Fuel cells. The wave of the future.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

mtnbkr

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2008, 09:32:53 AM »
There is, of course, another aspect of hybrids and even moreso, all-electric cars that people haven't taken into account much.

They make firefighters and other first responders very skittish, with good reason. They don't want to be electrocuted. If you get into a crash in one, you might be stuck in it for a good while until they can ensure that the battery system is shut off and not likely to blast someone if they use the jaws of life and tear a cable.

That is, until they get training, which they should all have by now.

Wife's dad, brother, and at least one cousin are firefighters.  I work with a guy who's hazmat trained and is the volunteer equiv of "Chief".

None of them consider hybrids a big deal anymore.

Chris

Brad Johnson

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2008, 09:34:04 AM »
Quote
But is your $8k replacement cost correct (I think that number is from the early days of hybrids)?  Batteries are as low as $725 shipped from Ebay, and about $3k elsewhere.

That was the number being bandied about last year.  I haven't checked it lately.

If the cost was half the number I used, that takes the total fuel cost to $11.25 cents per mile.  That's a 32.89 mpg equivalent, still well within the realm of most modern mid-sized sedans.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

mtnbkr

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2008, 09:37:23 AM »
Quote
But is your $8k replacement cost correct (I think that number is from the early days of hybrids)?  Batteries are as low as $725 shipped from Ebay, and about $3k elsewhere.

That was the number being bandied about last year.  I haven't checked it lately.

If the cost was half the number I used, that takes the total fuel cost to $11.25 cents per mile.  That's a 32.89 mpg equivalent, still well within the realm of most modern mid-sized sedans.

Brad

I did some poking around.  If you can even find a number, it's in the $3k range, but with most hybrids still under warranty, few folks have had to pay out of pocket yet. 

Chris

Manedwolf

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2008, 09:48:40 AM »
There is, of course, another aspect of hybrids and even moreso, all-electric cars that people haven't taken into account much.

They make firefighters and other first responders very skittish, with good reason. They don't want to be electrocuted. If you get into a crash in one, you might be stuck in it for a good while until they can ensure that the battery system is shut off and not likely to blast someone if they use the jaws of life and tear a cable.

That is, until they get training, which they should all have by now.

Wife's dad, brother, and at least one cousin are firefighters.  I work with a guy who's hazmat trained and is the volunteer equiv of "Chief".

None of them consider hybrids a big deal anymore.

Chris

Should. Judging by articles like that, in some places they haven't. undecided

And it's the driver's problem, if they've got to be stuck injured in a crashed hybrid while an uneducated responder team is browsing the manufacturer's website. (!)

Sounds like you have to roll the dice as to if they'll have had training or not.

mtnbkr

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2008, 10:01:31 AM »
1st: That article is a year old and wasn't "news" back then. Shame on any dept who hasn't at least addressed the issue.

2nd: Training for special circumstances is required all the time.  This time it might be your hybrid, next time it might be something else.  I was adviced to avoid a certain material for my deck when discussing it with my firefighter coworker because it burned in such a way to make water almost useless when extinguishing it.  If the responding trucks didn't have foam, they would have to use almost all their water on just the deck alone.  He was going to set up some special training to determine the best way to fight fires involving this material.

Doesn't matter what you do, you're always in danger of finding yourself in a situation First Responders might not be trained for...

Chris

GigaBuist

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2008, 04:12:17 PM »
IIRC, 2008 fuel efficiency standards appear SHARPLY lower than 07 and before, even for the same model vehicle, due to adjustments to the testing procedure.

Yep.  The tests try harder to actually duplicate how the average driver drives, which is pretty poor in terms of fuel efficiency.  That's one nice thing about the Prius I drove once:  it graphs out what your fuel economy is in 5 minute averages and you can kind of turn it into a game.

JohnBT

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2008, 05:40:29 PM »
"Yaris: 29/35"

Heck, I'm driving an '06 Avalon and get a solid 27 -27.5 mpg with the cruise control set on 72 and my foot punching it up to 80 frequently, even going up the mountain. If I stick to a straight 65 mph or so with only a little hard passing I can get 30-32 mpg on regular.

Big roomy car, 268-hp, and 0-60 in 6.4 seconds according to the car magazines, although I've never timed it. And the Yaris gets 35 mpg? Big whoop.


Three folks at work have a Prius and they don't get anywhere near the claimed mileage.

John

P.S. - And to the guy driving the Prius on I-81 in the left lane - MOVE OVER, the 21 cars behind you have been trying to get by for the last 3 miles.

thebaldguy

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Re: Toyta Prius Review
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2008, 04:57:47 PM »
We looked at a Prius a few years ago. I'm not sure if I liked it. It didn't seem like a real car. It was four or five thousand dollars more than a Corolla. We figured that we could drive pretty far on the five thousand dollar difference in price. We have a 04 Toyota Corolla that gets 40 MPG on the highway cruising at 70-75 MPH. In city only driving, it drops to 24 MPG. Our 93 Cherokee Sport with a 5 speed gets 26 MPG on the highway, and 19 MPG around town.

We don't drive the Jeep much any more. It's a winter toy for snow and when both of us need to drive somewhere.