Author Topic: Christmas Eve with liberals (not political)  (Read 14134 times)

Monkeyleg

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Re: Christmas Eve with liberals (not political)
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2008, 06:11:30 PM »
Balog, they're likable idiots. ;)

Nematocyst

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Re: Christmas Eve with liberals (not political)
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2008, 11:42:29 PM »
Balog, thanks for the warm welcome.  =)

I was once Nematocyst 870, but no longer own the 870, so am now just Nematocyst, both here, both versions of THR, and on Marlin Owner's Forum. (A couple of others also, but rarely visit them.)

I go by "Nem" to save key strokes.

Quote
... it's generally considered trolling to post that people who take a different  position than you
on controversial issues like religion v. evolution or global warming are reality denying flat earth idiots.

I accept your criticism to a point. I explicitly did not use the word "idiots" (that's your word, and doesn't reflect my meaning). I was, however, challenging our thread host Monkeyleg a bit because even though we share a disapproval of ... certain new age practices (for good reason), we ostensibly differ on certain other issues in contemporary science, notably the "warming" issue.

If we are going to apply logic and reason to one, we should do the same for both.

Just seemed like a bit of double standard there. I admit I could have done a better job of expressing that.
It was the end of my day, after a year and a half of no days off (yes, you read that correctly),
and just too tired to express it well, yada yada, no excuses.
__________

Also, I'm just wandering back into APS after several years of being absent. I left after a very brief stay about two years ago because of some fairly negative experiences. I'll confess that I unfairly drug in with me expectations based on those experiences.

Clearly, the staff have done an excellent job in taming the negative tones that were here in the past.

And, OK, OK, what can I say: I'm a late blooming punk who does his best to keep it in check.  :rolleyes:

I'll work on it, and try to do better.  :cool:



« Last Edit: December 26, 2008, 11:49:31 PM by Nematocyst »
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Manedwolf

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Re: Christmas Eve with liberals (not political)
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2008, 12:43:56 AM »
Not strictly true. Locking a 4wd vehicle in 4wd forces the front driveshaft speed to be the same as the rear driveshaft speed, thus one axle cannot lock up without the other. This also makes engine braking effect both the front and back instead of just the drive axle. On trucks with light rear axles that constantly lock up before the front, using 4wd can improve braking tremendously.

Let me quote to you from a conversation the other day.

"When you go down an icy hill, you should downshift and use engine braking, not use the brakes."

"Oh, I can't, I have, an automatic."

"That's what the 1 and 2 are on your automatic. D4 is all gears, D3 and 2 and 1 will limit it to those gears for more torque."

"Whatever, I don't know how to use that."

Balog

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Re: Christmas Eve with liberals (not political)
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2008, 02:03:38 AM »
Very well, Nem then. :)

Thanks for the well spoken reply. I acknowledge your intentions, although I think it's a bit disingenous to say comparing someone to a flat earther isn't an insult roughly comparable to calling them an idiot. However, I can understand the way previous bad experiences can colour the perceptions. And it's easy to get a bit carried away about a subject you feel strongly about.  But we've had a lot of people who come into a thread about something totally mundane like house repairs or car selection and take potshots at Bush or whatever their pet "axe to grind" is, an action which inevitably derails a good and useful thread into pointless arguments and acrimony. These are our previous bad experiences that colour our perceptions. To be very honest if I didn't have such a strong regard for you from THR I'd have been actively trying to get a ban issued over that little jibe. I hope my  admonition won't be taken wrong: we strongly believe in community policing here, and I certainly mean no disrespect. This is a unique and somewhat insular community, and it's easy for newcomers to step on toes without knowing or intending to. I merely wish to inform you of our customs so we can avoid some needless friction.
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Nematocyst

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Re: Christmas Eve with liberals (not political)
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2008, 03:27:58 AM »
I thank you, also, Balog, for your well-written response.

I think we've almost resolved this, but just to be sure, respectfully, please let me address one of your statements.

Quote
... I think it's a bit disingenous to say comparing someone to a flat earther isn't an insult roughly comparable to calling them an idiot.

I'll quote what I wrote, then point out several things about it, just for clarity.
(For those who don't care, just ignore this post.)

(Please forgive me for picking these points, but if we're going to avoid conflict, then IMO we need to acknowledge word meanings carefully, lest we talk past one another. It's the teacher in that asserts the importance of being clear in both expression and interpretation, writing and reading very carefully, not reading into someone's words something that isn't there, which has often caused fights or wars.)

Quote
Furthermore, astrology is based upon Ptolemy's model of the universe, which fell from scientific grace at the hands of Copernicus in 1530.
That belief system
is riddled with more logical fallacies than those who still argue that the Earth is flat or that evolution doesn't happen.

Some people take longer to grasp scientific reality than others.

Of course, the same could be said of those who deny the reality of global warming.

Four points.

1) Let's be clear about who I was calling "flat Earthers". If one reads carefully, it's clear that I was referring to astrologers whose views are "riddled with more logical fallacies" than flat Earthers. Note that I refer explicitly to "that belief system". After all, the model upon which astrology is based was discredited almost 500 years ago with the work of Copernicus. Why does that not rank with those who claim Earth is flat? (Not a rhetorical question.)

[Added by edit: 1B) They are free to believe anything they wish. That's a 1A right, and I'll fight for that right. I even know some folks that are into it. No "close friends", but friends of friends, and well meaning people. But when they start claiming that belief system is grounded in science, then, then debate begins.]

2) Again, the word "idiot" (= a person of subnormal intelligence) - does not appear in my statement. People who are above normal intelligence sometimes simply don't pay attention to new evidence and new models. It doesn't make them an "idiot", simply ignorant of new data. I think you can recognize that "ignorant" (= a state resulting from ignoring something) does not equal "idiot" (an inability to grasp something even if one does not ignore it).

3) The statement, "Some people take longer to grasp scientific reality than others" is independent of (does not follow from or depend upon) the previous statements. It stands on its own. (Imagine a line between that statement and the one above it.) Even so, taking longer to grasp scientific reality does not imply idiocy, merely the fact that not all are paying close enough attention to the latest evidence or changes in the models. It leaves open the very real (and likely) possibility that once they perceive the evidence, their view will change (ostensibly unlike the astrologers).

4) It is the latter characterization - not paying attention - that I suggest applies to those who are denying global warming. The large majority - including, I trust, members of APS - are simply not necessarily paying attention to the evidence, and do not deserve to be labeled as below normal intelligence. They are not idiots. Quite soon, the evidence will be overwhelming and they will "get it".

After all, many super intelligent people are involved in automobile accidents because they are not paying close attention to some issue. Perhaps the baby is sick in the back seat, they got a cell phone call, or took a bite of the burger while changing lanes, whatever. That doesn't make them idiots. It means they weren't paying attention. It can happen to anyone. I've done my fair share of oops.

Regardless of the short comings of my expression, that was the meaning I intended to convey.

I offer an apology to you, Monkeyleg or others who were offended by my expression.
____________

Added by edit:

I'm really appreciating the vibe over here.
It's night/day different from two years ago.

Nice job, guys. Very nice job.
The idea of "community policing" is cool.  :cool:

Also, Monkeyleg, it just clicked for me who you are.
I knew I recognized your user name. But there so many
user names to keep track of for people we've never met.

I haven't heard from you in a while on THR.
Now, I know where you've been.
Sorry to make waves.
Interesting thread.

And for the record,
I've got more than a few
... strange relatives, also.

Be well.

Nem

Write, edit, write, edit more, post, edit,
then edit some more 'til we get it right.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 04:48:13 AM by Nematocyst »
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KD5NRH

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Re: Christmas Eve with liberals (not political)
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2008, 06:04:19 AM »
"That's what the 1 and 2 are on your automatic. D4 is all gears, D3 and 2 and 1 will limit it to those gears for more torque."

With the caveat that "2" generally limits it to just second, rather than first and second.  This can be a bit disconcerting when trying to start off in overweight, underpowered vehicles.

Quote
"Whatever, I don't know how to use that."

This is one of those comments that just makes me want to slap people.  Learning is what life is all about.  When you refuse to continue learning, you don't deserve to continue wasting resources.


BryanP

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Re: Christmas Eve with liberals (not political)
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2008, 07:02:38 AM »
It's not unreasonable to think that astrology (in the sense that the time of year you were born could have an effect on your personality) might actually had some basis in truth, at least back in the times when people's diet was very much tied to the seasons.
<snip>
-BP

Interesting stuff.  It still doesn't change the fact that astrology is a bunch of superstitious bushwa, but interesting nonetheless.
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Christmas Eve with liberals (not political)
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2008, 09:05:24 AM »
Man, the talk on Christmas Eve was less rancorous than this. ;)

Nematocyst, thanks for the little tidbit of history of astrology. I'll be sure to use Ptolemy and Copernicus the next time the subject comes up at a family gathering.


BrokenPaw

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Re: Christmas Eve with liberals (not political)
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2008, 10:23:58 AM »
Interesting stuff.  It still doesn't change the fact that astrology is a bunch of superstitious bushwa, but interesting nonetheless.

The point I was trying to make is that it's entirely possible that astrology had its origins in mathematically-significant statistical results (not saying it does for sure, just saying that it's not unreasonable).  At which point, that much of it would not be bushwa, for the time and place.  All of the modern your-life-calculated-to-three-decimal-places nonsense came about as astrologers competed with one another for business, or for ascendancy, or what-have-you.  I could name other belief systems similarly constructed.

How many other belief systems do we know about that started out as a relatively simple premise, that grew into a whole bunch of very precise and specific rules that are based (often pretty tenuously) upon someone's interpretation of one line in the Sacred Texts?  To the point where someone from that religion at the time would have no idea what a modern practitioner of that religion was on about?

An example that comes to mind (with apologies to Mormons) is the caffeine prohibition in their belief system.  As I recall, their scripture proscribes "hot drinks", which historically speaking, probably refers to coffee and tea, both of which contain caffeine, so the interpretation is not that the hotness of the drink is bad, but that the caffeinated nature of the drink is bad.  Thus caffeinated cold drinks are banned, and (again, if I understand correctly) hot herbal tea (which has no caffeine) may very well be allowed.  (Mormons among you, please feel free to correct me on this if I'm wrong...this is just an example that sprang to mind from my studies of LDS theology nearly 20 years ago)

For another example, take a look at all of the dozens and dozens of Christian denominations that have sprung up around varied and different interpretations of a message that is, at the core of it, very very simple: "Everyone's a sinner.  Sinners go to Hell.  In order not to go to Hell, sinners need a Savior.  That would be Me."  And yet, we have, what, probably over a hundred factions, sects, denominations, some of whom are quite rabid about the others being wrong.

Sometimes the old ways are just old: age does not grant wisdom; instead it grants the opportunity to build wisdom, and often that opportunity is squandered, and the ancient beliefs are (as you say) bushwa.  But do not discount an idea simply because it came from people who had other ideas that were foolish.  Do you think that the herbalist-witches of old knew why willowbark tea was good for minor pains?  No, they did not.  But they knew it worked, and so they used it, despite their erroneous beliefs as to why.  And we still use that same basic chemical for pain relief to this day.

Do not be so quick to dismiss the foundational idea of something, simply because later generations have built a house of cards upon it.

-BP
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

Tallpine

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Re: Christmas Eve with liberals (not political)
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2008, 01:18:16 PM »
I can get along with almost everybody as long as they don't crack their eggs on the wrong end  :laugh:
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Nematocyst

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Re: Christmas Eve with liberals (not political)
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2008, 05:28:20 PM »
Monkeyleg, you're very welcome.  =)

For even more "fun facts to know and tell about the rubbish that is astrology", click on that link in my first post above. It's an essay on Skeptic's Dictionary that will provide one with much fodder for hours of endless argument with astrologers.

Having said that, BrokenPaw's post above is very thoughtful. I don't wish to dismiss it. I think  there are some elements of truth in there worth considering. No time at the moment. Later after work.

Interesting discussion, folks. Good to be here.

Nem
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Iain

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Re: Christmas Eve with liberals (not political)
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2008, 06:36:24 PM »
To be very honest if I didn't have such a strong regard for you from THR I'd have been actively trying to get a ban issued over that little jibe.

I hope you are not serious.
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Bogie

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Re: Christmas Eve with liberals (not political)
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2008, 10:20:18 PM »
The problem with flat earthers is that when they're faced with an ice-covered hill, the have no clue as to what to do...
 
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mtnbkr

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Re: Christmas Eve with liberals (not political)
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2008, 10:41:42 PM »
To be very honest if I didn't have such a strong regard for you from THR I'd have been actively trying to get a ban issued over that little jibe.

Then I guess it's good you have absolutely no pull in that regard.

Chris

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Re: Christmas Eve with liberals (not political)
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2008, 11:24:20 PM »
OP: Don't frighten the flower children.
I shall not die alone, alone, but kin to all the powers,
As merry as the ancient sun and fighting like the flowers.

Balog

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Re: Christmas Eve with liberals (not political)
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2008, 11:45:10 PM »
Chris: no doubt, and I certainly wouldn't wish to give the impression that I do. Nor do I think people get banned over even a handful of offensive posts.

But if Random Guy A wanders in and one of his very first posts was something highly inflammatory about an exceedingly controversial subject....... I've gotta imagine that person would be treated more severely than an established member who loses his temper and makes a bad post.
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Christmas Eve with liberals (not political)
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2008, 12:55:19 AM »
What were you two arguing about again? I forgot what the original quarrel was about.

Nematocyst

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What was the question, again?
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2008, 02:30:45 AM »
 =D
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KD5NRH

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Re: Christmas Eve with liberals (not political)
« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2008, 03:44:28 AM »
What were you two arguing about again? I forgot what the original quarrel was about.

When they got to the little boys' room, neither of them had remembered to bring the ruler. :rolleyes:

Nematocyst

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Re: Christmas Eve with liberals (not political)
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2008, 04:27:48 AM »
Why, they don't make rulers big enough for ...

Oh, never mind.
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BryanP

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Re: Christmas Eve with liberals (not political)
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2008, 09:30:16 AM »
The point I was trying to make is that it's entirely possible that astrology had its origins in mathematically-significant statistical results (not saying it does for sure, just saying that it's not unreasonable).  At which point, that much of it would not be bushwa, for the time and place.  All of the modern your-life-calculated-to-three-decimal-places nonsense came about as astrologers competed with one another for business, or for ascendancy, or what-have-you.  I could name other belief systems similarly constructed.

....

Do not be so quick to dismiss the foundational idea of something, simply because later generations have built a house of cards upon it.

-BP

That's the problem with the internet.  You can't see when I'm kidding around a bit.  Yes, I know that there are valid foundations for some superstitious beliefs.  Doing the right thing for the wrong reason and all that. 
"Inaccurately attributed quotes are the bane of the internet" - Abraham Lincoln

French G.

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Re: Christmas Eve with liberals (not political)
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2008, 10:11:27 AM »
Quote
I wonder what the difference between Pennsylvania rednecks and Montana rednecks is Huh?

Montana rednecks, or Virginia for that matter, don't say "youse." As in: "Are youse guys going to the mall after Christmas dinner."  =D
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

Nematocyst

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Re: Christmas Eve with liberals (not political)
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2008, 03:53:09 PM »
Quote
That's the problem with the internet.  You can't see when I'm kidding around a bit.

That's why emoticons (AKA smilies) evolved. 

=) =D :lol: :cool: :angel: :laugh:

Forum choices too limited? Looking for that emoticon to express just the right emotional nuance? Go here.

Speaking of limited, why are three emoticons in this forum duplicated in the menu?  =| ,  :rolleyes: and  :lol:
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Re: Christmas Eve with liberals (not political)
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2008, 04:04:14 PM »
Montana rednecks, or Virginia for that matter, don't say "youse." As in: "Are youse guys going to the mall after Christmas dinner."  =D

yes, we virginia rednecks are much more lyrical in our speech. its "y'all fellers..."

 :cool:
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Re: Christmas Eve with liberals (not political)
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2008, 05:14:03 PM »
Speaking of limited, why are three emoticons in this forum duplicated in the menu?  =| ,  :rolleyes: and  :lol:
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