Author Topic: Chavez just expelled the US ambassador  (Read 5864 times)

Manedwolf

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Chavez just expelled the US ambassador
« on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
And he's got Russian bombers landing there for the first time since the Kennedy administration.

I think the clown is very quickly becoming a Clear and Present Danger. Russian bombers in our hemisphere is no longer playing socialist games.

What are we going to do about it?

RocketMan

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Re: Chavez just expelled the US ambassador
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Nothing.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

Manedwolf

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Re: Chavez just expelled the US ambassador
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
And if they start putting in missiles?

I would not put it past Putin.

Brazil is probably having to change its pants about now with those bombers there. NOT what they want. And Bolivia is joining up with Chavez as well.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Chavez just expelled the US ambassador
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Holy crap! World war III, Cold War II. If only someone had warned us in advance . . .

The fear-factory machinery is a little bit rusty, having been shut down mostly since 2003. I think with a little oil . . .

De Selby

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Re: Chavez just expelled the US ambassador
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
And he's got Russian bombers landing there for the first time since the Kennedy administration.

I think the clown is very quickly becoming a Clear and Present Danger. Russian bombers in our hemisphere is no longer playing socialist games.

What are we going to do about it?


No country has the right to place heavy weapons near another country without its consent, just like in the 21st century, larger, more powerful nations, have no right to invade weaker nations.

Reading the lines people are spinning towards Russia is truly astounding these days.

I agree this is a bad thing, btw; but maybe we should've thought about that before we started arming all of Russia's neighbors against Russia?  And maybe we should've thought that someone else might take up the principle of "preemptive invasion" or "policy war" that we peddled in the run up to Iraq?

Suddenly "unilateral action" and "doing away with pansy diplomacy" don't look so hot.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

K Frame

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Re: Chavez just expelled the US ambassador
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
So we move a couple wings of bombers into Brazil.

Problem solved.
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RocketMan

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Re: Chavez just expelled the US ambassador
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
To clarify, I did not mean we should do nothing.  I meant we will do nothing.  Aside, perhaps, from some ineffective diplomatic complaining.
Sure, we could station a few of our aircraft in a nearby nation as a counter, but who would allow us to do that?  We aren't all that well loved down there.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

Regolith

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Re: Chavez just expelled the US ambassador
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
To clarify, I did not mean we should do nothing.  I meant we will do nothing.  Aside, perhaps, from some ineffective diplomatic complaining.
Sure, we could station a few of our aircraft in a nearby nation as a counter, but who would allow us to do that?  We aren't all that well loved down there.

Colombia probably would.
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yesitsloaded

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Re: Chavez just expelled the US ambassador
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Quote
So we move a couple wings of bombers into Brazil.

Problem solved.
Perhaps, or maybe they bring in bigger guns and start an arms race and we get to see who blinks first and hope no one shouts boo.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Chavez just expelled the US ambassador
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
And he's got Russian bombers landing there for the first time since the Kennedy administration.

I think the clown is very quickly becoming a Clear and Present Danger. Russian bombers in our hemisphere is no longer playing socialist games.

What are we going to do about it?


No country has the right to place heavy weapons near another country without its consent, just like in the 21st century, larger, more powerful nations, have no right to invade weaker nations.

Reading the lines people are spinning towards Russia is truly astounding these days.

I agree this is a bad thing, btw; but maybe we should've thought about that before we started arming all of Russia's neighbors against Russia?  And maybe we should've thought that someone else might take up the principle of "preemptive invasion" or "policy war" that we peddled in the run up to Iraq?

Suddenly "unilateral action" and "doing away with pansy diplomacy" don't look so hot.

"If only America hadn't stood up for what's right, these evil people wouldn't be evil." 

Yeah...

No...

Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

Removing one thug dictator from Iraq does not make us responsible for the actions of all the other thug dictators around the world.  That's all on them. 

I wish I could say I'm surprised that you've managed to implicate the US for what Chavez and Putin are doing. 

De Selby

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Re: Chavez just expelled the US ambassador
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
And he's got Russian bombers landing there for the first time since the Kennedy administration.

I think the clown is very quickly becoming a Clear and Present Danger. Russian bombers in our hemisphere is no longer playing socialist games.

What are we going to do about it?


No country has the right to place heavy weapons near another country without its consent, just like in the 21st century, larger, more powerful nations, have no right to invade weaker nations.

Reading the lines people are spinning towards Russia is truly astounding these days.

I agree this is a bad thing, btw; but maybe we should've thought about that before we started arming all of Russia's neighbors against Russia?  And maybe we should've thought that someone else might take up the principle of "preemptive invasion" or "policy war" that we peddled in the run up to Iraq?

Suddenly "unilateral action" and "doing away with pansy diplomacy" don't look so hot.

"If only America hadn't stood up for what's right, these evil people wouldn't be evil." 

Yeah...

No...

Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

Removing one thug dictator from Iraq does not make us responsible for the actions of all the other thug dictators around the world.  That's all on them. 

I wish I could say I'm surprised that you've managed to implicate the US for what Chavez and Putin are doing. 

The connection is in how Putin is talking about the antagonism and aggression-he's explicitly referencing Iraq and also the push to bring Russia's neighbors into NATO.


You can believe there's no connection if you want, but that would require not bothering to read anything about what's driving Russia to behave this way.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Gewehr98

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Re: Chavez just expelled the US ambassador
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
You can bet your sweet bippy there will be plenty of reconnaissance sorties looking for Russian land-based strategic missiles stationed in Venezuela.  Chavez and Castro are tight like that. 
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De Selby

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Re: Chavez just expelled the US ambassador
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
To clarify, I did not mean we should do nothing.  I meant we will do nothing.  Aside, perhaps, from some ineffective diplomatic complaining.
Sure, we could station a few of our aircraft in a nearby nation as a counter, but who would allow us to do that?  We aren't all that well loved down there.

What would be the point of stationing aircraft? It's not like the Russians don't know that we have their number-we built bases right near Russia.

This is old style international politics, pure and simple-it's Putin gradually trying to institute the rule that no violence will be used unilaterally if it crosses Putin's Russia.  He's already put out the message by humiliating Georgia, and now he's sending the message that he'll turn up the heat in Latin America in response to any more moves the US makes on Eastern Europe and Central Asia.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

yesitsloaded

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Re: Chavez just expelled the US ambassador
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Quote
You can bet your sweet bippy there will be plenty of reconnaissance sorties looking for Russian land-based strategic missiles stationed in Venezuela.
I thought we did all that by sat. now?
I can haz nukular banstiks ? Say no to furries, yes to people.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Chavez just expelled the US ambassador
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
And he's got Russian bombers landing there for the first time since the Kennedy administration.

I think the clown is very quickly becoming a Clear and Present Danger. Russian bombers in our hemisphere is no longer playing socialist games.

What are we going to do about it?


No country has the right to place heavy weapons near another country without its consent, just like in the 21st century, larger, more powerful nations, have no right to invade weaker nations.

Reading the lines people are spinning towards Russia is truly astounding these days.

I agree this is a bad thing, btw; but maybe we should've thought about that before we started arming all of Russia's neighbors against Russia?  And maybe we should've thought that someone else might take up the principle of "preemptive invasion" or "policy war" that we peddled in the run up to Iraq?

Suddenly "unilateral action" and "doing away with pansy diplomacy" don't look so hot.

"If only America hadn't stood up for what's right, these evil people wouldn't be evil." 

Yeah...

No...

Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

Removing one thug dictator from Iraq does not make us responsible for the actions of all the other thug dictators around the world.  That's all on them. 

I wish I could say I'm surprised that you've managed to implicate the US for what Chavez and Putin are doing. 

The connection is in how Putin is talking about the antagonism and aggression-he's explicitly referencing Iraq and also the push to bring Russia's neighbors into NATO.


You can believe there's no connection if you want, but that would require not bothering to read anything about what's driving Russia to behave this way.

Guys like Putin and Chavez are going to try to take over their neighbors regardless of what we do or don't do.  Putin can make all of the excuses he wants, and you can believe them all you want.  That doesn't make the excuses true.  Their actions are their own fault, not the result of the US actions.  Period.

You seem to be operating under the delusion that Putin or Chavez would happily mind their own business if not for the US.  That's stupid.  Putin was going to "turn up the heat" in Eastern Europe regardless of what we do.  Chavez was going to use any advantage he could get to assert himself over all of Latin America.

Do you honestly think that Putin or Chavez would have refrained from dominating their weaker neighbors if not for US action?  Do you understand nothing about these people?

De Selby

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Re: Chavez just expelled the US ambassador
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
You seem to be operating under the delusion that Putin or Chavez would happily mind their own business if not for the US.  That's stupid.  Putin was going to "turn up the heat" in Eastern Europe regardless of what we do.  Chavez was going to use any advantage he could get to assert himself over all of Latin America.

Do you honestly think that Putin or Chavez would have refrained from dominating their weaker neighbors if not for US action?  Do you understand nothing about these people?

Excuses matter because most countries will not make a move on another country without at least some excuse, for whatever reason.  Even Nazi Germany was full of them, so they do matter-the excuses tell you how the propaganda machine is working, at a minimum.  Second, when the "excuse" follows in time and specifically references some previous event, there's a very good chance that the previous event had something to do with the present.  Why Russia was not attacking Georgia and menacing eastern Europe throughout the 90's, for example, but is today, is something you can understand by looking at "excuses."

With regards to domination:

Putin has no interest in spending money on Eastern Europe, independent of using it as a security zone between Russia and the rest of the world.  There is nothing in Eastern Europe that he needs aside from distance, hence the obvious connection between US armaments flowing around Eastern Europe and Russia attacking one of its neighbors.

Chavez did not dominate any neighbor-so that's a red herring.

I think the problem here is that you have assumed you have an understanding of "these people" (who are completely and totally different-Chavez and Putin's rises to power could not be more in contrast) without actually reading anything on the subject, apart from a news headline that calls each a dictator. 

Failing to regard any of the factual details and intricacies of an entire country in considering that Country's policies is a recipe for some really odd, and frightfully bad, policy analysis.

Complicating this is that you are unwilling to consider that there might be any policy considerations for Putin or Chavez other than the character of Putin and Chavez.  What they do is not just influenced by, but is driven by, the political climates and geopolitical situation of their countries.  That's why if you pay attention to the specifics, Chavez's Venezuela and Putin's Russia are explicable in terms beyond "Well the guy that runs it wants to."
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

MicroBalrog

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Re: Chavez just expelled the US ambassador
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Quote
Why Russia was not attacking Georgia and menacing eastern Europe throughout the 90's, for example, but is today, is something you can understand by looking at "excuses."

Clearly you don't have any relatives who live in Russia, nor read their media on a daily basis.
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RocketMan

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Re: Chavez just expelled the US ambassador
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
It's not Russia making these militaristic moves, it's Putin making these militaristic moves.  This is not about Russian influence in the world, it is wholly about Putin's influence in the world.
The same holds true about Chavez in Venezuela.
Both of these men desire power.  It is that simple.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Chavez just expelled the US ambassador
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
It's not Russia making these militaristic moves, it's Putin making these militaristic moves. 


No, it's definitely RUSSIA. By which I mean, what Putin is doing is immensely popular. Even polls done by the Russian opposition - like Levada Center and other foundations like it - confirm that even if Russia had a perfectly fair and true election (which won't happen) - Putin, or one of his stooges, like Medvedev, would win in a huge landslide.

Sad, but true - there's a lot of people in Russia who think this sort of thing is great for their country.
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: Chavez just expelled the US ambassador
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Sad, but true - there's a lot of people in Russia who think this sort of thing is great for their country.

Theoretically, then, Americans and Russians should have a lot of common ground to build on.

HankB

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Re: Chavez just expelled the US ambassador
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Are we still sending any foreign aid to Russia?
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Nick1911

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Re: Chavez just expelled the US ambassador
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
What's the big deal?  The US builds missile sites in Poland, and Russia builds missile sites in S. America.

An eye for an eye; so to speak.

Manedwolf

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Re: Chavez just expelled the US ambassador
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
What's the big deal?  The US builds missile sites in Poland, and Russia builds missile sites in S. America.

An eye for an eye; so to speak.

We are not building missile sites in Poland. We are building interceptor sites in Poland. They cannot attack a city. They are only good for knocking down another missile in flight.

That is not the same as a nuclear ICBM.

onebigelf

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Re: Chavez just expelled the US ambassador
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
Chavez is EASILY reigned in if we have the will to do so.  Their crude oil is a particularly dirty heavy crude.  Guess who has the ONLY refineries that can handle it?  If we are willing to reduce the oil  supply for a while, and pay the prices, we can shut that little whiner right up.  Do we?

John

Nick1911

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Re: Chavez just expelled the US ambassador
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2005, 10:18:52 PM »
What's the big deal?  The US builds missile sites in Poland, and Russia builds missile sites in S. America.

An eye for an eye; so to speak.

We are not building missile sites in Poland. We are building interceptor sites in Poland. They cannot attack a city. They are only good for knocking down another missile in flight.

That is not the same as a nuclear ICBM.

So we're trying to cripple Russia's ability to mount an offensive or defensive attack by setting up interceptor sites in eastern Europe.  Their response was to make this air blockade ineffectual be setting up a site in S. America.

I still don't have a problem with this.  If Russia had set up interceptor sites around the US; we would (and should) respond similarly.