Author Topic: Phonics?  (Read 4907 times)

Perd Hapley

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Phonics?
« on: May 25, 2008, 05:14:57 AM »
Is fonics good?  Orr is fonicks badd?  Do most teachers use phonics to teach reading? 

I listen to Phyliss Schlafly quite a bit, and she's always bemoaning the lack of phonics instruction in the classroom.  But according to the Wiki entry for Phonics, a number of .gov panels have looked into reading instruction methods, and all of them have recommended phonics as PART OF a successful reading program. 

 
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wmenorr67

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Re: Phonics?
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2008, 05:17:13 AM »
As the one and only way, no.  It has to be worked with other forms of instruction.
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Standing Wolf

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Re: Phonics?
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2008, 07:23:44 AM »
English isn't spelled phonetically, so no, phonics isn't sufficient.

That said", my understanding of English took off like a rocket when I undertook the study of Greek and Latin as a boy. Seeing common roots intrigued me, and led me onward toward the perception English grammar makes clear, consistent, logical sense. Years later, I realized English grammar is considerably less like those of other languages than I'd thought, but small matter.

Having hired and fired plenty of writers over the years, to say nothing of editing their copy, I can assure you people who understand prefixes, roots, and suffixes write better than those who don't, and people who make regular, frequent use of dictionaries write far better than those who don't.
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Tallpine

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Re: Phonics?
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2008, 08:26:18 AM »
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English isn't spelled phonetically

Correct, it should be "Inglish"  laugh


We homeschooled our daughters with phonics.  At around age 8 they could read out loud from the Old Testament, sounding out all the long tongue-twisting names by themselves.   smiley

With only a couple exceptions, the adults in the room could not do nearly as well  rolleyes
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Phonics?
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2008, 08:32:21 AM »
Whole-word instruction is far worse.

I've worked with children who went exclusively through whole-word instruction.

One outstanding example was a child that remembered that "hen" is the bird that lays egs, and "Chicken" was also the same bird.

So every time she saw the word "hen", she would scream out, enthusiastically:

CHICKEN!

It took me three weeks to get her to unlearn that.
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Re: Phonics?
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2008, 08:38:16 AM »
The data behind phonics is heavily tied up with America's wars.

That is because wars are when the gov't gets its hands on large numbers of post-HS men and pokes, prods, and tests them.

Over the course of some of our larger wars, say, from the Civil War onwards, the writing ability of Joe Average Soldier has declined (controlled for education level).  That decline was accompanied by a shift from phonics techniques to others (whole word, etc.).  So, there is a good amount of correlation, but that sort of data can not be used to determine causation.

Which brings us to Education Colleges/Schools.  Back in the day, they were used to train teachers to teach, using methods that had worked and been found to work.  Despite any lack of sophistication we might ascribe to such institutions in the 19th Century, such schools had the advantage of dealing with a known factor: human nature.  It had not changed since Shakespeare or Homer.  What worked for a majority of Athenians, pedagogically-speaking, will work for Americans.  When it comes down to it, you don't need computers, letters behind your name (BA/MA/PhD), or an understanding of genetics to teach children to read.

Fast forward a bit and these Colleges of Education get mroe "sophisticated."  PhD programs develop, along with the need to publish/propound new & different theories, techniques, etc.  An ambitious young man or woman is not going to get that advanced sheepskin if he boils down his thesis to: "Anyone of average intelligence and education can teach a child to read, if they are of a mind to do so."

Instead, you see a baker's dozen of educanto theories proposed and inflicted upon kiddos.  Add to it that this was during the ascendancy of the Progressive Movement, which had(s) as goals the indoctrination of children, alienation of them from thier family, and had a great prejudice in favor of technocracy.  And saw individual humans as mere cogs in the machinery of the State.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Phonics?
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2008, 10:02:51 AM »
Quote
Add to it that this was during the ascendancy of the Progressive Movement, which had(s) as goals the indoctrination of children, alienation of them from thier family, and had a great prejudice in favor of technocracy.  And saw individual humans as mere cogs in the machinery of the State.

And saw human nature as malleable.
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Re: Phonics?
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2008, 10:33:19 AM »
MB:

That was a very large omission on my part.

Thanks for stating clearly what I neglected to.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Phonics?
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2008, 10:49:49 AM »
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English isn't spelled phonetically

Correct, it should be "Inglish"  laugh 


You mean Anglish?   smiley
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Tallpine

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Re: Phonics?
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2008, 11:51:50 AM »
Quote
English isn't spelled phonetically

Correct, it should be "Inglish"  laugh 


You mean Anglish?   smiley

Well, I might spell it "Beurla"  laugh
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lee n. field

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Re: Phonics?
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2008, 03:27:54 PM »
Phonics is good.  Yes, Anglik is ferociously irregular.  A legacy of taking bits and pieces of the languages of every conquering horde to sweep through the island. 
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cosine

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Re: Phonics?
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2008, 03:31:31 PM »
Sounds like a good time to dust off this old gem, originally posted by zahc:

"English got where it is today by following other languages down dark alleys, hitting them over the head and going through their pockets for loose grammar."
Andy

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Re: Phonics?
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2008, 12:45:19 AM »
I'll never forget the old GF. Ready to graduate from Sand Diego State. read some of her papwers. The girl could not spell. How does one go all the way through college not being able to spell? The only thing in her favor was that she was a Phys Ed major so I guess it really didn't matter, but still...  rolleyes
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Iain

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Re: Phonics?
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2008, 03:08:50 AM »
I'll never forget the old GF. Ready to graduate from Sand Diego State. read some of her papwers. The girl could not spell. How does one go all the way through college not being able to spell? The only thing in her favor was that she was a Phys Ed major so I guess it really didn't matter, but still...  rolleyes

I knew a girl at university who could barely spell. She's got an engineering PhD now. Still can't spell.

fistful - I wouldn't let Phyllis' progeny know you listen to her and check out stuff on wikipedia. His head will explode.
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280plus

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Re: Phonics?
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2008, 06:16:20 AM »
Quote
I knew a girl at university who could barely spell. She's got an engineering PhD now. Still can't spell.
Go figure...  rolleyes

Is it common university courtesy to overlook a colleague's inability to spell? One would think being highly educated would predispose you to proper spelling and grammar. Guess not...
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cosine

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Re: Phonics?
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2008, 08:26:56 AM »
I knew a girl at university who could barely spell. She's got an engineering PhD now. Still can't spell.

It's a common problem. I had to work this past semester with several other freshman engineering students, and none of them could spell well.
Andy

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Re: Phonics?
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2008, 08:39:29 AM »
I'll never forget the old GF. Ready to graduate from Sand Diego State. read some of her papwers. The girl could not spell. How does one go all the way through college not being able to spell? The only thing in her favor was that she was a Phys Ed major so I guess it really didn't matter, but still...  rolleyes
Perhaps her teachers couldn't spell either, and thus they didn't notice her mistakes?

Tallpine

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Re: Phonics?
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2008, 10:09:46 AM »
Spelling is only important at Hogwarts Wink
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Phonics?
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2008, 10:34:22 AM »
I went to an ABC school.  We had to memorize multiplication tables and the phonics sounds to advance in grade.

Got quizzed on a flash card for one or the other to get into lunch every day, memorization was not a terrible burden and gave a solid grounding for further learning.

Which is what "rote learning" is all about.

Like any teaching technique, it can't be used in a vacuum, but it certainly appears, given the grammar and spelling I see online and in various juvenile Letters to the Editor, much more effective than "whole word".
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Phonics?
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2008, 11:15:35 AM »
I should mention again the sign that I saw at a yard sale a couple of days ago:

"NOT RELIABLE FOR ACCEDENTS."     laugh
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Re: Phonics?
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2008, 07:01:40 AM »
I knew a girl at university who could barely spell. She's got an engineering PhD now. Still can't spell.

It's a common problem. I had to work this past semester with several other freshman engineering students, and none of them could spell well.

Duhhhh, Why do you think their engineering students ??
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mtnbkr

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Re: Phonics?
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2008, 07:14:34 AM »
Duhhhh, Why do you think their engineering students ??
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Emphasis mine. laugh

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MechAg94

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Re: Phonics?
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2008, 08:31:37 AM »
English teachers and literature types cared about spelling.  Engineering professors didn't for the most part.  Since all your papers were on word processors, most spelling mistakes were taken care of.
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lee n. field

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Re: Phonics?
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2008, 08:40:51 AM »
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Since all your papers were on word processors, most spelling mistakes were taken care of.

Sort of.  I've seen spell check miss some wild ones.  "I am happy to meat you."
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MechAg94

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Re: Phonics?
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2008, 08:46:18 AM »
Yes, you still need to proof your work.  Reading it backwards helps avoid reading past some of those mistakes.  MS Word has a decent grammar filter also.  I used to have a speech teacher complain that my writing was too passive.  MS Word flagged passive voice sentences and I just edited them all out.  It read like stereo instructions, but that was what he wanted. 

I was thinking we did phonics of a sort when I was learning to read.  If I remember right, it was combined with learning the rules for pronouncing certain syllables and prefixes/suffixes like -ed.  I don't remember having any trouble with it. 
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