Author Topic: Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...  (Read 7358 times)

Manedwolf

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Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...
« on: August 03, 2008, 11:13:40 AM »
Something I've just been curious about. Whenever they show insurgents fighting in Iraq, it's usually a bunch of people with AKs dancing around in the street, right out in the open, firing at targets of opportunity. They're not bothering with any kind of cover at all, and not even using the sights when firing.

Is that usually something that occurs, or just all the news can manage to get video of? And if it is in fact something those sorts do, are they a distraction while someone else is in a dark window with a Dragunov/PSL, or are they really just that stupid? Huh?

MicroBalrog

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Re: Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2008, 11:15:07 AM »
A lot of Soviet-era AK training concentrated on using the 'Auto' setting to create a large volume of fire rather than aimed shots. THis might be why.

And yes, Palestinians do this too.

Actual Iraq veterans will surely provide more insight.
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Bigjake

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Re: Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2008, 11:39:54 AM »
So if this is the SOP for the badguys, you figure the media just doesn't bother to report it when we hand them an asswhupping?

MicroBalrog

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Re: Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2008, 11:50:09 AM »
So if this is the SOP for the badguys, you figure the media just doesn't bother to report it when we hand them an asswhupping?

Go look at US v. insurgent casualties.

For the insurgents, every day is asswhupping day.
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RevDisk

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Re: Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2008, 02:11:16 PM »
Something I've just been curious about. Whenever they show insurgents fighting in Iraq, it's usually a bunch of people with AKs dancing around in the street, right out in the open, firing at targets of opportunity. They're not bothering with any kind of cover at all, and not even using the sights when firing.

Is that usually something that occurs, or just all the news can manage to get video of? And if it is in fact something those sorts do, are they a distraction while someone else is in a dark window with a Dragunov/PSL, or are they really just that stupid? Huh?

Different insurents use different tactics.  The Chechians pioneered the three man RPG squad.  Two guys with RPG-29's, one with an AK strictly for defense.   Hezbollah paramilitary groups during the Second Lebanon War used a similiar tactic, but buried or bunkered said squad until the initial line of tanks or vehicles passed them. 

There are insurgent snipers in Iraq.  The most famous one was "Juba", who worked in Baghdad.  No one knew if it was one guy or a bunch.  Most of the folks I knew thought it was one guy due to the fact that his tactics were consistent, discplined and he always fired just one shot.  Plus the fact that he's entirely unknown.  Two people can keep a secret.  If one of them is dead.

There's also the IED tactics.  IED's, EFP's, et al.  I notice that few if any IED's incorporate Misznay-Schardin effect.  Thought that was a bit odd. 
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AJ Dual

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Re: Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2008, 03:58:26 AM »
Is that usually something that occurs, or just all the news can manage to get video of?

I think you just answered your own question.

If the particular insurgent group is doing a better job than this, things are too hot to stand up and get video. (i.e. Using modern tactics, riflemen as screen/probe/scout/defense for crew-served or area-effect weaponry.)  And if they are using cover/concealment properly all the media would see is muzzle flashes, or puffs of smoke coming from windows, and corners of structures, which does not make for good video.

Also, a lot of the video we're treated to is weapons camera footage/FLIR from aircraft. A lot of the insurgents don't appreciate on a gut level our ability to see in the dark, or at a distance. And while it looks as though they're operating openly, from a horizontal standpoint, they may be well screened from our ground forces.
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HankB

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Re: Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2008, 04:21:52 AM »
Something I've just been curious about. Whenever they show insurgents fighting in Iraq, it's usually a bunch of people with AKs dancing around in the street, right out in the open, firing at targets of opportunity. They're not bothering with any kind of cover at all, and not even using the sights when firing.
They could be staging a "fight" for the film crews . . .
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De Selby

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Re: Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2008, 04:38:39 AM »
Judging by some of the shots I see in the news, the cameramen are more suicidal than some of the terrorists.  I can't imagine how perilous it must have been to stand out in the street and take some of that video.
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RevDisk

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Re: Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2008, 08:08:47 AM »
Judging by some of the shots I see in the news, the cameramen are more suicidal than some of the terrorists.  I can't imagine how perilous it must have been to stand out in the street and take some of that video.

Believe it or not, it's usually safer to be in the middle of the street than against a long wall or building.
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seeker_two

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Re: Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2008, 01:14:38 PM »

There's also the IED tactics.  IED's, EFP's, et al.  I notice that few if any IED's incorporate Misznay-Schardin effect.  Thought that was a bit odd. 

Misznay-Schardin effect involves science.....science is contrary to the will of Allah....as are puppies and kittens....
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De Selby

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Re: Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2008, 03:13:55 PM »

There's also the IED tactics.  IED's, EFP's, et al.  I notice that few if any IED's incorporate Misznay-Schardin effect.  Thought that was a bit odd. 

Misznay-Schardin effect involves science.....science is contrary to the will of Allah....as are puppies and kittens....

Most of the educated Al Qaeda recruits are engineers and doctors.  Very pro-science, indeed. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

MicroBalrog

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Re: Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2008, 03:18:07 PM »

There's also the IED tactics.  IED's, EFP's, et al.  I notice that few if any IED's incorporate Misznay-Schardin effect.  Thought that was a bit odd. 

Misznay-Schardin effect involves science.....science is contrary to the will of Allah....as are puppies and kittens....

Glaucoma surgery also involves science. Need I remind you who invented it?
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Balog

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Re: Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2008, 03:20:57 PM »
Jihadists in a third world country invented glaucoma surgery?
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2008, 03:53:21 PM »
Jihadists in a third world country invented glaucoma surgery?

Muslims, actually.

Islamic doctrine per se is in no way opposed to scientic advance (though it is opposed to dogs).
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Balog

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Re: Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2008, 04:02:44 PM »
"Modern Islam" in theory vs in practice. At one point I undertand Islamic society was quite advanced for the day. But that is not a reflection of the state of things in the world we actually live in.
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RevDisk

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Re: Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2008, 05:07:13 PM »

There's also the IED tactics.  IED's, EFP's, et al.  I notice that few if any IED's incorporate Misznay-Schardin effect.  Thought that was a bit odd. 

Misznay-Schardin effect involves science.....science is contrary to the will of Allah....as are puppies and kittens....

It is unwise to underestimate and generalize an broad group.  There are roughly one billion followers of Islam.  Some of the most primative countries are Islamic.  Some of the most advanced nations are Islamic.  Some are moderate, some are fanatical.  Some are allies, some are enemies.

Mind you, an Islamic state built multiple nuclear weapons.  They are currently our allies.  One does not independently build nuclear weapons without a lot of smart people, good infrastructure and a wide logistic pipeline.

"Modern Islam" in theory vs in practice. At one point I undertand Islamic society was quite advanced for the day. But that is not a reflection of the state of things in the world we actually live in.

I recommend visiting Kuwait, UAE, Bahrain, Qatar, Egypt, and many others.  Then again, you also have Indonesia, Afghanistan, etc.
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seeker_two

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Re: Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2008, 01:00:29 AM »
Jihadists in a third world country invented glaucoma surgery?

Muslims, actually.

Islamic doctrine per se is in no way opposed to scientic advance (though it is opposed to dogs).


I thought we were talking about wacky Islamic extremists.....the kind that dance in the middle of the street in a free-fire zone with AK-47's and demand women swathed in burkas head to toe and make silly religious statements about pets....not all Muslims in general.... rolleyes
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

MechAg94

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Re: Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2008, 01:50:44 AM »
I think it all boils down to the fact that even highly educated people can be extremists on some issues or be fanatical about something.  Fanatics are not necessarily stupid. 
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MechAg94

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Re: Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2008, 01:55:36 AM »
Many Islamic countries have been rather stagnant as far as technology goes, but is that the religion or the type of governments in those areas?  I think many of those countries either had fairly repressive governments or very ingrained tribalism. 

....Not to mention that many of those areas have been advanced before in ancient times and conquerors slaughtered everyone a few times over.  I wonder what Europe would look like if the Mongols had conquered it. 
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seeker_two

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Re: Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2008, 08:13:22 AM »

There's also the IED tactics.  IED's, EFP's, et al.  I notice that few if any IED's incorporate Misznay-Schardin effect.  Thought that was a bit odd. 

Misznay-Schardin effect involves science.....science is contrary to the will of Allah....as are puppies and kittens....

Most of the educated Al Qaeda recruits are engineers and doctors.  Very pro-science, indeed. 

I stand corrected..... http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,397584,00.html

Quote
Pakistani Woman Extradited to New York for Alleged Attack on U.S. Soldiers
Tuesday , August 05, 2008



ADVERTISEMENTNEW YORK 

An MIT-educated Pakistani woman once identified as a possible Al Qaeda associate has been brought to New York to face charges she tried to kill U.S. agents and military officers during an interrogation in Afghanistan, federal prosecutors said.

Aafia Siddiqui, who was shot and wounded last month during the confrontation, was expected to be arraigned Tuesday in federal court in Manhattan on charges of attempted murder and assault, U.S. Attorney Michael Garcia said in a statement. A lawyer for her family said the allegations are false.

Siddiqui, 36, was stopped by police on July 17 outside a government building in central Afghanistan's Ghazni province, according to a criminal complaint. Police searched her handbag and discovered documents containing recipes for explosives and chemical weapons and describing "various landmarks in the United States, including New York City," according to the complaint, which did not identify the landmarks.

Police also found maps of Ghazni on her, including the provincial governor's compounds and the mosques he prayed in, said governor spokesman Sayed Ismail Jahangir.

Siddiqui also was carrying "chemical substances in gel and liquid form that were sealed in bottles and glass jars," the complaint said. It did not elaborate. Jahangir said she was carrying "liquid poison."

The next day, as a team of FBI agents and U.S. military officers prepared to question her, Siddiqui grabbed a rifle, pointed it at an Army captain and yelled that she wanted blood, prosecutors said. An interpreter pushed the rifle aside as she fired two shots, which missed, they said. One of two shots fired by a soldier in response hit her in the torso.

Even after being hit, Siddiqui struggled and shouted in English "that she wanted to kill Americans" before the officers subdued her, the complaint said.

Authorities believe she entered the country from Pakistan, crossing the border at Chaman border post into the southern Kandahar province, he said. She spent two days in Kabul before going to Ghazni.

The family attorney, Elaine Whitfield Sharp, called the charges "a tall story."

Sharp disputed the U.S. government's earlier claims that Siddiqui had gone underground for several years before her capture. The family suspects that after she vanished with her three children while in Pakistan in 2003, she was secretly held and possibly tortured before U.S. authorities finally brought charges to justify her detention.

"I believe she's become a terrible embarrassment to them, but she's not a terrorist," Sharp said. "When the truth comes out, people will see she did nothing wrong."

At the time of the incident, Afghan officials gave conflicting accounts of what transpired between Siddiqui and the U.S. interrogators.

Gen. Khan Mohammad Mujahid, police chief in central Ghazni province, initially said police argued with the Americans over giving up custody of Siddiqui. But he later said there was no argument and that the woman lunged at one of the U.S. soldiers, drawing the gunshot.

U.S. military officials declined comment at the time.

On Tuesday, an Afghan official in Ghazni said the woman took the weapon while U.S. officials were arguing with Afghan security official over the custody rights. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak about the issue.

At a 2004 news conference, then-Attorney General John Ashcroft and FBI Director Robert Mueller III identified Siddiqui as one of seven people the FBI wanted to question about their suspected ties to Al Qaeda.

U.S. authorities said at the time that Siddiqui had received a biology degree from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and wrote a doctoral thesis on neurological sciences at Brandeis University, outside Boston, in 2001 before returning to Pakistan shortly after Sept. 11.

Though they never alleged she was a full-fledged member of Al Qaeda, authorities said they believed Siddiqui could be a "fixer," someone with knowledge of the United States who supported other operatives trying to slip into the country and plot attacks.

Siddiqui is charged with one count each of attempted murder and assault. If convicted, she faces up to 20 years in prison on each charge.


Better killing through science, eh?.....  rolleyes
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De Selby

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Re: Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2008, 01:50:24 PM »
The case you cited is a weird one-I think the family's story that she was secretly detained, and now charges are being brought to justify the detention may have some truth to it.  There are a lot of holes in the story from any angle at this point.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

280plus

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Re: Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2008, 01:53:56 PM »
I'll never forget the story about the bunch of guys with Doctorates and double Doctorates in things like Humanities and Psychology who sat around a table together and planned the systematic slaughter of ~ 11 million Jews.  Not one of them stops to say, "Does anyone think maybe this is wrong?" The thought has always boggled my mind.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2008, 01:55:51 PM »
Actually, 280, it appears a lot of Wansee conference people were blackmailed or threatened into cooperating.

Either way - evil thugs, the lot of them.
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De Selby

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Re: Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2008, 01:59:53 PM »
I'll never forget the story about the bunch of guys with Doctorates and double Doctorates in things like Humanities and Psychology who sat around a table together and planned the systematic slaughter of ~ 11 million Jews.  Not one of them stops to say, "Does anyone think maybe this is wrong?" The thought has always boggled my mind.

Many of them had that thought, and for whatever reason did not/could not act on it.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

280plus

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Re: Question about depicted Iraqi insurgent fighting...
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2008, 02:13:27 PM »
I'd believe something like 50/50 on that. Half were delighted with the idea and half went along because it was good for their health. The numbers are conjecture on my part of course.

"Defying Hitler" Sebastian Haffner, very good read on how there were many inside Germany that disagreed with the whole thing but just looked the other way and went along for the ride rather than rock the boat. Another one I should reread. It was good...

Meanwhile, I'm just truly amazed that highly educated people like that can also be so extreme in ideology as to condone mass murder. Talk about a paradox.
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