Author Topic: Arguing with people (Read 3368 times)

jefnvk · « **on:** November 03, 2005, 07:03:21 PM »

OK, I don't mind it when people present their viewpoints. It is quite refreshing to hear people's views on something, especially if they are original, or completely opposite of yours.

But why must they get so mad when you present your view, which conflicts with theirs, and back it up, and proceed to point out flaws in their arguments? If they don't want their views critiqued, why do they offer them? Why do they get mad if someone doesn't agree with them?

Sorry for the rant, just a bit aggrivated. Can't figure why people give their opinion, and expect someone with a different one to keep quite and agree.

EDIT: BTW, it is nothing that happened online. Just a real-life argument today.

LadySmith · « **Reply #1 on:** November 04, 2005, 02:43:42 AM »

I suspect it's because too many people fail to undertand or respect the simple concept of "your way is not my way." Instead they want to dictate, get emotional, or just outright attack. Some want converts instead of conversation. Others just want to hear themselves talk & get irritated when you don't follow their script. Perhaps the person you were arguing with was used to using anger to win arguments instead of rational thought?

Art Eatman · « **Reply #2 on:** November 04, 2005, 03:48:33 AM »

Many opinions are based more on feelings than on objective knowledge of fact. My generality is that the lesser the knowledge, the greater the emotional attachment to an opinion. Any disagreement is then seen as an attack on the person instead of on the idea.

I run into this mostly in firearms and environmental issues. I find myself in the position of having to explain the "true facts" to the "well meaning but ignorant" and then (sheesh!) debating the facts instead of the meaning of the facts.

Frustrating...

Art

Preacherman · « **Reply #3 on:** November 04, 2005, 04:07:09 AM »

+1 Art. In general, the less factually-based the discussion, the more heated the argument. Take religion, for example - matters of faith are precisely that, faith, and are generally not scientifically "provable" as empirical, objective reality. This doesn't stop me believing: but it does mean that what I believe cannot be presented as scientific fact, and when I discuss religion with others, I have to keep this in mind. A religious fanatic, on the other hand, will accept as a normative scientific principle of the universe that what he/she believes is truly and really factual. This is why you can't argue or discuss things with a fanatic... the search for truth ends at the doorway to their beliefs.

It's much the same with other beliefs - try to talk a hard-line left-winger out of his/her Socialist and Communist principles, and see how far you get! The same, of course, goes for the hard-line right-wingers.

"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." - Robert Heinlein.

mhdishere · « **Reply #4 on:** November 04, 2005, 04:41:58 AM »

Then there are people who just like to argue. I worked with a guy (he retired last month) who would constantly push my buttons. He and I are at opposite ends of the political spectrum, I tell him I consider Rush Limbaugh to be a bleeding heart liberal, he considers the New York Times fair and balanced and sends money to the Brady bunch. One day he told me that when he's with his friends (all of whom share his political views) he'll say things he doesn't even believe just to get an argument going. From that point on I remained calm, realizing he wasn't trying to debate the issues, he just wanted an argument.

I view (verbal) arguing in much the same manner as physical fighting, I'll do it if I need to but would prefer not to have to. And if you force me into an argument I'm going to cut you off at the knees, stomp on your head, kick in your ribs, and urinate on what's left of you (figuratively speaking of course).

garrettwc · « **Reply #5 on:** November 04, 2005, 05:15:00 AM »

Art has it right. I think most of our congress critters represent this theory.

K Frame · « **Reply #6 on:** November 04, 2005, 05:42:02 AM »

You're wrong. YOU'RE WRONG, DAMMIT!

I CHALLENGE YOU TO A DUEL!

charby · « **Reply #7 on:** November 04, 2005, 06:28:06 AM »

I think Lady Smith nailed it, I work at a Univeristy and yes the sterotypes are true, I think the left thinking folks are looking for converts.

I also like Mike's way of thinking too. So many idiots and not enought bullets.

Charby

jefnvk · « **Reply #8 on:** November 04, 2005, 06:38:13 AM »

Quote

I CHALLENGE YOU TO A DUEL!

OK, spitwads at 50 paces Tongue

Actually, all three arguments happened to be gov't provided healthcare/schooling. Somehow, in two days I managed to get into that argument twice, which ended in the other party storming off after a while.

Like I said, just trying to comprehend it.

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle · « **Reply #9 on:** November 04, 2005, 07:13:15 AM »

Quote from: mhdishere

I view (verbal) arguing in much the same manner as physical fighting, I'll do it if I need to but would prefer not to have to. And if you force me into an argument I'm going to cut you off at the knees, stomp on your head, kick in your ribs, and urinate on what's left of you (figuratively speaking of course).

I tend to be the same way; avoiding an argument until it's totally necessary, then going for the jugular.

I will admit, though, that I've learned to engage in more polite and civil forms of debate and discussion by being a member of this and other forums. It doesn't HAVE to be a pit fight.

SpookyPistolero · « **Reply #10 on:** November 04, 2005, 08:19:56 AM »

I guess I might be a bit in the middle of the road on this one. I like discussions and healthy debate a lot. I am usually not married to an idea and so I don't argue them to the death. But I like to discuss issues with people in a tactful way that lets them save face if it comes to it. Something humble that doesn't back them into a corner or that let's them think they found a conclusion on their own. I get irritated when people are horribly voracious about a topic such that it seems almost like an attack. I hate this. I will either 'take out their knees' as said or just walk away. Usually the latter.

K Frame · « **Reply #11 on:** November 04, 2005, 08:32:13 AM »

"I also like Mike's way of thinking too. So many idiots and not enought bullets."

At one of my old jobs a lot of my coworkers knew that I had worked for NRA and that I also own, and shoot, firearms.

One made the comment "I hope you don't shoot us!"

I stopped her dead in her tracks with "I've not met anyone here yet on whom it would be worth expending the 25 cent cost of the cartridge."

She never talked much to me after that.

Zundfolge · « **Reply #12 on:** November 04, 2005, 08:43:11 AM »

SteveS · « **Reply #13 on:** November 04, 2005, 10:04:47 AM »

Quote from: SpookyPistolero

I guess I might be a bit in the middle of the road on this one. I like discussions and healthy debate a lot. I am usually not married to an idea and so I don't argue them to the death. But I like to discuss issues with people in a tactful way that lets them save face if it comes to it. Something humble that doesn't back them into a corner or that let's them think they found a conclusion on their own. I get irritated when people are horribly voracious about a topic such that it seems almost like an attack. I hate this. I will either 'take out their knees' as said or just walk away. Usually the latter.

Good point. Some people present their views, back them up with facts, and proceed to throw in nasty names and ad hominem attacks. A truly skilled "debater" steers the other person to their position, making them seem like they came up with it on their own.

Zundfolge, that picture is so cruel...but so funny.

SalukiFan · « **Reply #14 on:** November 04, 2005, 10:59:00 AM »

Quote from: jefnvk

But why must they get so mad when you present your view, which conflicts with theirs, and back it up, and proceed to point out flaws in their arguments? If they don't want their views critiqued, why do they offer them?

Well, I would have to say that defensiveness is really, really common. You may think that you have something all figured out when someone comes along and points out a flaw in your logic.

It's embarassing and a lot of times people react by lashing out instead of stepping back and saying, "Really? I hadn't thought of it that way," or "I didn't know that."

mhdishere · « **Reply #15 on:** November 04, 2005, 11:37:37 AM »

Mike,
I got a similar comment from a former manager once, that I might get mad at her and shoot her. I told her if I ever really got mad at her it would give me more personal satisfaction to strangle her to death with my bare hands than to shoot her.

I'm not sure she ever figured out if I was joking or not.

Guest · « **Reply #16 on:** November 04, 2005, 12:31:07 PM »

Quote from: jefnvk

..But why must they get so mad when you present your view, which conflicts with theirs, and back it up, and proceed to point out flaws in their arguments? If they don't want their views critiqued, why do they offer them? Why do they get mad if someone doesn't agree with them?....

Some people have never had their basic worldview challenged. For instance, they might be able to calmly discuss whether taxes should be raised 1% or lowered by that amount, but have never heard "Taxation is theft!".

When you finally get to their core, basic values and point out uncomfortable chinks to them, they are unwilling to go further. That's when the emotions take over.

K Frame · « **Reply #17 on:** November 04, 2005, 03:38:49 PM »

"I'm not sure she ever figured out if I was joking or not."

Keep'em guessing. It's the BEST way... Cheesy

I remember a few years ago I was eating lunch and two managers in my company sat down with me. I was good friends with one, and the other, a female, I knew well, but not great.

George asked me what I had done over the weekend (it was a Monday) and I said "I bought a gun."

Karen's eyes got REALLY big and I swear she paled a little bit...

She thought I said that I had BROUGHT a gun, as in to work.

Sigh...

Standing Wolf · « **Reply #18 on:** November 04, 2005, 04:10:06 PM »

One of the reasons I'm a Libertarian is that I enjoy listening to people who argue very well.

Guest · « **Reply #19 on:** November 04, 2005, 04:29:12 PM »

Very Good Points by all.

Add:

-Some folks just want to hear themselves talk.
-Some are looking for validation for their position
-Others just want to see if they can change folks, control folks, or agtitate folks.
-There are those just seeking attention - of any kind.

My best 'avoidance' of a religious agrument back when we had had some Moonies confronting folks in parking lots...
I was with a buddy of mine at the mall, here comes two representatives between two cars making a beeline...they asked their question..."what faith are you?'. I knew no matter what I replied, they had a programmed answer.

"I'm anti-athesist" I replied.

We continued on to my car, the two Moonies, staring at each other - stumped.

My buddy asked "where'd the hell you come up with that?"

I replied " I figured they had a programmed reply to any religion , agnostic, or atheist reply I gave - I just made that up on the fly".

I dunno , sometimes a smart-ass answer and walking off works - did that day, has since, hopefully will continue to.
Wink

jefnvk · « **Reply #20 on:** November 04, 2005, 08:54:33 PM »

Good thing is, neither person is pissed at me, but neither is really arguing the issue anymore, either. Mabe that is good, maybe I did convince them, or maybe they just don;t want to bring it up, which is also fine with me.

And it was debating/discussing more than arguing, although the arguing flared up now and then. Both sides kept it civil, we are friends.

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Author Topic: Arguing with people (Read 3368 times)

Felonious Monk/Fignozzle

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