Author Topic: Unreal...  (Read 6832 times)

Bigjake

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Unreal...
« on: August 17, 2008, 05:00:14 PM »
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,405164,00.html

FOXNews.com
Ex-Marine Questions Prosecution in Civilian Court

Sunday , August 17, 2008

AP
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IRVINE, Calif. 
A former Marine sergeant facing the first federal civilian prosecution of a military member accused of a war crime says there is much more at stake than his claim of innocence on charges that he killed unarmed detainees in Fallujah, Iraq.

In the view of Jose Luis Nazario Jr., U.S. troops may begin to question whether they will be prosecuted by civilians for doing what their military superiors taught them to do in battle.

Nazario is the first military service member who has completed his duty to be brought to trial under a law that allows the government to prosecute defense contractors, military dependents and those no longer in the military who commit crimes outside the United States.

"They train us, and they expect us to rely back on that training. Then when we use that training, they prosecute us for it?" Nazario said during an interview Saturday with The Associated Press.

"I didn't do anything wrong. I don't think I should be the first tried like this," said Nazario, whose trial begins Tuesday in Riverside, east of Los Angeles.

If Nazario, 28, is convicted of voluntary manslaughter, some predict damaging consequences on the battlefield.

"This boils down to one thing in my mind: Are we going to allow civilian juries to Monday-morning-quarterback military decisions?" said Nazario's attorney, Kevin McDermott.

Others say the law closes a loophole that allowed former military service members to slip beyond the reach of prosecution. Once they complete their terms, troops cannot be prosecuted in military court.

Scott Silliman, a law professor and executive director of the Center on Law, Ethics and National Security at Duke University, says it has little to do with questioning military decisions and everything to do with whether a service member committed a crime.

"From a legal point of view, there is no difference in law between war and peace," he said.

The Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act law was written in 2000 and amended in 2004 primarily to prosecute civilian contractors who commit crimes while working for the U.S. overseas. One of the authors contends prosecuting former military personnel was "not the motivation."

"I don't fault the Department of Justice for using what legal authority they have if a clear criminal act has been committed. But I do think that it would be preferable for crimes committed on active duty be prosecuted by court martial rather than in civilian courts," said Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Ala.

"I think maybe what it says is we need to rethink the question of military personnel who are subject to prosecution."

Telephone messages for a spokesman in the U.S. attorney's office in Los Angeles seeking comment were not returned.

Nazario, of Riverside, is charged with one count of voluntary manslaughter on suspicion of killing or causing others to kill four unarmed detainees in November 2004 in Fallujah, during some of the fiercest fighting of the war. He also faces one count of assault with a deadly weapon and one count of discharging a firearm during a crime of violence.

The case came to light in 2006, when Nazario's former squadmate, Sgt. Ryan Weemer, volunteered details to a U.S. Secret Service job interviewer during a lie-detector screening that included a question about the most serious crime he ever committed. Weemer was ordered this month to stand trial in military court on charges of unpremeditated murder and dereliction of duty in the killing of an unarmed detainee in Fallujah. He has pleaded not guilty.

According to a Naval Criminal Investigative Service criminal complaint, several Marines allege Nazario shot two Iraqi men who had been detained while his squad searched a house. The complaint claims four Iraqi men were killed during the action.

The complaint states the squad had been taking fire from the house. After the troops entered the building and captured the insurgents, Nazario placed a call on his radio.

"Nazario said that he was asked, 'Are they dead yet?"' the complaint states. When Nazario responded that that the captives were still alive, he was allegedly told by the Marine on the radio to "make it happen."

Though Nazario and his attorneys declined to discuss the facts of the case with the AP, the former Marine has always maintained his innocence.

Fallujah was the scene of two Marine battles in 2004, the first of which was launched after insurgents killed four U.S. contractors in the city. That battle was aborted in April 2004 and the Marines launched Operation Phantom Fury in November of that year.

Nazario said he was on his first deployment when his squad entered Fallujah, which he described as a "high combat zone" with insurgents taking shots at troops at every turn  with everything from AK-47s to rocket-propelled grenades.

Thirty-three in his battalion were killed in the battle. The first, he said, was a man in his squad. Nazario later received the Navy-Marine Corps Commendation Medal with a "V" for valor for combat and leadership in Fallujah.

Though Nazario was not physically injured, he was later found to have post-traumatic stress disorder.

After leaving the military, Nazario worked as an officer with the Riverside Police Department and was close to completing his one-year probation. He said he knew nothing of the investigation until he was arrested Aug. 7, 2007, after being called into the watch commander's office to sign a performance review.

He said he was leaning forward to sign when he was grabbed from behind by his fellow officers, told he had been charged with a war crime and was turned over to Navy investigators waiting in a nearby room. Because he had not completed probation, the police department fired him.

Since then, he said, has been unable to find work.

"You're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty," he said. "I've put in applications everywhere for everything. But nobody wants to hire you if you have been indicted."

Without any income, Nazario said, he has been forced to move in with his parents in New York. He and his wife resorted to selling some of their household goods, such as electronics equipment, to a pawn shop.

His wife, once a stay-at-home mother to their 2-year-old son, has gone to work as a customer service receptionist, he said. She will be unable to attend his trial.

"She has to work. We need the money," he said, his eyes reddening as he blinked away tears.

Nazario said he has no regrets about being a Marine, only regrets about what has happened since.

"My faith in the system is shaken. There's no doubt about that," he said.

One of Nazario's defense attorneys, Doug Applegate, said he believes that ultimately the former Marine will be acquitted because of lack of evidence.

"There are no bodies, no forensic evidence, no crime scene and no identities," he said.

It is unclear what, if anything, Marines being subpoenaed to testify will say about the events in the house in Fallujah.

Another Marine, Sgt. Jermaine Nelson, 26, of New York is slated to be court-martialed in December on charges of unpremeditated murder and dereliction of duty for his role in the deaths.

Although he has not entered a plea in military court, Nelson's attorney has said his client is innocent.

Nelson and Weemer were jailed in June for contempt of court for refusing to testify against Nazario before a federal grand jury believed to be investigating the case. Both were released July 3 and returned to Camp Pendleton.










I don't know how to start with this  angry  The folks that instigated this BS ought to be drawn and quartered.

Antibubba

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Re: Unreal...
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2008, 07:48:07 PM »
If the alleged crime occurred in Fallujah, isn't it out of the jurisdiction of the US Attorney's office?
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RevDisk

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Re: Unreal...
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2008, 07:59:17 PM »
If the alleged crime occurred in Fallujah, isn't it out of the jurisdiction of the US Attorney's office?

No.  Members of the military are considered "agents of the US government" and thus they can be prosecuted by the US for activities overseas.  This is a good thing as you'd generally prefer to be tried here than where ever you allegedly committed a crime.  The alternative would be handing him over the Iraqis for trial.  That would be a bad thing.


While the law is a little FUBAR, the general principle is not.  If you're in the military, you get tried by a military court.  If you seperate from the military, you get tried in a civilian court.  Otherwise, you could off your spouse immediately before getting discharged and theoretically get away with it if it wasn't noticed before you got out.
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just Warren

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Re: Unreal...
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2008, 09:50:54 PM »
Isn't there "combat immunity" anymore?


What worries me about this is that there are a lot of involuntary manslaughter or negligent homicide type charges that could be brought against a whole lot of folk. There are a lot of weasel-like prosecutors out there that would not hesitate to bring such a case if they thought it might advance their career.

So the bomber crew or missile man that missed the target and hit a neighborhood or an artillerist that put a short round into a cafe or the infantryman who overshot a target and killed someone two blocks over could all be brought up on charges.

I can easily imagine some scuzz of a prosecutor reading through someone's memoirs of their Iraq duty and marking the incidents that might be chargeable.
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De Selby

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Re: Unreal...
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2008, 09:59:35 PM »
Isn't there "combat immunity" anymore?


What worries me about this is that there are a lot of involuntary manslaughter or negligent homicide type charges that could be brought against a whole lot of folk. There are a lot of weasel-like prosecutors out there that would not hesitate to bring such a case if they thought it might advance their career.

So the bomber crew or missile man that missed the target and hit a neighborhood or an artillerist that put a short round into a cafe or the infantryman who overshot a target and killed someone two blocks over could all be brought up on charges.

I can easily imagine some scuzz of a prosecutor reading through someone's memoirs of their Iraq duty and marking the incidents that might be chargeable.

There is and always has been combat immunity-it's just limited.

Sneaking up on someone and shooting him in the back while he sits in his office will fit any murder statute in the U.S.-but if you're in battle and that person is an active member of the other side's combat forces, you are immune from any prosecution.

It looks like the reason this guy is up on charges is for intentionally shooting a captive-which is a situation not covered by the immunity you get in combat.

Accidental damages, shooting combatants who are participating in the war-no prosecution.

Shooting a guy who was already captured and posed no threat because his immediate future was in a prison camp?  Murder prosecution.

It's a very old fashioned way of doing things and a pretty good one, if you ask me.
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RevDisk

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Re: Unreal...
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2008, 10:42:20 PM »
Isn't there "combat immunity" anymore?

There is no such thing as "combat immunity", per se.  Obviously, normal laws can't apply to military folks.  So we have the UCMJ.  Similiar to normal law, but you can kill people under many circumstances.  Congress can pass laws superceding the UCMJ.  The War Crimes Act would be one of those.  Civil control of the military and such. 
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seeker_two

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Re: Unreal...
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2008, 01:08:33 AM »
Quote
Scott Silliman, a law professor and executive director of the Center on Law, Ethics and National Security at Duke University, says it has little to do with questioning military decisions and everything to do with whether a service member committed a crime.

"From a legal point of view, there is no difference in law between war and peace," he said.

Scary quote....I have yet to hear of a military victory won by a lawyer.....  angry
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Leatherneck

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Re: Unreal...
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2008, 01:46:44 AM »
Quote
Once they complete their terms, troops cannot be prosecuted in military court.
I question the accuracy of this statement. If memory serves, separated members of the military services can be ordered back on active duty to be prosecuted under the UCMJ for acts committed while on active duty. There have been Vietnam-era deserters who have been subject to this very action.

It seems to me that when questionable actions are discovered after separation of the actor from active duty, if the military sees no need to recall and prosecute, then the matter should end right there.

Subjecting combat activities to civil law after the fact is obscene.

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Jamisjockey

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Re: Unreal...
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2008, 03:03:01 AM »
Quote
It looks like the reason this guy is up on charges is for intentionally shooting a captive-which is a situation not covered by the immunity you get in combat.

Allegedly....or did AlJazerra tell you he's guilty?
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De Selby

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Re: Unreal...
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2008, 04:55:16 PM »
Quote
It looks like the reason this guy is up on charges is for intentionally shooting a captive-which is a situation not covered by the immunity you get in combat.

Allegedly....or did AlJazerra tell you he's guilty?


No, the US attorneys office implied that when they indicted him for murder.

But then again, maybe Al Jazeera bought Mukasey from the AIPAC...err, not.  Not everything is a conspiracy or a media witch hunt-the fact that a US prosecutor charged this guy with a crime is not proof of a crime, but it is certainly very strong evidence that reasonable folks other than partisans believe a crime occurred.

My suspicion came from the only article I read on this particular case-the fox news article linked above, which says:

Quote
Nazario, of Riverside, is charged with one count of voluntary manslaughter on suspicion of killing or causing others to kill four unarmed detainees in November 2004 in Fallujah, during some of the fiercest fighting of the war. He also faces one count of assault with a deadly weapon and one count of discharging a firearm during a crime of violence.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Unreal...
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2008, 05:10:55 PM »
There is a name for shooting an unarmed, restrained individual without trial. That name is murder.

If indeed this occured, then the man who did it should be treated accordingly.

If we are at war, then the man who commits such a crime is a war criminal.

If we are not at war, then he is a murderer.

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SAK

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Re: Unreal...
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2008, 05:11:26 PM »
A lot of bad stuff is going on over there, a lot of crimes to be sure.  Was this guy IN the military when the crime allegedly occurred?  Or was he a contractor of some sort?

edit: Appears that he WAS IN at the time.  Very interesting.

Scout26

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Re: Unreal...
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2008, 06:04:47 PM »
Quote
Others say the law closes a loophole that allowed former military service members to slip beyond the reach of prosecution. Once they complete their terms, troops cannot be prosecuted in military court.

Uhh, nope.  You can still be recalled to active duty to face courts martial for crime committed while on active duty.

(Leatherneck beat me to it.)


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Ezekiel

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Re: Unreal...
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2008, 06:38:58 PM »
Subjecting combat activities to civil law after the fact is obscene.

Decidedly not, if the military refuses to hold itself accountable.

Besides, the military needs to be tried by citizens, not their "own."  Doing otherwise lets the inmates run the asylum.

I do not seem to recall that we have declared actual WAR on anyone...
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RevDisk

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Re: Unreal...
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2008, 06:51:48 PM »
Subjecting combat activities to civil law after the fact is obscene.

Decidedly not, if the military refuses to hold itself accountable.

Besides, the military needs to be tried by citizens, not their "own."  Doing otherwise lets the inmates run the asylum.

I do not seem to recall that we have declared actual WAR on anyone...

Er...  You're apparently not familiar with the UCMJ?  Often, military personnel are held to a much greater standard, legally speaking.  Congress specifically delegated military justice to the military.  It was not invented out of desire to "get away" with anything, but rather that military operations are significantly different than everyday civilian life.

No offense, but if there was even a remote chance of a person like you being anywhere near a position to be on the jury of a court martial, I'd have never joined.  Whether or not the perception is accurate, you very much sound like you'd find a person guilty automatically if they wore ACU's.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Unreal...
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2008, 06:52:48 PM »

Scary quote....I have yet to hear of a military victory won by a lawyer.....  angry

Battle of San Jacinto?
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K Frame

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Re: Unreal...
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2008, 06:53:13 PM »
"I do not seem to recall that we have declared actual WAR on anyone..."

Not particularly relevant.

A soldier can be tried under the UCMJ for crimes committed while on active duty while in peacetime.

UCMJ doesn't engage only when there's a declared war on.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Unreal...
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2008, 06:59:47 PM »

A soldier can be tried under the UCMJ for crimes committed while on active duty while in peacetime.

UCMJ doesn't engage only when there's a declared war on.

Quote
Nazario is the first military service member who has completed his duty to be brought to trial under a law that allows the government to prosecute defense contractors, military dependents and those no longer in the military who commit crimes outside the United States.

That there is key. Congress has passed a law that enables the government to try this man in this fashion, at least if the article is not lying.

The UCMJ is the creature of Congress. They can repeal bits of it as they feel like.
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Firethorn

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Re: Unreal...
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2008, 07:04:23 PM »
UCMJ doesn't engage only when there's a declared war on.

Correct.  If I was stupid enough to shoplift from the local BX, I'd be prosecuted under the UCMJ.  If I stole from work or slugged my boss, I'd be prosecuted under the UCMJ.  Depending, if I got a DUI downtown, I could be prosecuted under the UCMJ.  If it happened on base, it's a certainty.

The UCMJ applies wherever I go, from my house to my base to mars and beyond.

Gewehr98

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Re: Unreal...
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2008, 08:45:18 PM »
Zeke's profound lack of military knowledge notwithstanding, the UCMJ covers military personnel as long as they're assigned to the branch of service they're in. War, no war, peacetime, deployed, home station, whatever. That includes us retirees, I found out - although prosecutions there are fewer and further between.  You get a paycheck check from the DoD, you're under the UCMJ.  Something to think about, particularly with the concept of Double Jeopardy. 
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seeker_two

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Re: Unreal...
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2008, 01:03:22 AM »

Scary quote....I have yet to hear of a military victory won by a lawyer.....  angry

Battle of San Jacinto?

Bad example....Houston wasn't practicing law at the time....and he had a rock-solid capital case against Santa Anna & didn't prosecute...  angry
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Re: Unreal...
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2008, 04:54:08 AM »
A person can in fact be tried twice for the same crime. Happened a couple times in my old unit with guys getting DUI's. The state it happened in charged them, then they were punished under the UCMJ.
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K Frame

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Re: Unreal...
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2008, 05:19:42 AM »
Numerous officers on both sides of the Civil War, including combat officers, were attorneys in civilian life before joining either the Union or Confederate armies.

Whether it can be said that they "won" battles or not, I don't know.

I can think of one university professor, though, whose leadership very likely preserved the Union victory at Gettysburg.
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Scout26

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Re: Unreal...
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2008, 11:54:48 AM »
There's an old saying that if you're innocent you want a Courts Martial, if you're guilty you want a civilian trial.

RevDisk gots it right. 

There are certain crimes that are not covered under civilian law that are capital offenses under the UCMJ.

For example most of the Democrats could be tried for misbehavior before the enemy.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ucmj2.htm#899.%20ART.%2099.%20MISBEHAVIOR%20BEFORE%20THE%20ENEMY

Besides, the military needs to be tried by citizens, not their "own."  Doing otherwise lets the inmates run the asylum.

Not one of the 33 Courts Martial I was involved in (I was an MP, so I worked the Prosecution side  police)  did I ever see any evidence of "trying to protect our own".  In general it was the other was around.  Somebody had committed an offense prejudicial to the good order and discipline of military service and now they were going to pay the piper, in spades.

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Leatherneck

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Re: Unreal...
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2008, 02:45:21 PM »
Scout has it right. Military courts are tough. The UCMJ is arguably more stern than civilian law, especially under some judges. I only presided over one Summary Court martial--a Corporal who was caught red-handed with over a kilo of marijuana on base. I gave him six, six and a kick (six months in the brig, six months forfeiture of all pay, and a BCD. Because he was stupid, and we don't care for stupid Marines. BTW, this was when I was a Major.  police

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