Author Topic: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal  (Read 9852 times)

wmenorr67

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,775
Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« on: July 08, 2008, 07:27:11 AM »
Quote
National security adviser says any security deal must contain timetable

BAGHDAD - Iraq will not accept any security agreement with the United States unless it includes dates for the withdrawal of foreign forces, the government's national security adviser said on Tuesday.

The comments by Mowaffaq al-Rubaie underscore the U.S.-backed government's hardening stance toward a deal with Washington that will provide a legal basis for U.S. troops to operate when a U.N. mandate expires at the end of the year.

On Monday, Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki appeared to catch Washington off-guard by suggesting for the first time that a timetable be set for the departure of U.S. forces under the deal being negotiated, which he called a memorandum of understanding.

Rubaie said Iraq was waiting "impatiently for the day when the last foreign soldier leaves Iraq."

"We can't have a memorandum of understanding with foreign forces unless it has dates and clear horizons determining the departure of foreign forces. We're unambiguously talking about their departure," Rubaie said in the holy *expletive deleted*it city of Najaf.

He was speaking to reporters after meeting Iraq's top *expletive deleted*it cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani.

Rubaie said he spoke to Sistani about the U.S. talks, but did not say if the cleric had an opinion on the negotiations. The revered cleric is routinely briefed on key national issues.

"I informed the (clerical leaders) about some of the advances in the talks. There are real problems and difficulties, and we have many roadblocks ahead. There is a big difference in outlook between us and the Americans," Rubaie said.

The Bush administration has always opposed setting any withdrawal timetable, saying it would allow militant groups to lie low and wait until the 150,000 U.S. troops in Iraq left.

On Tuesday, the White House said the talks were not aimed at setting a hard deadline for withdrawal.

"Negotiations and discussions are ongoing every day," White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said in Japan, where President Bush is attending a Group of Eight summit.

"It is important to understand that these are not talks on a hard date for a withdrawal."

Dispute over immunity for U.S. troops
In a further complication, Iraq's deputy parliament speaker Khalid al-Attiya said lawmakers must approve any deal the Iraqi government reaches and will probably reject the document if American troops are immune from Iraqi law.

It would be virtually unthinkable for the United States to allow its soldiers to be subject to Iraqi law.

Al-Maliki's preference for a memorandum of understanding, which could be an attempt to bypass parliament, is in contrast to earlier talks which have all been leading to the signing of a formal Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA).

"Without doubt, if the two sides reach an agreement, this is between two countries, and according to the Iraqi constitution a national agreement must be agreed by parliament by a majority of two thirds," Attiya told Reuters in an interview.

Washington has SOFA pacts with many countries, and they typically exempt U.S. troops from facing trial or prison abroad.

Iraq said last week Washington was showing flexibility on some key issues, which officials said included dropping a demand for immunity for private contractors working for the U.S. government.

Control of military operations and airspace are other points of contention, along with the detention of prisoners.

Fall in violence emboldens government
Iraq's government has felt increasingly confident in recent weeks about its authority and the country's improved stability, and Iraqi officials have sharpened their public stance in the negotiations considerably in just the last few days.

Violence in Iraq has fallen to its lowest level in four years. The change has been driven by the 2007 buildup of American forces, the Sunni tribal revolt against al-Qaida in Iraq and crackdowns against *expletive deleted*it militias and Sunni extremists.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25585978/

A lot of contractors are also stating they will leave if they lose immunity.
There are five things, above all else, that make life worth living: a good relationship with God, a good woman, good health, good friends, and a good cigar.

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American Soldier.  One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Bacon is the candy bar of meats!

Only the dead have seen the end of war!

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2008, 07:31:19 AM »

longeyes

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,405
Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2008, 08:19:50 AM »
One day we will look back at this war as a noble experiment in "good will" as a substitute for the iron law of vanquishing the enemy.
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,859
Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2008, 11:19:22 AM »
One day we will look back at this war as a noble experiment in "good will" as a substitute for the iron law of vanquishing the enemy.

Who's the enemy that was supposed to be vanquished?  The Iraqi people who support having no foreign troops in their country, and who don't want foreigners being immune from Iraqi laws while in....Iraq?

One day history will look over the documentary records from today, and it will be astounded to find that some ever believed this to be an exercise in "democracy."
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2008, 11:23:47 AM »
One day we will look back at this war as a noble experiment in "good will" as a substitute for the iron law of vanquishing the enemy.

Who's the enemy that was supposed to be vanquished?  The Iraqi people who support having no foreign troops in their country, and who don't want foreigners being immune from Iraqi laws while in....Iraq?

One day history will look over the documentary records from today, and it will be astounded to find that some ever believed this to be an exercise in "democracy."

Uh...Saddam and his psychopath sons?!

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,859
Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2008, 11:29:24 AM »
One day we will look back at this war as a noble experiment in "good will" as a substitute for the iron law of vanquishing the enemy.

Who's the enemy that was supposed to be vanquished?  The Iraqi people who support having no foreign troops in their country, and who don't want foreigners being immune from Iraqi laws while in....Iraq?

One day history will look over the documentary records from today, and it will be astounded to find that some ever believed this to be an exercise in "democracy."

Uh...Saddam and his psychopath sons?!

Who, as bad as they were, did not manage to kill nearly as many people as the catastrophe that followed the 2003 invasion.

I'm glad they're gone too-but that doesn't mean that there's been a sincere effort at democracy in Iraq.  That never was the purpose of the administration, and that fact is obvious from every available source. 

The only aim that makes any sense was to make Iraq like Okinawa or Korea-a base for US operations against its neighbors.  If the Iraqis benefitted in the process, fine, but if they didn't, no big deal....that wasn't really the point.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

The Annoyed Man

  • New Member
  • Posts: 1
Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2008, 12:52:38 PM »
Ah, 'time-table'. Why didn't we think ab --

So, the question now is, do we honor the demands of the sovereign nation we liberated?

Or, do we, as often occurs in classic U.S. government fashion, knock all the pieces off the chess table and start over again with another "democracy"?

Or, maybe we'll just keep giving them chances at democracy until they pick the one we like.

Pakistan has a "democracy" too. We just spent $3 billion on it not long ago.  undecided




lupinus

  • Southern Mod Trimutive Emeritus
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,178
Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2008, 01:02:56 PM »
Well, if they want us out give it to them.  They are their own sovereign nation so respect their wishes.  And if they push no immunity?  Withdraw immediately and leave it to them as they so desire, no phased, just pull back to Kuwait board the planes and boats and come home.

That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 34,595
Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2008, 01:23:07 PM »
Well, if they want us out give it to them.  They are their own sovereign nation so respect their wishes.  And if they push no immunity?  Withdraw immediately and leave it to them as they so desire, no phased, just pull back to Kuwait board the planes and boats and come home.


I agree with that.  If they think they can handle it, let them.  If that other article I posted is correct, that may be why they are rumbling about this.  We are going to have to let them stand on their own eventually.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,859
Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2008, 01:54:18 PM »
Well, if they want us out give it to them.  They are their own sovereign nation so respect their wishes.  And if they push no immunity?  Withdraw immediately and leave it to them as they so desire, no phased, just pull back to Kuwait board the planes and boats and come home.



Even from different political viewpoints on the issue of the middle east, we can agree on a straightforward, no-bs position in support of democracy.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

ilbob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,546
    • Bob's blog
Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2008, 03:46:18 PM »
I am beggining to think that the most logical thing to have done was create three seperate states - kurds, sunni and shia, give everyone a year or two to move where they want to live, and then go home.
bob

Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum.

lupinus

  • Southern Mod Trimutive Emeritus
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,178
Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2008, 04:16:15 PM »
bob-

Wouldn't have worked because the middle of the country is very strong but has the least oil, so you would then see them over running their neighbors.  Bad juju there.

I think a confederacy or loose republic would have been the best thing.  You would then have had independent areas that handled most of their own things for themselves; but centralized enough that oil profits were shared (to avoid fighting mentioned above), common defense against their neighbors or radical factions inside the country getting any ideas, etc.

What we put in place and backed I think is to centralized to maintain peace very long once we leave, and if it does it's going to be a long ride to peace and unity. 
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,859
Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2008, 04:24:46 PM »
I am beggining to think that the most logical thing to have done was create three seperate states - kurds, sunni and shia, give everyone a year or two to move where they want to live, and then go home.

Why not let them decide how to divide up the country?

The fact is that the overwhelming majority of Iraqis do not want a partition-the polls are clear in showing that. 

It's not up to us to decide how they'll do it-that's up to them.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

ilbob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,546
    • Bob's blog
Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2008, 04:29:07 PM »
I am beggining to think that the most logical thing to have done was create three seperate states - kurds, sunni and shia, give everyone a year or two to move where they want to live, and then go home.

Why not let them decide how to divide up the country?

The fact is that the overwhelming majority of Iraqis do not want a partition-the polls are clear in showing that. 

It's not up to us to decide how they'll do it-that's up to them.
we kicked their ass. we get to decide. has always worked that way before.
bob

Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum.

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,859
Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2008, 04:33:33 PM »
I am beggining to think that the most logical thing to have done was create three seperate states - kurds, sunni and shia, give everyone a year or two to move where they want to live, and then go home.

Why not let them decide how to divide up the country?

The fact is that the overwhelming majority of Iraqis do not want a partition-the polls are clear in showing that. 

It's not up to us to decide how they'll do it-that's up to them.
we kicked their ass. we get to decide. has always worked that way before.

Doesn't look like they accept that they're beaten yet, and in any case, the war was supposedly to help them kick Saddam's ass, not to beat the Iraqi people into submission.

This was to reform the middle east by spreading democracy and freedom, remember?

It really doesn't matter how many Iraqis are killed-at this point it's obvious that they aren't going to let us decide for them what Iraq should be.  But it says plenty about your mindset (and why the Iraqis are overwhelmingly against occupation) that you think it's legitimate to force them to comply with foreign demands.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

lupinus

  • Southern Mod Trimutive Emeritus
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,178
Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2008, 04:37:30 PM »
SS-

You can make polls look like whatever you want.  The governments stance (ours) from the start has been one unified Iraq.  Naturally, this is whats been pushed and advanced.  The fact is that those in the oil barren areas would have pushed into the areas that do have oil very quickly.  So just carving it up wouldn't have worked out right.

Of course, if they choose something else more power to them.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,859
Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2008, 04:38:48 PM »
SS-

You can make polls look like whatever you want.  The governments stance (ours) from the start has been one unified Iraq.  Naturally, this is whats been pushed and advanced.  The fact is that those in the oil barren areas would have pushed into the areas that do have oil very quickly.  So just carving it up wouldn't have worked out right.

Of course, if they choose something else more power to them.

I agree it wouldn't have worked-but the Iraqis are with us on that one.  They aren't agitating for a division either-in fact their representatives were outraged when the Senate voted on partitioning Iraq.

But yeah, I agree with you-it's their country and it's their problem. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

longeyes

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,405
Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2008, 05:10:53 PM »
There is a place reserved in Hell for liberals trying to create a morally elevated foreign policy that fails to conform to human nature and national survival.  And this is where we have arrived (and, yes, Bush is a liberal).  It's funny in a tragic sort of way.  We supposedly went to Iraq for realpolitik reasons, to stop a threat to national security, then we got full of ourselves, swollen with unction.  Hubris, in the guise of spreading democracy and nation-building.

Just let the Iraqis do whatever THEY want?  Who here thinks we really just spent five years with high costs in blood and treasure in order to create another untrustworthy "Islamic Republic?"  If we did we had better ask some hard questions of Mr Bush and the State Dept.

The real reason is, or should have been, to plant fortresses in "Indian country."
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

Waitone

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,133
Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2008, 05:29:11 PM »
Eye wash.  Convenient we hear of Iraqi demands for withdrawal date which coincides with a US election. 

Withdraw from Iraqi?  Won't happen anytime soon.  As we speak we are building the largest embassy on the planet.  Last I heard we have under construction mammoth bases out in the middle of nowhere.  Huge airbases and a number of terrestial bases for those who don't fly.  We wage a war right smack dab in the middle of the middle east and just as soon as things turn our way AND an election shows up, we begin hearing about withdrawal.  We will be doing to Iraq just the same as we have done to Europe.  We will have substantial forces in place for a long, long, long time to come.  Oh, there will be the usual platitude of democracy, self sustaining government, etc. but the reality is we are not leaving Iraq in any meaningful manner.  Even O'Bama has figured it out.
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds. It will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
- Charles Mackay, Scottish journalist, circa 1841

"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it." - John Lennon

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2008, 05:30:56 PM »

The real reason is, or should have been, to plant fortresses in "Indian country."
I think that was accomplished in spades. 

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,859
Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2008, 05:45:03 PM »
Eye wash.  Convenient we hear of Iraqi demands for withdrawal date which coincides with a US election. 

Withdraw from Iraqi?  Won't happen anytime soon.  As we speak we are building the largest embassy on the planet.  Last I heard we have under construction mammoth bases out in the middle of nowhere.  Huge airbases and a number of terrestial bases for those who don't fly.  We wage a war right smack dab in the middle of the middle east and just as soon as things turn our way AND an election shows up, we begin hearing about withdrawal.  We will be doing to Iraq just the same as we have done to Europe.  We will have substantial forces in place for a long, long, long time to come.  Oh, there will be the usual platitude of democracy, self sustaining government, etc. but the reality is we are not leaving Iraq in any meaningful manner.  Even O'Bama has figured it out.

Does this explain why Iraqis are continuing to fight Americans then?

Maybe they have a different idea for Iraq's future-ie, no foreign troops.

The reality is that this plan, while I agree with you was the aim of the war, is going to fail because the Iraqis are refusing to cooperate.  The only realistically foreseeable result of maintaining bases there is an endless slow bleeding of lives and cash, not unlike what happened to Russia when they did the exact same thing to Afghanistan.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2008, 06:02:13 PM »
Eye wash.  Convenient we hear of Iraqi demands for withdrawal date which coincides with a US election. 

Withdraw from Iraqi?  Won't happen anytime soon.  As we speak we are building the largest embassy on the planet.  Last I heard we have under construction mammoth bases out in the middle of nowhere.  Huge airbases and a number of terrestial bases for those who don't fly.  We wage a war right smack dab in the middle of the middle east and just as soon as things turn our way AND an election shows up, we begin hearing about withdrawal.  We will be doing to Iraq just the same as we have done to Europe.  We will have substantial forces in place for a long, long, long time to come.  Oh, there will be the usual platitude of democracy, self sustaining government, etc. but the reality is we are not leaving Iraq in any meaningful manner.  Even O'Bama has figured it out.

Does this explain why Iraqis are continuing to fight Americans then?

Maybe they have a different idea for Iraq's future-ie, no foreign troops.

The reality is that this plan, while I agree with you was the aim of the war, is going to fail because the Iraqis are refusing to cooperate.  The only realistically foreseeable result of maintaining bases there is an endless slow bleeding of lives and cash, not unlike what happened to Russia when they did the exact same thing to Afghanistan.

If you think we are doing "the exact same thing" to Iraq you need to re-read the history of the USSR's invasion of Afghanistan or dial back a bit on the Islamo-Propagan-Do-Meter.

'Cause your statement is either "fact-deprived" or "lacking in truthiness," depending on your level of ignorance of the two events.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Dntsycnt

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 539
Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2008, 06:11:16 PM »
I think this is good.  If they stick to it, and we agree, and leave orderly at their behest, I think the war could legitimately be called a success, or at least not a failure.

If we stay when they want us to leave, we'll only be telling the Middle East that we aren't serious about democracy, but only want to push our agenda.  This is a huge part of what bothers them about us.  Show them, for once, that we respect their right to govern themselves.  Both sides come out looking good.

Assuming it doesn't immediately implode.  But even then, they asked us to leave.

41magsnub

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,579
  • Don't make me assume my ultimate form!
Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2008, 06:15:47 PM »
The thing that scares me a little is if BHO wins, which is very possible, any withdrawal would be done during his presidency and the Democrats would claim credit for ending the "neocon's" war.

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,859
Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2008, 06:16:50 PM »


If you think we are doing "the exact same thing" to Iraq you need to re-read the history of the USSR's invasion of Afghanistan or dial back a bit on the Islamo-Propagan-Do-Meter.

'Cause your statement is either "fact-deprived" or "lacking in truthiness," depending on your level of ignorance of the two events.

There's another meter to beware of: The McCarthyist Communo-satanic propaganda meter.

The USSR's invasion of Afghanistan was not the evil empire that the Taliban would have you believe it was-the Soviets did indeed build infrastructure there (though haphazard and poorly, like we are now doing in Iraq), they did in fact institute an educational system that pushed women's rights and secular values (we didn't even try this in Iraq), and they also weren't maddog killers-they bombed villages where militants lived (like we do) and conducted constant sweeps to round up and kill the opposition (like we do.)

The evidence of atrocities committed by the Russians is no different than the cherry picking that goes on in Iraq-referencing the rape and murder of a little girl and her family to "prove" that the occupation is inhumane, for example.  The reality was obviously not as cartoonish, for the USSR in Afghanistan or the US in Iraq.

Then there was also the fact that they claimed to be removing a dictator in order to restore democracy...plenty of parallels there, actually.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."