Author Topic: Twenty die in Russian nuclear sub accident  (Read 2505 times)

Desertdog

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Twenty die in Russian nuclear sub accident
« on: November 09, 2008, 11:49:20 AM »
Another person speaking when they know not what they ar talking about.   "Results of a preliminary investigation show that death occurred as a result of freon gas entering the lungs."  Halon gas is used for fire surpressant not Freon.  Freon exposed to fire produces phosgene gas, extremely deadly, used in WW1.  Halon and Freon will kill in enclosed areas if enough is released to dieplace the normal air.


Twenty die in Russian nuclear sub accident
By Yuri Maltsev
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE4A738V20081109?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&rpc=22&sp=true

VLADIVOSTOK, Russia (Reuters) - Twenty people were killed on board a Russian nuclear submarine, the navy said on Sunday, in an accident that exposed the gap between the Kremlin's ambitions and its military capability.

The accident, which happened while the submarine was on sea trials in the Pacific Ocean, was the deadliest to hit Russia's navy since the Kursk nuclear submarine exploded beneath the Barents Sea in 2000, killing all 118 sailors on board.

Prosecutors investigating the latest incident said they suspected the victims died after inhaling a toxic gas used as a fire suppressant when the vessel's fire extinguishing systems went off unexpectedly.

It was not clear why the portable breathing gear usually issued to Russian submarine crews did not save them. A navy spokesman said the nuclear reactor was not damaged and the vessel was now in port.

"Twenty people died," the Prosecutor-General's Office said in a statement. "Results of a preliminary investigation show that death occurred as a result of freon gas entering the lungs."

Twenty-one people were injured and taken to a military hospital in Vladivostok. Many of those on board were civilian workers from the shipyard that built the submarine.

Vera Sanzhonova said she had driven to Bolshoi Kamen, the naval base where the submarine was moored, to seek word on her husband, a civilian technician who was on board.

"I have not received any news. My husband is neither on the list of those injured nor among the dead," she told Reuters.

"I've been driving here all the way down from Vladivostok, shedding tears and swallowing pills."

Asked if there was a hope her husband was alive she said: "None at all, just despair."

KREMLIN AMBITIONS

President Dmitry Medvedev ordered the Defense Ministry to carry out a full inquiry, the Kremlin press service said.

The Kremlin is seeking to establish itself as a global power and is using the military to project its influence. A flotilla of warships is heading to U.S. foe Venezuela for the biggest maneuvers in the Caribbean Sea since the Cold War ended.

But analysts say the navy in particular is still struggling with the legacy of over a decade of under-funding, despite a cash injection in the past few years.

"This most recent incident signals that, though Russia is increasingly assertive and aggressive on the geopolitical stage, it still faces very real challenges in terms of the revitalization of its naval power," Stratfor, a U.S.-based consultancy, said in a commentary.

The navy said 208 people -- or nearly three times more than its usual crew -- were on board the submarine. Seventeen of the dead were employees of Amur Ship-Building Enterprise and three were sailors, prosecutors said.

"It is possible that some of the people lingered (putting on their breathing apparatus) or they did not have the apparatus at all," Ruslan Pukhov, director of military think tank the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technology, told the Ekho Moskvy radio station.

The navy did not identify the submarine. Russian news agencies quoted naval sources as saying it was the Nerpa, classified by NATO as an Akula-class attack submarine.

Media reports said Russia had planned to lease the submarine to the Indian armed forces but there was no confirmation of this. In Delhi, a navy spokesman said it had no plans to purchase any submarines from Russia at the moment.

(Additional reporting by Dmitry Solovyov in Moscow and Delhi newsroom; Writing by Guy Faulconbridge and Christian Lowe; Editing by Angus MacSwan)

280plus

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Re: Twenty die in Russian nuclear sub accident
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2008, 11:57:07 AM »
Yea, freon would be a dumb thing to use for fire suppresion given the phosgene gas aspect. I've inhaled a bit of phosgene in my day, not pleasant. I suspect they were overcome by O2 depletion before the were able to get to breathing apparatus. it doesn't take long.
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MillCreek

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Re: Twenty die in Russian nuclear sub accident
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2008, 12:57:26 PM »
As soon as I saw the first news story, I thought "Halon discharge in a sealed compartment".
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Ben

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Re: Twenty die in Russian nuclear sub accident
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2008, 02:16:33 PM »
I just heard there were over 200 military and civilian personnel onboard that sub and that its normal max crew complement is around 50.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 02:31:21 PM by Ben »
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Re: Twenty die in Russian nuclear sub accident
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2008, 05:06:12 PM »
Sea trials, there's always a crapload of civilians from the contractors onboard during trials, even in Russia apparently. The HMS Hood went down with a bunch of civilian contractors on board, no time to get them off before chasing down the Bismarck.
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Twenty die in Russian nuclear sub accident
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2008, 05:46:18 PM »
When one chooses to rattle one's sabre, it can damage the intended effect when the blade falls out of the hilt.

Rattle away Putin, you've only got one real threat left and most of those probably won't work either.
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Re: Twenty die in Russian nuclear sub accident
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2008, 07:17:24 PM »
If they really are using freon in their subs, does this mean a return to the Cold War ?

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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Twenty die in Russian nuclear sub accident
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2008, 09:22:59 PM »
As a former Submariner that story sends a chill down my spine. When the Kusrk was lost I even had a few nightmares, having sailed those same waters.

Many it could have happened, I don't know if they use Halon or CO2 but either will displace the oxygen. Also consider a fire in a closed space will very rapidly consume all the oxygen in the space. Consider the Bow compartment of a Sturgeon class fast attack sub was only a little over 25' long and 30' some foot in diameter and quite a bit of that space was taken up by equipment and bulkheads and decks.
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grampster

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Re: Twenty die in Russian nuclear sub accident
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2008, 11:48:18 PM »
A couple of decades ago, a friend of mine worked for a company that installed Halon gas fire suppressors in watercraft.  They claimed it was safe if you happened to be in an engine compartment that caught fire in a large pleasure craft.  They had one testimonial from a guy who was immersed in an engine compartment fire, but was uninjured because the Halon put the fire out so fast it did not have time to burn him.  That's usually small quarters and one can exit it quite fast I would think.  If you were confined in a space and a large amount of  Halon swamped the compartment, it seems like it could asphyxiate one unless it dissipates or degrades rapidly and good air continues to be pumped into the area.
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Firethorn

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Re: Twenty die in Russian nuclear sub accident
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2008, 12:45:26 AM »
If you were confined in a space and a large amount of  Halon swamped the compartment, it seems like it could asphyxiate one unless it dissipates or degrades rapidly and good air continues to be pumped into the area.

As you note, a pleasure craft engine room like likely to have relatively large amounts of fresh air entering it.  In a submarine, it's possible that whatever happened also blocked the exit/s - choke points are rather common.

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Re: Twenty die in Russian nuclear sub accident
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2008, 12:00:42 PM »
I don't see this as any sign of Russia's military inferiority. I'd venture to say we are as susceptible to this, we manage to kill a few people every year with confined spaces and CHT pipe ruptures. Our training is good for our sailors, not so for ship riders. Want to scare 2,000 Marines? Go to GQ for a mainspace major fuel oil leak. They shove each other out of the way and scream at each other to get out of your way while you haul ass to get suited up.
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Scout26

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Re: Twenty die in Russian nuclear sub accident
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2008, 01:56:43 PM »
Could they have been poisoned by Freon as a result of leak in the cooling systems ??
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French G.

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Re: Twenty die in Russian nuclear sub accident
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2008, 02:42:03 PM »
I imagine it was something lost in the translation. Two halogenated hydrocarbons, different purposes.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Twenty die in Russian nuclear sub accident
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2008, 02:48:12 PM »
What ever the cause those men had mothers, wives and children, let's don't forget that.
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MechAg94

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Re: Twenty die in Russian nuclear sub accident
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2008, 05:00:42 PM »
Confined space accidents kill people probably every year in chemical plants also.  I don't know the current statistics.  Normally low O2.
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