More about submarines

[K Frame]

I’ve heard of people jamming a .30-06 into an Arisaka and firing it.  Bullet got swagged to .264 and case was fire formed to 6.5jap.  Rifle was supposedly fine afterwards.

When I was at American Rifleman we had a Type 38 Arisaka in the reference gun collection, given to us by a member. He had rechambered it for, I believe, .308, but hadn't bored out the barrel. He realized his mistake when he fired it and recoil was off the charts. Apparently the action was pretty hard to open because the case had flowed so much.

Ed Harris, I believe, fired it a number of times from a test rig at the NRA range and captured the bullets. They were very odd looking bullets.

The action? It came through just fine, although recoil was severe enough that the stock cracked.

[HankB]

When I was at American Rifleman we had a Type 38 Arisaka in the reference gun collection, given to us by a member. He had rechambered it for, I believe, .308, but hadn't bored out the barrel. He realized his mistake when he fired it and recoil was off the charts. Apparently the action was pretty hard to open because the case had flowed so much.

Ed Harris, I believe, fired it a number of times from a test rig at the NRA range and captured the bullets. They were very odd looking bullets.

The action? It came through just fine, although recoil was severe enough that the stock cracked.

From submarines to Arisakas - no thread drift there.

I've read that the Japs used not only good steel, but had a very refined differential heat treating process as well, making early production 6.5mm Type 38 rifles extremely strong. The Type 38 was replaced by the 7.7mm Type 99s. As WWII went on the quality of Type 99s steadily declined, and those produced near the end of the war are often regarded as unsafe to shoot.

I have my Dad's WWII bringback Type 38 Arisaka. With a serial number in the 497xxx range, it's a Koishikawa Arsenal rifle; they made over 2 million between 1906 and 1935. I don't have a production date, but I think it was probably made before 1930, and possibly before 1920.  The mum is partly ground, but it was overstamped with the Jap's "school" mark, and has a couple of leading zeroes added to the serial number. It's in pretty good shape for something ~100 years old that went through a war, and is complete with dust cover, hooked quillon blued bayonet, spring loaded green muzzle cover, and one clip of WWII Jap ammo. I've shot it - it works just fine.

[230RN]

Logical transition....pressure related.  I'm a little curious about the purpose of the hook on the quillion.  To entangle the opponent's weapon?  It's not some kind of a stacking device, is it?

I remember 60+ years ago I toyed with fencing in college and there was a guy on the fencing team who had some kind of guard on his foil with which he could de-foil an opponent with a tricky twist of his wrist.  (ETA Dredging the mud of my memory, I think it was a Belgian foil.)

I never really joined the team, thinking basically that fencing was about as practical a sporting competition as thumb-wrestling or tossing the caber.

[WLJ]

Logical transition....pressure related.  I'm a little curious about the purpose of the hook on the quillion.  To entangle the opponent's weapon?  It's not some kind of a stacking device, is it?

First guess was correct IIRC
Usually used to catch and maybe even break an opponent's bayonet.

[HankB]

. . .
I never really joined the team, thinking basically that fencing was about as practical a sporting competition as thumb-wrestling or tossing the caber.

Fencing? Just remember that the pointy end goes into the other man.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chbBwEDIuOU

My college didn't have any interesting sports - although there WAS a shooting range in the basement of one of the buildings on campus - I think it was .22 rimfire only. Freshman year I checked it out and it was there to support the ROTC program, which was actually pretty low key at my college. Yes, it was there for student use - but ROTC membership was a requirement. Couple of years later the admin was quietly moving to shut it down and the ROTC boss (don't remember his rank or title) was going around with a petition to keep it open. When he approached a couple of us during lunch break looking for our support, we inquired if we could use the range.

Our "NO" to supporting him was as emphatic as his "NO" to granting us range access - which made him a might upset. As was our laughter at his reaction.     Don't know what ever happened to it.

First guess was correct IIRC
Usually used to catch and maybe even break an opponent's bayonet.

I think he's got the right of it about the hooked quillon. Maybe - considering it was the Japanese - they were trained to use it against swords as well?

[WLJ]

I think he's got the right of it about the hooked quillon.

Yep, thought I pointed that out

[230RN]

My college was the 200+ acre estate of C. W. Post on the North Shore of Long Island and was donated to became operational by  Long Island University the year before I enrolled there. 

There was a buried (not quite "underground") shooting range there for the family.  I had a buddy who had a permit from Nassau County and was getting his full degree.  He would get the key from the guard (there was only one security person) and we'd go in and shoot his carry gun (only a .22) he was always a little nervous about "us" (unlicensed of course) being there, so we'd shoot a couple of rounds and have to leave. 

I'll bet that range is a "wine cellar" or other non-threatening non-eeevilll name nowadays.

There was a lot of interesting stuff on that new estate/campus but I'll bet it is all removed or thoroughly secured now.

A guu--uuhn range on the campus?  The very thought !

[HankB]

Yep, thought I pointed that out

Well, to give credit where credit is due, it was you I quoted in my post just above my comment. 

[K Frame]

Logical transition....pressure related.  I'm a little curious about the purpose of the hook on the quillion.  To entangle the opponent's weapon?  It's not some kind of a stacking device, is it?

Both, although it apparently was seen "primarily" as part of the offensive capability for bayonet fighting.

The Type 38 rifle didn't have a separate stacking swivel like other guns of the period -- so the hooked quillion was a good substitute.

[K Frame]

"Koishikawa Arsenal"

Been a long time since I've heard the Tokyo Arsenal called that.

[230RN]

Da capo.  This is a duplicate of my post at <https://armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=68578.msg1406227#msg1406227> regarding the "presumed human remains" in the Titan submersible implosion:
-----------------------------------
The latest information I can find on the "presumed human remains" is from 28 June.  It was apparently entangled in the wreckage and I presume it would be difficult to remove it for analysis keeping in mind respect for the dead.  But I guess by now (9 July 2023) some information should be available.

I note in the many photos of the recovery that the items were often covered with tarps.  I wondered if there was a technical reason for that or whether that was perhaps to cover up  any visible remains.
-------------------------------

Terry, 230RN

[HankB]

. . . The latest information I can find on the "presumed human remains" is from 28 June.  It was apparently entangled in the wreckage and I presume it would be difficult to remove it for analysis keeping in mind respect for the dead.  But I guess by now (9 July 2023) some information should be available . . .

The remains would likely resemble pink slime (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_slime) perhaps with a sprinkling of bone shards or teeth. I doubt they'd be identifiable without DNA analysis or perhaps dental records. I know TV dramas manage to do DNA matches in minutes, but I wonder how long it takes in REAL life. Especially when the remains of 5 different individuals may be intermixed.

I wonder if any of the passengers was wearing a ring, watch, or other jewelry that might have survived the implosion. (Well, maybe not a watch. At least not intact.)

[230RN]

^
I didn't realize "pink slime" was an actual term; thanks for the link.  I thought it was just a dark-humor made-up term which somebody came up with here on APS, like "homogenized human" (ick).

Agreed on the difficulty, but I imagined many people, inxcluding from the media, would have been asking about this and figured there would be some statements available from Officialdom by now.

Slime or not, decay processes should have begun by now if the large mechanical parts were not kept in the cold.  So.   I also wondered in the "homogenization" case, how funeral processes would work --common grave, as with many battle victims?

No, I'm not some sort of ghoul, just really interested in the technical problems which occurred to me in this case.   I reckon many people --including in the media --would be likewise interested and done some asking, but I haven't seen anything on it at this point in time, "respect for the dead" notwithstanding.

Terry, 230RN

[HankB]

^^^
Details will eventually show up in some coroner's report - where that would happen, I don't know. If some reporter decides to publish details, it will be buried inside the paper or only mentioned on the air in the briefest possible way - assuming the editor doesn't spike the story entirely in the name of good taste, respect for the dead, concern about the next of kin, etc. MAYBE someone will make the report available on the internet, but distinguishing actual facts from a fake story might be difficult.

[230RN]

OK, so I guess the upshot to my question about not hearing anything is related to the probable difficulty of the analysis and mainstream media is being circumspect for now.  That answers my basic question, so thanks.

Terry, 230RN