Author Topic: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal  (Read 9857 times)

taurusowner

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Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2008, 07:58:03 PM »
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We will be doing to Iraq just the same as we have done to Europe.  We will have substantial forces in place for a long, long, long time to come.  Oh, there will be the usual platitude of democracy, self sustaining government, etc. but the reality is we are not leaving Iraq in any meaningful manner.  Even O'Bama has figured it out.


So...are you saying our presence in Europe means means Germany or Austria aren't democratic?  Does Italy have a self-sustaining government?  Japan?  The fact is, we have bases in and near all of the countries, left over from when we were at war.  But that doesn't mean they aren't self-sustaining democracies in any sense. 

Keeping bases or an embassy in Iraq has nothing to do with whether or not they are self-sustaining or democratic.  No matter how the libs want to paint it.

Sergeant Bob

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Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2008, 05:28:02 AM »
If they want us out, we should just GTFO. It's their country, for better or worse.
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

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Manedwolf

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Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2008, 06:16:52 AM »
If they want us out, we should just GTFO. It's their country, for better or worse.

If we got out right now, Imajihad would just have more oil fields.

longeyes

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Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2008, 06:34:05 AM »
We should get out of the Middle East...when Saudi Arabia stops funding endowed chairs in America and subsidizing madrassas.

 
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roo_ster

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Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2008, 06:45:37 AM »
SS:

Your attempts at equivalence are motivated, but lacking in the whole reality department.

Just one of glaring difference (of many):
The USSR had a policy of moving folks out of Afghanistan and they were able to get 1/3 the population to skedaddle and move into Pakistan , Iran, & other points beyond the Afghanistan border.  This was in keeping with their doctrine / lessons learned: "The population is the sea in which the guerrilla swims." 

This was also in line with what the Soviets did to the break-away nations and troublesome minorities during the 1920s & 1930s: forced relocation and terror starvation.

Frankly, equating what we did in Afghanistan to the Soviets is disgusting.  It is either ignorance or a crippled morality doing the equating.



Anyone interested in how the Soviets operated at the small-unit level could do much worse that reading  The Bear Went Over the Mountain:  Soviet Combat Tactics in Afghanistan, first published in Russion by the Frunze Academic Press in 1991 and translated into English 1998 & published by Frank Cass Press (www.frankcass.com).
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roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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De Selby

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Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2008, 12:13:44 PM »
jfruser,

The USSR did not have a policy of moving folks out-but millions of people did flee the war.   I don't see how that is any different from Iraq either; Iraqis are now one of (if not the) largest refugee populations on the planet, having run away from the disasters in their home country.

If you would try to point out the factual differences between the two occupations, I think your claims of obvious crippled morality or ignorance would be a lot harder to sustain.  The reality of the situation is that the Soviets killed their puppet in Kabul for being too trigger happy, and it wasn't until a good half way through the war that they really tried to exterminate the militants and ended up doling out mass casualties. 

I'll track down that book, and I'd also recommend "Fighting Masood's war" by Abdullah Shariat-gives a decent if grossly biased view of the afghani politics at play.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

roo_ster

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Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2008, 01:21:03 PM »
Five minutes of googling produced the following documented snippets, available to anybody with curiosity to know the facts.

Again, it would take a moral cripple or ignorance to equate the USSR's conduct in Afghanistan and our in Iraq.



All I highlighted below was Soviet policy.

Compare that to US policy, where we not only did not bomb indiscriminately, we removed the HE from many of our smart bombs and replaced it with concrete to reduce the collateral damage when our bombs hit the target.

Instead of destroying irrigation systems, we rebuilt them and re-flooded the marshes Saddam had drained.

When Iraqi civilians are killed, we hold investigations for violating our policy and laws, if the evidence points that way.

Instead of rubbling cities, we go after insurgents the hard way, fighting house-by-house with great care to avoid killing noncombatants.  Fallujah being a prime example.

WRT refugees, the Soviet policy of forcing them out resulted in 33% of the population being displaced.  Estimates are that 7% of Iraqis have been displaced, the greatest number internally to avoid not American violence, but sectarian violence by other Iraqis.

The USA also does not sling out small mines willy-nilly, in an attempt to displace the locals.

I could go on, but it is obvious to a rational observer that the USSR and USA conduct of the different operations was as different as can be.




The Soviet Union had a good deal of experience with guerrilla warfare.  During the 1920s and 1930s, they conducted a successful counterinsurgency in Central Asia against the Basmachi. During World War II, the Soviet Union fielded and directed the largest partisan force ever deployed in wartime.  Following World War II, the Soviets conducted another successful counterinsurgency in the Ukraine.  Yet, when the Soviets entered Afghanistan, they were unprepared to conduct a counterinsurgency in this theater.  Their divisions were designed for conventional war against NATO or China, so they had all their tanks, chemical defense and air defense units with them.  The Soviet intention was to hold the operational key terrain and ward off the hostile neighboring states of Pakistan and Iran.  The Armed Forces of the DRA were supposed to fight the counterinsurgency.  However, as the countryside rose in revolt, it became obvious that the DRA could not handle the counterinsurgency alone and that the Soviets would have to participate--as the main partner.

The initial Mujahideen resistance to the Soviets was based on a popular uprising.  Hundreds of small bands took to the field.  The guerrillas were local and their leaders were local--village chiefs, tribal leaders, prominent family elders.  The revolt was secular and the leadership was secular.  The local mullahs and imams might accompany the guerrillas, but seldom in a leadership role.  Since the guerrillas were local, the support base was built in.  Food, water, shelter and medical aid were readily available and the neighbors provided intelligence on Soviet and DRA movements.  The guerrillas weapons were what they had on hand--primarily WWI-era British Lee-Enfield.303 bolt-action rifles and older British Martini-Henry single-shot breech-loading rifles from the 1880s.  Lucky units seized DRA district headquarters, looting their arms rooms and liberating AK-47 Kalashnikov assault rifles and some machine guns.

Belatedly the Soviets addressed the insurgency.  Despite their past experience, they had forgotten their history.  They read Mao Tse Tungs aphorism the guerrilla is the fish that swims in the ocean of the people.  The Soviets decided that the way to isolate the fish was to drain the ocean.  The Soviet Air Force, which had readily ripped apart the Afghan lashgars, was useless against a guerrilla that it could not target.  However, the air force could readily target irrigation systems, orchards, cropland, farms, villages and livestock.  The air force went after the Mujahideen support structure.

At this time, Afghanistan was a country of approximately 17 million people.  Most were rural.  Soviet bombing drove 5.5 million people out of the country and into refugee camps in bordering Pakistan and Iran.  Another 2.2 million became internal refugees crowding into the shantytowns and the suburbs of Afghanistans cities to escape the Soviet Air Force.  The guerrilla now had to carry his weapon, ammunition, food and water with him.  If he was hurt, his closest medical support might be in Pakistan or Iran.  The rural social system was turned upside down and the guerrillas support base was being closed down.

The Soviets soon learned that they did not want to be within 300 meters of the Mujahideen.  The 300-meter mark represents the maximum effective range of the Kalashnikov assault rifle, the RPG-7 anti-tank grenade launcher against a moving target and is well within the danger close area of supporting artillery and air power.  The Mujahideen preferred the flat trajectory fight where the bulk of Soviet combat power was negated.  Where possible, the Soviets bulldozed orchards, villages and other cover and concealment some 300 meters back from both sides of the road to create stand-off and aid in counter-ambush.


The war was a political as well as military operation. While Soviet troops supported and then took on themselves a counterinsurgency effort in the countryside, the Soviet secret police, known as the KGB, and other civilian institutions set about building an Afghan Communist state in Kābul and other cities. The system was enforced by the Afghan State Information Services (Afghanistans secret police), known as KhAD. Led by Muhammad Najibullah, who replaced Babrak Karmal as party leader in 1985 and as president in 1986, KhAD had a larger budget than even the military. It operated under the guidance of KGB advisers.

The Soviet leadership did not intend to fight in Afghanistan for a prolonged period. It planned on an operation similar to that in Czechoslovakia in 1968, leading to a quick stabilization. Initially it secured the main towns and supply routes while leaving counterinsurgency to Afghan troops. It also engaged in massive and indiscriminate aerial bombardments of areas along infiltration routes near the Pakistani and Iranian borders, as well as in a few other resistance strongholds, such as the Panjsher Valley. These bombardments resulted in many civilian casualties. They forced about a third of the populationan estimated 5 million Afghansto flee the country. The 3 million Afghans in Pakistan and the 2 million in Iran became the worlds largest refugee population in the 1980s.

When this strategy proved a failure, the Soviets sent in Special Forces, known as spetsnaz, starting in 1984. The spetsnaz undertook aggressive operations, mainly against the same areas that had been targeted in the bombing campaign. These operations began with the surrounding of an area by armored vehicles, usually at night. The Soviets then bombarded the area from the air or with artillery. Spetsnaz, often transported by helicopters, then invaded the villages, often fighting house to house and killing large numbers of civilians. The result was the emptying and destruction of villages. The destruction included the placement of antipersonnel mines in houses, agricultural land, and irrigation canals, in order to prevent the return of the population.

The use of antipersonnel mines was widespread. So-called butterfly mines distributed from helicopters had wings that enabled them to flutter to the ground. Camouflaged in the color of dust or vegetation, they were laid along infiltration routes that also served as herding paths and routes for refugees. These mines, which maim rather than kill, were largely responsible for the large numbers of handicapped persons in Afghanistan.


Irrigation systems, crucial to agriculture in Afghanistan's arid climate, were destroyed by aerial bombing and strafing by Soviet or Afghan communist forces. In the worst year of the war, 1985, well over half of all the farmers who remained in Afghanistan had their fields bombed, and over one quarter had their irrigation systems destroyed and their livestock shot by Soviet or Afghan Communist troops, according to a survey conducted by Swedish relief experts [60]

The population of Afghanistan's second largest city, Kandahar, was reduced from 200,000 before the war to no more than 25,000 inhabitants, following a months-long campaign of carpet bombing and bulldozing by the Soviets and Afghan communist soldiers in 1987.[61] Land mines had killed 25,000 Afghans during the war and another 10-15 million land mines, most planted by Soviet and Afghan government forces, were left scattered throughout the countryside to kill and maim.[62]

A great deal of damage was done to the civilian children population by land mines. A 2005 report estimated 3-4% of the Afghan population were disabled due to Soviet and Afghan communist land mines. In the city of Quetta, a survey of refugee women and children taken shortly after the Soviet withdrawal found over 80% of the children refugees unregistered and child mortality at 31%. Of children who survived, 67% were severely malnourished, with malnutrition increasing with age.[63]
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roo_ster

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De Selby

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Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2008, 03:13:40 PM »
jfruser,

It is not a moral cripple you need to see the comparisons-it's an ideological blindness to the facts that you need in order to not see them.  Your problem is that you keep posting statistics from Afghanistan without taking a look at the corresponding statistics in the Iraq war.  Of course if you ignore damage done to Iraq and only look at damage Russia did, then you will conclude there's no equivalence.

If you look at the damage done to Iraq side by side with the damage done to Afghanistan, however, the comparisons become quite obvious.  To look at both facts side by side, however, you need to be free enough from ideological convictions to admit that facts other than those which confirm your ideology are relevant.

Now let's see the comparisons to Iraq:

Quote
The Soviets decided that the way to isolate the fish was to drain the ocean.  The Soviet Air Force, which had readily ripped apart the Afghan lashgars, was useless against a guerrilla that it could not target.  However, the air force could readily target irrigation systems, orchards, cropland, farms, villages and livestock.  The air force went after the Mujahideen support structure.

Here's the American equivalent in Iraq:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1123/p01s02-woiq.html
Quote
It was Fallujah where the US military decided to set a precedent in Iraq, hoping that a full-scale offensive [ss's comment: ie, destroying the city]- which heavily damaged the city - followed by a carefully controlled return of the 300,000 residents, would undermine the insurgency

The Russian attack on Infrastructure:

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The rural social system was turned upside down and the guerrillas support base was being closed down.

And the American attack on Iraq's infrastructure:

http://www.irffi.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/IRFFI/0,,contentMDK:20241710~hlPK:1285902~menuPK:497916~pagePK:64168627~piPK:64167475~theSitePK:491458,00.html
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Prior to the 1990s, Iraqs infrastructure was among the best in the Middle East.
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Today most Iraqis have limited access to essential basic services, including electricity, water supply, sanitation, and refuse collection.

Serious environmental and health risks associated with contaminated water supplies, inappropriate handling of solid waste, and disposal of sewage threaten to further burden the already stressed health system. The concentration of economic and social activities in the main urban centers of Iraq has also led to a proliferation of under-serviced neighborhoods in major Iraqi cities. Iraqi officials are looking for means to quickly restore basic infrastructure services and to improve living conditions. The lack of basic infrastructure services, particularly electricity, has contributed to the general lack of security in various parts of the country.


Notice the parallel? Destroying the infrastructure so that most activity ends up concentrated in the cities...hmm, familiiar.

Refugees-plenty of those in Iraq:

http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/home/opendoc.pdf?tbl=SUBSITES&id=461f7cb92

Four million displaced Iraqis....right up there with the Afghan tragedy.


Total deaths of Iraqis?

http://www.opinion.co.uk/Newsroom_details.aspx?NewsId=78
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September 2007  More than 1,000,000 Iraqis murdered
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Scout26

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Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2008, 05:11:04 PM »
SS,

Comparing us in Iraq to the Soviets in Afghanistan.  You're quite a piece of work.  rolleyes

Quote
Quote
The Soviets decided that the way to isolate the fish was to drain the ocean.  The Soviet Air Force, which had readily ripped apart the Afghan lashgars, was useless against a guerrilla that it could not target.  However, the air force could readily target irrigation systems, orchards, cropland, farms, villages and livestock.  The air force went after the Mujahideen support structure.

Here's the American equivalent in Iraq:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1123/p01s02-woiq.html
Quote
It was Fallujah where the US military decided to set a precedent in Iraq, hoping that a full-scale offensive [ss's comment: ie, destroying the city]- which heavily damaged the city - followed by a carefully controlled return of the 300,000 residents, would undermine the insurgency

I don't think we destroyed croplands, farms, livestock and orchards.  In fact we went house by house  to prevent unnecessary destruction.  Oh, and when the battle was over, we returned the residents and paid for and help repair any damage done.   But I guess the difference is lost on you.

Quote
And the American attack on Iraq's infrastructure:

http://www.irffi.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/IRFFI/0,,contentMDK:20241710~hlPK:1285902~menuPK:497916~pagePK:64168627~piPK:64167475~theSitePK:491458,00.html
Quote
Prior to the 1990s, Iraqs infrastructure was among the best in the Middle East.

Quote
Today most Iraqis have limited access to essential basic services, including electricity, water supply, sanitation, and refuse collection.

Serious environmental and health risks associated with contaminated water supplies, inappropriate handling of solid waste, and disposal of sewage threaten to further burden the already stressed health system. The concentration of economic and social activities in the main urban centers of Iraq has also led to a proliferation of under-serviced neighborhoods in major Iraqi cities. Iraqi officials are looking for means to quickly restore basic infrastructure services and to improve living conditions. The lack of basic infrastructure services, particularly electricity, has contributed to the general lack of security in various parts of the country.

Notice the parallel? Destroying the infrastructure so that most activity ends up concentrated in the cities...hmm, familiiar.

And who's done most (and continues to do) damage the infrastructure ??    We must be really stupid, because  everyone that I've talked to that's beeen over there has always remarked about how much time, effort and money we put into getting the infrastructure up and working.  Then according to you we just go and blow it up again.   It's the terrorists that are destroying things. We're trying to get it to work.

And then your final slap in the face.  You quote a POLL on the number of deaths, implying that all were caused by US forces. 

Have you no shame ??  No sense of decency ??   angry angry angry

It's a shame dueling is illegal, because I would challange you to one.  angry angry angry
 
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De Selby

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Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2008, 05:37:35 PM »
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I don't think we destroyed croplands, farms, livestock and orchards.  In fact we went house by house  to prevent unnecessary destruction.  Oh, and when the battle was over, we returned the residents and paid for and help repair any damage done.   But I guess the difference is lost on you.

Fallujah was a house-to-house operation?  You mean house to house to destroy, along with bombing every car in the city in advance....and still forbidding any cars to operate there at all.

Anyone who wants can look at photos of Iraq's major cities-the damage is not minor or localized.

Quote
And who's done most (and continues to do) damage the infrastructure ??    We must be really stupid, because  everyone that I've talked to that's beeen over there has always remarked about how much time, effort and money we put into getting the infrastructure up and working.  Then according to you we just go and blow it up again.   It's the terrorists that are destroying things. We're trying to get it to work.

Again, the point I'm making is not that the US isn't trying to rebuild Iraq's infrastructure-it's that Russia also tried to build Afghani infrastructure. 

You are creating a straw man here-I'm not and never have claimed that all US troops are doing is destroying Iraq.  It is untrue to say that Russia was doing that to Afghanistan though.  Russia tried to build the place up, and a lot of their work was sabotaged or destroyed in fighting the militants.  It was, again, similar to the situation in Iraq.

Not because the Army in Iraq is evil, which is silly, but because the Russian army was not a cartoon badguy in Afghanistan. 

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And then your final slap in the face.  You quote a POLL on the number of deaths, implying that all were caused by US forces. 

Yeah, how is that different from the numbers we're using for Afghanistan?  The pre-Taliban certainly killed a large number of the people who died, and caused refugees, and I see no indication in the refugee or death numbers that they included only deaths directly caused by the USSR.

Again, the same as the numbers we're tossing around for Iraq.

Before you challenge me to a duel, you should try to give an honest read to my post.  Because the duel you're imaging right now is between you and a stuffed-with-straw scarecrow.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

roo_ster

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Re: Iraq official: Need dates for U.S. withdrawal
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2008, 05:47:12 AM »
scout26:

I would hazard a guess as to "No" and "No," given that ignorance is not now an available (charitable) assumption.
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roo_ster

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