Author Topic: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.  (Read 22909 times)

Dntsycnt

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Re: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2008, 01:01:41 PM »
ZING!  More useless analogy.  I bet you feel like you "win" though, right?

Brad Johnson

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Re: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2008, 02:17:42 PM »
Being realistic has nothing to do with winning or losing.  It's about seeing things for what they are, not what you think they should be. 

Once that hurdle is cleared you can start seeing things for what they can become, and how you can most effectively make that happen.

Brad
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Desertdog

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Re: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2008, 02:55:08 PM »
The reason Bill Clinton was elected the first time was because of a 3rd Party Candidate split the Republican vote.

McCain is a Presidential candidate because there were more than 2 candidates for the Republican primary election, thus splitting the votes 3 ways.  McCain ended up with less votes than the 2 running against him.


MicroBalrog

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Re: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2008, 12:00:29 AM »
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The reason Bill Clinton was elected the first time was because of a 3rd Party Candidate split the Republican vote.

Which resulted in the biggest cuts in the welfare rolls in the history of America. What's your point?
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Desertdog

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Re: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2008, 04:34:30 AM »
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The reason Bill Clinton was elected the first time was because of a 3rd Party Candidate split the Republican vote.

Which resulted in the biggest cuts in the welfare rolls in the history of America. What's your point?
A third party vote for the Libertarian Party or Constitutional Party is a vote for Obama.  A vote for the Green Party is a vote for McCain. 
The biggest cuts in the welare rolls was passed by the Republican Congress, not Wiley Willie.

thebaldguy

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Re: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2008, 01:29:09 PM »
Voting is not the horse track; we should not vote for who should win, but we should vote for the best candidate.

If I vote third party, that means that the other two monopoly parties have failed to convince me to vote for them.


lupinus

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Re: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2008, 02:06:40 PM »
no it means you are an idealist who would rather charge the trenches and die gloriously then walk through the mud for awhile while you march around for a flanking maneuver
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Manedwolf

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Re: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2008, 11:16:20 PM »
no it means you are an idealist who would rather charge the trenches and die gloriously then walk through the mud for awhile while you march around for a flanking maneuver

Exactly.

In the real world, sometimes you have to make unpleasant choices to avoid an even more unpleasant outcome.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2008, 12:39:48 AM »
Must you continue to insist that we choose between "reality" and "freedom"?

God forbid, you should ever choose to make freedom a reality.


MicroBalrog

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Re: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2008, 01:23:31 AM »
no it means you are an idealist who would rather charge the trenches and die gloriously then walk through the mud for awhile while you march around for a flanking maneuver

So what's your flanking maneuver?
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lupinus

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Re: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2008, 04:12:24 AM »
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So what's your flanking maneuver?
We suck it up and choose the guy who will screw the country up less.  In this case, McCain.  It will be McCain or Obama, there is no other realistic choice and a vote for Barr or anyone like that is a vote for Obama.  See deal with walking through the mud for awhile rather then charging the trench for a glorious death.

Then, rather then waiting for the last minute pick our next candidate early, throw united support behind him, and get a real republican and note a rino next time. 

We had good prospects this time around, but to much support was divided.  If everyone who went for Huckabee, Romney(yes, Romney is a RINO, I know this, the voters apparently didn't), Paul, Thompson, etc put their support behind one good candidate McCain would have been a memory and we would have a good candidate right now.

Then once we have said good candidate out of the primaries initiate flank.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

macadore

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Re: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2008, 04:33:24 AM »
If a third party gets a substantial percentage of the votes, both political parties will move in that direction to try and capture those votes (e.g., Ross Perot and the balanced budget).

IMO the Libertarian party should focus on Congress rather than the Presidential campaigns. If they had a substantial part of Congress they could do more with a smaller part of the electorate than they can with a failed Presidential campaign. If they had ten percent of the seats in Congress, neither of the other parties could pass legislation without the approval of the Libertarians. That would go a long way to prevent government meddling in our private lives.

seeker_two

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Re: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2008, 05:24:42 AM »
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So what's your flanking maneuver?
We suck it up and choose the guy who will screw the country up less.  In this case, McCain.  It will be McCain or Obama, there is no other realistic choice and a vote for Barr or anyone like that is a vote for Obama.  See deal with walking through the mud for awhile rather then charging the trench for a glorious death.

Then, rather then waiting for the last minute pick our next candidate early, throw united support behind him, and get a real republican and note a rino next time. 

We had good prospects this time around, but to much support was divided.  If everyone who went for Huckabee, Romney(yes, Romney is a RINO, I know this, the voters apparently didn't), Paul, Thompson, etc put their support behind one good candidate McCain would have been a memory and we would have a good candidate right now.

Then once we have said good candidate out of the primaries initiate flank.

Looks good on paper.....but just on paper......

If we support a RINO now, all we'll get from the GOP in the future are RINO's ("it's what the people want...").

If anything, we should find out who will be going to the Republican convention (as well as our current Republican representatives in DC and each state) and let them know that, if they nominate McCain, that the GOP will never get a vote or a dollar from us again. That kind of pressure will affect what happens on the floor and may get conservative ideas guaranteed if not a better candidated (at this point, I'd settle for Huckabee or Romney).

To go with your analogy, flanking maneuvers didn't work so well in trench warfare.....unless you send in the sappers after dark first.....  cool
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Desertdog

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Re: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2008, 05:46:25 AM »
Quote
We had good prospects this time around, but too much support was divided.  If everyone who went for Huckabee, Romney(yes, Romney is a RINO, I know this, the voters apparently didn't), Paul, Thompson, etc put their support behind one good candidate McCain would have been a memory and we would have a good candidate right now.
I think we need to have 2 primary elections.  The first would let anybody that wants to to run for Presdent.  The top 2 candidates from the 1st primary would be the only 2 to run in the Big Primary, not 5, or 6, or 10 to split the vote so that somebody like McCain would be the one running for president.

If you took all of the votes that did not go to McCain and gave them to one candidate, I believe McCain would not be running now, it would be Hucabee or Romney

AJ Dual

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Re: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2008, 06:21:44 AM »
If a third party gets a substantial percentage of the votes, both political parties will move in that direction to try and capture those votes (e.g., Ross Perot and the balanced budget).

IMO the Libertarian party should focus on Congress rather than the Presidential campaigns. If they had a substantial part of Congress they could do more with a smaller part of the electorate than they can with a failed Presidential campaign. If they had ten percent of the seats in Congress, neither of the other parties could pass legislation without the approval of the Libertarians. That would go a long way to prevent government meddling in our private lives.


So who in either party has made a huge push for balanced budgets that wasn't already due to Perot?

Thought so.

Both parties response to the third-party spoilers is to close their eyes, cross their fingers, and pray 'those freaks' don't show up to spoil the party again in four years.

As others have said, use the primary process to turn the incumbant bums out. Case in point, the guy in Utah who had a nearly 99% "A rating" from whatever Conservative think-tank who rates such things, except he was for illegal amnesty. He got turned out with a 60/40 landslide in the primary.

I know it's a catch-22 but the corollary to "nothing changes if you vote third-party" is that the other party you really hate cleans up, laughing all the way to victory, and nothing changes either, or it gets worse.

This is where the "Let the Libertarians run for dog-catcher first" argument comes into play. If you want policy/platform changes, you need to get your third party that represents your ideals a significant block in the legislature FIRST, then both dominant parties will have to modify their legislation and policy to woo the other voting blocks to get majorities.

Constantly focusing on executive branch elections to debate the "third party catch-22" is not very productive. The biggest effects the next POTUS is going to have on America is foreign policy and Federal Judges. Otherwise, all he will be doing is signing or vetoing the bills that Congress sends him.

The loss of stature and weakness internationally we'll suffer from Obama, (I somewhat ascribe to the more pissed off the rest of the world is, the better we're doing theory...) and the ultra-liberal justices he'll appoint who'll serve for decades will have a much longer lasting effect than just the four/eight year election cycle. Even if America, the Republicans, or whoever, "wake up" and start running your  dream candidates, those bad changes will not be something he/she will be able to undo in your lifetime. Legislation can be reversed within an election cycle. 30 years of a SCOTUS Justice, or a complete shift in the geopolitical power balance, not so easy...

Ultimately, protest votes for executive office are LAZY. Because you can go down with the ship, striking a moral pose, and wash your hands of what happens next, even when in a way it's partially your fault. Whereas trying to run your third-party candidates for legislative races, where local involvement is higher, and maybe that lesser of two evils executive only gets bills that are ones you like,  just starts sounding a bit too much like "work"...  rolleyes

So YES, you vote for the "lesser of two evils" in the Executive races, and you make your principled stand at the local/legislative level.
I promise not to duck.

MicroBalrog

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Re: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2008, 06:48:59 AM »
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Even if America, the Republicans, or whoever, "wake up" and start running your  dream candidates, those bad changes will not be something he/she will be able to undo in your lifetime.

I for one don't really care for international status. I'd rather live in a free country than in a world superpower that isn't free. Russia was a world power and my parents moved out.
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freakazoid

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Re: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2008, 06:55:23 AM »
Why would you want it to be slow death compared to a fast one? It is like the frog analogy. You throw a frog into a bowling pot it will jump right out, but if you put it in one at room temperature and slowly turn up the heat it will sit in there till it boils to death. If it is a slow death with McCain then people will just keep on being comfortable with how things are just as long as it doesn't change to fast, but with Obama things will go to bad to fast and people will start to notice.
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macadore

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Re: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2008, 09:30:45 AM »

So who in either party has made a huge push for balanced budgets that wasn't already due to Perot?

Thought so.

Bill Clinton

lupinus

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Re: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2008, 11:48:08 AM »
Seeker-

We have a choice thats the primaries.  If you don't like the primaries all we can do after that is damage control.

Next primary is where we can shine.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Jamisjockey

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Re: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2008, 12:54:43 PM »
Bob Barr may be a great candidate and I would love to vote for him, but he cannot win as a Libertarian or any other 3rd party candidate.

Do you wonder why not?  Why do I make such a strong statement?

It is very simple why he cannot win.  The last time I checked, not long ago, the Libertarian party is on the ballot of 28 of the 50 states.  And the Constitutional Party is on 20 states.

How can a Libertarian candidate win when they are not on the ballot in every state?

Run to be a Congressman or Senator and I will vote for you if you are in my district.

The answer is simple.  It tells both parties that thier candidates aren't acceptable to a large number of people.  If they want to start thinking about how to win an election, they'll start taking third party competition seriously.
Oh, and I'd rather vote my concious than a "winner".  I have no need to win.  I do have the need to be rightous in my decision making.  McCain is a RINO.  Big spending and big debt.   Probably going to be a WarMonger and get us into a fight with Iran.
Obama.....yeah....hammer and sickle....
No matter who wins the election, I have to look at myself in the mirror in the morning afterwards.  I cannot in good concious vote for either of those asses.
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Manedwolf

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Re: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2008, 02:15:26 PM »
You saw Heller, right?

5-4.

McCain would likely put a conservative on the Supreme Court.

Obama would put a hard-left liberal, as hard left as he can find.

Heller will be back in the form of additional lawsuits brought against cities and in the form of national concealed carry and the like.

If you want it to be 5-4 liberal NO next time, or 6-3 liberal NO!, then, by all means, vote third party.

I am NOT WILLING TO RISK THAT.

macadore

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Re: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2008, 03:22:01 PM »
You saw Heller, right?

5-4.

McCain would likely put a conservative on the Supreme Court.

Obama would put a hard-left liberal, as hard left as he can find.

Heller will be back in the form of additional lawsuits brought against cities and in the form of national concealed carry and the like.

If you want it to be 5-4 liberal NO next time, or 6-3 liberal NO!, then, by all means, vote third party.

I am NOT WILLING TO RISK THAT.

Excellent point!

Balog

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Re: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.
« Reply #47 on: June 28, 2008, 03:56:26 PM »
Quote from: Manedwolf
McCain would likely put a conservative on the Supreme Court.

I doubt it. He'd likely put a pro-illegal, anti-free speech, global warming kool-aid drinker in.

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Manedwolf

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Re: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.
« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2008, 04:04:14 PM »
Quote from: Manedwolf
McCain would likely put a conservative on the Supreme Court.

I doubt it. He'd likely put a pro-illegal, anti-free speech, global warming kool-aid drinker in.



and Obama would put who in?

The only choices for who is going to put the next justice in are McCain and Obama. That's it.

Balog

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Re: The reason not to vote for 3rd party candidate.
« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2008, 04:07:07 PM »
So how are McCain's liberal nominees better than Obama's?
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.