Author Topic: Man killed by Scientology guard  (Read 16071 times)

MicroBalrog

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Man killed by Scientology guard
« on: November 24, 2008, 03:44:17 AM »
Man killed by Scientology guard

A security guard has shot and killed a man on the grounds of a Hollywood building owned by the Scientology church, Los Angeles police say.

Reports say the unidentified man arrived at the Scientology Celebrity Centre wielding swords.

Police are questioning the security guard to determine whether the shooting was justified.

The building, in the style of a French castle, serves as a meeting place for artists and performers.

The Church of Scientology was established in 1945 by science-fiction writer L Ron Hubbard.

It claims 10 million members worldwide, including celebrity devotees Tom Cruise and John Travolta.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/americas/7745143.stm

Published: 2008/11/24 03:26:22 GMT

© BBC MMVIII

Micro Sez:

Something tells me this will be obscured by people liking/hating Scientology.

But something is fishy.

I mean. If someone broke into a regular church wielding a pair of shots, wouldn't he be shot to ribbons in five seconds flat?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Regolith

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Re: Man killed by Scientology guard
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2008, 04:11:16 AM »
Quote
I mean. If someone broke into a regular church wielding a pair of shots, wouldn't he be shot to ribbons in five seconds flat?

Depends on where and when it happened.  Most churches in the US don't have armed security outside whichever patrons have a concealed carry permit and pack heat to services, so it'd be pretty unlikely unless they were breaking in during services in an area with a high % of concealed carry permit holders.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Man killed by Scientology guard
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2008, 04:22:59 AM »
Right, but what I mean is:

If I walked into a church in, say, Virginia with a pair of bared katanas and looked vaguely menacing and waved them around, nobody would think twice about me being shot, right? I mean, should this be different because he was invading a scientologist center rather than a church?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

mtnbkr

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Re: Man killed by Scientology guard
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2008, 07:00:32 AM »
We wouldn't even need the katanas.  ;)

Seriously though, in Va, no guns during religious services.  Yeah, doesn't make sense to me either.

Chris

MicroBalrog

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Re: Man killed by Scientology guard
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2008, 07:19:58 AM »
We wouldn't even need the katanas.  ;)

Seriously though, in Va, no guns during religious services.  Yeah, doesn't make sense to me either.

Chris

...they do realize that there are rabbinical rulings that MANDATE people with guns to be present during prayer?

(not sure if they apply inthe US, but you see my point)
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Harold Tuttle

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Re: Man killed by Scientology guard
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2008, 07:43:12 AM »

was the sword wielder wearing a guy fawkes mask?
"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Man killed by Scientology guard
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2008, 08:20:43 AM »
...they do realize that there are rabbinical rulings that MANDATE people with guns to be present during prayer?

(not sure if they apply inthe US, but you see my point)

I know of at least one church in our area (non-jewish) where the Ushers are mostly armed.  Employee number 3 used to go there, and was an usher, and had been asked to take a CFP class.  They were even going to supply the firearm and additional training.
She was assigned to actually take care of the preacher's wife during the services.
Seems that a sister church in another state had an incident where a woman waited in the bathroom for the preacher's wife and stabbed her after a service. 

Concealed means concealed.  No metal detectors?  I'll take my chances.
JD

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Bob F.

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Re: Man killed by Scientology guard
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2008, 08:33:20 AM »
Roger, that, JJ!

Bob
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dogmush

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Re: Man killed by Scientology guard
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2008, 09:14:46 AM »
I think we need more info to figure out who to blame.  Were the swords bared, or in a scabbard?  Was there a confrontation? Did the guard use some kind of EOF, and does he have to in CA?  Being LA was he legaly armed?

I would put this more in line with someone running into a carnival tent with swords then running into a church.

(Carnivals and Scientology both have flashy people, no content, like privacy, and exist to seperate people from large sums of money)

Manedwolf

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Re: Man killed by Scientology guard
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2008, 09:25:03 AM »
We wouldn't even need the katanas.  ;)

Seriously though, in Va, no guns during religious services.  Yeah, doesn't make sense to me either.

Chris

Someone just now ran into a church in Jersey and shot his estranged wife and, I think, someone else. So no, that doesn't make sense.

Jamisjockey

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Re: Man killed by Scientology guard
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2008, 10:05:40 AM »


I would put this more in line with someone running into a carnival tent with swords then running into a church.

(Carnivals and Scientology both have flashy people, no content, like privacy, and exist to seperate people from large sums of money)

Your analogy offers nothing to the discussion.
The man presumably entered private property with two swords.  Attacking scientology lends nothing to this debate.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

MechAg94

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Re: Man killed by Scientology guard
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2008, 10:10:24 AM »
The article I saw linked on Drudge mentioned that the surveillance cameras backed up the claim by the security guard of self defense.  So I am assuming the swords were bared and used in a threatening manner. 
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Man killed by Scientology guard
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2008, 11:12:36 AM »

was the sword wielder wearing a guy fawkes mask?

One hopes so. I hate anon.
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dogmush

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Re: Man killed by Scientology guard
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2008, 11:57:34 AM »
Quote
Your analogy offers nothing to the discussion.
The man presumably entered private property with two swords.  Attacking scientology lends nothing to this debate.

While I was being snarky, I was also trying to make an (I think) valis point.  Namely that while the OP said:

Quote
I mean. If someone broke into a regular church wielding a pair of shots

I don't think that that's a good comparison. I think a "meeting place for artists and performers" could best be compared to .....something other then a church and I failed to come up with a good analogy.  I thought Carnival covered "artists and perfomers"  and I added some other perceved (to me) similarities.

I conceed that my sarcasm occluded my intent there.  Let's say a dance studio, or theater during rehersals then.

I also renew my interest in more info.

In Clearwater, "on the grounds of.." means their part of the sidewalk, and in modern journalistic lingo "wielding" could mean many things.

Did the gaurd save folks from a rouge Ninja, or did he cap someone on the way to a Ren. Fair?

Haven't seen the Drudge report yet, video is always good stuff to have.

As an aside; who uses swords?

MicroBalrog

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Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

dogmush

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Re: Man killed by Scientology guard
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2008, 12:06:28 PM »
Wow, not the news article I was expecting when I saw Al Jazzerra.  That's what one gets for assumptions.

But that was a truck and a knife as I recall.  I'm imagining 3 feet of steel here, not a "survival" blade from Cheaper Then Dirt.

More "Highlander" less "Crocidile Dundee".  But maybe my mental picture is wrong.

Ned Hamford

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Re: Man killed by Scientology guard
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2008, 12:09:30 PM »
As an aside; who uses swords?

Interesting fact.  My brother while acting as a LEO was involved in a shooting when he and his partner were attacked by someone with a battle axe.  Well, ok, not a sword... but still crazy people.
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RaspberrySurprise

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Re: Man killed by Scientology guard
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2008, 12:09:48 PM »
Look, tiny text!

MicroBalrog

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Re: Man killed by Scientology guard
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2008, 12:54:19 PM »
Except he used a survival knife and not a sword.

This?
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2005/04/03/sword-050403.html

Or this?

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/282033

Or this?

http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2008/08/12/5145_ntnews.html

[yes I know it says a 'cane knife'. But it's a two-foot 'knife'. Sword enough for me.]
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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ArfinGreebly

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Re: Man killed by Scientology guard
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2008, 01:11:53 PM »
There is a surveillance tape.

Dude drove up in a red convertible, removed two "Samurai" swords, and advanced on a group of armed security guards while brandishing those swords.

The security guard challenged him, ordered him to stop, and waited until he was actually close enough to be a serious personal threat to the guards before finally shooting.

Their "Celebrity Center" location serves a number of high-profile . . . uh . . . celebrities, as well as executives and business owners.

They take their security very seriously.  They employ a private firm with armed staff to look after that stuff.

It doesn't take a genius to understand why.

Micro makes a good point.  If it had been any other church, the news would have simply said "a church," or possibly, "a synagogue."  The media is alert, however, to any opportunity to do their "OH NOES, A CULT!" thing.  Except, in this instance, the media have played this one really, really straight.  I think the surveillance tape and the remarks of the Deputy Chief may have helped keep the speculation down.

While ideally any church would be well advised to have armed ushers or other staff, there is always the sticky bit of having the press drag the church over the coals, wondering sternly about an "armed church" and drawing weird conclusions.

So it only makes sense -- especially if your church has been routinely attacked since the sixties -- to keep relentless attorneys and armed security firms on your payroll.

One of the neighboring residents made an interesting remark, along the lines of:  "That's one of the nice things about living here, you get security for free."

So, what did we learn today?

Protecting your church and its parishioners is a good thing.

Alternatively, the story reads, ". . . more than a dozen celebrities and business executives were injured today in a bloody attack by a sword-wielding madman . . ." instead of the more pedestrian "nutjob attacks church location, gets shot for his trouble."

Good on them for having ARMED security.

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Uncle Bubba

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Re: Man killed by Scientology guard
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2008, 01:16:00 PM »

...a rouge Ninja



Was the guy just trying to be different? I thought Ninjas wore black.



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Re: Man killed by Scientology guard
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2008, 01:31:28 PM »
Eh, the security guard has already been cleared, probably waited until "swordsman"
was well inside the 21 ft space recommended by "tueller drill". ( it was caught on video, I'd like to watch it )

There are crazies both inside scientology and attacking scientology from the outside.

Islam has the jihadist wacko's
Christians have Westboro baptist wacko's

Is there any religion that doesn't have wacko's?
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Ned Hamford

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Re: Man killed by Scientology guard
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2008, 01:35:29 PM »
Improbus a nullo flectitur obsequio.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Man killed by Scientology guard
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2008, 01:39:24 PM »
Christians have Westboro baptist wacko's

Is there any religion that doesn't have wacko's?

You know, that's really not fair.   :mad:   We have a whole lot more wackos than that.   :laugh:

Never mind.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 01:52:30 PM by Mr. Tactical pants »
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Man killed by Scientology guard
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2008, 01:45:44 PM »
Quote
Still, it's amusing to see some of you pretending that the Scientologists should be regarded as a normal religion.  Tongue   rolleyes 

See, from where I stand, every religion has its mythology, and all the mythologies don't make sense to me. And then every religion has a code of behavior that the myths serve to justify, and none of these make 100% sense to me, but I don't see where I, being an agnostic, get a high horse from which to call Scientologists wackier than, say, Orthodox Jews of the Ovadia Yosef brand.

That said: What the [supernatural location of choice] does it have to do with what took place here?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner